ia4@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu (Imran Anwar) (01/17/90)
I know of only one place where ST s/ware rentals are possible...... does anyone have a list of more places? Please email and oblige Imran
rjd@cs.brown.edu (Rob Demillo) (01/17/90)
In article <2625@cunixc.cc.columbia.edu> ia4@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu (Imran Anwar) writes: >I know of only one place where ST s/ware rentals are possible...... >does anyone have a list of more places? >Please email and oblige > Yeah. And with any luck they'll *all* go out of business. Piracy has almost killed Atari...that's all that's needed is a thinly veiled software "rental" place. - Rob DeMillo | Internet: rjd@brown.cs.edu Brown University | BITnet: DEMILLO%BRNPSG.SPAN@STAR.STANFORD.EDU Planetary Science Group | Reality: 401-273-0804 (home) "I say you *are* the Messiah, Lord! And I ought to know, I've followed a few!"
gl8f@astsun8.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (01/17/90)
In article <25723@brunix.UUCP> rjd@cs.brown.edu (Rob Demillo) writes: >In article <2625@cunixc.cc.columbia.edu> ia4@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu (Imran Anwar) writes: >>I know of only one place where ST s/ware rentals are possible...... >>does anyone have a list of more places? >>Please email and oblige > >Yeah. And with any luck they'll *all* go out of business. Piracy >has almost killed Atari...that's all that's needed is a thinly >veiled software "rental" place. Needless to say, it's extremely rude to call some people pirates because they rent software. Libraries rent books, video stores rent movies. Video stores rent Nintendo carts, which contain software. In short -- piracy is an issue you deal with by educating users, not by insulting legitimate businesses. Btw, gcc is not a C++ compiler. g++ is a C++ compiler. gcc's feature is that it's ANSI C. Greg Lindahl gl8f@virginia.edu Astrophysicists for Choice.
johns@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Conan the Barbarian) (01/19/90)
In article <1990Jan17.065533.601@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gl8f@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes: >In article <25723@brunix.UUCP> rjd@cs.brown.edu (Rob Demillo) writes: >> >>Yeah. And with any luck they'll *all* go out of business. Piracy >>has almost killed Atari...that's all that's needed is a thinly >>veiled software "rental" place. > >Needless to say, it's extremely rude to call some people pirates >because they rent software. Libraries rent books, video stores rent >movies. Video stores rent Nintendo carts, which contain software. > I think Mr. Demillo has a very valid point there. Besides the 3 Atari dealers we have in this city of approx. 300K, we have a few MIDI dealers, and another dealer who does not carry the Atari line anymore. It is known as a Computer/Electronics/Software rental store. I think that is their term for "We pirate while you wait." I've been there and seen first hand how people who work there make copies of software either for themselves or friends. Thankfully, Atari refused his request to become a dealer, and his stock of ST software is abysmally small. >In short -- piracy is an issue you deal with by educating users, not >by insulting legitimate businesses. > This works on some people, and on some it doesn't. The people that pirate in spite of anything you tell them are beyond hope. I don't know how to convince them to stop. >[...] >Greg Lindahl >gl8f@virginia.edu Astrophysicists for Choice. -- "After all is said and done, John Schmitt a lot more is said than done." johns@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca Don't blame anybody for what I say. SCHMITTJ@SCIvax.mcmaster.ca
gl8f@astsun9.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (02/01/90)
In article <34467@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu> stowe@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (stowe) writes: #In article <NVXS1^@rpi.edu> kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) writes: # >In <26747@brunix.UUCP> rjd@cs.brown.edu (Rob Demillo) writes: # > # >> A software pirate can literally mass produce 100's of copies # >> of software an hour. # >I can see perhaps even 50 copies in an hour, but "100's"? Baloney. #Times how many machines? Maple comes with a 403 page reference manual and a 115 page tutorial. I'd be hard-pressed to copy this quickly. It also comes with support, which no pirate can copy. Maple is good software, and costs good money for a reason. It also has a little built-in anti-pirate protection because of the good manuals. Can we stop beating this dead horse already? It was boring a year ago when we had an inconclusive discussion about it. Greg Lindahl gl8f@virginia.edu Astrophysicists for Choice.
rjd@cs.brown.edu (Rob Demillo) (02/07/90)
In article <1574@cs.rit.edu> ajy2208%ritcv@cs.rit.edu writes: >In article <27273@brunix.UUCP> rjd@cs.brown.edu (Rob Demillo) writes: >> ...my personal theory is that the Atari >> community sprung (somewhat) out of the old >> 8 bit Atari community, where game theft was >> rampant. Perhaps that philosophy held on into >> the ST community. > >How can you say this? I think ST owners buy a larger share of >software than users of ANY other computer. I know quite a number of >ST owners, and EVERY ONE OF THEM has bought a lot of software, >myself included! I know, all of the ST owners (well, most) that I know are also of good character, and they purchase what they use. The reason I can say this is because I have attended ST User Group meetings in three different communities. In all three cases, the scene is entirely the same: a brief meeting is held, some software is demoed, then what can only be described as an orgy of software piracy begins. Its mallicious, its organized, and its massive. There is usually two or three double disked STs set up, with an operator at each. Club members bring their own diskettes, and they are free to choose from a menu that not only includes public domain and shareware, but also commercial copies of Lattice C, Word Perfect, Games (there are copy protection buster programs available for all to use), spredsheets, business software, etc etc etc... I have *never* seen anything like it. When I brought it up to those present, the attitude was pretty similar to what I've seen on this net: either alot of snickering "why shouldn't we?" to "Hey, we have to test this tuff out before we buy it, don't we?" Quite literally 100's of copies of commercial software left the premises on those evenings. I have been to IBM and Amiga user gorup meetings, and I have *never* seen that type of blatant theft. Sure, there were some mumbled exchanges of unlabeled disks between people, but nothing on the scale or magnitude that I have seen at Atari meetings. The only Atari meetings where I have not seen that activity are meetings conducted by the BCS is Boston. >I refuse to believe that ST owners pirate worse than their IBM/Mac/Amiga >counterparts. > I not only believe it, but I've seen it. >>(Sorry to all those who think this thread doesn't belong on this >> group, but I believe it does - and I think its an important issue.) > =================================== >So do I. > Thanks Albert...a positive voice is good to hear. >_____________________________________________________________________________ > Albert Yarusso, Rochester ajy2208@ritvax.bitnet,ajy2208@ultb.isc.rit.edu - Rob DeMillo | Internet: rjd@brown.cs.edu Brown University | BITnet: DEMILLO%BRNPSG.SPAN@STAR.STANFORD.EDU Planetary Science Group | Reality: 401-273-0804 (home) "I say you *are* the Messiah, Lord! And I ought to know, I've followed a few!"
covertr@force.UUCP (Richard E. Covert) (02/08/90)
In article <28201@brunix.UUCP>, rjd@cs.brown.edu (Rob Demillo) writes: > > The reason I can say this is because I have attended ST User Group > meetings in three different communities. In all three cases, the > scene is entirely the same: a brief meeting is held, some software > is demoed, then what can only be described as an orgy of software > piracy begins. Its mallicious, its organized, and its massive. > There is usually two or three double disked STs set up, with an > operator at each. Club members bring their own diskettes, and they > are free to choose from a menu that not only includes public domain > and shareware, but also commercial copies of Lattice C, Word Perfect, > Games (there are copy protection buster programs available for all to > use), spredsheets, business software, etc etc etc... ^^^^^^^^^^^ spreadsheets?? <grin> > > I have *never* seen anything like it. When I brought it up to those > present, the attitude was pretty similar to what I've seen on this > net: either alot of snickering "why shouldn't we?" to "Hey, we have to > test this tuff out before we buy it, don't we?" Quite literally > 100's of copies of commercial software left the premises on those > evenings. > > I have been to IBM and Amiga user gorup meetings, and I have > *never* seen that type of blatant theft. Sure, there were some > mumbled exchanges of unlabeled disks between people, but nothing > on the scale or magnitude that I have seen at Atari meetings. > > The only Atari meetings where I have not seen that activity are meetings > conducted by the BCS is Boston. > > > - Rob DeMillo | Internet: rjd@brown.cs.edu Well, all I can say is that WE DON'T DO THAT at PHAST!!! I repeat WE DON'T DO THAT at PHAST!!!WE DON'T DO THAT at PHAST!!! WE DON'T DO THAT at PHAST!!! WE DON'T DO THAT at PHAST!!! I have never heard of Atari clubs doing that. When I lived in Denver I attended both 8bit and ST clubs, and in neither club was Piracy allowed!!! In fact, it was never even mentioned in the Denver clubs. And I know for a fact that we don't pirate software in Phoenix. I work as a full time programmer and there is NO WAY that I would be President of a Club that allowed, or even tolerated, Piracy. I don't know how many other clubs do allow that, but you can attend any of our club meetings, which are always held on the Second Saturday of the month, and see for yourself!! In fact, I am trying to get Special Interest Groups started so that we can split up after the demos (gotta wow the folks with the latest games :-) ) and talk about favorite programs. I sent out a survey this week to all members to find out what they what in a meeting. . . . . . -- Richard E. Covert, Lead Engineer of Software Tools Group AG Communications Systems, Phoenix AZ (602) - 581-4652 TCP/IP: covertr@gtephx UUCP: {ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!zardoz!hrc | att}!gtephx!covertr
nelson@kodak.UUCP (Bruce Nelson) (02/08/90)
In article <28201@brunix.UUCP> rjd@cs.brown.edu (Rob Demillo) writes: >The reason I can say this is because I have attended ST User Group >meetings in three different communities. In all three cases, the >scene is entirely the same: a brief meeting is held, some software >is demoed, then what can only be described as an orgy of software >piracy begins. Its mallicious, its organized, and its massive. Please stop by a meeting of the Atari Computer Owners of Rochester, NY. You will see a group of dedicated Atari owners teaching newcomers how to use their machines, a groups of users talking about the latest Atari "gossip", demos of the newest programs, talks by developers, dealers, and "experts", and, NO PIRACY! Our club, as do many other groups, has a strict policy against software piracy in any form. Swapping of commercial software is prohibited at our meetings and on our bbs. You will never see an "orgy of software piracy" at an ACORN meeting. Bruce Nelson President, Atari Computer Owners of Rochester, NY
kimes@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (Kit Kimes) (02/09/90)
From article <28201@brunix.UUCP>, by rjd@cs.brown.edu (Rob Demillo): > > The reason I can say this is because I have attended ST User Group > meetings in three different communities. In all three cases, the > scene is entirely the same: a brief meeting is held, some software > is demoed, then what can only be described as an orgy of software > piracy begins. Its mallicious, its organized, and its massive. I find this very hard to believe. I belong to a Users Group (LAUG) in St. Charles, IL (west of Chicago). We are extremely anti-piracy. There are no copyrighted programs in our Library and we do not allow any to be brought to the meetings or exchanged there. I know that the policy at SCAT (another Chicago users group) is the same. I would be naive to think that no one there has these type of programs at home, but they are not brought or discussed at any of our meetings. I just can't imagine there are very many Atari User Groups that condone such activity. Are you sure that you aren't a MS-DOSer trying to spread rumors? Kit Kimes AT&T Bell Labs Naperville, IL ...!att!iwtsa!kimes
ia4@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu (Imran Anwar) (02/09/90)
In article <48822c87.14a1f@force.UUCP> covertr@force.UUCP (Richard E. Covert) writes: >In article <28201@brunix.UUCP>, rjd@cs.brown.edu (Rob Demillo) writes: >> >> The reason I can say this is because I have attended ST User Group stuff deleted >> - Rob DeMillo | Internet: rjd@brown.cs.edu > >Well, all I can say is that WE DON'T DO THAT at PHAST!!! stuff deleted > Richard E. Covert, Lead Engineer of Software Tools Group I have had the pleasure of attending Atari club meetings in a couple of cities including the TAF (Toronto Atari Federation ...or similar name) in 1987 and agree with Richard. We all know piracy exists in the ST community but even if Rob saw the kind of thing he mentions in one place it does not mean ALL ST clubs are meant for this...I have no ulterior mtive in saying this as I do not even belong to any CLub or Association..... Imran Anwar Columbia Business School ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | | Wish all students here would go for the ST...they can run Lotus123 for assignmenmts under a PC emulator, write their reports on Macwrite with GCR AND still have the power of the ST for MIDI and games.... :-)
david.schreiber@canremote.uucp (DAVID SCHREIBER) (02/09/90)
I have had the oppostie experience with ST user groups over the past 3-4 years here in Toronto. At monthly meetings there is absolutely NO open piracy, no open discussion. There are public denunciations, etc. This is not to say that there is no problem, of course, but we have not had anything like what you describe. David Schreiber, Secretary, Toronto Atari Federation (membership 450) --- * Via ProDoor 3.1R
randyh@hpsad.HP.COM (Randy Hosler) (02/10/90)
I used to belong to a users group in this area (Santa Rosa, CA) and there was no piracy allowed there either. However, drifting a little further, I have some questions about UGs. Specifically, how much does your UG charge for PD disks? This group would charge $5 for members and $10 for non-members to buy a PD disk. Is this typical? Mail order disks can cost this much. I would think that UGs would benifit the user a little more as far as PD prices are concerned. ---- Randy Hosler
dlh@raider.MFEE.TN.US (Dana L. Holt) (02/10/90)
I live in Murfreesboro, Tn. We have an Atari user group in Knoxville that doesn't do anything other than help new users,sell PD disks,provide latest Atari info,etc... You can't judge all Atari groups bad because you saw one groupcopying software!!! Come on! What's the matter with you?? Dana Holt dlh@raider.mfee.tn.us ** DISCLAIMER????????????????????I DON'T WORK FOR ANYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!**
ia4@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu (Imran Anwar) (02/11/90)
I did not know such a long debate would ensue from my simple inquiry about list of s/ware rental places. So guys, does anyone have the list? :-)
oplinger@control.crd.ge.com (B. S. Oplinger) (02/13/90)
I used to live in Allentown, PA about 5 years ago when the ST first came out. Our local club (ABE's ACES) did not condone pirating. I moved to Philly area and found the Philly Area Comp. Society (PACS) which had an Atari ST Sig after about 2 years of looking. Although some of the members pirated software, no trading was done at club meetings. In the meantime, I had visited 3 clubs in the south jersey (Philly suburb really) area. Each had a club meeting which consisted of a demo of a pirated piece of software. "Uh I'm not really sure how to ...., as I don't have any docs for this." was a real common expression heard during those demos. After this demo, a flurry of disk coppying activity occured around the 2 or 3 machines present. I only attended 1-2 meetings at each. When I remarked on the number of people copying software, I was told the same thing. "It doen't make a difference, no-one will be hurt." Well, I can tell you that the 2 stores which sold Atari software (1 of which had the machines also) are no longer in business. However the store on the other side of the river in Philly moved on to sell megas and lots of Atari h/w (at least until Atari started their latest round of stupid dealer disinsentive programs, but that's another story.) brian oplinger@crd.ge.com <#include standard.disclaimer>