dsmall@well.UUCP (David Small) (02/06/90)
Okay --
I don't want to generate any controversy re: the GEnie uplink thing,
which was admittedly not handled well last time around.
It looks like there's an okay on the GEnie end for a gateway to
GEnie with the following:
1) 2-way note throughput. (see below for more).
2) email
3) *No* copyright hassles (see below)
The last such uplink, as you'll recall, was 1-way, no email, and while
GEnie was accused of copyright hassles, it really wasn't that way.
Okay, on #1:
2-way notes. Yes, this can be done. However, there will need to be
experimentation done, because GEnie's notes paradigm is different than
USENET. Also, GEnie users will require some training in the customs of USENET;
for instance, quoting from previous notes when making comments,
signature lines -- all the stuff you really only learn by *reading notes*,
and by reading the ever-helpful How To Be On USENET materials that come with
the news package.
We have one or two dim flickers of ideas for how to resolve the notes
paradigm problem (suggestions are welcome).
We also want to make certain we do not flood USENET with low-signal
high-noise notes. Hence, we won't be hooking straight to the Atari ST RT
on GEnie, where the note volume would overwhelm USENET. Instead, it would be
to an experimental, controlled, limited-access area, where people who don't
understand USENET customs & protocol don't get their notes posted here.
(Probably at the start, the best way, especially for testing purposes, would
be to grant access to people who are already on USENET on the GEnie end.)
On the GEnie end, notes are concentrated by broad subjects
("TT", "Hard Disks", etc) into "topics", rather than by individual header;
otherwise, we'd end up overwhelming the GEnie system software by starting
too many 1-3 reply topics.
Again, suggestions are welcome.
#2: Email. My mailer is not bright enough to handle nearly anything.
This will have to be put off for a bit until I get a better one running.
I mean, it would be nice if Internet addresses worked.. :-)
#3: Copyright hassles. Much was made of little in the anthology
copyright. I talked with GEnie about it. Their only concern is that local
BBS's don't mass-download GEnie notes, lifted directly from GEnie, with
their "value added". However, they know enough about USENET to know that
the news software, by its very nature, makes *every* news site form the
same "compilation" of notes in the /usr/spool/news/comp/sys/atari/st
subdirectory -- so there's little point to GEnie claiming any copyright.
I realize there are people out there that distrust GEnie or anything
corporate, so I can probably get a formal statement saying yes, we'll blow
off the copyright for USENET stuff.
What I propose is a TRIAL PERIOD of 30 days for a 2-way link.
If at the end of 30 days it didn't work, I'll say oh well, and go do something
else. This is an experimental project anyway and may not work, and it may
not be possible to really resolve the differences in note paradigm schemes
between USENET and GEnie, on a practical, day to day level. In addition,
it may not be possible for GEnie's editor as a practical matter to do things
like quote from a previous article and so forth.
As usual, I'll filter anyone who asks out of the feed, including
those who've already asked.
The approved method seems to be a vote; would you please send me
your thoughts at dsmall@well.sf.ca.us, or well!dsmall, or however the
note got to you. If even a fair minority is opposed, I'll drop it. I'm
proposing this only because many people were careful to say that their only
real objection to the previous link was its 1-way nature.
There's no rush, by the way. We're busy with 2.5, getting the final
version through beta test (sheesh, 832K is a bitch), writing newsletters,
and the ever-popular packing & shipping tape.
Now, I'm asking *here*, where it'll happen, *before* asking in the
news.* areas, which I'll go to *only* if you local people, who it'll affect,
okay it. THIS IS JUST TO SEE IF I SHOULD PURSUE IT FARTHER. IT DOESN'T MEAN
I'LL TURN IT ON TOMORROW; IT AIN'T EVEN WRITTEN!
I do think there is a substantial advantage in GEnie being able to
access the more international group that USENET has, for both networks.
ST activity in Germany is the envy on the US. Similarly, I get many questions
(34 tonight) via email from users in Europe regarding Spectre, hard disks,
and other things; I'm sure other U.S. companies would like to be able to
communicate with their international users. And finally, while GEnie is looked
down on by some, it's the home of some important stuff -- Jim Allen's
discussion of the 6-chip TOS 1.4 EPROM hassle with SGS 373's, which anyone
with a Mega and that TOS ought to know about; up to date discussions of
PC-Ditto II, which have barely made it here (Bill's working on a software
fix for the problems); the collapse of the large distributor CSS; T-16
accelerator support, and lots of other stuff. It seems to me that it never
hurts to have access to *more* information; comp.sys.atari.st hardly
overwhelms my ability to read it. (A working balance that doesn't drown
USENET in GEnie notes is of course required; at first, I'll hand enforce it,
and anyway the software will need testing. I'll try to avoid any bad postings
by checking them out before allowing UUCICO to send them on their way.)
I realize that this was a very emotional topic a while ago. However,
it was made very clear to me that what people objected to was the 1-way link;
a 2-way link was frequently mentioned as "just fine", much as Portal and
The Well manage their "gateways" (although the Well is just "rn" to me.)
Anyway, what do you think? Would you mind a 30-day trial period
under those conditions above? If, after that, you don't think it belongs,
then it can go into the bit bucket as another one that didn't work.
I need to do some experimenting on how to link the paradigms effectively, but
I won't start until people say it's alright.
Anywho, I've cleaned out my mailbox, and will be checking back
periodically. If anyone really cares, someone else can tally votes, but look,
I'm not going to go to the effort of bringing up a link if it isn't wanted.
Thanks for your time; long note, huh?
-- Dave Small / Gadgets by Small, Inc.
?
p.s. I'd appreciate it if we could go easy on discussing this publicly
until there's been a bit of time for it to propogate and for email to
come in. If there's a negative response, there's no point in discussing it
anyway, is there?covertr@force.UUCP (Richard E. Covert) (02/07/90)
A Two way link with GEnie would be fine if it would save me some $$ on my
GEnie bill :-)
Also, is there anyway to get linked to GEnie's files?? I d/l quite a bit of
GEnie files and it gets expensive!!
But, try to link in with GBS on Genie at the very least. I am sure that ther
are plenty of USENETers who have Spectres but can't link to GEnie, and GBS has
a great RT on GEnie. It would be worth a two way link just to see the GBS GEnie
RT linked to USENET.
Just a few thoughts.
Good luck Dave
--
Richard E. Covert, Lead Engineer of Software Tools Group
AG Communications Systems, Phoenix AZ (602) - 581-4652
TCP/IP: covertr@gtephx
UUCP: {ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!zardoz!hrc | att}!gtephx!covertrBob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com (02/15/90)
Richard Covert asks: >Also, is there anyway to get linked to GEnie's files?? I d/l quite a bit of >GEnie files and it gets expensive!! Forget it, Richard... the people who run GEnie are motivated by one thing, and one thing only, and it begins with a capital $$ They are no more likely to allow you access to their files (which account for 60-75% of their revenue) for free, than they are likely to subscribe to any minimal code of ethics... Letting you read <giggle> and <tee hee> messages won't cost them anything, and might even be written off as advertising for their real product, which is the download libraries. BobR