Z4648252@SFAUSTIN.BITNET (Z4648252) (02/05/90)
There has been an increasing amount of talk about the 'phantom
typist' on the ST, in which the computer appears to slow down and
whatever characters are stored in the keyboard buffer, appear, albeit
slowly. Some programs which have keyboard commands, such as WordPerfect
can have work saved when you see this happen by pressing the save file
command, typically <S>. It may occur a minute later (!!!! grrr) but it
will occur.
This was reported on GEnie back in 1987, denied by Neil Harris and
questioned by John Towns. Well, no doubt, the phantom typist is so
incredibly difficult to duplicate. I was able to get it to appear
regularly in Flash only to find that WordPerfect and WordWriter could
do it also after I bought those packages.
Ok, this is an old bug or design flaw. Denial of it won't make it
go away. Neither will bashing Atari or Atari's engineers. What is
needed is for everyone who encounters it to immediately (!!!) write down
what was done to cause the phantom to show and post what happened. Isolation
is the problem on this phantom, not scapegoating.
Several reports might allow Ken, John, or Allen to zero in better on
the theory of how the Phantom Typist shows.
I've two areas of question about the subject. The first one is the
ST keyboard itself. Certain keyboard combinations will trigger a function
key. Very obnoxious especially when it is 3:00 am and one begins fat-fingering
keys. YAWN
The second one is with Spectre GCR. I have had (twice, but in a year
time frame) the Phantom Typist to show in Spectre GCR. Behavior is
identical to his showing up in the ST, i.e., characters stored in the
keyboard buffer appear very slowly, including keyboard commands.
Hope this helps (???!!!)
Larry Rymal: |East Texas Atari 68NNNers| <Z4648252@SFAUSTIN.BITNET>alex@athertn.Atherton.COM (Alex Leavens) (02/06/90)
Regarding the phantom typist and hunting it down... The TSR Newbell.prg (which replaces the bell on the Atari with digitized sound playback) seems to make this bug happen fairly frequently; all you need to do is pop up the 'About GEM' dialog box from the desktop, click on anywhere _but_ the OK button, and wait for the sound to stop playing. About 1 in 4 times, you'll get multiple playbacks of the sound, followed by a whole series of keyclicks (the phantom typist!). As soon as you press a key, the typing stops. Since Newbell uses the timer A vector, might something be going on there? -- |-------------------------------------------------------------------------| |--alex | alex@Atherton.COM | Caution! Falling Opinions, next 6 miles | | "Ha! That's it! Hold it right there!.....(Pronoun trouble)!" | |-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
beroll@ecs.umass.edu (02/06/90)
I too have had the problem of the Phantom Typest. I've has my ST for three years now, and this problem didn't show up until last month. I was running WordWriter St (From Timeworks) and at first I thought the keyboard locked up on me, but then everything I typed and commands I issued were delayed for about a minute. I was still able to save my work, but it took a long while. I wasn't doing anything different from my usual setup. I don't know why it would just start happening. Please post any solutions or remedies. David Beroll bitnet BEROLL@UMAECS.bitnet University of Massachusetts at Amherst Student of the School of Engineering
warningm@prism.cs.orst.edu (MICHAEL WARNING) (02/06/90)
In article <900204.10484196.021631@SFA.CP6> Z4648252@SFAUSTIN.BITNET (Z4648252) writes: > > There has been an increasing amount of talk about the 'phantom >typist' on the ST, in which the computer appears to slow down and >whatever characters are stored in the keyboard buffer, appear, albeit >slowly. Some programs which have keyboard commands, such as WordPerfect >can have work saved when you see this happen by pressing the save file >command, typically <S>. It may occur a minute later (!!!! grrr) but it >will occur. > [...] I had a similiar problem on my Mega... The only difference was that the characters were appearing <very> quickly in the keyboard buffer. The fix was to open the keyboard and put some shielding between the boards in there, apparently some leads were touching or something. I could also (sometimes) fix it by unplugging the keyboard for a second and replugging it. I'm not sure if this is the same problem that your encountering, but it may be similiar... Mike Warning warningm@prism.cs.orst.edu
art@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Art Mulder) (02/06/90)
In article <900204.10484196.021631@SFA.CP6> Z4648252@SFAUSTIN.BITNET (Z4648252) writes: > > There has been an increasing amount of talk about the 'phantom >typist' on the ST, in which the computer appears to slow down and >whatever characters are stored in the keyboard buffer, appear, albeit >slowly. ... <stuff deleted> What is >needed is for everyone who encounters it to immediately (!!!) write down >what was done to cause the phantom to show and post what happened. ... > <stuff deleted> >Larry Rymal: |East Texas Atari 68NNNers| <Z4648252@SFAUSTIN.BITNET> System Configuration: Mega 2 (unmodified- has blitter) Mono monitor. It has happened to me on the order of twice a year, allways allways allways in WordWriter ST. Everything slooooooows down - I have usually been able to get it to save. I don't recall anything distinctive, I'll make note of details next time it occurs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Art Mulder, art@maccs.DCSS.mcmaster.ca ( <- best), art@maccs.uucp, ...neat.ai.toronto.edu!maccs!art uwocc1gate%"art@maccs.uucp"
cr1@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Christopher Roth) (02/06/90)
I have experienced the Phantom Typist in Wordwriter ST....I will be typing along at a pretty good clip and it will occur. I use WordWriter ST with Turbo ST and DC Format accessories, that's it. I haven't tried it without these accessories, but I bet it does occur still. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= * Christoper Roth * "Machines have no * InterNet : cr1@beach.cis.ufl.edu * Conscience..." =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Post No Bills-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
bright@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Bob Bright) (02/09/90)
In article <17814@laurel.athertn.Atherton.COM> alex@Atherton.COM (Alex Leavens) writes: >Regarding the phantom typist and hunting it down... > >The TSR Newbell.prg (which replaces the bell on the Atari with >digitized sound playback) seems to make this bug happen fairly >frequently; all you need to do is pop up the 'About GEM' dialog >box from the desktop, click on anywhere _but_ the OK button, and >wait for the sound to stop playing. About 1 in 4 times, you'll >get multiple playbacks of the sound, followed by a whole series >of keyclicks (the phantom typist!). As soon as you press a key, >the typing stops. What you describe is _not_ the infamous "phantom typist"; it is rather the well-documented problem of the machine spewing out an infinite series of escape characters until a key is pressed. The latter problem is generally harmless enough (unless, that is, your application does something quirky with escapes); if memory serves, the experts attribute the behaviour in question to applications spending too long in interrupts. You can tell that your machine is possessed by the real phantom typist when you're typing merrily away and suddenly the machine slows down dramatically, or appears to lock up altogether. If you stare at the screen long enough, the characters which you typed when the machine began to slow down will eventually be read from the keyboard buffer, one by one, at an abominably slow rate (ranging from numbers of seconds to perhaps minutes). If you're very lucky, you can spend the next five minutes inputing the keystrokes to save your document (but see below), and then reboot to get rid of the phantom; but if he's managed to get a sufficiently firm grasp on the machine, it will probably just lock up or bomb completely. Note that word processors seem to be the phantom's favorite target, though some users have reported that he sometimes gnaws on Flash; perhaps any keyboard-intensive application is a candidate. The problem is definitely not limited to any one company's applications; Word Writer, Word Perfect, 1st Word+, and Flash users have all been bitten at one time or another. If (as kbad recently suggested) the phantom is due to bad programming practice rather than a bug in TOS, then a lot of major developers are breaking the same rule or rules, and it would sure make everyone's lives a lot easier if we could isolate them. One thing I haven't seen mentioned in previous discussions of the phantom is that the slowdown is connected to mouse movement. (I posted concerning this a few days ago, but I'm not sure the posting made it out.) Next time the phantom strikes, try moving the mouse slightly after each keypress. Here's the typical scenario when the phantom strikes me in Word Perfect: 1. The machine slows to a crawl; keystrokes and mouseclicks take effect only seconds after a key is pushed or button clicked. 2. I hit F7 ("Exit"). Nothing happens. 3. I move the mouse slightly. "Save file?" dialogue appears instantly. 4. I respond with "y". Nothing happens. 5. I move mouse slightly. File is instantly saved and "Exit?" dialogue appears. 6. I respond with "y". Nothing happens. Etc. Maybe the fact that keystrokes take effect immediately when the mouse is moved suggests something that will help to ferret out the phantom. At the very least, moving the mouse may save you a few tense moments the next time he strikes. BBB -- Bob Bright <bright@ccu.umanitoba.ca> Dept. of Philosophy University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Man R3T 2N2 (204) 474-9680
ONM07@DMSWWU1A.BITNET (Julian Reschke) (02/09/90)
In article <17814@laurel.athertn.Atherton.COM> voder!pyramid!athertn!alex@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Alex Leavens) writes: > > The TSR Newbell.prg (which replaces the bell on the Atari with > digitized sound playback) seems to make this bug happen fairly > frequently; all you need to do is pop up the 'About GEM' dialog > box from the desktop, click on anywhere _but_ the OK button, and > wait for the sound to stop playing. About 1 in 4 times, you'll > get multiple playbacks of the sound, followed by a whole series > of keyclicks (the phantom typist!). As soon as you press a key, > the typing stops. > Some problems may arise with programs, that use Kbdvecs() to install themselves and that forget to look at the newly-documented status variable that tells wether the IKBD is busy sending a 'packet'. Changing the vector in the wrong moment would disturb the BIOS definitively. BTW: I had the 'phantom typist problem' when using older versions (<3.14) of Wordplus. ___________________________ cut here _____________________________________ Julian F. Reschke, Hensenstr. 142, D-4400 Muenster, Phone: ++49 251 861241 eMail: ONM07@DMSWWU1A.BITNET, "Julian Reschke" @ MAUS MS (++49 251 80386) ____________________ correct me if I'm wrong _____________________________
dlh@raider.MFEE.TN.US (Dana L. Holt) (02/10/90)
I just want to say that i've had my ST for 1 1/2 years. (1040STf) I write alot
of source code and i've used many different editors, but i've never come across
the phontom typist. I also see that someone had it happen in Flash, i've used
that also with no problems.. I'm not sure what TOS version I have, but I will
post a followup about that. Any ideas? Why doesn't this happen to me?
Dana Holt
dlh@radier.mfee.tn.us
** DISCLAIMER????????????????? I DON'T WORK FOR ANYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*Bwsflinn@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Scott Flinn) (02/13/90)
In article <173@raider.MFEE.TN.US> dlh@raider.MFEE.TN.US (Dana L. Holt) writes: > > I just want to say that i've had my ST for 1 1/2 years. (1040STf) I write alot >of source code and i've used many different editors, but i've never come across >the phontom typist. ... >Any ideas? Why doesn't this happen to me? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I have seen the Phantom strike in both Word Writer and 1st Word Plus. In both cases, his appearance always immediately followed some keyboard confusion on my part. In particular, I would type too fast and botch it up, try to backspace quickly, botch that up, try to type the correction, generally just hitting an awful lot of keys in quick succession. It's kind of spooky the way the Phantom seems to get fed up with my incompetence and begins to do the typing himself. Unfortunately, he is a much slower typist than me. Has anybody else noticed any correlation between rapid sequences of keystrokes (involving multiple backspaces) and the appearance of the Phantom? -- Me: Scott Flinn / "If it doesn't fit, force it. Domain: wsflinn@watcgl.waterloo.edu / If it breaks, then it didn't UUCP: watmath!watcgl!wsflinn / fit anyway."
boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (02/13/90)
In article <173@raider.MFEE.TN.US>, dlh@raider.MFEE.TN.US (Dana L. Holt) writes: > > I just want to say that i've had my ST for 1 1/2 years. (1040STf) I write alot >of source code and i've used many different editors, but i've never come across >the phontom typist. I also see that someone had it happen in Flash, i've used >that also with no problems.. I'm not sure what TOS version I have, but I will >post a followup about that. Any ideas? Why doesn't this happen to me? > Dana Holt > dlh@radier.mfee.tn.us >** DISCLAIMER????????????????? I DON'T WORK FOR ANYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*B I have not experienced this either. Does one have to be a really fast typist to experience this problem? Jam up the keyboard buffer or something? -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------+------------------------------------- Mickey Boyd | "Nobody can be exactly like me. FSU Computer Science | Even I have trouble doing it." mail: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | - Tallulah Bankhead ---------------------------------+------------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
jbww@ukc.ac.uk (J.B.W.Webber) (02/13/90)
In article <13352@watcgl.waterloo.edu> wsflinn@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Scott Flinn) writes: > >Has anybody else noticed any correlation between rapid sequences of >keystrokes (involving multiple backspaces) and the appearance of the Phantom? > YES, also multiple mouse clicks as menus drop ... 1) how about a problem with EventMulti (as a first guess) (new interupt while processing first one) - comes back to previously suggested problem of spending too long in an interrupt - because of two interrupts ??? else, 2) how does keyboard uP react to interrupts when already handling one ? fairly easy to check which is at fault : put a hardware monitor (scope, monostable with LED) on the serial data to the 6850 in the ST, look for transitions when the Phantom is typing. Presumably the long delay bewteen keystrokes is caused by a counter getting out of the expected range, and then having to wrap round. i.e., suppose a buffer is being emptied (until 'low-water mark' is reached) if an equality test is missed due to interleaving interrupts, the counter will have to wrap round (via 64k/.../...) to reach equality. The cure may be as simple as changing an equality test for an `equal or less than' test. (somewhere!) probably totally wrong, just my best guess to date. cheers beau webber jbww@ukc.ac.uk
exspes@bath.ac.uk (P E Smee) (02/13/90)
In article <900204.10484196.021631@SFA.CP6> Z4648252@SFAUSTIN.BITNET (Z4648252) writes: > > There has been an increasing amount of talk about the 'phantom >typist' on the ST, in which the computer appears to slow down and >whatever characters are stored in the keyboard buffer, appear, albeit >slowly. Some programs which have keyboard commands, such as WordPerfect I heard rumours some time ago that this was a side-effect (maybe or maybe not intentional) of an early PD program called UHRLI.ACC, which when selected would put a small digital clock display inside a tiny window. I certainly have not seen the problem since I bought a cheap digital watch to hang beside the computer, and stopped using UHRLI. May just be coincidence, though. -- Paul Smee, Univ of Bristol Comp Centre, Bristol BS8 1TW, Tel +44 272 303132 Smee@bristol.ac.uk :-) (..!uunet!ukc!gdr.bath.ac.uk!exspes if you MUST)
pietrzak@guava.CES.CWRU.Edu (John Pietrzak) (02/14/90)
In article <13352@watcgl.waterloo.edu> wsflinn@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Scott Flinn) writes: > >Has anybody else noticed any correlation between rapid sequences of >keystrokes (involving multiple backspaces) and the appearance of the Phantom? > >-- >Me: Scott Flinn / "If it doesn't fit, force it. >Domain: wsflinn@watcgl.waterloo.edu / If it breaks, then it didn't >UUCP: watmath!watcgl!wsflinn / fit anyway." The only time a phenomenon like the "Phantom" ever happened to me was in a case similar to this, where I was typing in WordPerfect quickly or backspacing quickly, and the machine sort of took over. This hasn't happened to me in the last year or so; I attributed this to getting the Wordperfect 89 update and/or moving to a mega ST (both of which happened around the same time :-). If the people with mega's have experienced the phantom, could this problem be solved in software (i.e., the new WordPerfect fixes the problem)? J P
jmack@b11.ingr.com (Cery McCormick) (02/14/90)
In article <3832@harrier.ukc.ac.uk>, jbww@ukc.ac.uk (J.B.W.Webber) writes: > In article <13352@watcgl.waterloo.edu> wsflinn@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Scott Flinn) writes: > > > >Has anybody else noticed any correlation between rapid sequences of > >keystrokes (involving multiple backspaces) and the appearance of the Phantom? On the Atari, when you hit a key, the keyboard uP sends a 'make' code via interrupt to the 68000. When you let off of a key, a 'break' code is sent. If for some reason (fast typing?) the 'break' code for a key never gets sent, the 68000 will think that the key is still being pressed down. I ran into this problem when trying to disable all interrupts for a long period of time. The 'break' code got lost and so the keys just kept coming until you pressed another one. Is this a resonable explanation??
csbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Claus Brod ) (02/15/90)
exspes@bath.ac.uk (P E Smee) writes: >I heard rumours some time ago that this was a side-effect (maybe or maybe >not intentional) of an early PD program called UHRLI.ACC, which when >selected would put a small digital clock display inside a tiny window. >I certainly have not seen the problem since I bought a cheap digital >watch to hang beside the computer, and stopped using UHRLI. May just >be coincidence, though. The phantom typist effect also occurs without the assistance of UHRLI. Pure coincidence, you guessed it. Claus Brod
jvt@its.bt.co.uk (John Trickey) (02/15/90)
In article <1990Feb13.114858.5081@bath.ac.uk> exspes@bath.ac.uk (P E Smee) writes: > >I heard rumours some time ago that this was a side-effect (maybe or maybe >not intentional) of an early PD program called UHRLI.ACC, which when >selected would put a small digital clock display inside a tiny window. >I certainly have not seen the problem since I bought a cheap digital >watch to hang beside the computer, and stopped using UHRLI. May just >be coincidence, though. > I am afraid it probably was coincidence. I've just caught onto this topic which is currently of great interest to me as last night I had just this sort of problem while using TIMEWORKS. As far as I am aware, these disks have never been anywhere near any other software (except 1stWord) as I always switch off before using business progs. I do not have a hard disk so I suspect the problem is not viral. However, I am going to try to reproduce the problem and also check out the floppies. The symptoms I had were- Selection of menu items required slight mouse movement after the click to take effect. Keyboard strokes also required slight mouse movement for the character to be displayed. Any tips/help etc would be appreciated, preferably by e-mail as I cannot always guarantee to read the net within our 3 day expiry. Equipment is 1040 STe. John. -- John Trickey British Telecom IT Systems. jvt@its.bt.co.uk ..!mcsun!ukc!axion!its G4REV @ GB7SUT Voice: +44 21 333 3369
hcj@lzsc.ATT.COM (HC Johnson) (02/16/90)
Lets try to catch and fix this. Does anyone having the problem also have a memory switcher? If so, when the problem hits, if you can talk to the switcher, SAVE the memory image. Perhaps we can pass the image around and many more people can look at the problem, and if its constant with the image, maybe even get Atari interested. Howard C. Johnson ATT Bell Labs =====NEW address==== att!lzsc!hcj hcj@lzsc.att.com
barry@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Barry Lay) (02/16/90)
The issue of having to move the mouse slightly when selecting menu items reminds me of a similar problem on my machine. I have had instances when a double click on a program doesn't do anything until the mouse moves. It was suggested to me that the button up packet from the Ikbd was being lost somehow, and the GEM didn't realise that the button was indeed up until the next packet, which was a mouse move, had the button flag cleared. I get this happening in the desktop as well as in programs. Having played around with writing a program which waits for all sorts of things, I have discovered that it is not difficult at all to loose input. You also have to be very careful about how the keyboard interrupts are handled so that you don't overrun the internal queues when someone types quickly. Part of the solution is realising that you are single threading all of those inputs through evnt_multi() in a loop. Plenty of opportunity for deadly embrace or message explosion resulting in a crash. Barry
hyc@math.lsa.umich.edu (Howard Chu) (02/19/90)
In article <1305@lzsc.ATT.COM> hcj@lzsc.ATT.COM (HC Johnson) writes: >Lets try to catch and fix this. > >Does anyone having the problem also have a memory switcher? >If so, when the problem hits, if you can talk to the switcher, SAVE the >memory image. Perhaps we can pass the image around and many more people can >look at the problem, and if its constant with the image, maybe even >get Atari interested. Sounds like a good idea. I'd give it a shot, and have a decent switcher, but I haven't ever had this happen to me yet. So folks, keep on posting (or mail me) descriptions of your configuration & such. If the software is cheaply available, I'll try to duplicate the setup. -- -- Howard Chu @ University of Michigan
pegram@uvm-gen.UUCP (pegram r) (02/20/90)
> I have seen the Phantom strike in both Word Writer and 1st Word Plus. In > both cases, his appearance always immediately followed some keyboard > confusion on my part. In particular, I would type too fast and botch it > up, try to backspace quickly, botch that up, try to type the correction, > generally just hitting an awful lot of keys in quick succession. It's > kind of spooky the way the Phantom seems to get fed up with my > incompetence and begins to do the typing himself. Unfortunately, he is > a much slower typist than me. > > Has anybody else noticed any correlation between rapid sequences of > keystrokes (involving multiple backspaces) and the appearance of the Phantom? > > -- > Me: Scott Flinn / "If it doesn't fit, force it. > Domain: wsflinn@watcgl.waterloo.edu / If it breaks, then it didn't > UUCP: watmath!watcgl!wsflinn / fit anyway." Ok, time to add my 2 cents. I have never seen the Phantom typist as described on the net recently, but I *do* have problems when I have been using the mouse extensively (lots of movement for 2+ hours) in some programs - Michtron's Cards comes to mind first, but I can also lose it when reorganizing files. What happens is that the mouse and keyboard stop responding, the mouse pointer stops in mid move, then no mouse clicks or moves work and keys do not sound or show up on the screen (perhaps I don't wait long enough). A warm reboot cures the problem for a minute or so, then it shows up again. The real work around is to turn off my 1985 vintage 520 for a minute or two and then turn it on again. It looks like a hardware problem - lost communication between IKBD and motherboard. Either the IKBD is a little sick, or the reciever uart is flakey (If I knew which was at fault, I'd fix it, unless it's a firmware problem). Is this related to the Phantom typist? If not, what is the fix if known? Bob Pegram (Internet: pegram@griffin.uvm.edu) P.S. I have Word Writer version 1, if the typist affects it, I will be looking for it. Does anyone know if the bug is version dependent in the programs it affects? If so, which versions? RBPIII
mccann@rbdc (Mike McCann) (02/23/90)
hcj@lzsc.ATT.COM (HC Johnson) writes: >Lets try to catch and fix this. >Does anyone having the problem also have a memory switcher? >If so, when the problem hits, if you can talk to the switcher, SAVE the >memory image. Perhaps we can pass the image around and many more people can >look at the problem, and if its constant with the image, maybe even >get Atari interested. I've got an idea. My theory is that this may be a HARDWARE problem. Because I for one have NEVER seen it, and neither has a friend of mine. If you're getting it a lot, why not get a replacement IKBD and perhaps some other chips, and try swapping them till it quits. EOFZZ >Howard C. Johnson >ATT Bell Labs >=====NEW address==== >att!lzsc!hcj >hcj@lzsc.att.com