SOCS18@vaxb.york.ac.UK (Vision Newspapers) (02/23/90)
OK, here is the documentation for STE DMA sound output. More documentation
when I've typed it in. Screen blanker postings when I've got a copy of uuencode
... please be patient
----------------------- cut here ----------------------------------
Information from "Atari STE Developer Information Addendum"
STE DMA Sound registers
Register Access Description
FF8900 R/W 00 - sound disabled (reset state)
01 - sound enabled, disable at end of frame
11 - sound enabled, repeat forever
FF8902 R/W Frame base address (high)
FF8904 R/W Frame base address (middle)
FF8906 R/W Frame base address (low)
FF8908 RO Frame address counter (high)
FF890A RO Frame address counter (middle)
FF890C RO Frame address counter (low)
FF890E R/W Frame end address (high)
FF8910 R/W Frame end address (middle)
FF8912 R/W Frame end address (low)
FF8920 R/W Sound mode control:
xxxx xxxx m000 00rr
Where for m:
0 Stereo mode
1 Monophonic mode
Where for rr:
00 6258 Hz sample rate (reset state)
01 12517 Hz sample rate
10 25033 Hz sample rate
11 50066 Hz sample rate
FF8922 R/W MICROWIRE data register
FF8924 R/W MICROWIRE mask register
Volume/controller commands (device address is always 10)
--------------------------------------------------------
011 DDD DDD Set master volume
000 000 -80 dB
010 100 -40 dB
101 XXX 0 dB
101 xDD DDD Set left channel volume
00 000 -40 dB
01 010 -20 dB
10 1xx 0 dB
100 xDD DDD Set right channel volume
00 000 -40 dB
01 010 -20 dB
10 1xx 0 dB
010 xxD DDD Set treble
0 000 -12 dB
0 110 0 dB
1 100 +12 dB
001 xxD DDD Set bass
0 000 -12 dB
0 110 0 dB
1 100 +12 dB
000 xxx xDD Set mix
00 -12 dB
01 Mix GI sound output (ST sound chip)
10 Do not mix GI sound output
11 Reserved
----------------------------------------------------------
Sampled sound data is stored in memory as a series of bytes, which
represent a speaker displacement from -128 to +127. Zero represents the
neutral or middle speaker position. Playback is programmable at one of
four rates : 50kHz, 25kHz, 12.5kHz or 6.25kHz.
During the horizontal blanking phase, samples are fetched from memory by
the DMA sound chip, and fed into a Digital to Analogue Converter (DAC).
The output of the DAC is then filtered by a four-pole low pass filter to
a frequency equal to around 40% of the sample frequency. The signal then
passes through a two pole 16kHz low-pass filter, and fed into the
National Semiconductor Volume/Tone controller (LMC1992). The final
output is available from the RCA jacks on the back of the STE, which can
be fed into an amplifier and hence to speakers, headphones etc.
Both stereo and mono sample replay is provided, but both stereo channels
are mixed along with the ST's sound chip output for monitor speaker
output. Sound chip output can also be sent to the stereo output jacks as
well.
In stereo playback mode, the same data is regarded as words, with the
high byte of the word being the sample for the left channel, and the low
byte the right channel sample. In mono mode, each byte is output to both
left and right stereo channels, but data is still fetched one word at a
time. This means that mono sample data must always be an even number of
bytes.
Samples are grouped together in frames. Each frame can be played once,
or repeated automatically forever (until stopped). Two registers are
loaded with the frame start and end address - the end address is
actually the first byte beyond the end of the sample. Thus a 512 byte
sample with a frame start address of 101024 would have a frame end
address of 101536. Table One gives the location and description of each
DMA sound register.
Actually playing a sample is really quite straightforward. Simply
assemble the data in memory, load the start and end addresses, set
stereo or mono mode and the playback frequency. Finally, write a one to
the sound control register, and the sample will play once.
Producing continuous sound and linking frames together are the next
steps, and hardware support is provided for these processes. The DMA
sound chip produces a 'DMA sound active' signal which is connected to
the external input of MFP Timer A. This signal is a one when samples are
being played, and zero otherwise. At the end of a repeated frame, this
line goes from one to zero, and then back to one again. Thus setting
Timer A into event countdown mode allows you to generate an interrupt
when a frame has been played a set number of times.
Frame repetition is seamless - there is no time delay between the end of
a sample, and the start of it's replay, because the frame start and end
registers are double buffered. Writing to these registers actually
places the data into a holding area, and the contents of the holding
area actually go into the true registers when the chip is idle (at the
end of the frame, if one is currently being played).
Thus, if you wanted to play two consecutive frames, you would write the
start and end addresses, and set the control register to three. The
first frame will start playing, and you can immediately write the start
and end addresses of the next frame, without waiting for the first frame
to finish. There will still be an interrupt from Timer A at the end of
the first frame, and you could use that to load the address of a further
frame, and so on.
One further thing to note is that the 'DMA sound active' signal is also
exclusive-ORed with the 'monochrome monitor detect' signal, and fed into
the GPIP I7 input of the MFP. This was provided to enable interrupt
driven sound without using the last free timer of the MFP. It is a
little more difficult to use, since you will get a different signal edge
depending on whether a mono or colour monitor is attached, as well as an
interrupt at the end of every frame.
Monochrome monitors ground the 'mono detect' line, resulting in a zero
when the bit is read from the MFP. Colour monitors don't ground the line
(it is left floating), and the bit reads one. When DMA sound is active,
this situation is inverted (because of the XOR with the 'DMA sound
active line'). TOS actually looks at this bit during vertical blank
time, to see if the monitor has been changed, but TOS on any machine
with the DMA sound chip has been appropriately modified to avoid
problems.
Finally, the 'DMA sound active' line goes from active to idle (one to
zero) after the last sample has been fetched. There is a four-word FIFO
(First In, First Out) buffer inside the chip, so it will be eight sample
times (in stereo mode) before the sound actually finishes. If you do not
reload the frame registers in this time, then the join between samples
will not be seamless.
The volume and tone controller of the STE is connected via a MICROWIRE
bus interface. The idea behind this is that further devices can be added
to the bus in the future. The MICROWIRE bus is a simple three wire
serial connection, with a protocol to allow multiple devices to be
controlled individually.
In the general case, the data stream consists of N address bits,
followed by zero or more don't care bits, and then M bits of data. The
actual hardware interface in the STE consists of two 16 bit read/write
registers, one for the data to be shifted out, and a mask indicating
which bits are valid.
A one in any bit of the mask indicates that the corresponding bit in the
data register is valid. Data transmission starts as soon as the data
register has been written to, so the mask register must be loaded first.
Sending takes approximately sixteen micro-seconds, and if the data
register is read during this time, a 'snap-shot' of the data being
shifted out will be obtained. This means that if you wait for either
register to return to its original state, you can be sure that sending
has been completed.
The volume/tone controller is addressed by a two bit address field of
%10 (binary) and a nine bit data field. Table One details the commands
that can be sent to the device, and the addresses of the MICROWIRE
registers in the STEs memory map. Actually sending these commands is
easier than it looks. Simply set the mask register to $07FF, and place
the data in the lower nine bits with %10 in the upper two bits.
For example, setting the mask to $07FF and the data register to $04C4
will set the master volume to $14. That's all there is to it!
Regards,
Mathew Lodge
***********************************************************************
* c/o Dept. Computer Science * "Baldrick, fetch me a turkey _so *
* University of York * big_, you'd have thought its mother *
* Heslington * had been rodgered by an Omnibus" *
* York, UK * *
* YO1 5DD * JANET : SOCS18@uk.ac.york.vaxa *
***********************************************************************apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) (02/24/90)
Why was this article posted? That information is available to all developers, is of limited interest to anyone else, and is protected by the nondisclosure agreement between developers and Atari. It's not that this particular information is all that secret, but posting it does constitute a violation of that agreement. I don't want to be a bad guy about this, but you shouldn't just key in Atari documentation and post it. Among the reasons is that you can get it wrong, or leave out important stuff, and people will complain to us about things which are not our fault. ============================================ Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. ...ames!atari!apratt
Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com (02/26/90)
Allan Pratt asks, in reference to the posting of some technical data about the STE's sound: >Why was this article posted? That information is available to all >developers, is of limited interest to anyone else, and is protected by >the nondisclosure agreement between developers and Atari. Well, it was probably posted by someone who's tired of Atari's stupid, restrictive policies about who gets to know the details about the computers they've purchased... only the "elite" developers who've passed the intitiation rites and paid the initiation fee prescribed by Atari are worth Atari's time or effort.. (as recently noted by KenB@Atari) >I don't want to be a bad guy about this, but you shouldn't just key >in Atari documentation and post it. I don't think anyone here thinks Allan (or Ken) are "bad guys" because they follow company policy... (not even *me*... would you believe it..??) >Among the reasons is that you can get it wrong, or leave >out important stuff, and people will complain to us about things which >are not our fault. OK, "people"... go ahead and write us the most incredible sound programs we've ever seen (or heard), but if they're based on the information you read here, and not on "official" Atari documentation, don't complain to Allan, or Ken, or anyone at Atari... OK..? BobR
cr1@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Christopher Roth) (02/27/90)
In article <2052@atari.UUCP> apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) writes: >Why was this article posted? That information is available to all >developers, is of limited interest to anyone else, and is protected by >the nondisclosure agreement between developers and Atari. It's not >that this particular information is all that secret, but posting it >does constitute a violation of that agreement. I don't want to be a >bad guy about this, but you shouldn't just key in Atari documentation >and post it. Among the reasons is that you can get it wrong, or leave >out important stuff, and people will complain to us about things which >are not our fault. I am glad that SOMEONE at least is posting information about Atari machines, Atari sure isn't going to do it! It is a sad state of affairs when you have to spend a couple of hundred bucks just to get information on your machine. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= * Christoper Roth * "Machines have no * InterNet : cr1@beach.cis.ufl.edu * Conscience..." =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Post No Bills-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
kclenden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Kevin Clendenien) (02/27/90)
In article <22463@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> cr1@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Chris Roth) writes: > I am glad that SOMEONE at least is posting information about Atari >machines, Atari sure isn't going to do it! It is a sad state of >affairs when you have to spend a couple of hundred bucks just to get >information on your machine. > >-- >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >* Christoper Roth * "Machines have no >* InterNet : cr1@beach.cis.ufl.edu * Conscience..." >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Post No Bills-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Christoper, Don't be so glad. If people keep breaking their agreements with Atari not to publish this information, Atari will have no choice but to restrict the information even further. As far as having to spend a couple of hundred bucks just to get information on your machine, this is no different than IBM, Mac, or Amiga computers. When you buy IBM and DOS, do you get a technical reference manual? NO! Sure it's available, but at a cost. This same scenario is played out with both Mac and Amiga computers. You can find information on the Atari line of computers without having to become a developer. But, just as with the above mentioned computers, you will have to pay for it. I wish information was free, but we all know that just ain't so. Knowledge makes the world go round. Not just in the computer field, but in every field. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- kclenden@silver.bacs.indiana.edu Kevin Clendenien BLoomington Atari ST users group BLAST, President BLAST BBS - (812) 332-0573 FNET node #141
dnewton@carroll1.cc.edu (Dave Newton) (02/27/90)
In article <37193@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu> kclenden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Kevin Clendenien) writes:
+ As far as having to spend a couple of hundred bucks just to get
+ information on your machine, this is no different than IBM, Mac, or
+ Amiga computers. When you buy IBM and DOS, do you get a technical
+ reference manual? NO! Sure it's available, but at a cost. ThisO
+ same scenario is played out with both Mac and Amiga computers. You
+ can find information on the Atari line of computers without having
+ to become a developer. But, just as with the above mentioned
+ computers, you will have to pay for it. I wish information was
+ free, but we all know that just ain't so. Knowledge makes the world
+ go round. Not just in the computer field, but in every field.
Sure, I can get a DOS book for around $25 that details all the DOS and BIOS
calls. I can get a complete listing of the Amiga kernal for about the same
amount. I can buy the _entire_ Inside macintosh series for less than $150,
and that includes all the hardware and evangalizing, too.
Almost doesn't seem fair. Almost wish ST people could get cheap, complete
docs like _they_ can. I don't have $250 to become a developer right now. But
I have about 3-4 books that answer nearly _every_ hardware or software question
about the PC/AT line: total (list) cost: about $115.
--
David L. Newton | uunet!marque!carroll1!dnewton
(414) 524-7343 (work) | dnewton@carroll1.cc.edu
(414) 524-6809 (home) | 100 NE Ave, Waukesha WI 53186rehrauer@apollo.HP.COM (Steve Rehrauer) (02/28/90)
In article <37193@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu> kclenden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Kevin Clendenien) writes: >In article <22463@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> cr1@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Chris Roth) writes: >> I am glad that SOMEONE at least is posting information about Atari >>machines, Atari sure isn't going to do it! It is a sad state of >>affairs when you have to spend a couple of hundred bucks just to get >>information on your machine. > > Don't be so glad. If people keep breaking their agreements with >Atari not to publish this information, Atari will have no choice but >to restrict the information even further. Sorry, that line of reasoning seems retarded. I understand that Atari cannot afford to give away disks and manuals and software. And if developer information includes advance notice of corporate strategy (e.g.: notice of pending new products), then yes, Atari must ask for some restraint. They deserve it, in that case. But what was posted hardly warrants any concern from Atari -- if anything, they should be happy to see such information spread to the four winds. No one at Atari had to type it up & post it, nor pay for distribution. If it makes a feature of their product line more accessible, then what in god's name is the harm in that? So what if someone propagates the information and doesn't dot their i's correctly? It's regrettable, but hardly a tragedy or legal liability for Atari. What do you think disclaimers are for? > As far as having to spend a couple of hundred bucks just to get >information on your machine, this is no different than IBM, Mac, or >Amiga computers. When you buy IBM and DOS, do you get a technical >reference manual? NO! Neither do you have representatives of IBM, Apple or Commodore chiding people for telling others how to program their machines. Not for giving *incorrect* information, mind, just information. What was posted wasn't source code. It didn't cause a loss of whatever competitive edge Atari may have. I'm not flaming Kevin Clendenien, and Atari may have the legal rights to build fences around anything they damn well please, but it sure seems dumb in cases like this. What, are they in business to sell hardware or developer kits?? > Sure it's available, but at a cost. This >same scenario is played out with both Mac and Amiga computers. You >can find information on the Atari line of computers without having >to become a developer. But, just as with the above mentioned >computers, you will have to pay for it. I wish information was >free, but we all know that just ain't so. Knowledge makes the world >go round. Not just in the computer field, but in every field. Right, so don't defend arbitrary suppression of knowledge. -- >>"Aaiiyeeee! Death from above!"<< | Steve Rehrauer, rehrauer@apollo.hp.com "Flee, lest we be trod upon!" | The Apollo System Division of H.P.
logajan@ns.network.com (John Logajan) (02/28/90)
kclenden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Kevin Clendenien) writes: > Don't be so glad. If people keep breaking their agreements with >Atari not to publish this information, Atari will have no choice but >to restrict the information even further. This is an empty threat. It is in Atari's interest NOT to further restrict information -- so it won't happen. Atari representatives are just trying to delay the inevitable -- the word of mouth, jungle telegraph spread of useful information. They have no hope of ultimately supressing it, and they have no legal basis to supress it in most cases -- regardless what they claim. -- - John Logajan @ Network Systems; 7600 Boone Ave; Brooklyn Park, MN 55428 - logajan@ns.network.com, john@logajan.mn.org, 612-424-4888, Fax 424-2853
gl8f@astsun8.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (02/28/90)
In article <1247@carroll1.cc.edu> dnewton@carroll1.cc.edu (Dave Newton the Late) writes: > Almost doesn't seem fair. Almost wish ST people could get cheap, complete >docs like _they_ can. I don't have $250 to become a developer right now. But >I have about 3-4 books that answer nearly _every_ hardware or software question >about the PC/AT line: total (list) cost: about $115. I have 2 books which tell me just about every software question I've had about the ST. Cost? $45. Sometimes I think I live in a different universe from everyone else. If you buy a copy of Mark Williams or Laser C, you get an excellent GEM manual. You can also mail-order books about GEM if your dealer doesn't carry them. So what's the complaint? I keep on asking what people don't like about current ST books. I haven't seen (yet) a single person who has actually read the 3rd edition Abacus GEM book, or one of the other good GEM books, and thought that it had lots of errors. Although some dealers don't carry them, they are available mail-order, and you can find ads for them in magazines. Where's the beef? -- greg Greg Lindahl gl8f@virginia.edu Astrophysicists for Choice.
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (02/28/90)
In article <37193@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu>, kclenden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Kevin Clendenien) writes: > In article <22463@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> cr1@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Chris Roth) writes: >> I am glad that SOMEONE at least is posting information about Atari >>machines, Atari sure isn't going to do it! It is a sad state of >>affairs when you have to spend a couple of hundred bucks just to get >>information on your machine. > > As far as having to spend a couple of hundred bucks just to get > information on your machine, this is no different than IBM, Mac, or > Amiga computers. When you buy IBM and DOS, do you get a technical > reference manual? NO! Sure it's available, but at a cost. This > same scenario is played out with both Mac and Amiga computers. You > can find information on the Atari line of computers without having > to become a developer. But, just as with the above mentioned > computers, you will have to pay for it. I wish information was > free, but we all know that just ain't so. Knowledge makes the world > go round. Not just in the computer field, but in every field. > I am not very sure, but I think I have seen A LOT of "official" technical documents for the Macintosh freely available for example in ftp sites. This is something Atari should do, too. Jouni Alkio, Univ. of Helsinki, Finland
bds@lzaz.ATT.COM (Bruce Szablak) (02/28/90)
In article <37193@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu> kclenden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Kevin Clendenien) writes: >When you buy IBM and DOS, do you get a technical >reference manual? NO! Sure it's available, but at a cost. The PUBLISHED manuals (available at book stores) are quite sufficient. Often you can find what is needed at the public library - for free. Why does Atari make such a big stink about this? They sell you machine than they want to turn around an sell you the (expensive) manuals need to use it!
covertr@force.UUCP (Richard E. Covert) (03/01/90)
In article <37193@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu>, kclenden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Kevin Clendenien) writes: > > As far as having to spend a couple of hundred bucks just to get > information on your machine, this is no different than IBM, Mac, or > Amiga computers. When you buy IBM and DOS, do you get a technical > reference manual? NO! Sure it's available, but at a cost. This > same scenario is played out with both Mac and Amiga computers. You > can find information on the Atari line of computers without having > to become a developer. But, just as with the above mentioned > computers, you will have to pay for it. I wish information was > free, but we all know that just ain't so. Knowledge makes the world > go round. Not just in the computer field, but in every field. Horse pukey!!! Apple gives much better support and much of it is free!! Just read the mac.binaries newsgroup. Apple is always posting Macintosh Technical Notes there (which unfortunately ar BinHexed and can't be read on UNIX machines!). Just in the last couple of days Apple posted over a dozen Technical Notes covering various aspects of System 7 and Hypercard and other subjects. It makes me jealous to see some much technical information being so freely deseminated!! And Atari Corp has the nerve to criticize a magazine reporter for publishing programming notes on the STe! Geez, with Apple, you would have seen the Mac Tech Notes BEFORE a reporter had a chance to "link" them. Just goes to show you the difference between a REAL COMPUTER COMPANY and A GAMES MACHINE COMPANY!! And as far as buying Tech Books, there are hundreds of programming and technical and self-help books for the Macintosh. Except for Turner's self-published books, there hasn't been a new ST book published in the USA for 2 years!! Argh!!! And Atari Corp has the nerve to criticize a reporter for publishing notes about an Atari computer (actually the STe is better classified as a games machine!. I don't need stereo sound for DTP! ). -- Richard E. Covert, Lead Engineer of Software Tools Group AG Communications Systems, Phoenix AZ (602) - 581-4652 TCP/IP: covertr@gtephx UUCP: {ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!zardoz!hrc | att}!gtephx!covertr
covertr@force.UUCP (Richard E. Covert) (03/01/90)
In article <1990Feb27.230234.8875@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, gl8f@astsun8.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes: > I have 2 books which tell me just about every software question I've > had about the ST. Cost? $45. Sometimes I think I live in a different > universe from everyone else. If you buy a copy of Mark Williams or > Laser C, you get an excellent GEM manual. You can also mail-order > books about GEM if your dealer doesn't carry them. > > So what's the complaint? I keep on asking what people don't like about > current ST books. I haven't seen (yet) a single person who has > actually read the 3rd edition Abacus GEM book, or one of the other > good GEM books, and thought that it had lots of errors. Although some > dealers don't carry them, they are available mail-order, and you can > find ads for them in magazines. > > Where's the beef? > > -- greg > Greg Lindahl > gl8f@virginia.edu Astrophysicists for Choice. Where's the beef?? Well, for one there is the still the fact that no NEW ST book has been published in the USA for 2 years. And the fact, that even Greg admits, that you can't buy *ANY* ST book in the major bookstores. Just ask someone in a Waldenbooks store and you will either get laughed at or they will mutter something about the Atari just being a "Games Machine" Greg, are you on a paid retainer by Atari Corp?? I have *NEVER* seen you take a stand criticizing Atari Corp on *ANY* matter?? If you aren't, you should ask Atari Corp to pay you !! But, you are correct, the Mark Williams C manual is a great source of C code for GEM AES/VDI. But where do you go for info on programming for GDOS?? GDOS is one big black hole as far as Atari Corp is concerned. It isn't covered in any C book that I have. And programmers are all having problems writing GDOS printer drivers. So, where's the beef?? I would answer "In Sunnyvale!!" (At least there's lots of beef by-products emitting from Sunnyvale judging the strength of the odors!). Opinions are my own, but are for sale. Send MegaBucks. -- Richard E. Covert, Lead Engineer of Software Tools Group AG Communications Systems, Phoenix AZ (602) - 581-4652 TCP/IP: covertr@gtephx UUCP: {ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!zardoz!hrc | att}!gtephx!covertr
jeh@elmgate.UUCP (Ed Hanway) (03/02/90)
It's interesting to note that at about the same time that an Atari employee was complaining about STE documentation being posted, an employee of a competing company was posting complete specs on how to design for one of their expansion ports. There's plenty of information which should rightly be covered by non- disclosure agreements: future products, strategies, etc. But any effort to restrict the spread of the information necessary to use, program, or expand a current product is misguided. (Of course, as bad as the Atari distribution network in the US is, perhaps the STE isn't a current product yet. But I hardly think that would be an acceptable excuse.) With non-support such as this, I'm frankly surprised that there's any public domain or shareware software available for the ST. And unless the policy changes, I'd expect free software for the STE and TT to be even more rare. Ed Hanway Eastman Kodak Company ...!rochester!kodak!elmgate!jeh #include <std_disclaimer.h>
exspes@bath.ac.uk (P E Smee) (03/02/90)
In article <1990Feb27.230234.8875@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gl8f@astsun8.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes: > >So what's the complaint? I keep on asking what people don't like about >current ST books. I haven't seen (yet) a single person who has >actually read the 3rd edition Abacus GEM book, or one of the other >good GEM books, and thought that it had lots of errors. Although some Does this mean they've fixed them, then? My *own* problem (since I've moaned a bit about the lack of docs in past as well) is that I bought about half of the Abacus set when they first came out (first editions) and at that time they were riddled with errors. Not the sort of thing to encourage me to go buy another copy, even if it did say 'new edition' on it. On the other hand, if they are *really* better... My present favorites are the 3-volume Compute! series (one book each on AES, VDI, and TOS) and Katherine Peel's 'The Concise Atari ST 68000 Programmer's Reference Guide' -- but not the first edition which was lacking any form of index. -- Paul Smee, Computing Service, University of Bristol, Bristol BS8 1UD, UK Smee@bristol.ac.uk - ..!uunet!ukc!bsmail!smee - Tel +44 272 303132
rick@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Eric Ruck) (03/02/90)
Apple also has a level of support for the "casual" programmer for something like $60 for Mac hobbiests. I believe that buys telephone support and a newsletter. Eric
gl8f@astsun8.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (03/02/90)
In article <1990Mar1.183809.4264@bath.ac.uk> exspes@bath.ac.uk (P E Smee) writes: [ about the abacus gem books ] > >Does this mean they've fixed them, then? Well, my experience with the Abacus GEM book (which is better than their others, I think) is that the errors in the 1st edition fall in 3 areas: 1) obvious typoes, easy to correct, some only after a little experimentation :-( 2) errors which are copies of errors in DRI's documentation (which Atari sells in its devkit) 3) failing to explain which calls are only useful when GDOS is around. I've seen several people asking questions here who obviously tried to read the manual and were very confused on this score. As such, I've had reasonable success using it for some small GEM stuff, although I never tried anything with GDOS. I haven't read the 3rd edition, but I believe a review was once posted here? I also don't know if any of the GEM books have useful tricks like the little routine that intercepts right-button events and turns them into left-button events. I'd also love to see someone do a SANE binding for GEM calls that passes pointers to structures instead of a bunch of variables that everyone keeps in structs anyway. I managed to cut the size of the GEM demo program source in half that way, and the object code for the demo itself (sans bindings) shrank 35% or so. Less bloody stack-pushing and popping for stuff that's going to get popped and shoved into arrays anyway. >My present favorites are the 3-volume Compute! series (one book each on >AES, VDI, and TOS) and Katherine Peel's 'The Concise Atari ST 68000 >Programmer's Reference Guide' -- but not the first edition which was >lacking any form of index. Indexes do come in handy. Greg Lindahl gl8f@virginia.edu Astrophysicists for Choice.
kclenden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Kevin Clendenien) (03/04/90)
In article <48ef7017.14a1f@force.UUCP> covertr@force.UUCP (Richard E. Covert) writes: >In article <37193@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu>, kclenden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Kevin Clendenien) writes: >> [my sane, sensible comment deleted] > >Horse pukey!!! > > >Apple gives much better support and much of it is free!! > [Richard's unfounded comments deleted] >-- > Richard E. Covert, Lead Engineer of Software Tools Group > AG Communications Systems, Phoenix AZ (602) - 581-4652 > TCP/IP: covertr@gtephx > UUCP: {ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!zardoz!hrc | att}!gtephx!covertr FREE????? I think not Mr. Covert. Why do you think that Apple computers with similar options to Atari computers cost about twice as much? One reason is because Apple is committed to providing information about those computers. Of course they have to pay someone to do that, so they just charge more up front to cover the cost later. The information you're getting is not free, but only appears to be free. Why do you own Atari equipment? Probably because you were able to pay less for it up front. Now you are finding out what you gave up. For a lot of people this alternative makes sense. I know it does for me. If you would consistently use a calm, gentle tone when asking questions, instead of the impatient, whinning tone that you have demonstrated time and time again, you would probably get more answers. For free, even... -------------------------------------------------------------------------- kclenden@silver.bacs.indiana.edu Kevin Clendenien BLoomington Atari ST users group BLAST, President BLAST BBS - (812) 332-0573 FNET node #141
forbes@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Jeff Forbes) (03/04/90)
In article <37824@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu> kclenden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Kevin Clendenien) writes: > >FREE????? I think not Mr. Covert. Why do you think that Apple >computers with similar options to Atari computers cost about >twice as much? One reason is because Apple is committed to >providing information about those computers. Of course they >have to pay someone to do that, so they just charge more >up front to cover the cost later. The information you're >getting is not free, but only appears to be free. >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >kclenden@silver.bacs.indiana.edu Kevin Clendenien >BLoomington Atari ST users group BLAST, President >BLAST BBS - (812) 332-0573 FNET node #141 Apple advertises a great deal more than Atari. I saw one report that 40% of Apple's income goes to advertising. Not a trivial amount. Jeff
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (03/05/90)
In article <37824@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu> kclenden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Kevin Clendenien) writes: > >FREE????? I think not Mr. Covert. Why do you think that Apple >computers with similar options to Atari computers cost about >twice as much? One reason is because Apple is committed to >providing information about those computers. Of course they >have to pay someone to do that, so they just charge more >up front to cover the cost later. The information you're >getting is not free, but only appears to be free. Why do >you own Atari equipment? Probably because you were able to >pay less for it up front. Now you are finding out what you >gave up. For a lot of people this alternative makes sense. I >know it does for me. If you would consistently use a calm, >gentle tone when asking questions, instead of the impatient, >whinning tone that you have demonstrated time and time again, >you would probably get more answers. For free, even... Well, I used to think like this too. I figured, "Great, I save few bucks now and I figure out all the little problems on my own and put up with a lot of ragged software." This was all well and good until I actually got a Mac IIcx. Now I have speed, support from the manufacturer, oodles of support from third party software companies and hardware companies, easy RAM upgrades, easy hardware add-ons, etc. Now that I have one, I think it was worth the up-front cost to avoid all the later exasperation and disappointment. Anyway, I guess the old addage holds true: You get what you pay for. p.s. Richard, lighten up. :-) Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |Where there's a BEER, cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |there's a plan. (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null |Need I say more? ------------------------------+---------------------------
gl8f@astsun8.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (03/05/90)
In article <48ef7e01.14a1f@force.UUCP> covertr@force.UUCP (Richard E. Covert) writes: [ discussing the books that you can get about programming the ST... ] >Where's the beef?? > >Well, for one there is the still the fact that no NEW ST book has >been published in the USA for 2 years. And GEM and GEMDOS haven't changed much in the past 2 years, either. Let's see, TOS 1.4 added one new GEM call, and changed the file selector? Yes, it's nice to see more comprehensive documentation come out, but it isn't *necessary*. Your ability to write GEM programs hasn't disappeared because there aren't any new books describing the old calls. >And the fact, that even Greg admits, that you can't buy *ANY* ST book >in the major bookstores. Right. But the complaint I've seen here so far is, "Atari should bring out docs because the ones we have are shit!" Atari bringing out docs won't put ST books into Waldenbooks. Only bigger sales of ST books will put ST books into Waldenbooks. The problem you have with ST books is the same one you have with ST software and ST peripherals. >Greg, are you on a paid retainer by Atari Corp?? No. Someday you might learn that people can disagree with you without being paid by the evil opposition. I criticize Atari Corp about a lot of things, but at least I make sure I'm not spewing hot air when I make a criticism. >But where do you go for info on programming for GDOS?? GDOS is one big >black hole as far as Atari Corp is concerned. It isn't covered in any >C book that I have. And programmers are all having problems writing >GDOS printer drivers. GDOS calls are documented in my version 1 Abacus book. The major problem with them is that they aren't labeled as such. However, it seems other programmers haven't been unable to write GDOS applications. GDOS printer drivers I have not seen documented, but allegedly Atari sells such documentation. I'd love to see 3rd party documentation about this. Definately a small hole that needs filling. >So, where's the beef?? I would answer "In Sunnyvale!!" Amazing how we can take the same facts and come to a different conclusion. Maybe now you understand why I like ZNet a lot better than I like ST Report. And why I read the Washington Post instead of the World Weekly News. Have a nice day. Greg Lindahl gl8f@virginia.edu Astrophysicists for Choice.
kclenden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Kevin Clendenien) (03/05/90)
In article <1990Mar4.165145.22702@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: ]In article <37824@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu> kclenden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Kevin Clendenien) writes: ]] ]]FREE????? I think not Mr. Covert. Why do you think that Apple ]]computers with similar options to Atari computers cost about ]]twice as much? One reason is because Apple is committed to ] [story about getting Mac IIcx deleted] ]exasperation and disappointment. Anyway, I guess the old addage holds ]true: You get what you pay for. Chris, If you have some extra money lying around, or even an extra Mac IIcx lying around, feel free to send them to me, and I will independently confirm or refute your finding :-) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- kclenden@silver.bacs.indiana.edu Kevin Clendenien BLoomington Atari ST users group BLAST, President BLAST BBS - (812) 332-0573 FNET node #141
kclenden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Kevin Clendenien) (03/05/90)
In article <1990Mar4.060034.28571@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> forbes@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Jeff Forbes) writes: ->In article <37824@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu> kclenden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Kevin Clendenien) writes: ->> ->>FREE????? I think not Mr. Covert. Why do you think that Apple ->>computers with similar options to Atari computers cost about ->>twice as much? One reason is because Apple is committed to ->>providing information about those computers. Of course they ->>have to pay someone to do that, so they just charge more ->>up front to cover the cost later. The information you're ->>getting is not free, but only appears to be free. -> ->Apple advertises a great deal more than Atari. I saw one report that 40% of ->Apple's income goes to advertising. Not a trivial amount. -> -> Jeff That's true. Of course the bottom line goal of advertising is to sell more systems. Selling more systems results in a larger user base. A larger user base means that there are more people that want to buy information. More people wanting to buy information means that Apple can charge less, per person, for that information. It's all a vicious circle. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- kclenden@silver.bacs.indiana.edu Kevin Clendenien BLoomington Atari ST users group BLAST, President BLAST BBS - (812) 332-0573 FNET node #141
bds@lzaz.ATT.COM (Bruce Szablak) (03/06/90)
In article <1990Mar4.191533.329@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gl8f@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes: >Right. But the complaint I've seen here so far is, "Atari should bring >out docs because the ones we have are shit!" Hmmm, from what I been reading, the main complaint is how Atari is trying to restrict technical info on the ST to those who have forked over the developers fee. Perhaps this is the REAL reason the publicly available docs are "shit!"
Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com (03/06/90)
Greg Lindahl says: > ... Atari bringing out docs >won't put ST books into Waldenbooks. Only bigger sales of ST books >will put ST books into Waldenbooks. Er, umm... actually, when Atari asks little third-party developers, "What can WE do to help you", the most overwhelming answer is: "SELL MORE STs!" Thus the REAL solution to the above situation is: "Atari bringing out docs won't put ST books into Waldenbooks. Only bigger sales of *ST COMPUTERS* will put ST books into Waldenbooks." BobR
neil@cs.hw.ac.uk (Neil Forsyth) (03/07/90)
In article <941@lzaz.ATT.COM> bds@lzaz.UUCP (Bruce Szablak) writes: >Hmmm, from what I been reading, the main complaint is how Atari is trying >to restrict technical info on the ST to those who have forked over the >developers fee. Perhaps this is the REAL reason the publicly available >docs are "shit!" Of course the reverse is true in the UK. Being a registered developer I get to read about the workings of the new STE in a magazine instead of being told by Atari that there is this new machine coming out Christmas '89 and would I like some tech details on it. I spent last December writing, phoning and pestering Atari UK to get 2 year old developer documentation on the ordinary ST. I do think that in paying the developers fee you are entitled to information and support that the ordinary user is denied. What do I mean by that? Well by information I mean advanced information on unreleased products such as the TT and special hardware such as Moniterm cards etc. Support? Phone, newsletters bug fixes, the whole thing. I have been told, by Atari UK, that the whole developers support is under a major reorganisation and details will be announced in the near future. As for posting of development documentation to the net perhaps suffering typos I quote from Rainbow TOS release notes:- "The xxxxxx() call is incorrectly documented" "The documentation for the xxxxxx is wrong." +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ! DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise stated, the above comments are entirely my own ! ! ! ! "I think all right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of ! ! being told that ordinary decent people are fed up in this country with ! ! being sick and tired. I'm certainly not and I'm sick and tired of being ! ! told that I am!" - Monty Python ! ! ! ! Neil Forsyth JANET: neil@uk.ac.hw.cs ! ! Dept. of Computer Science ARPA: neil@cs.hw.ac.uk ! ! Heriot-Watt University UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!neil ! ! Edinburgh, Scotland, UK ! +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+