MICHAEL_ARTHUR@bdt.UUCP (05/28/90)
Ralph Mariano, and the staff of ST Report have recently obtained evidence th Greg Lindahl, who sends issues of ST Report and ZMag by E-Mail to several people on UseNet, has engaged in illegal activities concerning ST Report. Specifically, there is evidence of Greg Lindahl's having deleted large segments of ST Report, changed its content to suit his tastes, and added some of his own information to the issues of ST Report which he later E-Mailed to other people on Usenet. Since ST Report is a copyrighted publication, and such editing is illegal, Ralph Mariano wishes to express his sentiments that if Greg Lindahl is indeed doing such a thing, that he stop immediately, because such actions would incriminate both Greg Lindahl and other sources which he uses in the course of perpretrating such acts. Having been asked to post this message by Ralph Mariano (Publisher of ST Report), I also relay his request for dialogue with him on this matter....
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (05/28/90)
In article <2824@bdt.UUCP> MICHAEL_ARTHUR@bdt.UUCP writes: >Ralph Mariano, and the staff of ST Report have recently obtained evidence th >Greg Lindahl, who sends issues of ST Report and ZMag by E-Mail to several >people on UseNet, has engaged in illegal activities concerning ST Report. > >Specifically, there is evidence of Greg Lindahl's having deleted large >segments of ST Report, changed its content to suit his tastes, and added some >of his own information to the issues of ST Report which he later E-Mailed to >other people on Usenet. > >Since ST Report is a copyrighted publication, and such editing is illegal, >Ralph Mariano wishes to express his sentiments that if Greg Lindahl is indeed >doing such a thing, that he stop immediately, because such actions would >incriminate both Greg Lindahl and other sources which he uses in the course of >perpretrating such acts. > > >Having been asked to post this message by Ralph Mariano (Publisher of ST >Report), I also relay his request for dialogue with him on this matter.... Well, it is no secret that Greg and I disagree on quite a few issues, but I think he is justified in his activities. Namely, he edits out all the advertisements and dead wood from the report. Not only do I appreciate this personally (it saves me from paging through all the crap), but it also saves the net money. Why should the net be paying to distribute 10K of advertisements each week? Also, whenever Greg adds anything to the Report, he always puts it in brackets and clearly states that the contents is his opinion, not that of the author. All this is silly anyway. As far as journalistic qualtiy goes, ST Report is plain trashy. It is often inaccurate, the author frequently shows his personal bias in reviews, and the advertisements are a bit much. That is why I unsubscribed from it months ago. I can't justify using 80K of disk space each week to hold that shabby magazine. Your mileage may vary... Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |Where there's a BEER, cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |there's a plan. (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null |Air Warrior is king! ------------------------------+---------------------------
steve@thelake.mn.org (Steve Yelvington) (05/28/90)
[In article <2824@bdt.UUCP>,
MICHAEL_ARTHUR@bdt.UUCP writes ... ]
> Since ST Report is a copyrighted publication, and such editing is illegal,
> Ralph Mariano wishes to express his sentiments that if Greg Lindahl is indeed
> doing such a thing, that he stop immediately, because such actions would
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> incriminate both Greg Lindahl and other sources which he uses in the course of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> perpretrating such acts.
For some time, Greg has relayed ST Report to a mailing list as a volunteer
effort, without any personal gain, as a favor to people who wanted to read
it. What have you done for the benefit of the network? You have issued
threats.
You are not only threatening Greg.
You also are threatening the NSF Internet, its associated networks, and
all the individual UUCP sites through which ST Report might be
transmitted. How else am I to interpret it?
Thanks a lot for doing your bit for unity, harmony and gracious behavior.
> Having been asked to post this message by Ralph Mariano (Publisher of ST
> Report), I also relay his request for dialogue with him on this matter....
You can relay this to him: (|) (South view, equine mammal.)
l l
And you can tell him that ST Report will no longer be relayed through my
system, edited or not.
My apologies to the downstream sites. Znet will continue to be available.
--
Steve Yelvington at the lake in Minnesota
steve@thelake.mn.org
"What's farmalloc? Another one of those agricultural welfare programs?"scott@cs.odu.edu (Scott Yelich) (05/29/90)
>Specifically, there is evidence of Greg Lindahl's having deleted large >segments of ST Report, changed its content to suit his tastes, and added some >of his own information to the issues of ST Report which he later E-Mailed to >other people on Usenet. And I would like to publically thank him for doing so. >Since ST Report is a copyrighted publication, and such editing is illegal, >Ralph Mariano wishes to express his sentiments that if Greg Lindahl is indeed >doing such a thing, that he stop immediately, because such actions would >incriminate both Greg Lindahl and other sources which he uses in the course of >perpretrating such acts. I guess there is a difference between editing a complete copy vs. receiving an already edited version-- but I only read the the mags to see if there is and good news, or if there are any new products. I an understand that advertising helps pay bills [whatever they might be...] but I don't see why having the SAME advertisements week after week is necessary. I find that before Greg edited the duplicate articles out of the magazines that it was really a pain to try to decipher any of them since they often had similar articles (perhaps not even in concurrent issues) and the articles were sometimes slightly altered enough to confuse the reader as to what was the truth. If copyrights are indeed going to be ``inflicted'' upon us here... I would like to say that I would rather NOT RECEIVE the magazine[s] if they are not edited. They are not worth it. [I'm glad I don't pay to receive usenet news....] -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scott D. Yelich scott@[xanth.]cs.odu.edu [128.82.8.1] After he pushed me off the cliff, he asked me, as I fell, ``Why'd you jump?'' Administrator of: Game design requests to <game-design-request@cs.odu.edu> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
bammi@curie.ces.cwru.edu (Jwahar R. Bammi) (05/29/90)
i personally think that greg lindahl does a great job with ST report
and Zmag. the segments he deletes are either commercial in nature, or
repeated in Zmag (or vice versa), or most importantly contain mindless
drivel (like the cpu report for instance). i am personally very glad
that he does, and i am sure it saves a lot of bandwidth. also, i get
quite a kick out of his comments (they are clearly marked as such),
they are for most part very appropriate (especially the ones
concerning the shifting moods of the editor :-).
--
--
bang: {any internet host}!dsrgsun.CES.CWRU.Edu!bammi jwahar r. bammi
domain: bammi@dsrgsun.ces.CWRU.edu
GEnie: J.BammiSeitz@cup.portal.com (Matthew Eric Seitz) (05/29/90)
>>Specifically, there is evidence of Greg Lindahl's having deleted large >>segments of ST Report, changed its content to suit his tastes, and added some >>of his own information to the issues of ST Report which he later E-Mailed to >>other people on Usenet. >> >>Since ST Report is a copyrighted publication, and such editing is illegal, >>Ralph Mariano wishes to express his sentiments that if Greg Lindahl is indeed >>doing such a thing, that he stop immediately, because such actions would >>incriminate both Greg Lindahl and other sources which he uses in the course o f >>perpretrating such acts. >> >> >>Having been asked to post this message by Ralph Mariano (Publisher of ST >>Report), I also relay his request for dialogue with him on this matter.... >Well, it is no secret that Greg and I disagree on quite a few issues, but >I think he is justified in his activities. Namely, he edits out all the >advertisements and dead wood from the report. Not only do I appreciate >this personally (it saves me from paging through all the crap), but it >also saves the net money. Why should the net be paying to distribute >10K of advertisements each week? Why? Because ST Report is a copyrighted work, and those advertisements are part of that work. If you don't like distributing the magazine with the ads either 1) ask the author for permission or 2) don't distribute the magazine . Why? To do otherwise is illegal and unethical. >ST Report is plain trashy. It is often inaccurate, the author frequently >shows his personal bias in reviews, and the advertisements are >a bit much. Doesn't justify illegal distribution. > That is why I unsubscribed from it months ago. I can't >justify using 80K of disk space each week to hold that shabby >magazine. That is the proper response. Matt Seitz seitz@cup.portal.com >------------------------------+--------------------------- >Chris Mauritz |Where there's a BEER, >cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |there's a plan. >(c)All rights reserved. | >Send flames to /dev/null |Air Warrior is king! >------------------------------+--------------------------- P.S. Yes, Chris's article is a copyrighted work that I have just edited. The difference, as I understand copyright law, is that I am excerpting portions without permission for purposes of discussion and criticism. Greg is redistributing the work as a replacement for the original.
david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) (05/30/90)
I hope that everyone realizes that the referenced message in NO WAY
represents the opinions of myself or Beckemeyer Development Tools.
The message was posted by MICHAEL_ARTHUR@bdt.UUCP who uses a BBS
account on my system. This BBS to Usenet gateway is free for anyone
to use. Michael Arthur (or whoever the poster is) is not an employee
of Beckemeyer Development and in no way represents Beckemeyer Development
Tools.
--
David Beckemeyer (david@bdt.UUCP) | "I'll forgive you Dad... If you have
Beckemeyer Development Tools | a breath mint."
P.O. Box 21575, Oakland, CA 94620 | Bart - "The Simpsons"
UUCP: {uunet,ucbvax}!unisoft!bdt!david |gl8f@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (05/31/90)
In article <2824@bdt.UUCP> MICHAEL_ARTHUR@bdt.UUCP writes: >Ralph Mariano, and the staff of ST Report have recently obtained evidence th >Greg Lindahl, who sends issues of ST Report and ZMag by E-Mail to several >people on UseNet, has engaged in illegal activities concerning ST Report. Personally, I'd suggest that Ralph read his own copyright notice before he wets his pants. Through issue 418, his notice did not require transmission without changes. Therefor, what I did is totally legal, according to my understanding of copyright law. I might note that my editing was confined to either deleting whole sections or adding comments which were clearly labeled to be mine. I don't know why Ralph doesn't like this other than the fact that my comments about Ralph's mental state might not be how Ralph sees himself. As of issue 419, his notice precludes modifying the magazine. Since it *is* illegal for me to distribute ads over the Internet, the ST Report mailing list is history. Goodbye Ralph, I won't miss you. >Having been asked to post this message by Ralph Mariano (Publisher of ST >Report), I also relay his request for dialogue with him on this matter.... I'm in the phonebook. But I don't answer my phone. Why don't you show Ralph how to use the Compuserve-Internet gateway, and then he can personally send me mail? I promise I'll print it out, frame it, and put it on my wall. Lawsuit threats are always good for a laugh or two. -- "Perhaps I'm commenting a bit cynically, but I think I'm qualified to." - Dan Bernstein
MICHAEL_ARTHUR@bdt.UUCP (06/02/90)
I, Michael Arthur, am not trying to threaten anyone. Ralph Mariano simply asked me to post a message to attempt to get Greg Lindahl to stop "tampering" with ST Report's content. Here is part of what you posted: -------- > Since ST Report is a copyrighted publication, and such editing is illegal, > Ralph Mariano wishes to express his sentiments that if Greg Lindahl is indeed > doing such a thing, that he stop immediately, because such actions would ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > incriminate both Greg Lindahl and other sources which he uses in the course of ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > perpretrating such acts. For some time, Greg has relayed ST Report to a mailing list as a volunteer effort, without any personal gain, as a favor to people who wanted to read it. What have you done for the benefit of the network? You have issued threats. You are not only threatening Greg. You also are threatening the NSF Internet, its associated networks, and all the individual UUCP sites through which ST Report might be transmitted. How else am I to interpret it? Thanks a lot for doing your bit for unity, harmony and gracious behavior. ------------ I did not mean to imply what you are saying, and if I did, I apologize sincerely to both you, and all of the sites which may possibly have carried ST REport. Ralph Mariano said that such actions would only be aimed at Greg Lindahl and possbibly UVA, if and only if Mr. Lindahl didn't stop changing ST Report to suit his own style of thinking. Neither I, or Ralph Mariano are making threats against anyone. Ralph Mariano is saying that Greg Lindahl doesn't have the right to edit ST Report, since he doesn't make it, and is violating the copyright laws.... I will next post what Ralph Mariano has said in this week's issue of ST Reoprt, in order to COMPLETELY clear up whatever misconceptions there are about what he said....
MICHAEL_ARTHUR@bdt.UUCP (06/02/90)
Here is what Ralph Mariano has said (in this week's issue of ST Report)
concerning the "Greg Lindahl" issue
> COPYRIGHT! STR Spotlight? STReport "chopped up" by college student
========================
THEY SHOULD KNOW BETTER
=======================
by R.F. Mariano
Copyright violations of all types are, for practical purposes, an
integral part of the computing community. Oddly enough, the most serious
offenders frequently appear to be those who do or, at least should, know
better that to perpetrate such non-sense. From outright theft of software
to the brazen copyright infractions recently brought to our attention, it
would appear that people have little or no respect for the rights of
others regardless of the damage or harm they cause.
STReport finds its issues are, at this time, being sent through
USENET by Greg Lindahl, who apparently is under the misguided impression
that he has been granted some sort of editorial powers beyond the bounds
of the copyright notice contained in each of our issues. It seems this
young man, by his own messages, openly admits having edited and/or deleted
various items from STReport.
A number of well meaning individuals who frequent Usenet have brought
this serious matter to our attention. They have clearly stated that this
is an ongoing situation and have provided STReport with sufficient
materials to substantiate their allegations. Further on, we present an
excerpt from the materials.
STReport formally requests of Mr. Lindahl; Please discontinue your
editorial activities immediately. Additionally, to all parties concerned,
STReport Online Magazine may be retransmitted in any form provided each
issue transmitted is complete and complies fully with the copyright notice
posted in each issue.
Portal-Rmail-To: ordania-dm@cup.portal.com
Received: by portal.portal.com (1.14)
id AA10408; Wed, 23 May 90 06:31:09 PDT
Received: from Sun.COM (sun-barr) by sun.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1)
id AA22104; Wed, 23 May 90 03:23:05 PDT
Received: from uvaarpa.virginia.edu by Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1)
id AA11213; Wed, 23 May 90 03:22:53 PDT
Message-Id: <9005231022.AA11213@Sun.COM>
Received: from virginia.acc.Virginia.EDU by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id
aa15178;
23 May 90 3:16 EDT
Received: from virginia.edu by virginia.edu id aa27894; 23 May 90 3:07 EDT
Received: from bessel.acc.Virginia.EDU by virginia.edu id aa27869;
23 May 90 3:01 EDT
Date: Wed May 23 03:01:30 1990
From: Greg Lindahl <gl8f@bessel.acc.virginia.edu>
Reply-To: gl8f@bessel.acc.virginia.edu
To: streport@virginia.edu
Subject: STR # 419
[ This copy of ST Report was edited by me. Each issue I remove the 2
commercial advertisements (one for compuserve or genie, the other for
the editor's hard-drive business), CPU Report if it has nothing to do
with the ST (I left it in once last year), and any "article" composed
of 100% flamage. I sometimes also remove duplicated articles, trim
down press releases, and edit other material.
If you would like to unsubscribe, send mail to streport request @
virgina.edu. Never, ever, send mail to streport@virginia.edu unless you
want it to go to everyone on the list. If streport-request should bounce
a message, it means that my mailbox has gone over 1 meg, or I have a
hardware problem, or you mistyped the name. Do not freakout, just remail
it later.
-- greg ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
STReport " Independent News Source" June 01, 1990
16/32bit Magazine copyright 1990 No.6.22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Views, Opinions and Articles Presented herein are not necessarily those of
the editors or staff of STReport, CPU/STR, or CPU Report. Permission to
reprint articles is hereby granted, unless otherwise noted. Each reprint
must include the name of the publication, date, issue # and the author's
name. The entire publication and/or portions therein may not be edited in
any way without prior written permission. The contents, at the time of
publication, are believed to be reasonably accurate. The editors,
contributors and/or staff are not responsible for either the use/misuse
of information contained herein or the results obtained therefrom.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This article (posted with his permission, BTW) represents Mr. Mariano's
opinion concerning Greg Lindahl's actions....
He also told me personally that if Greg Lindahl continues to warp the content
of ST Report to suit his tastes, then he will "contact the University of
Virginia's legal department to inquire as to why they are allowing Greg
Lindahl to break the copyright laws"...
I CANNOT stress more CLEARLY that Mr. Mariano is not threatening, and does not
intend to sue Usenet, Internet, Arpanet, or ANY of the organizations which you
said he may. If the message that I relayed gave that impression, then I
apologize. However, he has said that UVA and Greg Lindahl are the two parties
"seemingly" involved in either condoning or participating in Greg Lindahl's
activities...
The above represents Mr. Mariano's opinion, and I am merely the messenger....
However, I myself personally feel this is an issue about copyright violations,
nonwithstanding any opinions about ST Report's content itself....cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (06/02/90)
In article <2943@bdt.UUCP> MICHAEL_ARTHUR@bdt.UUCP writes: >I did not mean to imply what you are saying, and if I did, I apologize >sincerely to both you, and all of the sites which may possibly have carried ST >REport. > >Ralph Mariano said that such actions would only be aimed at Greg Lindahl and >possbibly UVA, if and only if Mr. Lindahl didn't stop changing ST Report to >suit his own style of thinking. > >Neither I, or Ralph Mariano are making threats against anyone. Ralph Mariano >is saying that Greg Lindahl doesn't have the right to edit ST Report, since he >doesn't make it, and is violating the copyright laws.... > >I will next post what Ralph Mariano has said in this week's issue of ST >Reoprt, in order to COMPLETELY clear up whatever misconceptions there are >about what he said.... Listen, you don't have to worry anymore. Greg has stated that he will no longer distribute ST-Report since it is now explicitly forbidden to remove all the ridiculous advertising. You can rest assured that the only concrete result of your/Ralph's actions is that a few thousand fewer people will read his piss-ant little magazine. I know Greg distibuted it to a few hundred people and I'm sure many of those people in turn distibuted it to others. I personally used to forward my copy to about 10-15 others after I received it. Ralph, you and your mouthpiece (as usual) are behaving like complete babies. If you had intended to decrease your already small circulation, you have indeed succeeded. Regards, Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |Donde hay una cerveza cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |hay un plan. (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null |El Guerrero Aereo es el rey! ------------------------------+---------------------------
Doug_B_Erdely@cup.portal.com (06/03/90)
I know an easy way to settle this... First ST Report should not be edited, instead it should be thrown in the trash! It was all I could stand to read the 'edited' version, let alone a full strength version of this drivel! And may I remind everyone, including people AT ST Report that it is not permitted to send ads over UseNet! So keep your 'un-edited' ST Report the way it is, but DONT send it over the net. The above represents MY opinions... but I still think ST Report is Drivel! :) - Doug - Doug_B_Erdely@Cup.Portal.Com
gl8f@astsun9.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (06/03/90)
In article <2943@bdt.UUCP> MICHAEL_ARTHUR@bdt.UUCP writes: [...] > >Ralph Mariano said that such actions would only be aimed at Greg Lindahl and >possbibly UVA, if and only if Mr. Lindahl didn't stop changing ST Report to >suit his own style of thinking. Ok, here we have a statement that actions might be taken... >Neither I, or Ralph Mariano are making threats against anyone. Ralph Mariano >is saying that Greg Lindahl doesn't have the right to edit ST Report, since he >doesn't make it, and is violating the copyright laws.... And here we have a statement that no threats are being made. Well, that's good. But note that anything you can sue UVa about for distributing ST Report can be used against every other institution on the Internet which had this mail carried over the links that they lease. Come to think of it, you could sue the telecomm companies that own the lines, too. I hope Ralph knows what he's getting into. Second, Ralph isn't a lawyer. I'm amazined that he's so sure that I'm violating laws. I am not a lawyer, but it's obvious that I'm not violating the old ST Report copyright. I would suggest that you go look at the back issues at the changes I actually made before you or Ralph jump to any conclusions. Or maybe Ralph prefers it if I leave in misspellings and factual errors. Maybe Ralph prefers it if I violate UVa policy, US Government policy, and lord-knows-what-other-policy by leaving advertisements in something I send over the Internet. Third, the only result of Ralph's action is that he has destroyed any possibility of ST Report being carried over the Internet. I have some 261 people directly on my mailing list, and they passed ST Report on to many bbses in the US, Europe, and other continents. Perhaps next time he might send me some email before he cuts his own nose off. Fortunately, there's no problem here. Almost all of the people above also receive Z*Net, which is (IMHO) a much better magazine, full of interesting articles, stimulating editorials, and has no advertising. The only thing I've ever cut from Z*Net were entire articles that had nothing at all to do with the Atari ST. And the Z*Net copyright continues to allow me to do so. Thanks, Z*Net. >I will next post what Ralph Mariano has said in this week's issue of ST >Reoprt, in order to COMPLETELY clear up whatever misconceptions there are >about what he said.... I hope you got permission from Ralph, because you just violated his copyright. I hope he doesn't sue you. Have a nice day. -- "Perhaps I'm commenting a bit cynically, but I think I'm qualified to." - Dan Bernstein
Metalist@cup.portal.com (Bryan Jones Woodworth) (06/03/90)
Why do we not forget about this blasted topic? Or at least resolve it? It has become tedious and depressing. Does anyone agree with me? Metalist@cup.portal.com
SML108@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott the Great) (06/04/90)
You know, it's stuff like this that makes me want to buy a Mac. There are alot of really neat people out there with ST's doing wonderful things because they love their machines who stick by their machine because they know it's a neat toy, and then there are those anal retentive misanthropes that give the entire user community a bad name. Greg: You did a great job with ST Report. I really enjoyed being able to grab it off the net. Mr. Mariano is a jerk, period. Mr. Mariano (Wherever you are): Get a life! Scott Le Grand aka sml108@psuvm.psu.edu
ignac@electro.UUCP (Ignac Kolenko) (06/04/90)
In article <90154.203711SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> SML108@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott the Great) writes: > > You know, it's stuff like this that makes me want to buy a Mac. There are >alot of really neat people out there with ST's doing wonderful things because >they love their machines who stick by their machine because they know it's >a neat toy, and then there are those anal retentive misanthropes that give >the entire user community a bad name. > >Greg: You did a great job with ST Report. I really enjoyed being able >to grab it off the net. Mr. Mariano is a jerk, period. > >Mr. Mariano (Wherever you are): Get a life! after following this controversy (if you can even call it that - farce is much more appropriate), i can only say that Mr. Mariano, "Get a life!" (oh god, i hope that Scott doesn't sue me for copyright infringement on that quote!!!) :-) i have met Mr. Mariano in person, and i was NOT particularly impressed, and i'm not concerned if Mr. Mariano thinks less of me now either. i will not go into details in public, but i expected this reaction to Greg's "tampering". i just want to say that he was doing a good job, but i guess he's going to have to stop now. too bad! :-( (btw, i don't really read either mag - i have better things to do with my spare time :-) this is another reason that i have left Branch Always Software. This kind of nonesense is simply a huge pain in the butt, and i have no time or patience for it anymore. i have a life, and it will be involving the Atari even less from now on. It's a shame. The computer is fantastic, but many of the people involved with it are just plain idiots and asses (i'm not pointing fingers here at anyone in particular). i never thought that i would get pissed off at the atari community ever, but i have, and i'm not going back. and if this developer (myself) has these views, i'm sure that many others out there share them as well, and the Atari community will suffer as a result. all i can say is that i hope this issue is resolved SOON, and amicably. Otherwise, many people, maybe including myself, will soon be hitting the 'u' key to unsubscribe ... (my 0.02 (~0.03 canadian) worth!!!) (this sort of reminds me of the Meech Lake fiasco here in the Great White North!) -- ========Ignac A. Kolenko (The Ig)=======watmath!watcgl!electro!ignac========= I refuse to succumb to societal pressure and give a witty quote in my .sig!!! =============================================================================
grieggs@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (John T. Grieggs) (06/05/90)
I would like to recieve an un-edited ST Report via mailing list. Is
there anyone out there with such a list? I do not have an account on
any of the pay services currently...
_john
--
John T. Grieggs (Telos @ Jet Propulsion Laboratory)
4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, Ca. 91109 M/S 301-320T (818) 354-0871
Uucp: {cit-vax,elroy,chas2}!jpl-devvax!grieggs
Arpa: ...jpl-devvax!grieggs@cit-vax.ARPAgl8f@astsun8.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (06/05/90)
In article <8279@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV> grieggs@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (John T. Grieggs) writes: >I would like to recieve an un-edited ST Report via mailing list. Is >there anyone out there with such a list? I do not have an account on >any of the pay services currently... No. ST Report contains advertising. You work on a government computer, and the networks such a mailing list would use to talk to you are controlled by organizations that don't allow commercial use of their networks. However, Z*Net is available via a mailing list because it has no advertising. To subscribe, send mail to stzmagazine-request@virginia.edu. -- "Perhaps I'm commenting a bit cynically, but I think I'm qualified to." - Dan Bernstein
Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com (06/05/90)
This is all pretty comical... I don't care about ST Report one way or the other.. when there's something in it I want to read, I get it from one of several sources that have nothing to do with UseNet... What's really been amusing though is the number of people here who are willing to have Greg Lindahl do their thinking for them... Perhaps we should let him censor our daily newspapers too... that way he could just snip out any articles he doesn't think are interesting.. think of all the wasted time and reading we'd save by letting him do our thinking for us... Come to think of it, there've been some really boring articles in STart at times.. maybe we should let him scissor out those... and the ads too! I dunno, it sounds pretty scary when people start letting someone else think for them... BobR
gl8f@astsun8.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (06/05/90)
In article <30527@cup.portal.com> Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com writes: >This is all pretty comical... Indeed it is. >What's really been amusing though is the number of people here who are >willing to have Greg Lindahl do their thinking for them... > >Perhaps we should let him censor our daily newspapers too... that way he >could just snip out any articles he doesn't think are interesting.. What's really been amusing are people like you who decry "censorship" without looking to see what I'm actually did. I threw out things I couldn't pass on (ads), things that were total paranoid ravings (the extra "editorials"), postings that were merely messages from GEnie (I was concerned about copyright issues), and things unrelated to the ST (CPU Report, full of factual errors, too.) When I tossed something out, I marked them in the text, so that readers could see what I did. If they didn't like it, they could complain. I got very few complaints and very many thank-yous. [ I might note that it seems that Ralph never looked at an abridged issue, either, he just read the header I started sticking on the issues. ] I guess your idea of a newspaper is some sort of service where anyone can submit any article they want, and the newspaper must print it. You know, Bob, if you don't like the way I run the list, why don't you volunteer to take it over? I don't get paid to do this job, I only did it because I was tired of seeing people argue about posting the magazines on this group. And my reward is getting slandered in an international forum that I have no way of replying to. Well, fine, I'll just distribute the magazine run by a sane editor. So, just let me know, you can have the Z*Net mailing list and you can take care of all the administrivia. And someday you'll find that ultimate newspaper. But I'll bet you aren't interested, you prefer sitting on the sidelines and sniping to doing anything real. Have a nice day. -- "Perhaps I'm commenting a bit cynically, but I think I'm qualified to." - Dan Bernstein
hcj@lzsc.ATT.COM (HC Johnson) (06/05/90)
Heres my $0.02. I think Greg started with a good idea; strip the commercials and send ST Report onto Usenet. Unfortunately for all concerned, he started cutting (and/or commenting) the body of the material. The material may have been Redundant, Wrong, or whatever, but any such cutting must change the intent of the author. This I think is wrong. (Personally, I think that if Greg felt disclaimers were needed he should have posted a "rebuttal" with the original.) Hopefully, if Greg sticks to his words, ST-Report will dissapear from Usenet and the author will know his document will stay in one piece, even if its unread. Howard C. Johnson ATT Bell Labs att!lzsc!hcj hcj@lzsc.att.com
cr1@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Anubis) (06/05/90)
BobR, You raise a good point, it is horrible to let someone do our thinking for us. However, I do not think I would consider the editing of ST Report to be 'censorship' or 'thinking for us'. STR could not be distributed with the ads over the net...By removing those ads and distributing them greg was doing a service to the ST community, making more info available. He should have gotten permission of the author first mind you, but other then that there is nothing wrong with what he did. There is always someone who is doing the 'thinking' for you, if editing is indeed thinking for someone. People at a newspaper are editing and deciding what is newsworthy, people at a TV Station, and unless you can be everywhere at once, you will always get an 'edited' version of things. I do not think that STR was edited irresponsibly OTHER THEN the fact that permission should have been granted before such distribution took place. I will no longer read STR, by the way...This was between Greg and the author of STR...what is it doing all over the net? -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= * Christoper Roth * "Machines have no * InterNet : cr1@beach.cis.ufl.edu * Conscience..." =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Post No Bills-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
davidli@simvax.labmed.umn.edu (David Paschall-Zimbel) (06/05/90)
In article <8279@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV>, grieggs@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (John T. Grieggs) writes... >I would like to recieve an un-edited ST Report via mailing list. Is >there anyone out there with such a list? No, there is not. And if I discovered copies of such a mailing list moving thru my own system, they'd get rejected back to the sender. The jerk who edits and produces ST Report doesn't deserve time on the Internet, being that his 'magazine' is obviously commercial in intent. -- David Paschall-Zimbel
robert@infmx.UUCP (Robert Coleman) (06/06/90)
In article <30527@cup.portal.com- Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com writes:
-This is all pretty comical...
-
-I don't care about ST Report one way or the other.. when there's something in
-it I want to read, I get it from one of several sources that have nothing
-to do with UseNet...
-
-What's really been amusing though is the number of people here who are
-willing to have Greg Lindahl do their thinking for them...
-
-Perhaps we should let him censor our daily newspapers too... that way he
-could just snip out any articles he doesn't think are interesting.. think
-of all the wasted time and reading we'd save by letting him do our
-thinking for us...
-
-Come to think of it, there've been some really boring articles in STart
-at times.. maybe we should let him scissor out those... and the ads too!
-
-I dunno, it sounds pretty scary when people start letting someone else
-think for them...
Right. Which is why I won't begin with you.
Interestingly enough, what Greg Lindahl was doing is something any
manager would appreciate: cut out the b******t, just give me the pertinent
info. Of course, if you have an infinite amount of time, you can read
everything. If you don't, you find a good employee to sift through all the
data, and give you the stuff you really need.
I don't know how good a job Greg was doing; the fact that he was
*trying* to save people time (and, incidentally, obeying the law, something
that I personally admire) leads me to suspect he would be a good
employee...as opposed, of course, to someone who assumes you want every
single detail, with or without regard to the legalities...
I assure you, a good manager does *not* do all of his "thinking"
for himself. He delegates. The essence of good management is to find
people you can trust to do delegated tasks properly, and to report back
what *you* need, and *only* what you need, to do your job.
The fact that he's trying to edit isn't intrinsically bad (after
all, *everything* we normally read has been editted by *someone*, even the
vaunted STreport; what we have here is just a second level of editting);
the more important question is "was he a good editor?". That, of course,
will always be a matter of opinion, based on the goals of the recipient.
Robert C.
--
"Helen's the only one who knows what scruples are, and she won't tell us"
John said. "Have we got scruples about it, Helen?"
"Not a trace," Helen affirmed. -The Reefs of Earth, R.A.Laffertygrieggs@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (John T. Grieggs) (06/06/90)
In article <1990Jun4.235418.25341@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gl8f@astsun8.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes: >In article <8279@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV> grieggs@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (John T. Grieggs) writes: >>I would like to recieve an un-edited ST Report via mailing list. Is >>there anyone out there with such a list? I do not have an account on >>any of the pay services currently... > >No. ST Report contains advertising. You work on a government computer, >and the networks such a mailing list would use to talk to you are >controlled by organizations that don't allow commercial use of their >networks. > I work on a computer at a government-funded private research corporation - we are actually owned by Caltech, if I am not mistaken. I knew you held this opinion, and posted to see if you held the only opinion. I do regularly recieve advertising literature via snail-mail here, and nobody seems to be upset about that. Then there are the .forsale newsgroups... Incidentally, I am not all that excited about the advertising. I am much more interested in recieving only one level of editorial comment, rather than two or zero. But since you are no longer sending it out at all, I will seek out another source. >However, Z*Net is available via a mailing list because it has no >advertising. To subscribe, send mail to stzmagazine-request@virginia.edu. > Already get it. Thanks. >-- >"Perhaps I'm commenting a bit cynically, but I think I'm qualified to." > - Dan Bernstein seems to fit... -- John T. Grieggs (Telos @ Jet Propulsion Laboratory) 4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, Ca. 91109 M/S 301-320T (818) 354-0871 Uucp: {cit-vax,elroy,chas2}!jpl-devvax!grieggs Arpa: ...jpl-devvax!grieggs@cit-vax.ARPA
grieggs@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (John T. Grieggs) (06/06/90)
In article <1990Jun5.043318.26811@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gl8f@astsun8.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes: >In article <30527@cup.portal.com> Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com writes: >>This is all pretty comical... >Indeed it is. Speaking of paranoid ravings, do you listen to yourself when you post? I don't like the way you handle (handled) the ST-Report mailing list, and would be perfectly willing to take it over, if only I could find a reliable source for the things. I have no Genie or Compuserve account. Where else can I get an uncensored ST-Report in Southern California? And yes, I will remove the commercial advertisements. But nothing else. _john -- John T. Grieggs (Telos @ Jet Propulsion Laboratory) 4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, Ca. 91109 M/S 301-320T (818) 354-0871 Uucp: {cit-vax,elroy,chas2}!jpl-devvax!grieggs Arpa: ...jpl-devvax!grieggs@cit-vax.ARPA
jfbruno@rodan.acs.syr.edu (John Bruno) (06/06/90)
EEEEEE NN N OOOOO U U GGGGG H H
E N N N O O U U G H H
EEE N N N O O U U G GGG HHHHHH
E N N N O O U U G G H H
EEEEEE N NN OOOOO UUUU GGGG H H
AA L RRRRR EEEEEE AA DDDDD Y Y !!
A A L R R E A A D D Y Y !!
AAAAAA L RRRRR EEE AAAAAA D D YY !!
A A L R R E A A D D YY
A A LLLLLL R R EEEEEE A A DDDDD YY !!
Get it?
---jbcmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (06/06/90)
In article <8290@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV> grieggs@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (John T. Grieggs) writes: >In article <1990Jun4.235418.25341@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gl8f@astsun8.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes: >>In article <8279@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV> grieggs@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (John T. Grieggs) writes: >>>I would like to recieve an un-edited ST Report via mailing list. Is >>>there anyone out there with such a list? I do not have an account on >>>any of the pay services currently... >> >>No. ST Report contains advertising. You work on a government computer, >>and the networks such a mailing list would use to talk to you are >>controlled by organizations that don't allow commercial use of their >>networks. >> >I work on a computer at a government-funded private research corporation - >we are actually owned by Caltech, if I am not mistaken. I knew you held >this opinion, and posted to see if you held the only opinion. I do >regularly recieve advertising literature via snail-mail here, and nobody >seems to be upset about that. Then there are the .forsale newsgroups... Well, the difference between receiving junk snail-mail and junk email is that the sender of junk snail-mail pays the postage. In the email case, the "postage" is bourne (little unix humor there) by all the machine between the originating machine and the ultimate destination. This could be literally hundreds or thousands of machines. Why should they have to contribute their resources to proliferate someone's advertisements? Yes, the misc.forsale groups seem to be an anomoly. I guess they were created for the convenience of net.users. It is hard to justify their existence based on the above premise unless they are widely used by many sites. Regards, Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |Donde hay una cerveza cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |hay un plan. (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null |El Guerrero Aereo es el rey! ------------------------------+---------------------------
Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com (06/06/90)
John Grieggs asks: >I would like to recieve an un-edited ST Report via mailing list. Is >there anyone out there with such a list? I do not have an account on >any of the pay services currently... Probably the best way to receive an uncensored version of any of the online magazines would be to get them from a local Atari oriented BBS. There are many in California, and Pasadena should have some within a local phone call... the files are generally ARChived, so if you don't have an ST equipped with a modem to download them directly, you'd have to have an unARCer for your mainframe. I still haven't gotten around to trying any of them under VMS 5.3... Another source would be Atari user groups. I'm in the process of assembling "back-issues" disks of ST-Retort and Z-Rag for my local user group's disk library, and I'm sure other clubs would have them available as well... BobR
Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com (06/06/90)
In reply to Greg Lindahl... I think you were doing a real service to the members of the UseNet community who have no other source for the online magazines by maintaining an E-Mail mailing list... What I object to is your changing the content of the publications to suit your own tastes. When you delete "paranoid ravings," you impose your own tastes and opinions on everyone who eventually receives the censored version, and who will never have the opportunity to make up their own minds. If my mailman was a Republican, and was allowed to censor my mail and magazin I'll bet I'd never see any articles about Democrats... >I guess your idea of a newspaper is some sort of service where anyone >can submit any article they want, and the newspaper must print it. No, the idea is called "Freedom of the Press" where publications are guaranteed that they *won't* be censored as you were trying to do... whether you like it or not, that's the way we do things in the U.S. of A... As far as running the mailing list, I'm far too busy supporting local Atari user groups... it's ironic how many "Atari Bashers" are actually heavily involved in supporting Atari at the grass-roots level, while most of the "Atari Cheerleaders" are not... If you want to do a service to the UseNet community by forwarding online magazines, more power to you... it's a great idea, and you deserve a lot of respect for putting in the time and effort to do it... If you want to censor the content of what you're passing along, forget it... BobR
Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com (06/06/90)
Christopher Roth writes: >You raise a good point, it is horrible to let someone do our thinking >for us. However, I do not think I would consider the editing of ST >Report to be 'censorship' or 'thinking for us'. STR could not be >distributed with the ads over the net...By removing those ads and >distributing them greg was doing a service to the ST community, making >more info available. He should have gotten permission of the author >first mind you, but other then that there is nothing wrong with what >he did. Chris, if indeed private E-mail over UseNet is barred from containing anything of a commercial nature, then *with permission*, removing the ads before sending the online magazines out would be a true service... But removing "paranoid ravings" or "things unrelated to the ST" is not... that's subject to the opinion of the censor. There's a big difference between the editors of a newspaper selecting which stories to cover, and someone like a government agency coming in with a big black marker and blanking out stories they don't want you to read. The first is called editing, the second is censorship... If Greg wants to create his own publication, then he can "edit" it in any manner he wants to... but as "custodian" of a mailing list for an existing publication, he has no right to change the content of that publication. I agree that he should have gotten permission to change ST-Report before he did so... probably that's why it's spilled over into the public... BobR
Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com (06/06/90)
(Well, there really isn't much else to talk about.. Atari made a really dismal showing at CES, and the STe is delayed again...) David Paschall-Zimbel writes: >... The jerk who edits and >produces ST Report doesn't deserve time on the Internet, being that his >'magazine' is obviously commercial in intent. Can you expand on that a little...? I'm not defending ST-Report, but I have a little trouble understanding how it's "obviously commercial"...? ST-Report usually contains an ad from ABCO, the company that the editor runs... does that make the entire magazine "obviously commercial"..? Z-Mag quite often runs ads for their "Z-Net" publication which is *also* a commercial venture... is that any better than ST-Report..? Does private E-Mail come under the scrutiny of sites on UseNet in the same way as public postings..? The ST-Reports in question were being mailed, not posted... BobR
kclenden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Kevin Clendenien) (06/06/90)
In article <30527@cup.portal.com> Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com writes: >This is all pretty comical... [I must be thinking for you because I editted some stuff out here.] >Come to think of it, there've been some really boring articles in STart >at times.. maybe we should let him scissor out those... and the ads too! > >I dunno, it sounds pretty scary when people start letting someone else >think for them... > >BobR Come on Bob. Everything you take in has been editted in one way, or another. If you get news from TV, some editor has decided what gets shown, and what doesn't. Newspapers and magazines have editors as well. Even your own sight and hearing have been editted by your own physical limitations. Greg was not thinking for other people, he was doing two things. He removed advertisements so ST-Report could be transmitted over the network, and he removed articles that were either duplicates, or non ST related. He added his own editorial comments, but that could hardly be misconstrued as withholding information. If you really think that Greg was trying to do all the thinking around here, I think that maybe you should ask Greg to do some thinking for you, so that things can be set straight in your mind. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- kclenden@silver.bacs.indiana.edu Kevin Clendenien BLAST BBS - (812) 332-0573 BLAST, President "I want someone like you, only nicer."
steve@thelake.mn.org (Steve Yelvington) (06/06/90)
Of the last 62 messages received here at the lake, 16 are devoted to
this tiresome and obsolete subject, and only one made a positive
contribution. That was from jfbruno@rodan.acs.syr.edu (John Bruno),
who said:
"
EEEEEE NN N OOOOO U U GGGGG H H
E N N N O O U U G H H
EEE N N N O O U U G GGG HHHHHH
E N N N O O U U G G H H
EEEEEE N NN OOOOO UUUU GGGG H H
AA L RRRRR EEEEEE AA DDDDD Y Y !! "
A A L R R E A A D D Y Y !!
AAAAAA L RRRRR EEE AAAAAA D D YY !!
A A L R R E A A D D YY
A A LLLLLL R R EEEEEE A A DDDDD YY !!
It's over. Done with. Kaput. Gone.
Give it a rest.
--
Steve Yelvington at the lake in Minnesota = steve@thelake.mn.orgkimes@cbnewsc.att.com (Kit Kimes) (06/07/90)
From article <30527@cup.portal.com>, by Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com: > This is all pretty comical... ...... > What's really been amusing though is the number of people here who are > willing to have Greg Lindahl do their thinking for them... ....... > I dunno, it sounds pretty scary when people start letting someone else > think for them... Other than cutting out advertisements and some non-ST articles, the only thing Greg ever did is add a few of him own comments that were clearly marked like this: [sounds way off base to me -- gl] Never did such comments affect or substitute my thinking for myself in regards to the article. The only question is whether you want everything to be left in your copy of ST-Report. Personally I perferred the way Greg did it; I didn't have to skip over them myself. Kit Kimes AT&T Bell Labs Naperville, IL ...!att!iwtsa!kimes
gl8f@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (06/07/90)
In article <30565@cup.portal.com> Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com writes: >Chris, if indeed private E-mail over UseNet is barred from containing >anything of a commercial nature, then *with permission*, removing the >ads before sending the online magazines out would be a true service... Private email over the Internet has this restriction. If not, someone could email thousands of advertisements from portal all over the world for essentially free. Nope. >There's a big difference between the editors of a newspaper selecting which >stories to cover, and someone like a government agency coming in with a >big black marker and blanking out stories they don't want you to read. Listen, Bob, I didn't stop ANYONE from getting anything. Anyone else could have set up a mailing list and mailed whatever they wanted out, as long as the advertisements were removed. That's why it's editing. I have the *FREEDOM* to not be forced to mail out bullshit I don't agree with. You have the *FREEDOM* to mail out the bullshit, if you're willing to spend your time. >I agree that he should have gotten permission to change ST-Report before >he did so... probably that's why it's spilled over into the public... The law isn't on your side. And this is my last posting on the topic, as there is nothing more to be discussed. - The ST-Report mailing list is dead. - ST-Report cannot be mailed over the Internet, given its current copyright restriction and advertisements. -- "Perhaps I'm commenting a bit cynically, but I think I'm qualified to." - Dan Bernstein
gl8f@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (06/08/90)
In article <1832@lzsc.ATT.COM> hcj@lzsc.ATT.COM (HC Johnson) writes: >I think Greg started with a good idea; strip the commercials and send ST >Report onto Usenet. > >Unfortunately for all concerned, he started cutting (and/or commenting) >the body of the material. This isn't quite right. I never cut anything but whole articles. I commented in the body of material, generally to correct factual errors, in a fashion that was well-marked as being my words. I think the uproar would be much less if the roaring people had looked at what I actually did. Alternately, anyone could have volunteered to take over the list. Now, can we put this "issue" to rest already? -- "Perhaps I'm commenting a bit cynically, but I think I'm qualified to." - Dan Bernstein