bammi@mandrill.UUCP (09/06/87)
Jefferson Software is evaluating Idris. We will put our Modula 2
development system up in the next few weeks.
Idris looks to be a very powerful development system. It comes with
a lot of tools, and a huge library. The C compiler is very close to
the proposed ANSI standard. It has the POSEX standard library and a lot
of extra libraries to do IPC. It is currently in a 9MB partition on my
HD and runs on a 520 quite nicely. Dial up works and we will try using
the midi ports for a third line in.
I did a quick benchmark and Idris looks comparable to the speed of
the Alcyon compiler. I will do all the benchmarks bammi did on Idris
including the dhrystone as soon as possable.
We hope to use Idris (* with other STs running minix *) to develop
in an environment that has tools and supports dial up.
I am using this account cause I HAD to post, but do not have a feed
from Usenet yet. That should be coming. Till then, we love talking and
are available at:
JS BBS (602)276-6102 1200 baud PC Pursuitable.
Bix: JSModula
GEnie: JSMODULA
CIS: 73637,1245
Opinions expressed above are mine and not the opinions of Computer
Tools International (206)838-4990 tell them I sent you, or Case
Western, or J bammi, or my dogs. However, my dog agrees that Idris
is pretty nifty.
Gary Frederick
Director Deep Research
Jefferson Software
--
usenet: {decvax,cbosgd,sun}!mandrill!bammi jwahar r. bammi
csnet: bammi@mandrill.CWRU.edu
arpa: bammi@mandrill.CWRU.edu
compuServe: 71515,155topr@wmt.UUCP (Tom Pronk) (01/12/88)
Early this year I read a posting about IDRIS for the (MEGA-)ST. Michael Eibl asked about the performance of an emulated MMU, porting UNIX software to IDRIS and the availability of IDRIS in Germany. I might have missed something, but I didn't hear anything about IDRIS since. If I have missed something please send me mail, particullary about the availibility in Europe (Holland ?!!). Thanks in advance, Tom Pronk. XXX disclaimer: I speak for myself. XXX mail: topr@wmt.uucp
fst@mcgp1.UUCP (Skip Tavakkolian) (04/03/88)
For Your Information:
The following are the new IDRIS(R) (release 3.14) and STX-Windows(TM) prices:
IDRIS TARGET SYSTEM (TS) ........................................ $149.95 (US)
Features a complete executive and all utilities except program development
utilities. This system includes socket and pty drivers.
STX-WINDOWS, When purchased with IDRIS TS or PS ................. $49.95 (US)
STX-WINDOWS, When purchased separately .......................... $99.95 (US)
X-Window Version 10.4, utilities and Xlib. This release of STX-Windows only
support Client and Server on the same machine. STX-Windows requires IDRIS TS.
IDRIS PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT PACKAGE (PS) ..................... $549.95 (US)
Features executive and all utilities (TS package), C compiler, Pascal
compiler, 68000 Assembler and libraries , 68020 libraries , libraries
for accessing ST's VDI and LineA routines, and C source level debuggers.
CText ([tn]roff-like Documentation Utilities) ................... Inquire.
Description of IDRIS packages:
STX-WINDOW utilities:
xclock xwm uwm xnwm xinit xfd xsetroot
xterm bitmap gedit xshell xwininfo
IDRIS TARGET SYSTEM (TS) contains the following utilities:
cmds date devs error hsh kill nice nohup ps printenv
setb sh cd exec exit chroot setenv umask sleep test
time uname chmod chown cp dcheck df dump fcheck icheck
ln ls mk mkdev mkdir mkfifo mount mv pwd rm
tar tp cat cmp crypt dd detabs diff e echo
emacs exp grep last md pk pr roff sort spell
page tee wc deque enque log lpr mail mesg multi
passwd su stty who write cu dn kermit up ve
shl showpic options tosdir tosget dir diskformat db
PROFESSIONAL SYSTEM has in addition to the TS utilities, the following:
as c cdb hex link lib lord pc prof
rel unhex
The following utilities will be added with the IDRIS release 3.2
vi uucp uux rmail
In addition, CTI provides a library of public domain and/or GNUware utilities
(and their sources) which have been ported to the IDRIS/ST for the cost
of the media and handling. These include :
make less mirco-emacs bison sdb(small database) xlisp
DOCUMENTATION
All systems come with complete documentation according to system ordered.
For more information call or write:
COMPUTER TOOLS INTERNATIONAL, INC.
14900 Interurban Ave. So.
Seattle, WA 98168
(206)243-7060
Sincerely
Skip Tavakkolian
X-Windows is a trademark of Massachusettes Institute of Technology (MIT).
IDRIS on the ATARI is a copyright (c) of Computer Tools International, Inc.
and Whitesmiths, Ltd.
STX-WINDOWS is a Trademark of Computer Tools International, Inc.
IDRIS is a registered trademark of Whitesmiths Ltd.
ATARI ST is a trademark of the ATARI Corporation.
All public domain software is offered for a nominal media and handling charge. tw@cscosl.ncsu.edu (Thomas Wolf) (04/04/88)
In article <1292@mcgp1.UUCP> fst@mcgp1.UUCP (Skip Tavakkolian) writes: >For Your Information: >The following are the new IDRIS(R) (release 3.14) and STX-Windows(TM) prices: > >IDRIS TARGET SYSTEM (TS) ........................................ $149.95 (US) >Features a complete executive and all utilities except program development >utilities. This system includes socket and pty drivers. > >STX-WINDOWS, When purchased with IDRIS TS or PS ................. $49.95 (US) [rest of article deleted] This question might be a naive one (since I don't know anything about Idris): Could you use MW C to develop software under Idris? (I guess I'm trying to decide whether a poor student such as I could get away with not purchasing the Idris PS system - if I were to purchase it at all.) The prices quoted in the article seem to be extremely reasonable. However, I wonder how worthwhile it would be to develop software for Idris. Although it appears to be a fairly extensive Unix-like environment (correct?), I don't see a market (at least an ST/Mega market) for it. I suppose the target market wasn't supposed to be the ST/Mega but any Unix-supporting environment? Can you port source-level code written under Idris to other Unix machines without modifications? One last question: What system configuration does one need to have to use Idris as a reasonable fast tool? I have a 20meg hd, but from what I hear about other systems supporting flavors of Unix, the environment takes up lots of room. This isn't really that an important a question, but I'm curious as to Idris' size. Thanks in advance for any information regarding these (maybe naive) queries. I also would appreciate more articles summarizing Idris. As you may have noticed from the nature of my questions, I'm nearly completely ignorant as to the nature of Idris, Atari's commitment to it, etc. Also, if Idris was summarized in a previous article in this news-group, I must have missed it; could someone re-post it? Tom Wolf ARPA (I think): tw@cscosl.ncsu.edu or wolf@csclea.ncsu.edu
ftw@datacube.UUCP (04/06/88)
tw@cscosl.UUCP writes: [re-posting of Skip's article deleted...] > This question might be a naive one (since I don't know anything about Idris): > Could you use MW C to develop software under Idris? No, not without a fair amount of trickery. The trickery involves creating a header for the binary that would trick Idris into thinking that said binary is a legit Idris executable. It would also have to be tagged as an "absolute" binary, meaning that it can only ever be located at a specific address. This is because Idris would not understand any relocatin info in an MWC binary (if such exists). All Idris executables have relocation info so that at exec time, Idris can locate the program anywhere in memory. It is worthwhile to note that this is different from "position independent code". > (I guess I'm trying to decide whether a poor student > such as I could get away with not purchasing the > Idris PS system - if I were to purchase it at all.) I'm afraid not, unless you are a poor but very clever student with lots of time on his hands. > The prices quoted in the article seem to be extremely reasonable. However, > I wonder how worthwhile it would be to develop software for Idris. Although > it appears to be a fairly extensive Unix-like environment (correct?), I don't > see a market (at least an ST/Mega market) for it. I suppose the target > market wasn't supposed to be the ST/Mega but any Unix-supporting environment? > Can you port source-level code written under Idris to other Unix machines > without modifications? Last I knew, Idris was targeted at folks who develop under Unix at work, and might want a low-priced Unix box at home. It is also targeted at those who might need a Unix (like) based system at work, but can't quite afford a low-end Sun or other such system (Yes, the 3/50's are inexpensive, but then you need to add a big disk and screaming tape, which bumps the entry price quite a bit). Code targeted for Idris can be easily ported to other Unix environments as long as you stay away from Idris-specific things, such as shared memory, and the IPC facility, to name two. These are also found in System V and Berkeley, but the Idris implementation is different than either of those. As for porting from Unix to Idris, it's not bad. Idris is very System V like. I have Moria running on my ST, as an example. > One last question: What system configuration does one need to have to use > Idris as a reasonable fast tool? I have a 20meg hd, but from what I hear > about other systems supporting flavors of Unix, the environment takes up lots > of room. This isn't really that an important a question, but I'm curious as > to Idris' size. Strongly reccomend a 1040 and a 20 Meg disk as a base configuration. Idris and its utilities don't take too much room, but if you insist on keeping all the library conbinations around (e.g., 68020 libraries, single-precision floating point, Pascal, et. al.), they add some heft to the whole system. Figure on less than five megs of disk for the whole shot (I can get a more exact estimate from my system, if you like). I have an older version without the hooks for X-windows, and that version of Idris consumes just more than 500K of ram when running (I have a 520 block ram-disk installed, which accounts for a lot of that). [deleted] > Tom Wolf > ARPA (I think): tw@cscosl.ncsu.edu > or wolf@csclea.ncsu.edu #include <std_disclaimer> Farrell T. Woods Datacube Inc. Systems / Software Group 4 Dearborn Rd. Peabody, Ma 01960 VOICE: 617-535-6644; FAX: (617) 535-5643; TWX: (710) 347-0125 INTERNET: ftw@datacube.COM UUCP: {rutgers, ihnp4, mirror}!datacube!ftw "OS/2 -- Half an operating system"
fst@mcgp1.UUCP (Skip Tavakkolian) (04/08/88)
In article <1656@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu>, tw@cscosl.ncsu.edu (Thomas Wolf) writes: > In article <1292@mcgp1.UUCP> fst@mcgp1.UUCP (Skip Tavakkolian) writes: >>For Your Information: >>IDRIS TARGET SYSTEM (TS) ........................................ $149.95 (US) >>STX-WINDOWS, When purchased with IDRIS TS or PS ................. $49.95 (US) > Could you use MW C to develop software under Idris? You could NOT use the version that runs under TOS. IDRIS completely replaces TOS. > > The prices quoted in the article seem to be extremely reasonable. However, > I wonder how worthwhile it would be to develop software for Idris. Although > it appears to be a fairly extensive Unix-like environment (correct?). IDRIS fully conforms to the IEEE POSIX(TM) standards. The Whitesmiths C compiler which accompanies the IDRIS PS system is a FULL ANSI C compiler. Whitesmiths Ltd, as an active members of both the POSIX and the ANSI C committees, follows the development of the purposed and the accepted standards of these committees closely. As a more down-to-earth example of how Unix(R)-like IDRIS is, suppose that you want to get a file-descriptor associated with controlling tty of your process, you do it just as you have done it under UNIX: int fd = open("/dev/tty", O_RDWR); /* O_RDWR == 2 */ IDRIS has many real-time extensions which are not available in Unix. The shared memory and message passing facilities are much more capable than those in SYS V. As a matter of fact our original sockets for the X-Windows were written using IDRIS's message passing system and timers. IDRIS uses the same patented ``set user id'' mechanism (invented by Ritchie of AT&T) as the ``real'' unices (with the permission of the AT&T). IDRIS binaries (use of special hardware notwithstanding) are compatible across machines of same processor. For example, programs generated on an OmniByte or HP 200 series, running IDRIS *WILL* run under ATARI ST running IDRIS, if no hardware specific features are used (i.e. the VDI routines in the ATARI) > I don't see a market (at least an ST/Mega market) for it. I suppose the > target market wasn't supposed to be the ST/Mega but any Unix-supporting > environment? ST/MEGA are very capable machines, and if marketed correctly will have a great future. We are working closely with a number of UNIX software vendors which are porting their software to IDRIS for ST/MEGA environment. The list is growing. These include compilers, word processors database management system, etc. Yes, IDRIS runs on a large number of computers with a variety of processors and architectures. Its first release was back in 1978 as the first V6 Unix compatible system. IDRIS is heavily used in many real-time, embedded applications. > Can you port source-level code written under Idris to other Unix machines > without modifications? Yes. Again if you are not using any hardware specific features. IDRIS for ST also has socket drivers, select and pty drivers which you do not find under SYS V. Whitesmiths C also has many hybrid library routines which you do not find in many UNIX environment, (i.e. onintr, match, amatch, pattern, getflags, getfiles, etc.) These extensions could spoil you, but if you stay generic you will not have any problems porting from IDRIS to UNIX. > > One last question: What system configuration does one need to have to use > Idris as a reasonable fast tool? I have a 20meg hd, but from what I hear > about other systems supporting flavors of Unix, the environment takes up lots > of room. This isn't really that an important a question, but I'm curious as > to Idris' size. IDRIS kernel can be as small as 135 KB (without socket, or pty drivers) or between 180 to 200 KB for a fully configured kernel. The number of system buffers could increase or decrease this size. IDRIS requires about 3 megabytes of disk for binaries. A minimum of 10 megabytes is recommended. You can run IDRIS comfortably on a 520ST (512KB) with two users. IDRIS *and* STX-Windows require about 1.5 megabytes of memory. > I also would appreciate more articles summarizing Idris. There was a writeup in the ``Product of the month'' column in the January 1988 issue of the UNIX World magazine. They have also done a product review which I believe is scheduled for April 1988 (this month). I will be writing up a more informative summary which I will post soon. > Atari's commitment to it, etc. > Tom Wolf > ARPA (I think): tw@cscosl.ncsu.edu > or wolf@csclea.ncsu.edu Computer Tools International Inc. or Whitesmiths LTD are not affiliated with the ATARI CORP. Computer Tools and Whitesmiths LTD have close working relation. The well being of IDRIS and Whitesmiths C compilers are in our best interest. I believe we can support our products better than anyone else. Skip Tavakkolian UUCP ...!uw-beaver!tikal!mcpg1!fst Computer Tools Int'l Inc. 14900 Interurban Ave. South, Suite 201 Seattle, WA 98168 (206)243-7060
landay@cory.Berkeley.EDU (James A. Landay) (07/22/88)
How much is IDRIS? How much is STX-Windows? Is there an educational
discount?
thanks,
James A. Landay
ARPA: landay@cory.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!cory!landayfst@mcgp1.UUCP (Skip Tavakkolian) (07/28/88)
In article <4603@pasteur.Berkeley.Edu>, landay@cory.Berkeley.EDU (James A. Landay) writes: > How much is IDRIS? How much is STX-Windows? Is there an educational > discount? [deleted] > James A. Landay IDRIS for ST/MEGA is $149.95 (US), STX-Windows is $49.95 (US). There is a 25% discount for educational institutions if purchased with an authorized purchase order from that institution. Please note that you will need IDRIS to run STX-Windows. Sincerely -- Fariborz ``Skip'' Tavakkolian UUCP ...!uw-beaver!tikal!mcgp1!fst UNIX is a registered trademark of AT&T
billd@Apple.COM (William Dorsey) (07/29/88)
In article <1473@mcgp1.UUCP> fst@mcgp1.UUCP (Skip Tavakkolian) writes: > >IDRIS for ST/MEGA is $149.95 (US), STX-Windows is $49.95 (US). >There is a 25% discount for educational institutions if purchased with an >authorized purchase order from that institution. Please note that you >will need IDRIS to run STX-Windows. > >Sincerely >-- >Fariborz ``Skip'' Tavakkolian Gee, I paid $600 for Idris. It didn't even come with a decent editor (ve???). I haven't received any notification through the mail about X-Windows, or any other additions to Idris (like a decent editor). I was under the impression that the reason we had to pay so much for Idris was that we were going to get lots of support! What support? I have to wait until I see a posting on the net before I find out that X-Windows (not even X11) is now available, and I'll probably have to shell out another $50 for it?! Tell me this isn't true! Bill dorsey billd@apple.com
fst@mcgp1.UUCP (Skip Tavakkolian) (08/01/88)
In article <14895@apple.Apple.COM>, billd@Apple.COM (William Dorsey) writes: > In article <1473@mcgp1.UUCP> fst@mcgp1.UUCP (Skip Tavakkolian) writes: >>IDRIS for ST/MEGA is $149.95 (US), STX-Windows is $49.95 (US). >>There is a 25% discount for educational institutions if purchased with an >>authorized purchase order from that institution. Please note that you >>will need IDRIS to run STX-Windows. > Gee, I paid $600 for Idris. It didn't even come with a decent editor (ve???). > I haven't received any notification through the mail about X-Windows, or any > other additions to Idris (like a decent editor). I was under the impression > that the reason we had to pay so much for Idris was that we were going to get > lots of support! What support? I have to wait until I see a posting on the > net before I find out that X-Windows (not even X11) is now available, and I'll > probably have to shell out another $50 for it?! Tell me this isn't true! > > Bill dorsey billd@apple.com You may not have to!! The price you paid includes the Whitesmiths C compiler. We had a price change which I posted about 2, or 3 months ago. IDRIS ST with Whitesmiths C compiler and libraries, Pascal compiler and libraries and STX-Windows is $600, which is what you have minus the STX-Window, and Pascal compiler. If you have software maintenance support (i.e. sent in the registeration card and have signed for annual maintenance), or have IDRIS 3.11 or later, you will get the STX-Windows and documentation, plus the kernel to support it, for the cost of the media, and handling (5 micro floppies). In regards to support, it means if you encounter a problem, you can call us, and we will either solve the problem right-away, or enter it into the bugs-to-be-fixed basket (overseas customers are responded to via fax). The more sever a ``real'' bug, the faster it gets tended to. I usually try to post most of the important news about our ST related products to this news group, without taking too much of the bandwidth. We will try to be more ``marketing'' oriented in the futurer; I however, suggest that our customer call or write us every few months and ask us about the new and upcoming things, and we will give you latest. The public domain libraries include much better editors like microGNU-emacs and Stevie editors. They also include things IDRIS is lacking, like Gawk. PD disks include all sources and are $4 per diskette. I would like to apologize to our customers for not having better means of informing them of price changes and software updates, and our only excuse is that we have limited resources and the condition of the ST/MEGA market does not warrant the additional resources (to say it nicely :-) ). Sincerely -- Fariborz ``Skip'' Tavakkolian UUCP ...!uw-beaver!tikal!mcgp1!fst UNIX is a registered trademark of AT&T
fst@mcgp1.UUCP (Skip Tavakkolian) (08/03/88)
In article <495@mks.UUCP>, wheels@mks.UUCP (Gerry Wheeler) writes: > In article <1473@mcgp1.UUCP>, fst@mcgp1.UUCP (Skip Tavakkolian) writes: > > IDRIS for ST/MEGA is $149.95 (US), STX-Windows is $49.95 (US). > Is this a new price? The reason I didn't look very hard at Idris was the > $800 or so price it had. Does that $149.95 price include a C compiler > and so forth? The $149.95 (US) price does NOT include the Whitesmiths C compiler. It includes the mulit-user, multi-tasking executive and the utilities (about 80 or so), standard drivers, and drivers needed to run STX-Windows (sockets, ptys, etc.) IDRIS + WSL C + STX-Windows + Pascal + 68020 libs for the ST/MEGA is $600 (US). This is called a Professional System (PS). > > So, if Idris is really that cheap, maybe we should compare it to Minix. > Anybody familiar with both? Any of the Minix beta testers around? Could > you give us some comments? I made an offer a few weeks ago to send a Review copy of IDRIS PS to a prominent member of this news group for one or two months with the condition that, that person would post their opinion and general impression of the products to this news group. > -- > Gerry Wheeler Phone: (519)884-2251 > Mortice Kern Systems Inc. UUCP: uunet!watmath!mks!wheels > 35 King St. North BIX: join mks > Waterloo, Ontario N2J 2W9 CompuServe: 73260,1043 Are you interested? Sincerely -- Fariborz ``Skip'' Tavakkolian UUCP ...!uw-beaver!tikal!mcgp1!fst UNIX is a registered trademark of AT&T
wolf@csclea.ncsu.edu (Thomas Wolf) (08/04/88)
In article <1473@mcgp1.UUCP> fst@mcgp1.UUCP (Skip Tavakkolian) writes: >In article <4603@pasteur.Berkeley.Edu>, landay@cory.Berkeley.EDU (James A. Landay) writes: >> How much is IDRIS? How much is STX-Windows? Is there an educational >> discount? >[deleted] >> James A. Landay > >IDRIS for ST/MEGA is $149.95 (US), STX-Windows is $49.95 (US). >There is a 25% discount for educational institutions if purchased with an >authorized purchase order from that institution. Please note that you >will need IDRIS to run STX-Windows. Will IDRIS (and X-Windows) run on a 1040ST? Also, what version of X is STX-Windows compatible with? Tom Wolf Tom Wolf ARPA (I think): tw@cscosl.ncsu.edu or wolf@csclea.ncsu.edu
fst@mcgp1.UUCP (Skip Tavakkolian) (08/07/88)
In article <2054@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu>, wolf@csclea.ncsu.edu (Thomas Wolf) writes: > Will IDRIS (and X-Windows) run on a 1040ST? Also, what version of X is > STX-Windows compatible with? > Tom Wolf > ARPA (I think): tw@cscosl.ncsu.edu > or wolf@csclea.ncsu.edu STX-Windows runs on the 1040 ST and the 520 ST. It however, requires a minimum of 1 MB (for IDRIS, STX server and one xterm). We recommend at least 1.5 MB. That would allow about two or three xterm sessions, and of-course xclock :-) The current production version of STX-Windows is X10.4. Sincerely -- Fariborz ``Skip'' Tavakkolian UUCP ...!uw-beaver!tikal!mcgp1!fst UNIX is a registered trademark of AT&T
ljdickey@water.waterloo.edu (L.J.Dickey) (05/26/90)
One week ago, In article <1990May18.132928.11161@water.waterloo.edu> ljdickey@water.waterloo.edu I wrote: >I wonder how this OS-9 stuff compares with IDRIS . > >IDRIS has been available for the ST for several years. > ... >I would be intererested to hear from any users about their experience >with IDRIS. I would be more interested to hear comparisons between >IDRIS and OS/9. This is just to report that I have had no responses from anyone who has had their hands on IDRIS. If there were any IDRIS buyers, they seem not to be on the net now. What a pity. I had the impression at the time that IDRIS was ahead of its time. Someone wrote and asked the address for Whitesmiths. I do not have it.
deichert@hydra.unm.edu (Diana Eichert) (05/26/90)
>> ... >>I would be intererested to hear from any users about their experience >>with IDRIS. I would be more interested to hear comparisons between >>IDRIS and OS/9. > > >This is just to report that I have had no responses from anyone >who has had their hands on IDRIS. If there were any IDRIS >buyers, they seem not to be on the net now. What a pity. >I had the impression at the time that IDRIS was ahead of >its time. > >Someone wrote and asked the address for Whitesmiths. >I do not have it. I had an evaluation copy of IDRIS back in the fall of '87, it was the full up developers version with the C & Pascal compilers also. I didn't really do much with it as I did not win the contract that I had proposed using the ST with IDRIS. Whitesmith did not do the port for the ST, it was done by a company in the Seattle area called Computer Tools International. At one of the Comdex's many years ago Atari made lots of fan fair on how IDRIS was going to be the official UNIX-type OS for the ST AND then they promptly dropped it. X-windows Rev. 10 was also ported to IDRIS by Computer Tools. This all I can remember as this is close to a 2.5 year memory. diana eichert Yrisarri Systems deichert@hydra.unm.edu
fst@gtenmc.UUCP (Fariborz "Skip" Tavakkolian) (06/10/90)
In article <2879@ariel.unm.edu> deichert@hydra.unm.edu (Diana Eichert) writes: >>> ... >>>I would be intererested to hear from any users about their experience >>>with IDRIS. I would be more interested to hear comparisons between >>>IDRIS and OS/9. [deleted] >I had an evaluation copy of IDRIS back in the fall of '87, it was the full >up developers version with the C & Pascal compilers also. I didn't really >do much with it as I did not win the contract that I had proposed using >the ST with IDRIS. >Whitesmith did not do the port for the ST, it was done by a company in the >Seattle area called Computer Tools International. At one of the Comdex's >many years ago Atari made lots of fan fair on how IDRIS was going to be the >official UNIX-type OS for the ST AND then they promptly dropped it. >X-windows Rev. 10 was also ported to IDRIS by Computer Tools. This all >I can remember as this is close to a 2.5 year memory. >diana eichert >deichert@hydra.unm.edu Well, Computer Tools and IDRIS-ST are still alive and mostly selling in Europe. Computer Tools ported the liberated BSD networking software (TCP/IP and the ``r'' utilities) to IDRIS and IDRIS-ST over a year ago and the overseas customer for whom the port was done, seems to be very satisfied with it. Unfortunately nobody else could use this code on the ST/MEGA since there are no ethernet cards (other than the handful that Computer Tools built) commercially available for these machines. One could still use the SL/IP to hookup to VAXen and such. X11R3 is ported to the IDRIS-ST, but due to the size of X11 not very realistic for use in this environment. I was thinking of porting the Bellcore MGR window system to the IDRIS-ST, since it is much smaller and well suited for ST/MEGAs; I never did continue with it since ATARI ST/MEGA systems seem to be dying a slow death. Europe seems to be more interested in doing ``real'' stuff with IDRIS than U.S., perhaps due to price of computers. To the original poster: If you are interested, send for information to this e-mail address: tiny1!pat@gtenmc Hope this helps Skip -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fariborz "Skip" Tavakkolian -of- Automated Cellular Engineering Currently consulting -at- GTE Telecom, Inc. Bothell, Wa Mail: tiny1!fst@mcgp1 -or- fst@gtenmc