pdbeam@watserv1.waterloo.edu (T.C.) (06/05/90)
ATARI OFFICIALLY LAUNCHES THE TT 030
------------------------------------
THIS IS NOT AN ATARI PRESS RELEASE--I HAVE NO CONNECTION TO ATARI.
THE OPINIONS BELOW ARE MY OWN AND NOT NECESSARILY THOSE OF U OF W.
I went to the official North American launch of the Atari TT 030 last
night in Toronto. The TT 030 will be available in limited quantities in
Canada in late July/early August and fully available in September. The TT
will be officially launched in the US at Comdex in November. I guess Atari is
using Canada as a test market to work the bugs out of the system before they
make their big push south of the border. The expected price of the TT 030
(2Mbytes, 40M hard disc) is under $4000 (CDN). This puts it well under the
Amiga 3000 in terms of price (the A3000 is under $4000 US).
The presentation I was at was for Ontario educators. Earlier in the day
there were presentations to the press, developers, and user's groups. Some of
these earlier meetings were attended by Sam Tramiel and other Atari US
bigwigs. The educator meeting was attended by the Atari Canada general
manager and some sales managers.
TT Workstation Specifications (from an Atari Canada brochure)
-----------------------------
68030 CPU running at 16MHz (optional MC 68881/MC68882)
2Mbytes RAM expandable to 8Mbytes (26Mbytes using 4Mbit DRAMs)
Built in 1.44Mbyte 3.5" floppy
40Mbyte (28ms) Hard Disc
RGB and Monochrome Monitor Support (I saw it running a Multisync)
4096 Colour pallette, 320x200 to 320x480 with 256 colours
640x480 with 16 colours
640x400 with 2 colours (ST Hi-res)
1280x960 monochrome
Detatchable keyboard with joystick and mouse ports
SCSI and ACSI DMA ports
2 RS-232 ports (expandable to 4)
Parallel and MIDI ports
AppleTalk Interface
1 internal A24/D16 VME card slot
8-bit PCM Stereo sound
RT Clock
The TT 030 comes with TOS 2.0 which will be compatible with most existing ST
software. ST software runs about 1/3 faster on the TT 030. Software compiled
specifically for the 68030 (as opposed to ST software compiled for the 68000)
runs MUCH faster at 16MHz with 32-bit through-put (sorry, no benchmarks, yet).
So far both Borland and Mark Williams will be producing 68030 C compilers for
the TT. Apparently GNU C from the network will also compile better code on
the TT than on the ST. Existing ST software can be re-compiled to run at
full-speed on the TT. While ST software will run just fine on the TT, it will
have to be re-compiled to take advantage of the TT extra capabilities (Math
co-processor and enhanced video).
UNIX V will be available for TT in the fall. Contrary to the report in STart,
the TT 030 WILL run Unix.
In the near future ISD will be releasing TT versions of DynaCADD and Calamus.
At the presentation we were shown the TT 030 running ST DynaCADD and the
system was noticably faster. When a TT does ST med-res, the screen has
approx. 2cm borders on either side and the picture runs off the bottom of the
screen. The aspect ratio is quite elongated top-to-bottom.
Later this year the tower TT (the TT/X?) will be released. Among other
things, the tower TT will have four VME slots. Also to be released are an
Ethernet card, a GENlock card, and a software IBM PC emulator. The Atari GM
said that Spectre GCR is being ported to the TT now. Presently the TT 030 has
the same GENlock capability as an STE.
Atari made no mention of their marketing intentions to us, but then again we
were educators and they probably didn't think we'd be interested. I brought
the issue up with an Atari official and he told me they were addressing the
problem.
Also announced was the fact that Atari is now GEMS authorised to sell their
PC-Compatible computers to the Ontatio Ministry of Education schools. This is
a very positive step. Atari says they are considering submitting the TT to
the Ministry for similar approval.
I think Atari still have a lot of promises to keep (UNIX, hardware cards,
software), but if they do then I think the TT will be a strong machine with
good prospects in the future. It certainly gives the Mac II and A3000 (not to
mention Sun) a run for their money in terms of providing a platform for UNIX.
Travis Capener
c/o pdbeam@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca
-- jdutka@wpi.wpi.edu (John Dutka) (06/06/90)
In article <1990Jun5.143231.4977@watserv1.waterloo.edu> pdbeam@watserv1.waterloo.edu (T.C.) writes: >(2Mbytes, 40M hard disc) is under $4000 (CDN). This puts it well under the >Amiga 3000 in terms of price (the A3000 is under $4000 US). No! The Amiga 3000/16MHz with the 16MHz 68030/68881 goes for $2599 under the Educational Discount, and the 25MHZ 68030/68882 is $3039 under the discount. The 3000/16 has basically the same features, but can address up to 1.7 Gigabytes.
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (06/06/90)
In article <1990Jun5.143231.4977@watserv1.waterloo.edu> pdbeam@watserv1.waterloo.edu (T.C.) writes: > >ATARI OFFICIALLY LAUNCHES THE TT 030 >------------------------------------ >using Canada as a test market to work the bugs out of the system before they >make their big push south of the border. The expected price of the TT 030 >(2Mbytes, 40M hard disc) is under $4000 (CDN). This puts it well under the >Amiga 3000 in terms of price (the A3000 is under $4000 US). You get what you pay for. Judging by the specs you give later in the article, the TT does seem to be a significant step over the ST (but I suppose it should for that kind of money), but I really don't think it is a threat to the Amy 3000 or Sun workstations. All of these gadgets that are said to be available RSN (real soon now) for the TT: including PC emulation, Mac emulation, networking capabilities are nice, but based on Atari's previous antics I will believe all that when I see it. BTW, $4000 CDN is only slightly less than $3000 USD. That is the price of the A3000 16mhz machine. However, the A3000 is bundled with a multisync monitor, a 68881, a faster hard drive, and more expansion slots. This isn't really intended to be a "go out an buy the Amiga, the TT sucks" type of posting, but I'm just trying to point out that the TT isn't really breaking any new ground out there in price or performance areas. 68030 technology has been available on other platforms for quite a while now. To each his own...I'm sure there are many ST users who will be more than satisfied with the TT, but I don't think it will have the wider appeal of other 68030 systems due to its rather limited expanability and Atari's notorious reputation for forcing users to buy new machines to get higher tech rather than providing a reasonable upgrade path. For all you ST diehards, flame away. My mailbox is open. >screen. The aspect ratio is quite elongated top-to-bottom. > >Later this year the tower TT (the TT/X?) will be released. Among other >things, the tower TT will have four VME slots. Also to be released are an >Ethernet card, a GENlock card, and a software IBM PC emulator. The Atari GM And if you believe this...Tell you what, I can see the Brooklyn Bridge from my office window and I see a for sale sign hanging on it. You can leave deposits with me... :-) >Atari made no mention of their marketing intentions to us, but then again we Marketing? hehe... > >I think Atari still have a lot of promises to keep (UNIX, hardware cards, >software), but if they do then I think the TT will be a strong machine with No argument there. The problem is that Atari Corp's record on kept promises is just plain weak. I do hope they pull it off so I can unload the 400 shares of Atari stock I bought at 4 7/8. > >Travis Capener >c/o pdbeam@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca >-- Cheers, Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |Donde hay una cerveza cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |hay un plan. (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null |El Guerrero Aereo es el rey! ------------------------------+---------------------------
watters@anaconda.cis.ohio-state.edu (david r watters) (06/06/90)
In article <13266@wpi.wpi.edu> jdutka@wpi.wpi.edu (John Dutka) writes: >In article <1990Jun5.143231.4977@watserv1.waterloo.edu> pdbeam@watserv1.waterloo.edu (T.C.) writes: >>(2Mbytes, 40M hard disc) is under $4000 (CDN). This puts it well under the >>Amiga 3000 in terms of price (the A3000 is under $4000 US). > >No! The Amiga 3000/16MHz with the 16MHz 68030/68881 goes for $2599 under the >Educational Discount, and the 25MHZ 68030/68882 is $3039 under the discount. >The 3000/16 has basically the same features, but can address up to 1.7 >Gigabytes. Do not forget that the above includes a great Multisync monitor, AmigaVision and Wordperfect, all todether. A 1yr. waranty. To say that the TT gives a 1/3 speed increase to non-030 code is a joke! On a A2500/030 people get a 8.7-9.2 times the speed of a stock A2000 increase, it is only larger on an A3000. And don't forget all the networking cards.... Apple Talk? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! dw
jason@cs.odu.edu (Jason C Austin) (06/06/90)
In article <13266@wpi.wpi.edu> jdutka@wpi.wpi.edu (John Dutka) writes: -> In article <1990Jun5.143231.4977@watserv1.waterloo.edu> pdbeam@watserv1.waterloo.edu (T.C.) writes: -> >(2Mbytes, 40M hard disc) is under $4000 (CDN). This puts it well under the -> >Amiga 3000 in terms of price (the A3000 is under $4000 US). -> -> No! The Amiga 3000/16MHz with the 16MHz 68030/68881 goes for $2599 under the -> Educational Discount, and the 25MHZ 68030/68882 is $3039 under the discount. -> The 3000/16 has basically the same features, but can address up to 1.7 -> Gigabytes. I wonder if atari will be offering an educational discount for any of their machines. I'm not sure what the current exchange rate is but the two machines will probably end up being in the same price range. With some added memory and running UNIX, this might end up being a pretty nice machine, especially with all of the UNIX software that's available. -- -- Jason C. Austin jason@cs.odu.edu
don@vax1.acs.udel.EDU (Donald R Lloyd) (06/06/90)
In article <1990Jun5.143231.4977@watserv1.waterloo.edu> pdbeam@watserv1.waterloo.edu (T.C.) writes: > >ATARI OFFICIALLY LAUNCHES THE TT 030 >------------------------------------ > >Canada in late July/early August and fully available in September. The TT >(2Mbytes, 40M hard disc) is under $4000 (CDN). This puts it well under the >Amiga 3000 in terms of price (the A3000 is under $4000 US). > Under CBM's educational discount, an Amiga 3000 with 25MHz '030, '882, 40 meg 11ms HD, and color multiscan monitor can be had for $3039. The 16 MHz model (w/68881) costs $2599, HD and monitor included. I see two main advantages the TT has over the 3000, based on the specs you quoted: the 1280 x 960 mono mode and the built-in appletalk. The Amiga with an A2024 mono monitor can do 1280 x 800, which just about (but maybe not quite) nullifies the first advantage. As for the second, lack of a reliable appletalk system for the Amiga does present a problem; however, things like ethernet boards and X-windows have been around for some time, and CBM's own ethernet and arcnet cards, as well as Novell-compatible software, will be shipping shortly. I hope Atari and CBM both do well with their 030 machines (if only to slow the sales of PC's and Macs :-). At this point though, it looks as if Atari's got to do some hard work to compete well against the 3000. -- Gibberish .sig for sale or lease. is spoken Contact don@vax1.acs.udel.edu for more information. here. DISCLAIMER: It's all YOUR fault.
riddler@iesd.auc.dk (Claus Priisholm) (06/06/90)
In article <1990Jun5.182949.2439@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: In article <1990Jun5.143231.4977@watserv1.waterloo.edu> pdbeam@watserv1.waterloo.edu (T.C.) writes: > >ATARI OFFICIALLY LAUNCHES THE TT 030 >------------------------------------ >using Canada as a test market to work the bugs out of the system before they >make their big push south of the border. The expected price of the TT 030 >(2Mbytes, 40M hard disc) is under $4000 (CDN). This puts it well under the You get what you pay for. Judging by the specs you give later in the article, the TT does seem to be a significant step over the ST (but I suppose it should for that kind of money), but I really don't think it is a threat to the Amy 3000 or Sun workstations. All of these gadgets that are said to be available RSN (real soon now) for the [...] This isn't really intended to be a "go out an buy the Amiga, the TT sucks" type of posting, but I'm just trying to point out that the TT isn't really breaking any new ground out there in Well I am not impressed with the specifications of the TT, but don't give me this `amy 300 and Sun Workstations'. Agree that the TT isn't a thread to the Sun workstation, but compared to the A3000 it should stand a good chance. The reviews I have seen so far of the A3000 (Byte, c't and PCW) are not flattering: A multi-media machine with 32 colors :-( 7Mhz graphic accelerator chips :-( 2 wait states fast-ram :-( Guru meditations :-( To each his own...I'm sure there are many ST users who will be more than satisfied with the TT, but I don't think it will have the wider appeal of other 68030 systems due to its rather limited expanability and Atari's notorious reputation for forcing users to buy new machines to get higher tech rather than providing a reasonable upgrade path. For all you ST diehards, flame away. My mailbox is open. No flames, just reasonable unbiased information. I agree on the conclusion that ST-owners will by TT's, but the same applies to A3000: amiga-owners will by A3000's. [...] >Later this year the tower TT (the TT/X?) will be released. Among other >things, the tower TT will have four VME slots. Also to be released are an >Ethernet card, a GENlock card, and a software IBM PC emulator. The Atari GM [...] No argument there. The problem is that Atari Corp's record on kept promises is just plain weak. I do hope they pull it off so I can unload the 400 shares of Atari stock I bought at 4 7/8. Well, they make many promises and they launch many computers. Let's compare: - Both Atari and C= has a full PC-line (down the drain). - Atari launched the Portfolio PC, C= well... - Atari has the 520, 1040, MEGA's & STE, C= has A500, A1000, A2000 & A2500, draw! - Atari has launched a portable ST, C= has the portable Am... Ahem, well... - Atari launched their Transputer Workstation, C= has - what can I say... - Atari still has to launch the TT, C= has launched the A3000, hurraaa! UNIX? I believe the TT was running UNIX at CeBit in Hannover, and the fairly high resolution in monochrome, is a better platform for X-windows, than 4096 colours hold-and-modify mode at a medium resolution. So when it comes to UNIX, I would prefer the TT (but still more I would like it to use a 25 MHz 68040 and the Blossom graphics chip). >Travis Capener >c/o pdbeam@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca >-- Cheers, Chris Well this turned out to be quite a long posting, but I've been reading so much crap lately, with pros and cons of this and that, and even worse: stock information :^(. So I figured it was my turn to float the net. ************************************************* ******* *********** * Claus Priisholm * ******* *********** * Department for Mathematics & Computer Science * ******* *********** * Aalborg University Center * * Denmark * ******* *********** * E-mail: riddler@iesd.auc.dk * ******* *********** ************************************************* ******* ***********
ins_bac@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Ajay Choudhri) (06/06/90)
In article <1990Jun5.143231.4977@watserv1.waterloo.edu> pdbeam@watserv1.waterloo.edu (T.C.) writes: >ATARI OFFICIALLY LAUNCHES THE TT 030 >------------------------------------ >THIS IS NOT AN ATARI PRESS RELEASE--I HAVE NO CONNECTION TO ATARI. >THE OPINIONS BELOW ARE MY OWN AND NOT NECESSARILY THOSE OF U OF W. Well I thank you anyway, it would have been nice if Atari posted a release but that's not important, information is good.... > I went to the official North American launch of the Atari TT 030 last >night in Toronto. The TT 030 will be available in limited quantities in >Canada in late July/early August and fully available in September. The TT >will be officially launched in the US at Comdex in November. I guess Atari is >using Canada as a test market to work the bugs out of the system before they >make their big push south of the border. The expected price of the TT 030 >(2Mbytes, 40M hard disc) is under $4000 (CDN). This puts it well under the >Amiga 3000 in terms of price (the A3000 is under $4000 US). I assume that the 4000 dollar price was list/no educational?? I guess it about time, but if the price is reasonable, I will buy it because its a helluva lot cheaper than a base 16Mhz IIcx. > The presentation I was at was for Ontario educators. Earlier in the day >there were presentations to the press, developers, and user's groups. Some of >these earlier meetings were attended by Sam Tramiel and other Atari US >bigwigs. The educator meeting was attended by the Atari Canada general >manager and some sales managers. Hmmmm, for educators, does that mean an implied educational discount?? That would be EXCELLENT, if it was competetive. > >TT Workstation Specifications (from an Atari Canada brochure) >----------------------------- >68030 CPU running at 16MHz (optional MC 68881/MC68882) No 25Mhz version?? I assume the coprocessor are pluggable?? Or is it a separate card?? >2Mbytes RAM expandable to 8Mbytes (26Mbytes using 4Mbit DRAMs) Hopefully SIMM's, makes life much easier no?? >Built in 1.44Mbyte 3.5" floppy >40Mbyte (28ms) Hard Disc > >RGB and Monochrome Monitor Support (I saw it running a Multisync) >4096 Colour pallette, 320x200 to 320x480 with 256 colours >640x480 with 16 colours >640x400 with 2 colours (ST Hi-res) >1280x960 monochrome Could be better, but I will assume there are video card options, the monitor should have no problems... >Detatchable keyboard with joystick and mouse ports > >SCSI and ACSI DMA ports >2 RS-232 ports (expandable to 4) >Parallel and MIDI ports >AppleTalk Interface >1 internal A24/D16 VME card slot >8-bit PCM Stereo sound >RT Clock No ethernet?? that is surprising.. with only one slot, you either get better video or an accepted network interface..Pretty Good still. > >The TT 030 comes with TOS 2.0 which will be compatible with most existing ST >software. ST software runs about 1/3 faster on the TT 030. Software compiled >specifically for the 68030 (as opposed to ST software compiled for the 68000) >runs MUCH faster at 16MHz with 32-bit through-put (sorry, no benchmarks, yet). >So far both Borland and Mark Williams will be producing 68030 C compilers for >the TT. Apparently GNU C from the network will also compile better code on >the TT than on the ST. Existing ST software can be re-compiled to run at >full-speed on the TT. While ST software will run just fine on the TT, it will >have to be re-compiled to take advantage of the TT extra capabilities (Math >co-processor and enhanced video). Along with the large base of ST software there is no reason to doubt this machine, and with excellent developers like Dave Small and Jim Allen This machine probably has no bounds unless Atari made them non-upgradeable.. >Atari made no mention of their marketing intentions to us, but then again we >were educators and they probably didn't think we'd be interested. I brought >the issue up with an Atari official and he told me they were addressing the >problem. I guess the question of educational discounts are still up in air. I dont have money falling out of pockets and I really WANT a better computer That has decent subtitling, graphics and speed.(sound would be nice..) > >Travis Capener >c/o pdbeam@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca >-- I guess I am done with my illusory optimism but hell, what more can Atari do to dump the US market. I have heard that CERTAIN developers have had TT's for a while...GOOD.. now I want one..... Now time for my sig... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ajay Choudhri(Vidiot) C&P 301-467-4223 ins_bac@Jhunix.bitnet ins_bac@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu ins_bac@jhunix.UUCP !uunet!aplcen!jhunix!ins_bac UNLV, New York Yankees, Dallas Cowboys, NJ Devils, NJ Nets, and Man United rule -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- line fodder follows, feel free to skip it..unless you like reading such snuff. . . . . . . . .oops skipped one... . . . .
wolf@cbnewsh.att.com (thomas.wolf) (06/06/90)
In article <1990Jun5.143231.4977@watserv1.waterloo.edu> pdbeam@watserv1.waterloo.edu (T.C.) writes: ...deleted stuff... >It certainly gives the Mac II and A3000 (not to >mention Sun) a run for their money in terms of providing a platform for UNIX. I have only one comment on this otherwise excellent posting. I'm really disappointed in the TT's graphics resolution! I don't believe for a second that the TT (or any 386/486 for that matter) can compete with SUN/HP/DEC in the UNIX workstation market. It has too little standard memory, too little standard hard-disk capacity, and (at least the posting makes no mention of) no 16+'' color monitor (not to speak of the lack of color resolution past 640x400.) Have you ever tried running multiple X apps on a 14'' monitor? (I know, I know, you can always buy these 3rd party...but what a hassle). Tom -- +-------------------------------------+ "Stupid" questions are better than | Tom Wolf | (201) 949-2079 | no questions at all. No answer is | Bell Labs, NJ | wolf@spanky.att.com | better than a stupid one. +-------------------------------------+
wolf@cbnewsh.att.com (thomas.wolf) (06/06/90)
In article <81214@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> david r watters <watters@cis.ohio-state.edu> writes: > >To say that the TT gives a 1/3 speed increase to non-030 code is a joke! > >On a A2500/030 people get a 8.7-9.2 times the speed of a stock A2000 increase, >it is only larger on an A3000. [Flame on] Could you contain your mindless ravings? The poster mentioned that 1/3 increases were with non-030 applications (ie those written for the MC68000). I seriously doubt your claim that a ~9-fold increase was achieved on the A2500 WITHOUT optimizing the code towards a 68030. -- +-------------------------------------+ "Stupid" questions are better than | Tom Wolf | (201) 949-2079 | no questions at all. No answer is | Bell Labs, NJ | wolf@spanky.att.com | better than a stupid one. +-------------------------------------+
onders@escher.ipl.rpi.edu (Timothy E. Onders) (06/06/90)
In article <6575@vax1.acs.udel.EDU> don@vax1.udel.edu (Donald R Lloyd) writes: > Under CBM's educational discount, an Amiga 3000 with 25MHz '030, '882, >40 meg 11ms HD, and color multiscan monitor can be had for $3039. > The 16 MHz model (w/68881) costs $2599, HD and monitor included. > Would someone please start quoting REAL prices for C= machines? Not everyone qualifies for the educational discount. Under your reasoning, it could be said that the Atari TT only costs $2000 CDN under the Atari Developer's discount. And, for that matter, WordPerfect is $99 under student discount, but $299 list. Don't fudge figures. -Tim Onders onders@ipl.rpi.edu
pdbeam@watserv1.waterloo.edu (T.C.) (06/06/90)
I'd like to clarify something I said in my earlier post. I said that the TT 030(under $4000 CDN) was cheaper than the A3000 (under $4000 US). Please keep in mind that $4000 CDN translates into about $3200 US. On the topic of educational discounts from Atari... This issue was brought up many times during the course of evening. Atari Canadacan offer their PC's at educational prices (because they are Ministry of Ed approved), but only by going through the tender process. Individual discounts go through dealers and if Atari have a policy I did not hear about it. Travis Capener c/o PDBEAM@watserv1.waterloo.edu --
jhenders@van-bc.wimsey.bc.ca (John Henders) (06/06/90)
Not everyone can get the educational discount,whereas anyone who can find an Atari dearler [ ;-) ] can buy the TT for under 4000$ canadian. Just curious here,but I'd like to know...Do you Amiga guys grep the comp.sys.atari newsgroup to make sure noone's saying bad things about the Amiga. half a ;-). john henders
scott@cs.odu.edu (Scott Yelich) (06/06/90)
>ATARI OFFICIALLY LAUNCHES THE TT 030 >------------------------------------ Why do I find that funny? >> Under CBM's educational discount, an Amiga 3000 with 25MHz '030, '882, >>40 meg 11ms HD, and color multiscan monitor can be had for $3039. >>The 16 MHz model (w/68881) costs $2599, HD and monitor included. >I see two main advantages the TT has over the 3000, based on the specs you [DELETED] > I hope Atari and CBM both do well with their 030 machines (if only to >slow the sales of PC's and Macs :-). At this point though, it looks as if >Atari's got to do some hard work to compete well against the 3000. I don't know about other people... but when I shell out hundreds of dollars for software this year, I will not likely want to throw it away next year. The advantage that the TT MAY have over the CBM machines is that it will still run old Atari ST/8bit software. Yes, I get sick dreams of an Amiga with the ST emulator card running some bastardized Spectre MACulator gadget running some hacked IBM emulator running a another emulator.... etc. My personal opinion is that you need to buy a computer to do something. If the computer you bought does what you need, then it was a good purchase. If the computer you bought does not do what you need, it was a bad purchase. My ST does what I want. At one point I had some 500+ Atari 8bit disks. The ST was rumoured to run some 8bit stuff. The price was also right. Perhaps the Amiga did have, at that time, 50% more colors-- I already had a software base. Now that I have an ST with a bunch of software, it will take a lot for me to throw it all away and switch to a computer that I know nothing about, and that is ANY computer, not just Amiga. Does it really matter which computer is better when either will do what you want? With the way computer technology is advancing, I seriously doubt that I will spend MY money to buy another computer until at least 1993-1994. The minute you buy something it is old technology-- and I know this will always be true. At one point the old-technology of the future will be significantly advanced compared to the technology of that past that you are using-- and that is the time to buy... I am tired of seeing Amiga is better/cheaper. Great, sue me because I bought an ST and I like the machine that is worse and more expensive. If you think about how little we actually know about all of our machines and how little we actually use their potential, you will see that all of this machine comparison and bickering is a useless waste of time and we should be spending our time hacking our machines instead. Scott ps: enough on the ST-report-scam thread, it's dead.
riley@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Daniel S. Riley) (06/06/90)
In article <1990Jun6.044350.20403@cbnewsh.att.com> wolf@cbnewsh.att.com (thomas.wolf) writes: >Could you contain your mindless ravings? The poster mentioned that 1/3 >increases were with non-030 applications (ie those written for the MC68000). >I seriously doubt your claim that a ~9-fold increase was achieved on the A2500 >WITHOUT optimizing the code towards a 68030. That wasn't mindless ravings. Seriously, that 1/3 number confuses me--it should be lots higher. Going from a 16 bit to 32 bit machine and doubling the clock speed (8 MHz to 16 MHz) should give you at least a factor of 4, and then some because the '30 takes fewer clocks to do some things. There aren't that many new opcodes or addressing modes for the '30, so the speed increase from recompiling for a '30 should be relatively small (unless you're doing lots of floating point, in which case the coprocessor gives you a whopping big factor). Serious question--why is it so small? Is that 1/3 correct? Do they have to do something ugly for backward compatibility, like turn off all the caches and force the '30 to do 16-bit accesses unless the program says that it is '30 compatible? Finally, the TT probably should be compared to the 16 MHz A3000, since the TT is 16 MHz. List US price for a 16 MHz A3000 with 2 Meg RAM, 40 Meg hard disk, 68881, and no monitor, is $3300 (US). 25 MHz A3000 is $4000 US, which is probably what the original poster was thinking of. -Dan Riley (riley@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu, cornell!batcomputer!riley) -Wilson Lab, Cornell University
grahamt@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Graham Thomas) (06/07/90)
From article <RIDDLER.90Jun5234617@aiken.iesd.auc.dk>, by riddler@iesd.auc.dk (Claus Priisholm): > > > >ATARI OFFICIALLY LAUNCHES THE TT 030 > >------------------------------------ > For what it's worth, Atari AND several developers were showing the TT030 at the Atari Show in London on June 1-3. The base price for a 2mb/40mbHD version, including a VGA-standard colour monitor, was said to be 1995 pound (+15% value-added tax). They said it will be out there after July, but we all know what that means. Graham -- Graham Thomas, SPRU, Mantell Building, U of Sussex, Brighton, BN1 9RF, UK JANET: grahamt@uk.ac.sussex.syma BITNET: grahamt%syma.sussex.ac.uk@UKACRL INTERNET: grahamt%syma.sussex.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk UUCP: grahamt%syma.sussex@ukc.uucp PHONE: +44 273 686758 FAX: [..] 685865
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (06/07/90)
In article <482@van-bc.wimsey.bc.ca> jhenders@van-bc.wimsey.bc.ca (John Henders) writes: > > Not everyone can get the educational discount,whereas anyone who can find >an Atari dearler [ ;-) ] can buy the TT for under 4000$ canadian. > Just curious here,but I'd like to know...Do you Amiga guys grep the >comp.sys.atari newsgroup to make sure noone's saying bad things about the >Amiga. half a ;-). Just for your info, the A3000 25mhz,68882 machine RETAILS for $3995. That is only slightly higher than the price quoted for the TT. As noted earlier, the price is $3000 with a educaitonal discount. I think I wouldn't mind paying a little extra for the better math coprocessor, faster bus, and faster 68030. I think many Atari and Amiga owners read both groups since the machines are very similar, I suspect they both attract the same crowd. I know a few people who have both machines. >john henders Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |Donde hay una cerveza cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |hay un plan. (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null |El Guerrero Aereo es el rey! ------------------------------+---------------------------
oleg@crash.cts.com (Oleg Rovner) (06/07/90)
The TT sounds like a decent machine if one isn't overly concerned about expansion. With its specs, sounds like Atari Inc has invented the Mac SE/30. OR
jshekhel@feds19.prime.com (Jerry Shekhel ) (06/08/90)
In article <10373@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu> (Daniel S. Riley) writes: > >That wasn't mindless ravings. Seriously, that 1/3 number confuses me--it >should be lots higher. Going from a 16 bit to 32 bit machine and doubling >the clock speed (8 MHz to 16 MHz) should give you at least a factor of 4, >and then some because the '30 takes fewer clocks to do some things. > Not really, becase at 16 MHz, an uncached system is no longer zero-wait, unless you use 60ns DRAMs, which I doubt these machines will use. Am I wrong about this? I'd like to know for sure. -- JJS
rehrauer@apollo.HP.COM (Steve Rehrauer) (06/08/90)
In article <1990Jun5.143231.4977@watserv1.waterloo.edu> pdbeam@watserv1.waterloo.edu (T.C.) writes: >THIS IS NOT AN ATARI PRESS RELEASE--I HAVE NO CONNECTION TO ATARI. >THE OPINIONS BELOW ARE MY OWN AND NOT NECESSARILY THOSE OF U OF W. > > I went to the official North American launch of the Atari TT 030 last >night in Toronto. The TT 030 will be available in limited quantities in >Canada in late July/early August and fully available in September. The TT >will be officially launched in the US at Comdex in November. ^^^^^^^^ Everyone in the U.S., write down that date! > The expected price of the TT 030 >(2Mbytes, 40M hard disc) is under $4000 (CDN). This puts it well under the >Amiga 3000 in terms of price (the A3000 is under $4000 US). There are three A3000 configurations available (prices in US$): Retail Education A3000/16-40 $3299 $2179 A3000/25-40 $3999 $2619 A3000/25-100 $4499 $3059 The Educational Discount on the entry-level A3000 (I'll assume this is relevant to you, since you did say that you were an educator :), which includes a 16MHz '030, 16MHz '881 math processor (you say this is optional on the TT), 2Mb of RAM and 40Mb hard-drive, is significantly lower than the "estimated" list-price of the TT 030. US$440 more buys you a 25MHz '030 and '882 (better math-throughput than the '881). Atari MAY have an educational discount policy, depending on who you talk to and what lunar phase prevails at the time. In that case, the TT 030 may be cheaper than an A3000. On the other hand, Commodore HAS an educational discount policy, now, and will be happy to sell you a machine, now (well, next month for the A3000, though they'll happily take your money now :-). (No doubt I'll draw "We don't need no steenkin' Amiga's in this group!" flames, but you did invite the comparison yourself. Just wanted to give equal time to the competition. :-) >The TT 030 comes with TOS 2.0 which will be compatible with most existing ST >software. ST software runs about 1/3 faster on the TT 030. Ehh?? Why only 30% faster? Is that, "You should expect 30% overall increase in throughput, I/O included"? Seems like, unless your code is mostly I/O- bound, that you should get more than that just for the higher clock-rate. And having an instruction pipeline and cache on the '030 should definitely be a big win. What gives? >Atari made no mention of their marketing intentions to us, but then again we >were educators and they probably didn't think we'd be interested. I brought >the issue up with an Atari official and he told me they were addressing the >problem. Draw your own conclusions. I still don't get warm fuzzies that Atari knows what they want to do with this product. Or Can Do, even if they know. >I think Atari still have a lot of promises to keep (UNIX, hardware cards, >software), but if they do then I think the TT will be a strong machine with >good prospects in the future. It certainly gives the Mac II and A3000 (not to >mention Sun) a run for their money in terms of providing a platform for UNIX. "Ho ho ho." The TT competes in the same arena as the A3000. I question whether either is a "Plan B" for anyone considering the purchase of a Mac II, for the same reason that I doubt anyone who seriously contemplates buying a new Jaguar automobile would hop over to a nearby Honda dealer and comparison- shop a loaded Prelude. (Whether a Jag is a better car than a Prelude isn't the issue, at least not in a Jag-buyer's mind. Pooh-pooh if you will the "image" that hooks the Jag buyer, but it does sell the car. :-) And I REALLY doubt anyone looking at Suns would even glance in the direction of Atari or Commodore. Different markets. Atari would be retarded to try to sell into Sun's turf, coming as they do from a background in games and proprietary-OS'd personal machines, IMO. What it all comes down to, for me, is: Do I want something that will run TOS software? If so, and that assumes that I have an ST and want to dump it rather than keep it around, then the TT would make sense for me. But if I want to run Unix, if I have no financial/emotional investment in TOS software, if I want a Unix box for anything other than personal twiddling, then I'd be a lunatic to buy a TT from Atari, based on their schizo history with the ST product line in the U.S. market. -- >>"Aaiiyeeee! Death from above!"<< | (Steve) rehrauer@apollo.hp.com "Spontaneous human combustion - what luck!"| Apollo Computer (Hewlett-Packard)
gl8f@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (06/09/90)
In article <524@cvbnetPrime.COM> jshekhel@feds19.UUCP (Jerry Shekhel ) writes: > >Not really, becase at 16 MHz, an uncached system is no longer zero-wait, >unless you use 60ns DRAMs, which I doubt these machines will use. Am I >wrong about this? I'd like to know for sure. Yeah, but the 68030 has cache lines, so some 68030 memory systems can use the burst mode to load the cache quite quickly. We'll have to see when it hits the shelf if the TT uses this mode. Does the A3000 use it at all? -- greg -- "Perhaps I'm commenting a bit cynically, but I think I'm qualified to." - Dan Bernstein
bli@aludra.usc.edu (@usc.edu) (06/09/90)
In article <1990Jun6.175342.31441@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >In article <482@van-bc.wimsey.bc.ca> jhenders@van-bc.wimsey.bc.ca (John Henders) writes: >> >> Not everyone can get the educational discount,whereas anyone who can find >>an Atari dearler [ ;-) ] can buy the TT for under 4000$ canadian. >> Just curious here,but I'd like to know...Do you Amiga guys grep the >>comp.sys.atari newsgroup to make sure noone's saying bad things about the >>Amiga. half a ;-). > > >I think many Atari and Amiga owners read both groups since the machines >are very similar, I suspect they both attract the same crowd. I know >a few people who have both machines. > >>john henders > >Chris > I for one am guilty of being an Amiga owner, and I scan Comp.sources.atari.st from time to time, and c.sys.atari.st when I finnish scanning the amiga newsgroups (can I be blamed for that?) Yes, it is because of the similarity of the machines, and I brainstorm on ideas... Lately however, i was surprised to learn from this newsgroup that my amy only has 32 colors... or that 'the WB colors are ugly'.. or that it crashes every five minute.. or that the processor speed is 1 MHz on a 2-bitplane screen (i couldn't believe my eyes when I read that a week or so ago)... If I am allowed to tell my opinion on the TT as was presented in this thread, would I be flamed if I said that I see no difference in the TT as opposed to a A2500/30 or A2000/30 + ECS? Ok, it has AppleTalk, but that's still not a big difference.
uab1018@dircon.uucp (06/09/90)
What's available in the UK and Europe (ATW etc.)
With all this talk about what's been released where I thought some people
might like a list from England.
520STFM, 1040STFM, No problem - around for years
Mega 2, Mega 4
520STe and 1040STe Since December 89 (the 520STe replaced 520ST in boxes
at one stage)
Stacey In theory (since last year) but everyone is out of
stock. Same seems to be true of Mega 1. Probably
available in Europe.
TT (2MB/40MB) There are some around, not yet to most developers.
I spoke to Atari's biggest distributer at a show last
week and he's been told (from high up) that stocks
should be around by the end of June (hahaha). To be
bundled with new Atari badged monitor (a nice one) for
2300 PDS (around same price as 'good' AT clone). I have
heard they are in the shops in Germany.
ATW Been on sale for a couple of years. Starts at around
(aka Abaq, Afront) 3000 PDS. Extra TRams are around 300 PDS. Not heavily
pushed, but selling into it's niche quite nicely.
SLM804 Laser On sale for several years. Starting to look over priced.
Hard drives Mega file 30 and 60 (replaced SH205 about two years
ago) and Mega file 44 (removable), for two years.
CD-ROM Released two years ago, but not pushed at all because
there are very few applications. Atari will only sell
you one if you ask, but they are in stock. On general
sale in other parts of Europe (NB. on sale != selling)
A3 monitor I forget the model number, but this is around as an
add-on for Mega STs, if you've got the money!
I hope someone find the above interesting.
--
--- Frank J Leonhardt -- uab1018@dircon.UUCP -- leo@tardis.cs.ed.ac.uk ---
------------------ London, England Tel: ++44 81 429 3047 ------------------stephen@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Steve Whitney) (06/09/90)
In article <10115@chaph.usc.edu> bli@aludra.usc.edu (@usc.edu) writes: [Lots of stuff deleted] > >If I am allowed to tell my opinion on the TT as was presented in >this thread, would I be flamed if I said that I see no difference in >the TT as opposed to a A2500/30 or A2000/30 + ECS? Ok, it has >AppleTalk, but that's still not a big difference. Well, how about eight bit planes and support for a 19" monitor (without hacks) and burst mode (on the fast RAM) as well as built in SCSI and an industry standard bus (VME)? Steve -- Steve Whitney "It's never _really_ the last minute" (())_-_(()) UCLA Comp. Sci. Grad. Student | (* *) | Internet: stephen@cs.ucla.edu UCLA Bruin--> { \_@_/ } GEnie: S.WHITNEY `-----'
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (06/10/90)
In article <1990Jun9.025410.5174@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gl8f@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes: >In article <524@cvbnetPrime.COM> jshekhel@feds19.UUCP (Jerry Shekhel ) writes: >> >>Not really, becase at 16 MHz, an uncached system is no longer zero-wait, >>unless you use 60ns DRAMs, which I doubt these machines will use. Am I >>wrong about this? I'd like to know for sure. > >Yeah, but the 68030 has cache lines, so some 68030 memory systems can >use the burst mode to load the cache quite quickly. We'll have to see >when it hits the shelf if the TT uses this mode. Does the A3000 use it >at all? Yes, I think it was Dave Haynie of Commodore who stated on c.s.a that the A3000 has full support of the 68030 burst mode. Will the TT? > >-- greg > >-- >"Perhaps I'm commenting a bit cynically, but I think I'm qualified to." > - Dan Bernstein Yep, you're qualified. Cheers, Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |Donde hay una cerveza cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |hay un plan. (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null |El Guerrero Aereo es el rey! ------------------------------+---------------------------
jheddy@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Jared Brennan) (06/11/90)
The 33% speed increase in Atari ST programs run on the TT has aroused
quite a bit of interest on the net recently, because this is rather minimal
compared to the speed increase expected given 2X clock rate, 2X data bus size,
caching, etc. However, I believe that the line A traps are real instructions
on the 68030, while they are invalid on the 68000, which allows them to be
used for ST graphics primitives. So, contrarily enough, the line A traps
are "illegal" instructions on the 68030 TT, while they work fine on the
68000 ST. The result being that you have to go through some gymnastics to
run ST programs on the TT. Hence, the limited speed increase.
I think this was discussed on the net some time ago. I wish somebody
from Atari would toss in their own $0.02, because I'm really uncertain about
this information.
--
. . . Yet another shallow and badly thought-out opinion from:
Jared Brennan <jheddy@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> BITNET: JHEDDY@JHUNIX,JHUVMScsbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Claus Brod ) (06/11/90)
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >>Yeah, but the 68030 has cache lines, so some 68030 memory systems can >>use the burst mode to load the cache quite quickly. We'll have to see >>when it hits the shelf if the TT uses this mode. Does the A3000 use it >>at all? >Yes, I think it was Dave Haynie of Commodore who stated on c.s.a that >the A3000 has full support of the 68030 burst mode. Will the TT? Last year, some ATARI official told us: No burst mode on the TT. This year, they say: Burst mode in fast RAM. At least, _some_ good news about the TT. I hate the A500 and A2000, but I think I will prefer the A3000 rather than the TT as I've seen it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Claus Brod, Am Felsenkeller 2, Things. Take. Time. D-8772 Marktheidenfeld, West Germany (Piet Hein) csbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de ----------------------------------------------------------------------
stephen@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Steve Whitney) (06/12/90)
In article <5503@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU> jheddy@jhunix.UUCP (Jared Brennan) writes: > > The 33% speed increase in Atari ST programs run on the TT has aroused >quite a bit of interest on the net recently, because this is rather minimal >compared to the speed increase expected given 2X clock rate, 2X data bus size, >caching, etc. However, I believe that the line A traps are real instructions >on the 68030, while they are invalid on the 68000, which allows them to be >used for ST graphics primitives. So, contrarily enough, the line A traps >are "illegal" instructions on the 68030 TT, while they work fine on the >68000 ST. The result being that you have to go through some gymnastics to >run ST programs on the TT. Hence, the limited speed increase. I just flipped through the 68030 manual to check this. The verdict is: The Line-F emulator is now used as teh floating point coprocessor interface in the 68030 (and to call the inetrnmal FPU on the 68040), but the line-A emulator is still there. Until TOS 1.6, TOS used the line-F emulator internally for dispatching system calls memory efficiently. That particular interface was never made public because it was known that the line-F emulator was going to be the coprocessor interface in the 68020 and above. From what I hear from Atari on GEnie, the speedup of the TT is more like 5x on older programs, but I'm sure floppy I/O and such don't count there. You should see some semi-official numbers soon. >-- >. . . Yet another shallow and badly thought-out opinion from: >Jared Brennan <jheddy@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> BITNET: JHEDDY@JHUNIX,JHUVMS -- Steve Whitney "It's never _really_ the last minute" (())_-_(()) UCLA Comp. Sci. Grad. Student | (* *) | Internet: stephen@cs.ucla.edu UCLA Bruin--> { \_@_/ } GEnie: S.WHITNEY `-----'
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (06/12/90)
Just a few clarifications... In article <RIDDLER.90Jun5234617@aiken.iesd.auc.dk> riddler@iesd.auc.dk (Claus Priisholm) writes: >In article <1990Jun5.182949.2439@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: > 7Mhz graphic accelerator chips :-( In 68000-equivalent terms, the Amiga chips have always run at 14.3MHz. > 2 wait states fast-ram :-( The A3000's memory system is as fast as on any similar 68030 machine, Mac IIci and NeXT included. The 68030 has two types of minimum cycles, the 68020 compatible cycle called "asynchronous" (a minimum of 3 clocks), and the 68030-specific cycle called "synchronous" (a minimum of 2 clocks), which also goes along with the 68030's cache line push, what most folks call "burst-mode". Burst allows up to 3 longwords to be transferred as quickly as 1 clock each. The A3000 also has a special page-detect mode in it's memory controller, which can speed things up. The A3000 clocks like this: A3000/16 A3000/25 Standard Cycle 4 5 Page Cycle 3 3 Burst Cycle 2 2 Page and burst can work together, so a page with burst at 25MHz would run a 3-2-2-2, or 9 clock cycle. The is the fastest you can do with a 25MHz 68030 without going to 60ns DRAM. Don't expect 60ns DRAM in any $3000 computer for quite some time. > Guru meditations :-( I suppose you'd rather have bombs? Or a system that just hangs when an error happens. >- Both Atari and C= has a full PC-line (down the drain). I didn't realize that Atari had 386 Tower machines. >- Atari has the 520, 1040, MEGA's & STE, C= has A500, A1000, A2000 & A2500, Except for a few minor differences, the 520, 1040, MEGAs, and STE are the same thing. Execept for a few minor differences, the A500, A1000, and A2000 are the same thing (the A2000 does provide a full fledge expansion bus, not available yet in any Atari). The A2500/20 is a 14.3MHz 68020/68881 machine, the A2500/30 is a 25MHz 68030/68882 machine. >UNIX? I believe the TT was running UNIX at CeBit in Hannover, and the fairly >high resolution in monochrome, is a better platform for X-windows, than >4096 colours hold-and-modify mode at a medium resolution. So when it comes >to UNIX, I would prefer the TT (but still more I would like it to use >a 25 MHz 68040 and the Blossom graphics chip). Commodore's been showing real (eg, AT&T, not Idris or some other clone) UNIX for quite some time. They showed X-Windows under UNIX running on the A2500/30 with A2410 display card (1024x768, 256 out of 16 million colors) nearly a year ago. If Atari really is doing a real UNIX, don't expect it soon. And you don't want it rushed out -- UNIX people might find A3000s or Atari TTs a nice shot at being a good UNIX box, but without a standard and reliable UNIX the first time around, they'll never have a chance to correct problems. A flakey UNIX at the right price might attract a hacker or two, but it'll never recoup the costs of development or support. >* Claus Priisholm * ******* *********** -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "I have been given the freedom to do as I see fit" -REM
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (06/12/90)
In article <5503@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU> jheddy@jhunix.UUCP (Jared Brennan) writes: > The 33% speed increase in Atari ST programs run on the TT has aroused >quite a bit of interest on the net recently, because this is rather minimal >compared to the speed increase expected given 2X clock rate, 2X data bus size, >caching, etc. However, I believe that the line A traps are real instructions >on the 68030, while they are invalid on the 68000, which allows them to be >used for ST graphics primitives. No, line A still forces an exception on the 68030. Mac uses them too, though I don't really know why; an exception is considerably more expensive than a subroutine call, even indirect subroutine calls such as used in Amiga libraries. They even produce the same exception stack frame, called type 0 in 68030 parlance (the 68000 only has one kind of exception stack frame). Now some F line instructions are used by the 68030; specifically, those for the MMU and FPU op-codes. Anyone who's used those for OS calls made a big mistake. >. . . Yet another shallow and badly thought-out opinion from: >Jared Brennan <jheddy@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> BITNET: JHEDDY@JHUNIX,JHUVMS -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "I have been given the freedom to do as I see fit" -REM
valentin@cbmvax.commodore.com (Valentin Pepelea) (06/12/90)
In article <12551@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax (Dave Haynie) writes: >In article <5503@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU> jheddy@jhunix.UUCP (Jared Brennan) writes: > >> However, I believe that the line A traps are real instructions >> on the 68030, while they are invalid on the 68000, which allows them to be >> used for ST graphics primitives. > > No, line A still forces an exception on the 68030. Mac uses them too, though > I don't really know why; an exception is considerably more expensive than a > subroutine call, even indirect subroutine calls such as used in Amiga > libraries. The advantage of A-line instructions is that they drop you into supervisor mode instantly. Thus functions that need access to supervisor-only registers do not need to call the Supervisor() function like our operating system does. Should the writers of these operating systems then decide to implement memory protection, the function call methodology is already properly implemented. The Amiga on the other hand would have to either insert an A-line instruction as the first instruction of each function call, or call the Supervisor() function. All this is needed for parameter checking, which has to be done within a protected supervisor-only piece of code. So while A-line is apparently a clumsy way of initiating OS functions calls, when memory protection is implemented A-line instructions prove to be a preferable. A future Mac operating system is rumored to have memory protection, and yes, they also use A-line instruction for OS calls. > Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" Valentin -- The Goddess of democracy? "The tyrants Name: Valentin Pepelea may distroy a statue, but they cannot Phone: (215) 431-9327 kill a god." UseNet: cbmvax!valentin@uunet.uu.net - Ancient Chinese Proverb Claimer: I not Commodore spokesman be