dmb@wam.umd.edu (David M. Baggett) (06/28/90)
In article <187@hexagon.pkmab.se> daniel@hexagon.pkmab.se (Daniel Deimert) writes: >In article <1990Jun26.133606.4586@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >] ... ] >>spectacular. Those guys should program professionally. The demo is >>better than many commercial products I have seen. > >But I can tell you -- it's a long way between writing a good "demo" and >writing a good game. You have probably never heard of their games, >though they are technically spoken excellent. It's more to a good game >than that. It's also important to keep in mind that a demo can essentially devote all of the machine's time and memory to its one task, while a game requires memory and time for "mundane" tasks like keeping track of player stats, collision checking, etc. For example, a clever demo might employ 12 screens to accomplish extremely smooth scrolling, but the same technique would likely be unworkable in a game since it would require devoting 384K just to screen RAM. A similar case is Spectrum 512. Sure, a demo can have static screen images with more colors than normal, but writing a game using the Spectrum "screen mode" would be ludicrously difficult. (Now that I've said that, who wants to go out and try?) > (Don't you like NetHack? I do, though it has quite poor >graphics... ;-) Yes, NetHack is truly a great game. I've probably spent more hours playing NetHack than any other ST game. (The latest port is great!) Dave Baggett dmb%wam.umd.edu@uunet.uu.net
daniel@hexagon.pkmab.se (Daniel Deimert) (06/28/90)
In article <1990Jun27.201016.27871@wam.umd.edu> dmb%wam.umd.edu@uunet.uu.net (David M. Baggett) writes: > >For example, a clever demo might employ 12 screens to accomplish >extremely smooth scrolling, but the same technique would likely be >unworkable in a game since it would require devoting 384K just to >screen RAM. Some techniques used in demos are very usuable when programming games, though. For example -- imagine all ST games were using overscan and 4-channel sampled sound. This is not impossible, though the music does consume some cpu-time (around 12%, depending on it's maximum sample rate). And games which have good graphics (ie large, eye-catching sprites) are easier to sell in a store. Kids tends to pick a colorful game rather than the dull and gloomy equivalent. -- Daniel Deimert "Only use unneccessary force if neccessary!" daniel@hexagon.pkmab.se ...!sunic!kullmar!pkmab!hexagon!daniel
leo@ehviea.ine.philips.nl (Leo de Wit) (06/29/90)
In article <190@hexagon.pkmab.se> daniel@hexagon.pkmab.se (Daniel Deimert) writes: [] |Some techniques used in demos are very usuable when programming games, |though. For example -- imagine all ST games were using overscan and |4-channel sampled sound. This is not impossible, though the music does |consume some cpu-time (around 12%, depending on it's maximum sample |rate). Uh, how do you do 4-channel sound on a 3-channel sound chip? Yes, I understand you can quickly change pitches on a channel to simulate a second channel, but I think this will sound awful. So how do you do it? Leo.
larserio@IFI.UIO.NO (LarsErikOsterud) (06/30/90)
No no no... I have several demos and to sound-trackers that plays GREAT sampled music in 4 channels... The new version of Quartet even has 6 !! Lars-Erik / ABK-BBS +47 2132659 / ____ ______ ________________________ Osterud / larserio@ifi.uio.no / /___ / The norwegian ST __________/ ______________________/ ____/ / Klubben, user association
dmb@wam.umd.edu (David M. Baggett) (06/30/90)
In article <CMM.0.88.646685730.larserio@kvart.uio.no> larserio@IFI.UIO.NO (LarsErikOsterud) writes: >No no no... I have several demos and to sound-trackers that plays GREAT >sampled music in 4 channels... The new version of Quartet even has 6 !! > Yet there are surely limitations here too. I assume this "4-channel sound" is accomplished with digital mixing; i.e., take the four samples to be played and average them to get a new sample value. One limitation is that the sounds all have to be sampled at the same rate, otherwise the mixing becomes much more difficult. (Having not seen the demos, I admit they may be doing something else to get the 4/6 channels.) In any case, playing digital sounds at higher sample rates than 4KHz will noticeably slow down game play. This limits the sound quality and makes playing sampled music during a game much less workable than you might expect. I don't know of any action games that play sampled music while you play (sampled sounds yes, but not music). Anyone seen an example? Dave Baggett dmb%wam.umd.edu@uunet.uu.net
dhollis@shiloh.UUCP (Dan Hollis @ 7819367) (06/30/90)
In article <815@ehviea.ine.philips.nl>, leo@ehviea.ine.philips.nl (Leo de Wit) writes: > Uh, how do you do 4-channel sound on a 3-channel sound chip? Yes, I > understand you can quickly change pitches on a channel to simulate a > second channel, but I think this will sound awful. So how do you do it? Actually, it can be done. I have several demos, which play amiga music files (soundtracker files for you amigaphyes) that play the music with 4 voices at 28khz. The way they do it, is mix four 'virtual voices' into ONE physical voice. This actually works VERY well, there is only a slight difference in sound quality. I am not sure what demos Mr. Larserio has, but the one I am talking about is called the 'ST-Connexion Sound Demo', it comes from a group in France.
neil@cs.hw.ac.uk (Neil Forsyth) (07/16/90)
In article <190@hexagon.pkmab.se> daniel@hexagon.pkmab.se (Daniel Deimert) writes: >In article <1990Jun27.201016.27871@wam.umd.edu> dmb%wam.umd.edu@uunet.uu.net (David M. Baggett) writes: >> >>For example, a clever demo might employ 12 screens to accomplish >>extremely smooth scrolling, but the same technique would likely be >>unworkable in a game since it would require devoting 384K just to >>screen RAM. > >Some techniques used in demos are very usuable when programming games, >though. For example -- imagine all ST games were using overscan and >4-channel sampled sound. This is not impossible, though the music does >consume some cpu-time (around 12%, depending on it's maximum sample >rate). This overscan technique is crud. It depends heavily on undocumented side effects in the GLUE chip and thus will not work on all ST's and definately not on an STE. We have had all sorts of problems with programs abusing undocumented memory locations so please don't start hardware weirdness too. >And games which have good graphics (ie large, eye-catching sprites) are >easier to sell in a store. Kids tends to pick a colorful game rather >than the dull and gloomy equivalent. Any dopey kid who buys the crap because it's in a glossy box and has pretty pictures deserves to get ripped off. Any game player will tell you it's playability that matters. Nethack being a fine example. At the moment the games scene is very sick. It's poor quality and big profits all the way and I wish it would change. >Daniel Deimert "Only use unneccessary force if neccessary!" >daniel@hexagon.pkmab.se ...!sunic!kullmar!pkmab!hexagon!daniel +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ! DISCLAIMER:Unless otherwise stated, the above comments are entirely my own ! ! ! ! "I think all right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of ! ! being told that ordinary decent people are fed up in this country with ! ! being sick and tired. I'm certainly not and I'm sick and tired of being ! ! told that I am!" - Monty Python ! ! ! ! Neil Forsyth JANET: neil@uk.ac.hw.cs ! ! Dept. of Computer Science ARPA: neil@cs.hw.ac.uk ! ! Heriot-Watt University UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!neil ! ! Edinburgh, Scotland, UK ! +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
daniel@hexagon.pkmab.se (Daniel Deimert) (07/18/90)
In article <4954@brahma.cs.hw.ac.uk> neil@cs.hw.ac.uk (Neil Forsyth) writes: >In article <190@hexagon.pkmab.se> daniel@hexagon.pkmab.se (Daniel Deimert) writes: >>Some techniques used in demos are very usuable when programming games, >>though. For example -- imagine all ST games were using overscan and >>4-channel sampled sound. This is not impossible, though the music does >>consume some cpu-time (around 12%, depending on it's maximum sample >>rate). > >This overscan technique is crud. It depends heavily on undocumented side >effects in the GLUE chip and thus will not work on all ST's and definately >not on an STE. We have had all sorts of problems with programs abusing >undocumented memory locations so please don't start hardware weirdness too. With some minor changes of the timing it can be made working on the STE as well. Actually, there ARE games which uses these 'features' of the GLUE and the MMU. [ I know of "Chambers of Shaolin" ] Perhaps the ST community will have to start using everything they can to survive. In Sweden, and as I hear in Norway too, ST sales are low, and the game sales even lower. Myself, I sell about five or six Amigas for each ST, and perhaps 20 Amiga games per ST game. I don't like it. I don't like Nintendo games consoles either, but they sell good. The reality is catching up on us. If I were to make a game -- I wouldn't even think of ST in the first place. >>And games which have good graphics (ie large, eye-catching sprites) are >>easier to sell in a store. Kids tends to pick a colorful game rather >>than the dull and gloomy equivalent. > >Any dopey kid who buys the crap because it's in a glossy box and has pretty >pictures deserves to get ripped off. Any game player will tell you it's >playability that matters. Nethack being a fine example. You forget that the people who intends to make a living on games don't care about playability. If playability makes the game sell better, then it's good. (Sierra On-Line is a good example; great games! If you haven't played Hero's Quest or Conquests of Camelot yet, do it!) How many parents (yes, they pay, mostly) would pay 300 SEK (about $50) on NetHack? None. How many parents does pay 300 SEK for a glossy box with a worthless game in it? Thousands. Many games are even MORE expensive, like Midwinter and the Sierra games. Dragons Lair and sequels cost about $90, but many parents like the look of it. And where's the playability? >At the moment the games scene is very sick. It's poor quality and big profits >all the way and I wish it would change. Miracles still happend, I've heard. We'll see... ;-) -- Daniel Deimert "Only use unneccessary force if neccassary!" daniel@hexagon.pkmab.se ...!sunic!kullmar!pkmab!hexagon!daniel