megabyte@chinet.chi.il.us (Dr. Megabyte) (07/20/90)
I'm finally about ready to give up on my Tandy Color Computer 3. While it's a fine machine, for an 8 bit machine, it seems that both Tandy and 3rd party support for it are dwindling. So, it's time for a new computer. Several of my friends have recomended the Atari ST line as an "Upgrade" path from the CoCo 3. The reasons: High Quality Graphics Mouse driven, graphic interface Ease of Use Cost effective Relative ease of finding software Good sound Good 'C' compilers available Lot's of PD code Can read those messy-DOS disks Runs OS-9 (My prefered OS) It almost sounds like the CoCo 4 Tandy never came out with. So here are my questions about the Atari ST line: 1. Cost - What do the 1040 and 520 ST systems cost? What is the used market like? Are there 3rd party disk drives, hard disks and etc for it? 2. Expandability - Does the ST have "standard" printer, RS-232 ports and other places to connect devices? 3. Monitor - Is the Atari monitors the only games in town? Should I go color or mono? 4. Software - I see LOTS of games for the ST in my local store, but few word wackers and other "user" programs. Do they exist, but just not retail? 5. OS-9 for the ST - What is the cost? Is there a windowing version of OS-9 for the ST? or it is strictly a "generic" implimentation? 6. Anything you might want to tell me as a potential ST owner, particulary if you used to be a Color Computer Owner. 7. What is the best ST magazine to get and read to become familair with the ST universe? Since all this is so basic, it can be emailed to me if you don't want to take up bandwidth in comp.sys.atari.st. With luck, I might get a new computer soon, but I want to be sure that what I might buy really is a good system that won't be deserted in a few years such as my CoCo has been. -- Mark E. Sunderlin: IRS Technocrat in Stephens City, VA aka Dr. Megabyte: megabyte@chinet.chi.il.us (703) TOY-DUDE "It is a pity that even the least drop of this noble gift of God should be spilled." - J.S. Bach on wine.
colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) (07/23/90)
In article <1990Jul20.162017.21823@chinet.chi.il.us>, megabyte@chinet.chi.il.us (Dr. Megabyte) writes: > Several of my friends have recomended the Atari ST line as an "Upgrade" > path from the CoCo 3. The reasons: > > High Quality Graphics Poorer than VGA-PCs & amiga > Mouse driven, graphic interface Low quality one > Ease of Use For a computer hobbyist, yes > Cost effective > Relative ease of finding software not anymore > Good sound Yuck! worse sound around. > Good 'C' compilers available Try to find an ANSI C or C++ compiler... > Lot's of PD code yes, if you read the news. > Can read those messy-DOS disks > Runs OS-9 (My prefered OS) price/availability? + uncompatible disk format. > It almost sounds like the CoCo 4 Tandy never came out with. So here are my > questions about the Atari ST line: General problem: The atari ST is an endangered specie: It didn't sell enough to get the critical mass to interest software companies. With no successor (apart a vapourware TT which is already obsolete before being out), it will be in the same situation as the CoCo3 in one year. It is still a valid choice for some precise uses, for instance: - as a multi-windowing terminal emulator, due to its superb mono screen, cheap price, and the "term" (uw-derived) terminal emulator. Our organisation, INRIA, did not buy any ascii terminal since 2 years, only STs. Drawback: horrible keyboard. - as a game machine, for an european user (my use). In france it is cheap, so games are cheap. Drawback: Now, more and more of the better "adult" (strategic, simulations) games are developed on PCs, STs having all the flashpan kid arcade games. Exceptions: FTL and Bullfrog. - Some specialized programs, such as calamus, are perhaps worth byuing an ST for. But would you invest one year of your work on an exotic program, incompatible with the rest of the world? Personaly I used my ST to do all the drawings of my thesis with easy-draw, but it was a pain to translate them to postscript for latex inclusion... - for the unix user, you have emacs, Latex, some shells, tar, etc... before leaving work, I just do a "tar cf /dev/floppy ." on my unix box, take the disk home, and continue to edit my sork under microemacs on my ST at home In my opinion, get a taiwanese 386 PC VGA compatible. That's the route I will follow as soon as they will cost less than the price I payed my first ST, about $1500 (now you have a 286 for this price). I had STs for the past three years, enjoyed them, but their time is counted... The amiga may survive since it has a credible successor with the A3000, but it is much more expensive than PC-compatibles for non professional graphic uses. Colas Nahaboo, Bull Research France -- Koala Project -- GWM X11 Window Manager colas@avahi.inria.fr Phone: (33) 93.65.77.70, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 66 INRIA - Sophia Antipolis, 2004, rte des Lucioles, 06565 Valbonne Cedex, FRANCE
gl8f@astsun9.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (07/24/90)
In article <8488@mirsa.inria.fr> colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) writes: >In article <1990Jul20.162017.21823@chinet.chi.il.us>, >megabyte@chinet.chi.il.us (Dr. Megabyte) writes: [ article deleted ] Please, can we not have these "I dumped my ST and bought an X because..." articles? They don't contribute anything useful to the group, and cause needless flamewars. Different people have different needs in a computer, and you needn't justify your decision in front of the entire planet. By the way, Colas, if you want ANSI C you could try Turbo C or gcc. -- "In fact you should not be involved in IRC." -- Phil Howard
steve@thelake.mn.org (Steve Yelvington) (07/24/90)
[In article <8488@mirsa.inria.fr>,
colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) writes ... ]
> In article <1990Jul20.162017.21823@chinet.chi.il.us>,
> megabyte@chinet.chi.il.us (Dr. Megabyte) writes:
>> Several of my friends have recomended the Atari ST line as an "Upgrade"
>> path from the CoCo 3. The reasons:
<omitted>
> General problem: The atari ST is an endangered specie: It didn't sell enough
> to get the critical mass to interest software companies. With no successor
> (apart a vapourware TT which is already obsolete before being out), it will
> be in the same situation as the CoCo3 in one year.
That is a myth that needs deflating. I don't buy that argument
against *any* currently available 16-bit computer (except perhaps the
Apple IIGS, which has been abandoned by its mother). The standard
business applications -- word processing, spreadsheets, database
management, etc. -- are well covered. (How many word processors do
you need, anyway?)
What amazes me is the oddball applications that keep turning up.
Restaurant ordering systems, point-of-sale terminals (cash
registers), industrial embroidery machine controllers, telephone
directory assistance consoles ... I keep hearing about STs in the
oddest places.
Why? Because any brickhead like myself can program them, and good
programmers can really make them sit up and put on a show. The ST is
not a hostile environment.
There is a distribution problem. It is unreasonably hard to find the
commercial software that is available. But that's doesn't mean it
doesn't exist.
> - Some specialized programs, such as calamus, are perhaps worth byuing an ST
> for. But would you invest one year of your work on an exotic program,
> incompatible with the rest of the world? Personaly I used my ST to do all
> the drawings of my thesis with easy-draw, but it was a pain to translate
> them to postscript for latex inclusion...
I just converted a GEM metafile that had been created by Easy-Draw to
PostScript this afternoon using Pagestream.
> In my opinion, get a taiwanese 386 PC VGA compatible. That's the route I will
> follow as soon as they will cost less than the price I payed my first ST,
> about $1500 (now you have a 286 for this price).
The original poster likes OS-9 and Motorola assembly language. PC
clones have their places, but I sure wouldn't inflict them on someone
with those interests. Crazy memory models, incompatible video modes,
overpriced software, severe RAM limitations ... who needs it? If your
boss makes you buy one, that's one thing, but for a hobby, why do it
to yourself?
The only excuse for a '386 box that I can think of is Unix, and Unix
for a '386 costs as much as my ST.
--
Steve Yelvington at the lake in Minnesota
steve@thelake.mn.orgcolas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) (07/24/90)
In article <1990Jul23.214712.17020@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, gl8f@astsun9.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes: > Please, can we not have these "I dumped my ST and bought an X Sorry if I sounded this way. I exposed also the reasons that made our organization still buy STs, and the reasons why I use mine. My point was: I think the ST could have been a general purpose computer, "the apple II of the late 80s", but now it is well adapted for some uses, but not for all. I offer to "repair" my posting by summarizing and posting a list of relevant uses for a ST. Mail me your experiences, I will post them. colas. <colas@avahi.inria.fr>
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (07/24/90)
In article <1990Jul23.214712.17020@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gl8f@astsun9.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes: >In article <8488@mirsa.inria.fr> colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) writes: >>In article <1990Jul20.162017.21823@chinet.chi.il.us>, >>megabyte@chinet.chi.il.us (Dr. Megabyte) writes: > >[ article deleted ] > >Please, can we not have these "I dumped my ST and bought an X >because..." articles? They don't contribute anything useful to the >group, and cause needless flamewars. Different people have different >needs in a computer, and you needn't justify your decision in front of >the entire planet. I'm sick and tired of you trying to crown yourself net.moderator for this group. Who are you to judge what is useful and what is not? If Colas' article was useless, then so is your chastizing him for posting it (you could've done that by email, eh?) I didn't see anything inciteful about the post. It was full of rather accurate information, even if it wasn't to the liking of ST cheerleaders like yourself. > >By the way, Colas, if you want ANSI C you could try Turbo C or gcc. I was under the impression that Turbo C was only available in Europe and that GCC is PD (no professional support)?? Cheers, Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |Donde hay una cerveza cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |hay un plan. (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null |El Guerrero Aereo es el rey! ------------------------------+---------------------------
gl8f@astsun9.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (07/24/90)
In article <1990Jul24.134702.11337@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >I'm sick and tired of you trying to crown yourself net.moderator for >this group. I haven't appointed myself anything. I'm just trying to use a little common sense. Too bad you don't think before you post. Isn't it about time for you to start telling us how badly Atari is doing in the stock market? >>By the way, Colas, if you want ANSI C you could try Turbo C or gcc. > >I was under the impression that Turbo C was only available in Europe >and that GCC is PD (no professional support)?? Colas is from France. Last time I checked, France was in Europe. In addition, GCC is "free" but you may purchase support from it from any of a number of individuals and corporations. I use it without support every day and haven't had any trouble whatsoever. >Send flames to /dev/null |El Guerrero Aereo es el rey! Too bad you don't take your own advice, Chris. The posting of mine that you flamed had information in it; did your flame have any? -- "In fact you should not be involved in IRC." -- Phil Howard
muts@fysaj.fys.ruu.nl (Peter Mutsaers /100000) (07/24/90)
>> General problem: The atari ST is an endangered specie: It didn't sell enough >> to get the critical mass to interest software companies. With no successor >> (apart a vapourware TT which is already obsolete before being out), it will >> be in the same situation as the CoCo3 in one year. THe atari ST is definately NOT an endangered specie in Europe, it did sell very well here and much software is available. Maybe this is not very well distributed in the US, but good software is developped for it, which could always be ordered in Europe. Especially in Germany and Holland. (for example Turbo C, that was developped by Heimsoeth in Germany). -- Peter Mutsaers email: muts@fysaj.fys.ruu.nl Rijksuniversiteit Utrecht nmutsaer@ruunsa.fys.ruu.nl Princetonplein 5 tel: (+31)-(0)30-534504 3584 CG Utrecht, Netherlands
muts@fysaj.fys.ruu.nl (Peter Mutsaers /100000) (07/24/90)
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >I was under the impression that Turbo C was only available in Europe >and that GCC is PD (no professional support)?? Turbo C is that good and fast that it is worthwile to order it in Europe even if you're in the US. Have you ever worked with gcc? It may be PD, but it is very good and has a nice, quit UNIX like library that makes it easy to compile a lot of UNIX sources without many modifications. gcc is used on many workstations (SUN,CONVEX minisuper,HP etc.) instead of the original compilers because it is of such high quality. Don't underestimate the value of good PD software being available for a computer. -- Peter Mutsaers email: muts@fysaj.fys.ruu.nl Rijksuniversiteit Utrecht nmutsaer@ruunsa.fys.ruu.nl Princetonplein 5 tel: (+31)-(0)30-534504 3584 CG Utrecht, Netherlands
pietrzak@skybridge.SCL.CWRU.Edu (John Pietrzak) (07/25/90)
In article <1990Jul24.134702.11337@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: > >I'm sick and tired of you trying to crown yourself net.moderator for >this group. Who are you to judge what is useful and what is not? >If Colas' article was useless, then so is your chastizing him for >posting it (you could've done that by email, eh?) > >I didn't see anything inciteful about the post. It was full of rather >accurate information, even if it wasn't to the liking of ST >cheerleaders like yourself. > I'm sick and tired of reading the incessant heckling of the ST in your posts, Chris. After your continual slamming of the atari, you decide to post a message declaiming those who provide the inverse service to this newsgroup. You've essentially crowned yourself head.flamer for c.s.a.s.. (And why should anyone use email, with your sterling examples to guide them?) > >I was under the impression that Turbo C was only available in Europe >and that GCC is PD (no professional support)?? > I wouldn't know about Turbo C, but GCC for the Atari ST is officially sanctioned by the Free Software Foundation, which is as much as it gets for any machine on which it runs. The faculty at CWRU seem to consider this enough, as GCC is the compiler used on the majority of the workstations I've seen (or used) at the school. > >Cheers, > >Chris J P
gilliam@lowlif.dec.com (07/25/90)
In article <1990Jul24.134702.11337@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu>, cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes... >In article <1990Jul23.214712.17020@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gl8f@astsun9.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes: >>In article <8488@mirsa.inria.fr> colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) writes: >>>In article <1990Jul20.162017.21823@chinet.chi.il.us>, >>>megabyte@chinet.chi.il.us (Dr. Megabyte) writes: >> >>By the way, Colas, if you want ANSI C you could try Turbo C or gcc. > Prospero C is ANSI compatible. The documentation is in English.
Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com (07/25/90)
Wow... Atari Cheerleaders to the rescue...! Convince this poor slob to spend his money on the Atari Myth... Gloss over the fact that there are fewer than 50 active Atari dealers in the entire U.S.of A... so he can forget local support unless he's lucky enough to live near one of the surviving Atari dealers.. Smokescreen the fact that most of the large software companies have abandoned the Atari market as not being worth their effort any longer, due to the games Atari Corp has played with them... Vaporize him with mythical tales of the wonderful products Atari is going to bring out *someday* ... deflect him from buying truly useful computer systems *TODAY* with lots of vaportales of Atari products to come... Neglect to tell him that he better learn German as a second language if he buys into the Atari market, since there's little support for Atari here in the US... Forget to mention that Atari Corp has NO credibility left in the "big picture of the computer marketplace, whether "high powered" computing or "game machine" entertainment value... Yeah... "ATARI RAH RAH"... that's the spirit...! BobR
grahamt@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Graham Thomas) (07/25/90)
From article <1990Jul24.151655.29463@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, by gl8f@astsun9.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl): > In article <1990Jul24.134702.11337@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: > >>I'm sick and tired of you trying to crown yourself net.moderator for >>this group. > > I haven't appointed myself anything. I'm just trying to use a little > common sense. Too bad you don't think before you post. Isn't it about > time for you to start telling us how badly Atari is doing in the stock > market? > (Various diatribes and followup messages ignored.) Hey Greg, Hey Chris, Whatever you do, don't let anything anyone here says about you stop you from posting to this newsgroup. I for one find your battles vastly entertaining. There again, I don't pay for the net traffic to our site. Seriously, folks, let's not get too worked up about this. There's room for both positive and negative sentiments about the ST, Atari, the Tramiels (*especially* the Tramiels) etc. I know I swing from one side to the other according to how the machines I use are behaving today and how frustrating my last encounter with Atari UK was. What worries me more is that I got only one offsite reply to a previous query about problems with our Mega/HD/Laser systems. (Thanks, Robin of Galadriel.) Either there are fewer knowledgeable people around than I thought, or (more likely) our problems are just too weird. Maybe it's about time to take Ken Badertscher's advice of last year, spread out the chicken blood and dance round the machine. Come to think of it, the problem he suggested that as an answer to (a variant of the 'phantom typist') hasn't gone away yet either. I'd better stop before I get too firmly into Chris Mauritz mode. :-) Graham -- Graham Thomas, SPRU, Mantell Building, U of Sussex, Brighton, BN1 9RF, UK JANET: grahamt@uk.ac.sussex.syma BITNET: grahamt%syma.sussex.ac.uk@UKACRL INTERNET: grahamt%syma.sussex.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk UUCP: grahamt%syma.sussex@ukc.uucp PHONE: +44 273 686758 FAX: [..] 685865
colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) (07/25/90)
I guess that everybody not interested by this has already killed this subject, so let's go :) In article <A90248440@thelake.mn.org>, steve@thelake.mn.org (Steve Yelvington) writes: > That is a myth that needs deflating. I don't buy that argument > against *any* currently available 16-bit computer (except perhaps the > Apple IIGS, which has been abandoned by its mother). I made the same bet against the apple IIGS. I had an apple II and seen the upgrade to the IIGS as a dead end. Want to bet with me on the ST fate? > The standard > business applications -- word processing, spreadsheets, database > management, etc. -- are well covered. (How many word processors do > you need, anyway?) Only a good one. Now for the question: cite one good word processing, spreadsheets, database for the ST. LDW power is only lotus-1 compatible, superbase pro is FULL of bugs and even clumsier to use than appleworks on my apple II, perhaps only wordperfect and calamus are true professional programs -- but where is word? > What amazes me is the oddball applications that keep turning up. > Restaurant ordering systems, point-of-sale terminals (cash > registers), industrial embroidery machine controllers, telephone > directory assistance consoles ... I keep hearing about STs in the > oddest places. Just because any hacker can whip up in one week some program that will bomb out just because the disk is write-protected (I've seem this many times) is not really meaningful. > Why? Because any brickhead like myself can program them, and good > programmers can really make them sit up and put on a show. The ST is > not a hostile environment. Agreed, the ST is a good hobbyist computer, that's why I bought it, but it IS hostile to the end user. A tolerable situation for a new computer, it can be fatal to it if it goes on any longuer than 3 years. > I just converted a GEM metafile that had been created by Easy-Draw to > PostScript this afternoon using Pagestream. My thesis was in French. You do you type accents in Easy-Draw? by hacking... And at the time, the ps output of publishing partner was really horrible. > > In my opinion, get a taiwanese 386 PC VGA compatible. > The original poster likes OS-9 and Motorola assembly language. PC > clones have their places, but I sure wouldn't inflict them on someone > with those interests. Crazy memory models, incompatible video modes, > overpriced software, severe RAM limitations ... who needs it? I said a 386 !!! -- not a 286! Problem: this was true when I bought my first ST. Just because your ST stayed the same for 3 years doesn't mean the other computers didn't evolve! Look at a 386, this is now a real processor. I agree the 286 was a pile of shit. Moreover, the competitions for PC peripherals makes them often cheaper than STs. > If your > boss makes you buy one, that's one thing, but for a hobby, why do it > to yourself? My main use... games! Good strategic games or simulations are now made first on PCs... Good arcade games are made for consoles and perhaps the amiga. The ST niche is dying for the game enthusiast As soon as FTL and Bullfrog, the last good quality companies that develop first on ST/Amiga before PCs will develop first for PCs, my ST will have the same fate as my good old appleII, yet you see a lot of odball applications on the appleII still today :) Colas Nahaboo, Bull Research France -- Koala Project -- GWM X11 Window Manager colas@avahi.inria.fr Phone: (33) 93.65.77.70, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 66 INRIA - Sophia Antipolis, 2004, rte des Lucioles, 06565 Valbonne Cedex, FRANCE
colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) (07/25/90)
In article <13836@shlump.nac.dec.com>, gilliam@lowlif.dec.com writes: > >>By the way, Colas, if you want ANSI C you could try Turbo C or gcc. I cannot read german for turbo C, I don't have a hard disk for gcc (that I use daily I at work, the best unix compiler!) > Prospero C is ANSI compatible. The documentation is in English. Now, that's some actual information!
saj@chinet.chi.il.us (Stephen Jacobs) (07/26/90)
In article <32058@cup.portal.com> Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com writes: >Wow... Atari Cheerleaders to the rescue...! > >Convince this poor slob to spend his money on the Atari Myth... > >Gloss over the fact that there are fewer than 50 active Atari dealers >in the entire U.S.of A... so he can forget local support unless he's >lucky enough to live near one of the surviving Atari dealers.. > Ok, I'm not sure I like being called an Atari cheerleader, but I still think the Atari ST is a decent choice for a home computer. And that's based very firmly on what can be bought today. NO allowances for what's promised. But that's not the main issue here. I live in the Chicago area. We have, as Atari dealers, Computer Cellar, two branches of Software Plus, a couple of 'sorta' atari dealers (Mars Merchandising and Computer Grove) and one more I never remember the name of. A game store, 'Gamers Paradise' can special order Atari Stuff. At least 4 other operations- Apple Annie (I kid you not), Kolputer Systems, F&D and(please forgive me if you're reading this, Gerry--I forget the name of your business) handle Atari software and accessories. And I am absolutely certain this list isn't complete. Makes me wonder if Atari dealers are all THAT scarce. Now it happens that I know megabyte (the fella who asked the original question). He lives in the DC area. Anyone read 'Current Notes'? I don't think he'll be hurting for local support if he picks an ST. Steve J.
pietrzak@skybridge.SCL.CWRU.Edu (John Pietrzak) (07/26/90)
In article <32058@cup.portal.com> Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com writes: >Wow... Atari Cheerleaders to the rescue...! > >Convince this poor slob to spend his money on the Atari Myth... > >Gloss over the fact that there are fewer than 50 active Atari dealers >in the entire U.S.of A... so he can forget local support unless he's >lucky enough to live near one of the surviving Atari dealers.. > >Smokescreen the fact that most of the large software companies have abandoned >the Atari market as not being worth their effort any longer, due to the games >Atari Corp has played with them... > >Vaporize him with mythical tales of the wonderful products Atari is going >to bring out *someday* ... deflect him from buying truly useful computer >systems *TODAY* with lots of vaportales of Atari products to come... > >Neglect to tell him that he better learn German as a second language if he >buys into the Atari market, since there's little support for Atari here in >the US... > >Forget to mention that Atari Corp has NO credibility left in the "big picture >of the computer marketplace, whether "high powered" computing or "game >machine" entertainment value... > >Yeah... "ATARI RAH RAH"... that's the spirit...! > >BobR Wow... Atari Naysayers on the scene! Convince this poor inquisitive fellow that Atari computers are worthless... Ignore the possibility that any local dealer exists near this person (I have three near me)... Don't even mention the availabilty of mail order... Forget the many useful programs already available for desktop publishing, programming, word processing... Go ahead and lump all the current software publishers in the ST market into the "minor company" category... Brainwash him with tales of vaporous products never seeing the light of day... Ignore the fact that his original query dealt with the 1040 ST, a solid product for several years, being replaced now with the non-vapor STE line... Don't admit the possibility that anyone currently living in the continental United States has any remote interest in the ST (including yourself, writing that dispassionate, disinterested posting)... Absolutely DO mention that Atari the corporation has no credibility left. However, attribute this opinion to the entire computer market, rather than being your own feelings. Yeah... "Atari BOO HISS"... That's the productive way to spend the day! :) J P
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (07/26/90)
In article <3149@syma.sussex.ac.uk> grahamt@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Graham Thomas) writes: >thought, or (more likely) our problems are just too weird. Maybe it's >about time to take Ken Badertscher's advice of last year, spread out the Ken who? I can't remember the last time he posted. Does he still work for Atari??? >chicken blood and dance round the machine. Come to think of it, the >problem he suggested that as an answer to (a variant of the 'phantom >typist') hasn't gone away yet either. :-) > >I'd better stop before I get too firmly into Chris Mauritz mode. :-) Hehe, I'm touched. :-) BTW, do you know any good mail order places that deal in chicken blood? :-) > >Graham Cheers, Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |Donde hay una cerveza cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |hay un plan. (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null |El Guerrero Aereo es el rey! ------------------------------+---------------------------
wolf@cbnewsh.att.com (thomas.wolf) (07/26/90)
In article <3149@syma.sussex.ac.uk> grahamt@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Graham Thomas) writes: ...[deleted stuff]... > >What worries me more is that I got only one offsite reply to a previous >query about problems with our Mega/HD/Laser systems. (Thanks, Robin of >Galadriel.) Either there are fewer knowledgeable people around than I >thought, or (more likely) our problems are just too weird. I have noticed what might be a third possibility: fewer people seem to be posting to this newsgroup than in the past. I've been following this newsgroup off and on for the last 4 years (ever since I bought my 1040ST in 1986.) Back then, it seemed that there were never less than 50 new messages each time I logged in (on a daily basis)...there were usually quite a few more messages in c.s.a.s than there were in the Amiga newsgroup (admittedly, a contributing factor being frequent posts by Amiga users preaching the virtues of the Amiga vs. the vices of the ST :-) These days, there is more traffic in the Amiga group (and even more in comp.windows.x :-) than there is here. What's more, there tend to be more technical "discussions" (ie. question-answer posts) in other newsgroups. So what's my point? I don't know. There seems to be a relationship between the success of a product and the number of postings in the newsgroup relating to that product. I do not think Atari Corp. is in trouble (what do you expect me to say - I own lots of Atari shares ;-( but I do think that the ST line is closing in on obsolescence. What is going to keep Atari alive, in the near future, are continuing sales in Europe and Lynx/Portfolio/whatever else Atari sells here in the US. In the long term...I don't know. Atari had a great chance to be a big player when it initially developed (well, Perihelion, I guess) the Abaq/ATW/Transputer. The machine, for which I had seen some initial specs in 1987(?) was great for its time. Had Atari managed to market/produce this machine on a grand scale, I believe Atari could have broken into the very lucrative workstation market. Now, it is 1990 and we're waiting for the TT to appear - a machine that is in EVERY WAY inferior to the 1987 ATW (from the specs I've seen on the net.) Not only that, some would argue that the TT is in some ways inferior to any ole' '386 clone with Super VGA and large capacity hard-disk......but I don't BLAME Atari for having chosen the path they did. It is always easy to look at a situation in retrospect and say "you should've done this and this and this..." I'm sure Atari Corp. (or at least the Tramiels) had their reasons. If personal greed or short-term profits were among them, even that would be excusable - after all, we live in a capitalist society. On a different subject.... Personally, I'm a Sun Sparcstation convert. Can't afford one (yet), but if I had $10,000, that would be the machine to get. No PCs provide as much hardware _and_ software (operating system and development tools) for the money ('486s and the Mac IIfx don't even come close)...and for a bonus, you get a product that is supported not only by a reputable company but by nearly every major university in the country :-) Well, I've rambled on for long enough. 12:30 is close at hand and I don't want to miss Dave's Top 10 :-) Tom -- +-------------------------------------+ "Stupid" questions are better than | Tom Wolf | (201) 949-2079 | no questions at all. No answer is | Bell Labs, NJ | wolf@spanky.att.com | better than a stupid one. +-------------------------------------+
Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com (07/26/90)
Colas Nahaboo says: >As soon as FTL and Bullfrog, the last good quality companies that develop >first on ST/Amiga before PCs will develop first for PCs, my ST will have the >same fate as my good old appleII, yet you see a lot of odball applications >on the appleII still today :) Dunno about Bullfrog, but FTL is ready to release Dungeon Master on the IBM PC this Fall/Xmas, with a FREE DAC converter plug to give high-quality sound, and a Mac version of Dungeon Master is close... So what, you say...? Lots of companies port their software to other machines.. Well, FTL is going to be developing *NEW* products exclusively on the Mac... They like the ST, but what are you going to do when the "parent" company of the hardware jerks the market around.. For me, this means I have to buy a Macintosh if I want to develop new games with them, and contrary to what the cheerleaders around here think, I like my ST better than anything else I've ever used... but "business is business" BobR
Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com (07/26/90)
John Pietrzak finishes with:
>Yeah... "Atari BOO HISS"... That's the productive way to spend the day!
Nope... a productive day is writing a hintbook on my Atari ST which will
be sold to the uncounted millions of IBM and Mac computer owners..
It's not their fault they bought the wrong computer system, but Atari Corp
didn't a goddammed thing to help them know the error of their ways, but
since they're stuck with inferior systems, we Atari owners need to help
them in any way we can...
Do *YOU* feel comfortable lying to someone, and telling them that everything
in the Atari universe is just rosy...?
BobRscott@cs.odu.edu (Scott Yelich) (07/26/90)
>Hehe, I'm touched. :-) BTW, do you know any good mail order places >that deal in chicken blood? :-) What? Mail order? Just check out your local neighborhood Atari dealer... [Uh oh, I shouldn't hsaid that, should I?] >Cheers, Another joke? Chris, you're so funny.
cmm1@CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Christopher M Mauritz) (07/26/90)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st Subject: Re: Time for a New Computer: Should it be an Atari ST? Summary: Expires: References: <13836@shlump.nac.dec.com> <32058@cup.portal.com> <1990Jul25.185054.1847@chinet.chi.il.us> Sender: Reply-To: cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: Columbia University Keywords: Dealers numbers In article <1990Jul25.185054.1847@chinet.chi.il.us> saj@chinet.chi.il.us (Stephen Jacobs) writes: >In article <32058@cup.portal.com> Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com writes: >>Wow... Atari Cheerleaders to the rescue...! >> >>Convince this poor slob to spend his money on the Atari Myth... >> >>Gloss over the fact that there are fewer than 50 active Atari dealers >>in the entire U.S.of A... so he can forget local support unless he's >>lucky enough to live near one of the surviving Atari dealers.. >> >Ok, I'm not sure I like being called an Atari cheerleader, but I still think >the Atari ST is a decent choice for a home computer. And that's based very >firmly on what can be bought today. NO allowances for what's promised. But >that's not the main issue here. > >I live in the Chicago area. We have, as Atari dealers, Computer Cellar, two >branches of Software Plus, a couple of 'sorta' atari dealers (Mars Merchandising >and Computer Grove) and one more I never remember the name of. A game store, >'Gamers Paradise' can special order Atari Stuff. At least 4 other operations- >Apple Annie (I kid you not), Kolputer Systems, F&D and(please forgive me if >you're reading this, Gerry--I forget the name of your business) handle Atari >software and accessories. And I am absolutely certain this list isn't >complete. Makes me wonder if Atari dealers are all THAT scarce. Well, I live in the largest city in these here United States. :-) As far as I can tell, ST software is significantly harder to find now in NYC than it was when I bought my ST a few years ago. I can only think of one or two places that have any decent selection of titles. The exception is, of course, MIDI software. Several large music stores have STs displayed and have a decent amount of MIDI titles in stock. The only seller of ST's that comes to mind other than the music stores is J&R Music World, a big mail order outfit with a showroom near Wall St. However, the ST's on display have been broken for ages. I don't think I've seen them turned on in months and I don't ever recall seeing mice attached so that a customer could try it out. Not that it matters, since they are in a rather dark corner behind a brighly lit and active Amiga display. If this is the kind of marketing we can look forward to in a major city like New York....draw your own conclusions. > >Now it happens that I know megabyte (the fella who asked the original question). >He lives in the DC area. Anyone read 'Current Notes'? I don't think he'll >be hurting for local support if he picks an ST. Yep, I've heard there is a very active user group base in that area and a few stores that deal in ST wares as well. > > Steve J. Cheers, Chris p.s. Stock doom to come soon...as per Greg Lindahl's request. :-) ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |Donde hay una cerveza cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |hay un plan. (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null |El Guerrero Aereo es el rey! ------------------------------+---------------------------
soh@shiva.trl.oz (kam hung soh) (07/27/90)
colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) writes: [ ... reply to question on upgrade from CoCo3 to Atari ST ...] >In my opinion, get a taiwanese 386 PC VGA compatible. That's the route I will >follow as soon as they will cost less than the price I payed my first ST, >about $1500 (now you have a 286 for this price). I had STs for the past three >years, enjoyed them, but their time is counted... The amiga may survive since >it has a credible successor with the A3000, but it is much more expensive than >PC-compatibles for non professional graphic uses. Speaking from Melbourne, Commodore dealers have reduced the price of a 68020 upgrade for the Amiga 2000 by as much as a third in anticipation of the Amiga 3000. It is now possible to get an Amiga with as much grunt as a 386 VGA machine with windowing software. (NO! No wars here! If you want to dissuade me, send email!) As an aside: have you noticed that when people compare IBM-clones with either the Atari ST or Amigas, they thoughtfully neglect to mention how much it costs to get a mouse, windowing software, a fast graphics card, an operating system that multitasks, and enough memory to get it working? My impression is that buying a IBM-clone with all the add-ons and legitimate software would cost more than an equivalent Amiga or ST. Second aside: I read a rather biased article in some so-called professional magazine (it was so biased I forgot the title) about animation on the Apple Mac. It started with the writer wondering why the Mac couldn't do colour animation like the Amigas, and ended with a recommendation to buy a 24-bit colour card for the Mac II. That writer (again, thoughtfully) forgot to mention how much such a colour card would cost, and concluded by saying that Mac users now had the same opportunities as Amiga users in doing animation. --- Soh, Kam Hung email: h.soh@trl.oz.au tel: +61 03 541 6403 Telecom Research Laboratories, P.O. Box 249, Clayton, Victoria 3168, Australia
rg@sisd.kodak.com (Rich Gortatowsky) (07/27/90)
In article <1990Jul25.195625.18597@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> pietrzak@skybridge.SCL.CWRU.Edu (John Pietrzak) writes: >In article <32058@cup.portal.com> Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com writes: >>Wow... Atari Cheerleaders to the rescue...! >> >>Convince this poor slob to spend his money on the Atari Myth... >> > >Convince this poor inquisitive fellow that Atari computers are worthless... > >Ignore the possibility that any local dealer exists near this person (I have >three near me)... Don't even mention the availabilty of mail order... I have one, half-heartedly, mail order is rapidly decreasing. FACT: call em' >Forget the many useful programs already available for desktop publishing, >programming, word processing... Go ahead and lump all the current software >publishers in the ST market into the "minor company" category... I can think of ONE good WP (the PC? 20+), as for DTP, well, I think Ready Set Go (whome by the way purged the ST version early in development) makes most any I've encountered look silly. >Brainwash him with tales of vaporous products never seeing the light of day... >Ignore the fact that his original query dealt with the 1040 ST, a solid >product for several years, being replaced now with the non-vapor STE line... Solid? Depends, I dont drop computers. Vaporous products? We all know that tale all to well thank you. >Don't admit the possibility that anyone currently living in the continental >United States has any remote interest in the ST (including yourself, writing >that dispassionate, disinterested posting)... You hit it exact... Remote. Increasingly so. >Absolutely DO mention that Atari the corporation has no credibility left. >However, attribute this opinion to the entire computer market, rather >than being your own feelings. How true. I developed on the ST from day one. My mis-fortune. And, literally mean fortune. Least $$$ I've ever made w/ a machine, includin' the TRS-80 model 1. Bad software Maybe? No, try Deskcart! (rated as the best add on product for the ST on multiple occasions in multiple publications). Sad indeed.. I wont say what I made on Deskcart!, it's embaressin'. Nuff' to say a pal wrote a text editor (2nd program he EVER wrote) on a PC clone at made more shareware than I did commercially. (sad!). The credibility is gone (in my mind and computerdom). Another program I wrote, PRINT-IT! never went to market, and, in alpha/beta testing was on pirate BBS's. I'm impressed! I made $0.00 on that one, as, after this happened it was decided that an estimated 40-50% of ST users had it already. This is where I DROPPED the ST (I still have my machine though, could'nt get nuff' $$$ sellin' it). The bottom line of the whole mish-mosh is should we again buy atari? I sure won't, The PC's are more powerful/affordable/supportable/expandable installable/workable/useable/available/fixable/likeable. -- Jeff Gortatowsky {seismo,allegra}!rochester!kodak!elmgate!jdg Eastman Kodak Company These comments are mine alone and not Eastman Kodak's. How's that for a simple and complete disclaimer?
rg@sisd.kodak.com (Rich Gortatowsky) (07/27/90)
In article <32102@cup.portal.com> Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com writes: >John Pietrzak finishes with: >>Yeah... "Atari BOO HISS"... That's the productive way to spend the day! > >Nope... a productive day is writing a hintbook on my Atari ST which will >be sold to the uncounted millions of IBM and Mac computer owners.. > >It's not their fault they bought the wrong computer system, but Atari Corp >didn't a goddammed thing to help them know the error of their ways, but >since they're stuck with inferior systems, we Atari owners need to help >them in any way we can... > >Do *YOU* feel comfortable lying to someone, and telling them that everything >in the Atari universe is just rosy...? > Lets all face it. Knowone likes to admit, "I made a bad purchase". I show you McPeople in countless numbers that can almost be considered a religion. Atari owners are like this. PC owners just dont care, while we're argue'n, their using their computers for something useful. Inferior as stated above, is a poor choice of wording, since if it does the job for the purchaser its not inferior. As for the atari universe, I beleive I've hit the nail on the head. Think about it, the atari ST was a SUPER! buy in its day. The Lynx makes the Lameboy Nintendo look silly. Atari does grandly in europe. Put two and two together. Maybe? Atari US does NOT! want to make money. Or, maybe they want to write off losses? Or maybe it's the parent organization of atari UK/Canada and cant let the US parent go belly up (ie: we'll goat consumers into purchasers, or worse yet, promise OLD atari users items never intended to get to them). After all.... If one market does well, another should at worst do moderately (at least in the computer area). Think about it a bit will ya'll. -- Jeff Gortatowsky {seismo,allegra}!rochester!kodak!elmgate!jdg Eastman Kodak Company These comments are mine alone and not Eastman Kodak's. How's that for a simple and complete disclaimer?
stephen@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Steve Whitney) (07/27/90)
In article <1990Jul24.134702.11337@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >In article <1990Jul23.214712.17020@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gl8f@astsun9.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes: ... > >I'm sick and tired of you trying to crown yourself net.moderator for >this group. Who are you to judge what is useful and what is not? >If Colas' article was useless, then so is your chastizing him for >posting it (you could've done that by email, eh?) > >I didn't see anything inciteful about the post. It was full of rather >accurate information, even if it wasn't to the liking of ST >cheerleaders like yourself. > *MILD FLAME ON* Of course you don't see any problem with it. Your own posts are much more inciteful than the one Greg repsonded to. I agree with Greg that the post was somewhat lopsided (written from a power-user point of view). I, personally, am glad to see Greg's postings. Many of us are happy with our STs and prefer them to various other systems for various reasons. Greg represents a group of people who often don't have net access, and I for one appreciate it. *FLAME OFF* -Steve >Cheers, > >Chris >------------------------------+--------------------------- >Chris Mauritz |Donde hay una cerveza >cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |hay un plan. >(c)All rights reserved. | >Send flames to /dev/null |El Guerrero Aereo es el rey! >------------------------------+--------------------------- -- Steve Whitney "It's never _really_ the last minute" (())_-_(()) UCLA Comp. Sci. Grad. Student | (* *) | Internet: stephen@cs.ucla.edu UCLA Bruin--> { \_@_/ } GEnie: S.WHITNEY `-----'
davidli@simvax.labmed.umn.edu (07/27/90)
In article <1990Jul26.235749.11235@sisd.kodak.com>, rg@sisd.kodak.com (Rich Gortatowsky) writes: > How true. I developed on the ST from day one. My mis-fortune. ... > model 1. Bad software Maybe? No, try Deskcart! (rated as the best add on > product for the ST on multiple occasions in multiple publications). Ever think that the market wasn't there? I believe I speak for quite a large number of people when I say that I never considered purchasing Deskcart because it didn't meet any need that I had at the time. That's a fact of the software business which I've found many companies unable to accept -- people didn't want to purchase their software because it didn't meet their needs. > Another program I wrote, PRINT-IT! never went > to market, and, in alpha/beta testing was on pirate BBS's. I'm impressed! This says more about your ability to pick alpha/beta testers than anything else. I must be part of the 50-60% of ST users who never saw PRINT-IT!. Of course you have to realize that well over 60% of ST users -don't- have a modem. I haven't come across any pirate boards in the 8 years I've had a modem (on my Apple II+/e and then for my Atari ST). > The bottom line of the whole mish-mosh is should we again buy atari? In your case, no. I'd suggest you purchase a nice 386 machine and go bother the folks on comp.sys.ibm.pc. Perhaps you could even write programs like your friend and make bundles of money. As for selling your ST -- it's a fact of life that you'll never get as much as you'd like from the sale, regardless of your machine. There are plenty of Mac 512K-e owners who are in the same boat. -- David Paschall-Zimbel davidli@simvax.labmed.umn.edu
erkamp@arcsun.arc.ab.ca (Bob Erkamp) (07/27/90)
Well as usual this is getting out of hand and no real useful information is being produced. I think the bottom line is that any hardware platform has it niche (some may be bigger than others) and the real key is software. The most important thing is what do YOU want to do with the machine. If that question can't be answered save your money. Once you decided on the type(s) of software you are looking at investigate what's available for the hardware platforms you can afford as well as compatibility with people you wish to share datafiles with. You should also consider the ability for expansion (memory, disk capacity, peripherals). I beleive that all the machines have decent software at the introductory (hobbyist) level. It's when you get into the serious (professional level) products that one or two of the hardware platforms will stick out as the possible solution. Examples MIGHT be the Atari for MIDI, the Amiga or Apple for Mulitmedia the IBM for CAD (no flames please). In the future when someone requests info about the Atari hopefully we will suggest some decent software packages for their application and then let them decide if this is the way to go. Bob Erkamp
soh@shiva.trl.oz (kam hung soh) (08/01/90)
soh@shiva.trl.oz (kam hung soh) writes: >Speaking from Melbourne, Commodore dealers have reduced the price of >a 68020 upgrade for the Amiga 2000 by as much as a third in >anticipation of the Amiga 3000. ... Ooops! Made a mistake there. The shop is in New South Wales, not Melbourne. I've just had an inquiry and realised my mistake when I reread the advertisement in the Australian Commodore and Amiga Review (July 1990). Serves me right for shooting off my article without checking. Soh, Kam Hung email: h.soh@trl.oz.au tel: +61 03 541 6403 Telecom Research Laboratories, P.O. Box 249, Clayton, Victoria 3168, Australia
vilkas@ultima.cs.uts.oz (Jhary a Conel) (08/02/90)
soh@shiva.trl.oz (kam hung soh) writes: >soh@shiva.trl.oz (kam hung soh) writes: >>Speaking from Melbourne, Commodore dealers have reduced the price of >>a 68020 upgrade for the Amiga 2000 by as much as a third in >>anticipation of the Amiga 3000. ... >Ooops! Made a mistake there. The shop is in New South Wales, not >Melbourne. I've just had an inquiry and realised my mistake when I >reread the advertisement in the Australian Commodore and Amiga Review >(July 1990). WHERE? Please inform where this was & what price! I would dearly love to turbo charge my 2000. Jhary a Conel aka vilkas