paone@aramis.rutgers.edu (Phil Paone) (08/06/90)
Hi, I havn't been keeping up with the ST worl lately. Has anyone ported the client side of X to the atari ST? In particular the 1040? Thanks, Phil -- Phil Paone attmail!ppaone !rutgers.edu!aramis.edu!ppaone paone@aramis.rutgers.edu "Dinna ya know a jailbreak when ya see it?"
roarment@faui09.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Roberto Armenti) (08/09/90)
paone@aramis.rutgers.edu (Phil Paone) writes: >Hi, >I havn't been keeping up with the ST worl lately. Has anyone ported >the client side of X to the atari ST? In particular the 1040? >Phil Hi Phil ! I once heard about such a thing named X/ST/Window or something like this, but I never could get some info on that. Perhaps someone out here can help us, as I'm looking for an X client for the ST, too. Help would be appreciated MfG Roberto -- please contact ( no commercials please ) * Roberto Armenti * Voice * For E-Mail * On IRC * Wielandstrasse 6 * 0841/ * roarment@faui09.informatik. * madguitar * 8070 Ingolstadt * 52126 * uni-erlangen.de * or just mad
wolf@cbnewsh.att.com (thomas.wolf) (08/09/90)
In article <roarment.650147785@faui09> roarment@faui09.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Roberto Armenti) writes: >paone@aramis.rutgers.edu (Phil Paone) writes: > > >>Hi, > >>I havn't been keeping up with the ST worl lately. Has anyone ported >>the client side of X to the atari ST? In particular the 1040? > >>Phil > >Hi Phil ! > I once heard about such a thing named X/ST/Window or something > like this, but I never could get some info on that. > > Perhaps someone out here can help us, as I'm looking for an X > client for the ST, too. There are dozens of "clients" which come with the MIT X distribution. Perhaps you meant to ask whether anyone ported the X server to the ST? I, too, asked this question some time ago, but got no answer (well, I seem to recall someone in Germany mentioning that he/she was working on a server port -- but don't know what came of it.) It would be interesting to see an X port on an unmodified ST. You almost _need_ multi-tasking to run the X Server and a reasonable number of X clients - although, I suppose with creativity, you could run the server as an "accessory" and a single X client from the desktop. If you intend on using the ST as an "X Terminal" (ie. just run the X server), your server would have to know either SLIP (serial line Internet Protocol) if you connect another machine running X clients via the ST's serial port _or_ TCP/IP if you can find an ethernet board for the ST. In either case, you need at least one other machine to do anything useful. Sorry I can't be of more help, Tom -- +-------------------------------------+ "Stupid" questions are better than | Tom Wolf | (201) 949-2079 | no questions at all. No answer is | Bell Labs, NJ | wolf@spanky.att.com | better than a stupid one. +-------------------------------------+
suhonen@tukki.jyu.fi (Timo Suhonen) (08/09/90)
In article <roarment.650147785@faui09> roarment@faui09.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Roberto Armenti) writes:
I once heard about such a thing named X/ST/Window or something
like this, but I never could get some info on that.
Perhaps someone out here can help us, as I'm looking for an X
client for the ST, too.
About two month ago I talked with a guy from X-Computer (a local Atari
dealer). He told me he had seen a X-Windows emulator for ST in C-Bit.
It was run in 2Meg and was written in Germany.
Timo
--
Timo Suhonen I am logged in, therefore I am suhonen@jyu.fi
suhonen@funic.funet.fi
Moderator for ftp site funic.funet.fi (128.214.6.100) Atari ST dirspa@fctunl.rccn.pt (Salvador Pinto Abreu) (08/10/90)
on 8 Aug 90 20:36:25 GMT, roarment@faui09.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Roberto Armenti) said: Roberto> paone@aramis.rutgers.edu (Phil Paone) writes: [...] >I havn't been keeping up with the ST worl lately. Has anyone ported >the client side of X to the atari ST? In particular the 1040? [...] You mean, an X *SERVER*? To run X clients on an ST would only make sense with a multitasking kernel with some form of IPC, and would have as a prerequisite a running X server on the ST. Roberto> Hi Phil ! Roberto> I once heard about such a thing named X/ST/Window or something Roberto> like this, but I never could get some info on that. If you do hear something more, please let me know. Roberto> Perhaps someone out here can help us, as I'm looking for an X Roberto> client for the ST, too. Roberto> Help would be appreciated What I'd really like to see is an X Server that could run over a serial line to a Unix host. Roberto> MfG Roberto> Roberto /.salvador -- --- Salvador Pinto Abreu BITNET/Internet: spa@fctunl.rccn.pt +---------------------------------+ UUCP: spa@unl.uucp | Departamento de Informatica +----------------------------------+ | Universidade Nova de Lisboa 2825 Monte Caparica, PORTUGAL | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
koreth@panarthea.ebay.sun.com (Steven Grimm) (08/10/90)
In article <roarment.650147785@faui09> roarment@faui09.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Roberto Armenti) writes: >paone@aramis.rutgers.edu (Phil Paone) writes: >>Has anyone ported the client side of X to the atari ST? > I'm looking for an X client for the ST, too. I can't help, but I think you both mean "server," not "client." An X server is the program which accepts drawing commands and puts a display up on your screen. X clients are the programs which send the drawing commands to the server. Note that (I think) it'd be possible to implement an X server on the ST without the use of any multitasking system; since all it needs to do is listen for requests from somewhere (presumably a UNIX or similar system on the other end of a SLIP or Ethernet connection) it's the only thing that needs to run. Finally, unless you do have Ethernet or some other reasonable-speed network connection to your ST, you are NOT going to want to run X. Even at 19200 baud, you'd find the system intolerably slow if you went through the serial port. Not that it wouldn't be a neat hack, but without some major compression or network hardware, an X server on the ST would be pretty useless. --- " !" - Marcel Marceau Steven Grimm Moderator, comp.{sources,binaries}.atari.st koreth@ebay.sun.com ...!sun!ebay!koreth
klute@heike-fbi.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (Rainer Klute) (08/10/90)
In article <roarment.650147785@faui09>, roarment@faui09.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Roberto Armenti) writes: > I once heard about such a thing named X/ST/Window or something > like this, but I never could get some info on that. Some months ago I asked Atari Germany about X/ST/window. They sent me a high glossing paper with some info. In short: - X/ST/window is an X server for Atari ST, TT and ATW. - The whole X Window System runs on Atari TT under ATX and on Atari STW under Helios. - X/ST/window bases on X/ST/multi, "a multitasking operating system which is totally compatible with the TOS of the Atari ST" (literal translation from German). It allows discoupling of the time critical protocol processes from the graphical software. - The ST monitor acts as a window and shows only a part of a virtual screen. The dimensions of this virtual screen is limited by memory only. - Network access is done via TCP/IP. Ah yes, and then they said it would be available at special computer stores by end of June 1990. Hmm, actually they said "90", not "1990". They don't mean 2090, do they? :-) -- Dipl.-Inform. Rainer Klute klute@unido.informatik.uni-dortmund.de Univ. Dortmund, IRB klute@unido.uucp, klute@unido.bitnet Postfach 500500 |)|/ Tel.: +49 231 755-4663 D-4600 Dortmund 50 |\|\ Fax : +49 231 755-2386
stefan@hpbbi4.BBN.HP.COM (#Stefan Bachert) (08/20/90)
/ hpbbi4:comp.sys.atari.st / koreth@panarthea.ebay.sun.com (Steven Grimm) / 1:25 am Aug 10, 1990 / In article <roarment.650147785@faui09> roarment@faui09.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Roberto Armenti) writes: > I can't help, but I think you both mean "server," not "client." An X server > is the program which accepts drawing commands and puts a display up on your > screen. X clients are the programs which send the drawing commands to the > server. No, the vice versa is true. The SERVER run the program The CLIENT is just the DISPLAY. Stefan
ericco@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (08/20/90)
I noticed in your article that you don't think that an X server on the ST would work over a modem. Why not? Have you seen the X-terminals that are widely available? They use a Sun4 as the host, and they have optimized the transmission lines. If you look at the MIT distribution of X11, you'd see that it is based on a small set of primitives. These primitives are basically rasterops. Sunview is designed on the same set of primitives. However, it is designed to run on Un*x, so it can simple check that the device supports PIXRECT primitives. If so, you can run Sunview on it. I think that a very similiar approach could be used for X11. Create a version of X11 that runs on Suns using PIXRECT primitives. Then, one would have to write a transmission layer for the modem. I have several ideas on this. The simplest is to transmit the rasterop codes over the modem. A more complex (but faster?) method may be to use an aggressive screen update algorithm for rasterops, like what emacs does with text. Don't get me wrong, I don't think this would be fast, but I think it would work. The X-terminals certainly work. Eric -- Eric ericco@ssl.berkeley.edu Eric ericco@ssl.berkeley.edu
wolf@cbnewsh.att.com (thomas.wolf) (08/21/90)
From article <510009@hpbbi4.BBN.HP.COM>, by stefan@hpbbi4.BBN.HP.COM (#Stefan Bachert): > / hpbbi4:comp.sys.atari.st / koreth@panarthea.ebay.sun.com (Steven Grimm) / 1:25 am Aug 10, 1990 / > In article <roarment.650147785@faui09> roarment@faui09.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Roberto Armenti) writes: > >> I can't help, but I think you both mean "server," not "client." An X server >> is the program which accepts drawing commands and puts a display up on your >> screen. X clients are the programs which send the drawing commands to the >> server. > > No, the vice versa is true. > The SERVER run the program > The CLIENT is just the DISPLAY. > > Stefan The original poster (Roberto?) is correct. Under the X Window system, the X Server receives requests (drawing primitives, event-notification, etc.) from X clients. Based on these requests, it handles the device-dependent aspect of the X window system (drawing to the physical screen(s), accepting inputs from mice, keyboards,etc.). Clients, on the other hand, receive events from the server notifying them when they should repaint their window(s), when the user hit the keyboard, moved or clicked on the mouse, etc. /dev/tom -- +-------------------------------------+ "Stupid" questions are better than | Thomas Wolf | (201) 949-8063 | no questions at all. No answer is | Bell Labs, NJ | wolf@spanky.att.com | better than a stupid one. +-------------------------------------+
wolf@cbnewsh.att.com (thomas.wolf) (08/21/90)
From article <1990Aug20.163330.17619@agate.berkeley.edu>, by ericco@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu: > > I noticed in your article that you don't think that an X server on the ST > would work over a modem. Why not? Have you seen the X-terminals that are > widely available? They use a Sun4 as the host, and they have > optimized the transmission lines. Hm. The only X-terminal I have seen to work reasonably well over serial lines were those from GraphOn. I believe they used some data compression techniques to get their results. Most X-terminals work because they're connected to hosts via a high-bandwidth Ethernet. Those X-terminals supporting SLIP (serial-line IP) don't seem to run reasonably fast over regular phone lines (ie. 1200-19200bps), especially when you have multiple clients running. > > If you look at the MIT distribution of X11, you'd see that it is based > on a small set of primitives. These primitives are basically > rasterops. Sunview is designed on the same set of primitives. > However, it is designed to run on Un*x, so it can simple check that > the device supports PIXRECT primitives. If so, you can run Sunview on > it. I think that a very similiar approach could be used for X11. > > Create a version of X11 that runs on Suns using PIXRECT primitives. > Then, one would have to write a transmission layer for the modem. I > have several ideas on this. The simplest is to transmit the rasterop > codes over the modem. A more complex (but faster?) method may be to > use an aggressive screen update algorithm for rasterops, like what > emacs does with text. > > Don't get me wrong, I don't think this would be fast, but I think it > would work. The X-terminals certainly work. > Eric > ericco@ssl.berkeley.edu There are several ways of optimizing the transmission of primitives over slow media. They all have the same "side-effect": they eliminate X Window's greatest plus (in my opinion) - being able to run _any_ remote X client on a network on your local X Server. Once you start optimizing (ie. coming up with your own transmission layer, using non-standard/compressed events, etc.), you're tied to a single host and/or single set of clients which "speak" this language. Mind you, I'm not trying to discourage you from writing an API that is Xlib compatible and works great over serial lines...I have a Sun at work and an ST at home and could make use of such a beast :-) Tom -- +-------------------------------------+ "Stupid" questions are better than | Thomas Wolf | (201) 949-8063 | no questions at all. No answer is | Bell Labs, NJ | wolf@spanky.att.com | better than a stupid one. +-------------------------------------+
klute@heike.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (Rainer Klute) (08/21/90)
In article <510009@hpbbi4.BBN.HP.COM>, stefan@hpbbi4.BBN.HP.COM (#Stefan Bachert) writes: |> The SERVER run the program |> The CLIENT is just the DISPLAY. I don't know where you got *that* knowledge from. I suggest you go and buy some introductory book about the X Window System :-). -- Dipl.-Inform. Rainer Klute klute@unido.informatik.uni-dortmund.de Univ. Dortmund, IRB klute@unido.uucp, klute@unido.bitnet Postfach 500500 |)|/ Tel.: +49 231 755-4663 D-4600 Dortmund 50 |\|\ Fax : +49 231 755-2386
klute@heike.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (Rainer Klute) (08/21/90)
In article <1990Aug20.163330.17619@agate.berkeley.edu>, ericco@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu writes: |> I noticed in your article that you don't think that an X server on the ST |> would work over a modem. Why not? Have you seen the X-terminals that are |> widely available? They use a Sun4 as the host, and they have |> optimized the transmission lines. Of course X will work over a modem. There's the SLIP package allowing it to do so. The problem is whether *you* will be able to work with it. Users expect reasonable response times today. -- Dipl.-Inform. Rainer Klute klute@unido.informatik.uni-dortmund.de Univ. Dortmund, IRB klute@unido.uucp, klute@unido.bitnet Postfach 500500 |)|/ Tel.: +49 231 755-4663 D-4600 Dortmund 50 |\|\ Fax : +49 231 755-2386
stefan@hpbbi4.BBN.HP.COM (#Stefan Bachert) (08/21/90)
/ hpbbi4:comp.sys.atari.st / stefan@hpbbi4.BBN.HP.COM (#Stefan Bachert) / 10:19 am Aug 20, 1990 / / hpbbi4:comp.sys.atari.st / koreth@panarthea.ebay.sun.com (Steven Grimm) / 1:25 am Aug 10, 1990 / >> I can't help, but I think you both mean "server," not "client." An X server >> is the program which accepts drawing commands and puts a display up on your >> screen. X clients are the programs which send the drawing commands to the >> server. >No, the vice versa is true. >The SERVER run the program >The CLIENT is just the DISPLAY. I have to correct myself. I was told the X Manual stated the opposite. So Steven Grimm was correct. Anyway this name convention isn't intuive. In general a server offers a service. A client uses this services. (Think in fileservers, diskless cluster, ..) X Manual thinks SERVER as offering a DISPLAY. As user I am thinking in cpu-power, compiling, calculating, wordprocessing. In X convention any dump terminal at any computer is a DISPLAY-SERVER while the computer itself is its CLIENT. So I am not glad about that convention. But convention doesn't need to be senseful or intelligent. Thank you for correcting me Stefan
dbrooks@osf.org (David Brooks) (08/22/90)
In article <510010@hpbbi4.BBN.HP.COM>, stefan@hpbbi4.BBN.HP.COM (#Stefan Bachert) writes: (re X client/server) |> Anyway this name convention isn't intuive. |> In general a server offers a service. A client uses this services. |> (Think in fileservers, diskless cluster, ..) Here's how I try to get it across when I do X presentations. In the traditional client/server paradigm, the client is the program that has the actual application smarts. The server is just the dumb part. Think of a database server; it doesn't initiate any useful computing. It simply does what the client tells it to, request by request. Similarly with the X server. It's dumb; it's a slave. It accepts drawing requests from the client program and input events from the user and does what it's told, usually without any information about the purpose of the application being executed. Unfortunately our earlier experiences have led us to think of the client as closely identified with the human, and the server as over there somewhere in another room (or another country). That's why the X paradigm *feels* backwards; the server is always under the user's nose, and the client could well be on Mars (requiring a longer WM_TIMEOUT value :-). Having said all that, it usually takes a couple of months for new X people to get comfortable with the nomenclature; mistakes are usually forgiven... -- David Brooks dbrooks@osf.org Systems Engineering, OSF uunet!osf.org!dbrooks
dag@gorgon.uucp (Daniel A. Glasser) (08/23/90)
In article <510009@hpbbi4.BBN.HP.COM> stefan@hpbbi4.BBN.HP.COM (#Stefan Bachert) writes: >/ hpbbi4:comp.sys.atari.st / koreth@panarthea.ebay.sun.com (Steven Grimm) / 1:25 am Aug 10, 1990 / >In article <roarment.650147785@faui09> roarment@faui09.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Roberto Armenti) writes: > >> I can't help, but I think you both mean "server," not "client." An X server >> is the program which accepts drawing commands and puts a display up on your >> screen. X clients are the programs which send the drawing commands to the >> server. > >No, the vice versa is true. >The SERVER run the program >The CLIENT is just the DISPLAY. > >Stefan No, Steven Grimm is correct. In the terminology used by the X window system, a "Server" provides a service to "Client" applications. The display is controlled by a "Server" process. The "Client" is an application which may run on the same machine or over a network. This may sound backward to those not initiated, but it actually makes a lot of sense. Consider that a single X windows server can have multiple clients accessing it at once. This is, in fact, the usual case, since the window manager is a client application as is whatever application that may be in direct use by the user. It is true that a single client application may use connect to several servers, but this is not very common. Enough said. End of thread. Daniel A. Glasser -- Daniel A. Glasser One of those things that goes dag%gorgon@persoft.com "BUMP! (ouch!)" in the night.
pfuetz@viktoria.grz (Matthias Pfuetzner) (08/23/90)
Hallo!
I do not believe that all that discussion about which part is the
client and which is to be called the server answers the question
indicated in the subject line! So let's try to answer whether there is
any Xserver (Xatari? compared to Xapollo, Xsun, etc.) available for
the Atari ST series.
Atari Germany is selling such a thing! Don't ask me things about the
performance, the prices, the requirements etc. Just call Mr. Mester at
Atari Germany, Frankfurter Strasse 89-91, D-6096 Raunheim, Fed. Rep.
of Germany , Tel.: +49 6142 2090. They are showing it on the Atari
exhibition in Koeln (Cologne) and he will be back in Raunheim on
Monday. This is a product develloped by a little softwarehouse in
Bavaria (near Munich) and it is available since this exibition (now).
So there are up to now nearly no persons who can give answers to
questions concering this piece of software.
Sincerly,
Matthias
@work: | Matthias Pfuetzner | @home:
ZGDV, Wilhelminenstrasse 7 | 6100 Darmstadt, FRG | Lichtenbergstrasse 73
+49 6151 155-164 or -101 \ <- Tel.nr. -> / +49 6151 75717
pfuetzner@agd.fhg.de pfuetzner@zgdvda.UUCP XBR1YD3U@DDATHD21.BITNETswen@uni-paderborn.de (Swen Thuemmler) (08/24/90)
In article <510009@hpbbi4.BBN.HP.COM> stefan@hpbbi4.BBN.HP.COM (#Stefan Bachert) writes: > I can't help, but I think you both mean "server," not "client." An X server > is the program which accepts drawing commands and puts a display up on your > screen. X clients are the programs which send the drawing commands to the > server. Stefan> No, the vice versa is true. Stefan> The SERVER run the program Stefan> The CLIENT is just the DISPLAY. Stefan> Stefan I'm sorry, but you are wrong. The SERVER ist the program which controls the physical display of your machine, i.e. Xsun or Xhp are Servers. The CLIENT is the program which sends protocol messages to the server, requesting drawing and such, i.e. xdbx, xterm, xclock, twm, ... are clients. Regards, Swen ----> Swen Thuemmler * X-Betreuung * <swen@uni-paderborn.de> <----x-window