gemibusi@ztivax.UUCP (Roland Lepold) (09/12/90)
The TT is finally there (at least in Germany)! Monday evening (the 10th of September) too my surprise I saw a TT in one of the shops of Munich that carry atari computers. The dealer told me, that they really sell them now. On saturday they already sold one and the customer left the shop with a TT and a smile on his face. That only to emphasizethat you can really get one. They demonstrated Calamus for another customer on the TT and a ST to show the speed difference. No wonder the TT was much faster even though he only had no fast RAM. As I entered the shop just before it closes I had no time for a closer look, so only a few informations. I hope, I remember the numbers right, but I can't guarentee it. The configuration with 32 Mhz, 48 MByte hard disk, 4 MByte RAM and a color monitor costs about 7500 DM.You get around 1.6 DM for 1 Dollar, but I think you can't calculate a reasonable american price out of it, because the Dollar isn't doing very well against the DM at the moment. I can't say anything about the new desktop, because I was satisfied with Calamus for the moment, as I didn't know that there is a new one. Uwe Seidel
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (09/13/90)
In article <1898@ztivax.UUCP> gemibusi@ztivax.UUCP (Roland Lepold) writes: > >The TT is finally there (at least in Germany)! GREAT! Judging from prior experience, that means we might see one in the US in 6 months or a year... >that they really sell them now. On saturday they already sold one and the >customer left the shop with a TT and a smile on his face. That only to emphasizethat you can really get one. They demonstrated Calamus for another customer I bet he was smiling! He must be rich! See below. >on the TT and a ST to show the speed difference. No wonder the TT was much >faster even though he only had no fast RAM. As I entered the shop just before With the price below and no fast RAM???? >it closes I had no time for a closer look, so only a few informations. I hope, >I remember the numbers right, but I can't guarentee it. The configuration with >32 Mhz, 48 MByte hard disk, 4 MByte RAM and a color monitor costs about 7500 DM.You get around 1.6 DM for 1 Dollar, but I think you can't calculate a reasonable That works out to be $4800 folks. You may as well buy a Sparcstation SLC, or a Mac IIci or an Amiga 3000, or a 33mhz 386, or.... Hardly a bargain by any stretch of the word. Anyone who can afford $5K for a PC would probably want more than a ST with a 68030 added on. > >Uwe Seidel Cheers, Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |D{r det finns en |l, finns cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |det en plan! (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null | ------------------------------+---------------------------
gl8f@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (09/14/90)
In article <1990Sep12.190508.3153@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >That works out to be $4800 folks. You may as well buy a Sparcstation SLC, or >a Mac IIci or an Amiga 3000, or a 33mhz 386, or.... Hardly a bargain by any >stretch of the word. Anyone who can afford $5K for a PC would probably want >more than a ST with a 68030 added on. Chris, you're comparing apples and oranges. Things like the SLC generally cost quite a bit more in Europe than in the US. The TT is new, and we won't see what the real discounted price is until it's been available for a few months. You won't know what the TT price in the US is until it's released in the US. And so on. The only person who knows what they want and what options are best and what price is reasonable is the person who's buying the computer, who has to make a decision based on their personal situation. -- "Perhaps I'm commenting a bit cynically, but I think I'm qualified to." - Dan Bernstein
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (09/14/90)
In article <1990Sep13.172935.1342@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gl8f@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes: >In article <1990Sep12.190508.3153@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: > >>That works out to be $4800 folks. You may as well buy a Sparcstation SLC, or >>a Mac IIci or an Amiga 3000, or a 33mhz 386, or.... Hardly a bargain by any >>stretch of the word. Anyone who can afford $5K for a PC would probably want >>more than a ST with a 68030 added on. > >Chris, you're comparing apples and oranges. Things like the SLC >generally cost quite a bit more in Europe than in the US. The TT is >new, and we won't see what the real discounted price is until it's >been available for a few months. You won't know what the TT price in >the US is until it's released in the US. And so on. I agree with (gulp, somebody alert the media!) you in that it is difficult to compare the prices until the items are widely available, but I don't think it is too far off the wall to base some speculation on prices that we see now. Sure, there may be some margin of error, but the alternative is to just not talk about the system at all. >The only person who knows what they want and what options are best and >what price is reasonable is the person who's buying the computer, who >has to make a decision based on their personal situation. This is true. However, ATari has touted itself as the Power without the price manufacturer, and judging by these recent prices disclosures they have lost that title. What market niche are they trying to enter? I don't get it. The machine's architecture is too closed to be of any use as a workstation. The price is too high for a home computer. There is no unix available to entice educational institutions to buy them. There is scant network support. The company has a history of leaving user support up to everyone else except Atari Corp so businesses certainly won't give it a shot either. I am at a loss to explain who they think will buy these hot rod STs. Other than ST developers who would like a fast platform to write software on, who would want one? I'm not trying to put the machine down mind you. I wouldn't mind having one myself. I'm just trying to ask some real world questions. Also, one other observation...Any other company who had a new product like this on store shelves would be promoting the damn thing. Am I to gather that I have to hear 2nd or 3rd hand reports on Usenet to know that the machine is for sale at stores in Europe?? Apple,IBM,SUN,<insert vendor> usually has a big media splash to announce new products like this so that people become aware of that new product. Actually, they usually do this BEFORE the product is available. How does Atari Corp. expect to sell these things if only a handful of net.hackers even knows of its existence? Again, I'm not trying to be cynical here. This is a real world (TM) question that begs for an answer. It is just such a damn shame to see such products relegated to the computing basement because of the bungling of the people producing the machines. Anyway, nuff said. >-- >"Perhaps I'm commenting a bit cynically, but I think I'm qualified to." > - Dan Bernstein Nothing wrong with a dose of cynicism. It's actually quite useful in retaining one's sanity in a situation such as we now have with ATC. Cheers, Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |D{r det finns en |l, finns cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |det en plan! (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null | ------------------------------+---------------------------
gl8f@astsun7.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (09/14/90)
In article <1990Sep13.185245.15406@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: > What market niche are they trying to enter? >I don't get it. The machine's architecture is too closed to be of >any use as a workstation. The price is too high for a home computer. etc. etc. Look, people have given plausible explainations for these things. It was argued, and no conclusion was arrived at. Why do you want to raise these questions again? No new answers will come out. Let's not discuss this here. [ PS - if you don't recall the comments: (1) most workstations have as low of an expansion capability of the TT, for example the Sun SLC, which Chris himself compared to the TT. (2) A high price now doesn't mean a high price in the future, and some "power" home users are willing to cough up that kind of money to buy a new CPU for their existing peripherals. Well the TT succeed? Only the future will tell. Speculating now won't get you anywhere. ] >Anyway, nuff said. PLEASE! >>-- >>"Perhaps I'm commenting a bit cynically, but I think I'm qualified to." >> - Dan Bernstein > >Nothing wrong with a dose of cynicism. It's actually quite >useful in retaining one's sanity in a situation such as we now >have with ATC. Yeah, but the point of this quote is to show how Mr. Bernstein comments about everything under the sun, because he considers himself an expert on everything. Now we have you telling us whether or not the TT will succeed in the marketplace. Give it a rest, Chris. If you want to reply to my PS, please do it in email. I am not saying I have *any* of the answers, just that arguing is useless. -- "Perhaps I'm commenting a bit cynically, but I think I'm qualified to." - Dan Bernstein
jhenders@van-bc.wimsey.bc.ca (John Henders) (09/14/90)
Thanks Chris. Now seeing as your so well informed,how about posting thcurrent retail prices in GERMANY. After all thats where the poster quo~rted the price from. Your automatic postings putting down any news anyone posts are becoming tedious. You must be related to this PETRA slug. Oh well /Christopher M Mauritz/h:j #Bye Chris,please don't change your name John Henders Vancouver,BC
ekrimen@csuchico.edu (Ed Krimen) (09/14/90)
Chris Mauritz writes:
- Also, one other observation...Any other company who had a new
- product like this on store shelves would be promoting the damn
- thing. Am I to gather that I have to hear 2nd or 3rd hand reports
- on Usenet to know that the machine is for sale at stores in Europe??
- Apple,IBM,SUN,<insert vendor> usually has a big media splash to
- announce new products like this so that people become aware of that
- new product. Actually, they usually do this BEFORE the product is
- available.
You criticize Atari for annoucing a product early. Above, you
criticize them for not annoucing a product early. "Damned if you do,
damned if you don't." Give them a break. Actually, you could blow
your top for as long as you want; no one's going to listen to you.
Go to your room and throw a tandrum.
- How does Atari Corp. expect to sell these things if only a handful
- of net.hackers even knows of its existence?
Atari has said in press releases that the TT will be shown at the
November COMDEX. Why is it that the bashers never see this material?
This is a paragraph from the San Francisco Chronicle's Business
section, June 21, 1990: "Atari has shipped about 500 of the TT
computers to software makers, so they can have their applications
software ready when the company introduces the machine at the COMDEX
computer show in Las Vegas next November." I've seen references like
this in USA Today and the San Francisco Examiner. You read the
newspaper, don't you?
- This is a real world (TM) question that begs for an answer.
Come back from Never-Neverland (this will Never happen, that will
Never happen) in a couple of months. When you come back, you'll have
your answer.apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) (09/14/90)
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >The machine's architecture is too closed to be of >any use as a workstation. I beg to differ! I think having SCSI and VME means there is a great deal of openness. You can buy lots of things on VME cards, even with the relatively limited A24/D16, half-Eurocard, 3U format of the TT's internal VME bus. In Dusseldorf at the Atari fair I saw a company selling a new box for the TT with slots for other form-factors of VME cards. They're still limited to A24/D16 (or A16/D8) but it is not unreasonable to suppose that the TT will have a big brother with full-size VME, more room inside for VME expansion and more rotating media, and a beefier power supply to drive those power-hungry peripherals. Sounds pretty open to me! (Note: "It is not unreasonable to suppose..." is my way of saying that I'm not giving away secrets, and certainly not making promises, just pointing out the obvious.) ============================================ Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. ...ames!atari!apratt
jhenders@van-bc.wimsey.bc.ca (John Henders) (09/14/90)
Re: Full size VME for big brother TT. Would it also be reasonable to suppose the full VME would have bus-mastering implemented.( fingers crossed ;^) ) John Henders(ubc-cs!van-bc!jhenders) Vancouver,BC
erkamp@arcsun.arc.ab.ca (Bob Erkamp) (09/14/90)
In article <1990Sep13.172935.1342@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gl8f@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes: >In article <1990Sep12.190508.3153@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: > >>That works out to be $4800 folks. You may as well buy a Sparcstation SLC, or >>a Mac IIci or an Amiga 3000, or a 33mhz 386, or.... Hardly a bargain by any >>stretch of the word. Anyone who can afford $5K for a PC would probably want >>more than a ST with a 68030 added on. > >Chris, you're comparing apples and oranges. Things like the SLC >generally cost quite a bit more in Europe than in the US. The TT is >new, and we won't see what the real discounted price is until it's >been available for a few months. You won't know what the TT price in >the US is until it's released in the US. And so on. > >The only person who knows what they want and what options are best and >what price is reasonable is the person who's buying the computer, who >has to make a decision based on their personal situation. I have to agree. We are currently looking at some X-terminals for work and these babes are around $5K CDN. I can should be able to get a TT that can do anything these terminals can do and more for about the same price. I personally can hardly wait. I hopefully will be able to use the software from my MEGA at home and have the improvements in speed etc. the the TT should bring. Bob Erkamp
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (09/14/90)
In article <2298@atari.UUCP> apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) writes: >cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >>The machine's architecture is too closed to be of >>any use as a workstation. >I beg to differ! I think having SCSI and VME means there is a great >deal of openness. I would tend to agree, to a point. The typical Desktop workstation, today, isn't very expandable. These are typified by the Sun Sparcstations; the SLC has nothing other than SCSI, the standard Sparcstations have 2 (monochrome) or 1 (color) S-Bus slots open. True workstations, however, are used in a much different situation that most PCs. You rarely add more than 8-16 megabytes of RAM to a workstation. It probably has a hard disk in the 100-200 meg range, and it's hooked up to a network. Tape backup, modems, additional storage is managed by a server node in the network, so there's little if any need to go beyond what the basic hard disk, memory, and Ethernet in a workstation. You pretty much get all you need in the basic package or over the network. Third party developers aren't crazy about workstations. On a PC, on the other hand, you're often in need of more configurability, and expansion cards cost considerably less than MultiBus or full-fledged VME. PC users add alternate displays, multiple serial port cards for their BBS, DSP cards for music, massive memory and coprocessors for ray tracing, data boards for lab work, etc. PC cards tend to be cheap when compared with workstation cards, both due to economies of scale and to generally less expensive and complex design requirements on PC buses. Maybe not all at once (Apple claims the AVERAGE Mac II owner uses 1.1 NuBus slots). You can probably substitute a high end PC with a card or two (there days, probably just Ethernet and, for some Workstation needs, a color megapixel display) for a Workstation -- 68030, 68040, 80386, and 80486 machines are CPU-speed comparable with low end computers designed specifically to be workstations. The other big difference you generally find is software cost. You don't pay $2000 for a Spreadsheet or Wordprocessor for your ST, more likely $100-$200. But it's not licensed for network use. >Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Get that coffee outta my face, put a Margarita in its place!
hyc@math.lsa.umich.edu (Howard Chu) (09/16/90)
In article <1990Sep13.185245.15406@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >speculation on prices that we see now. Sure, there may be some >margin of error, but the alternative is to just not talk about >the system at all. That would be no fun, eh? Oh well. But what good has speculation done in the past, particularly in *this* newsgroup? }-) >I don't get it. The machine's architecture is too closed to be of >any use as a workstation. The price is too high for a home computer. Too closed? I don't understand. Sun 3/50s and 3/60s are pretty closed systems, (particularly 3/50s!) but nobody bats an eye when you point to them and say "workstation!". The 3/50 is just a fixed board in a sealed box, no expansion options whatsoever. (No, you say, you can expand the memory in a 3/50 with 3rd party expansions! How is this any different than the ST?) Price is certainly an issue for personal systems, but I've seen a lot of pricey home computers these days. I think the world has seen enough ZX80s and VIC20s and PCJrs by now to realize that computers for the home should not be stripped down to the level of toys. If you want it to be useful, and have a serious purpose in mind, you will get a "serious" machine. >There is no unix available to entice educational institutions to >buy them. There is scant network support. The company has a history >of leaving user support up to everyone else except Atari Corp so >businesses certainly won't give it a shot either. I am at a loss >to explain who they think will buy these hot rod STs. Other than >ST developers who would like a fast platform to write software on, >who would want one? I'm not trying to put the machine down mind you. >I wouldn't mind having one myself. I'm just trying to ask some >real world questions. They've done a smart thing, they've contracted another company to port Unix to their platform. (Unisoft.) I don't think lack of unix or networking will be a problem for long, especially given Unisoft's rep. Who wants 386s? Who wants Mac IIfx's? People like speed. For the most part they don't care about the other features of the architecture, like the cache operation, bus cycle times, memory management, pipelining, etc., but they can see the speed difference. If Intel made a 40MHz 8086, they could probably sell millions. Nobody cares about the majority of the improvements of a 386 over an 8086, they just like speed. (And of course, the large fraction of those who *do* care care for the wrong reasons. So it goes...) >Also, one other observation...Any other company who had a new >product like this on store shelves would be promoting the >damn thing. Am I to gather that I have to hear 2nd or 3rd hand >reports on Usenet to know that the machine is for sale at stores >in Europe?? Apple,IBM,SUN,<insert vendor> usually has a big >media splash to announce new products like this so that people >become aware of that new product. Actually, they usually do >this BEFORE the product is available. How does Atari Corp. >expect to sell these things if only a handful of net.hackers >even knows of its existence? Again, I'm not trying to be >cynical here. This is a real world (TM) question that begs >for an answer. It is just such a damn shame to see such >products relegated to the computing basement because of the >bungling of the people producing the machines. Good points. I wonder why none of these big guys have trouble with the FCC and pre-announcing new systems. Perhaps because they don't target the home market, and it's easier to get class A certification than B or C. But Atari hasn't done any serious advertising in a long time, why would you expect that to change now? Especially with their current anti-vaporware policy? -- -- Howard Chu @ University of Michigan one million data bits stored on a chip, one million bits per chip if one of those data bits happens to flip, one million data bits stored on the chip...
mboen@nixpbe.UUCP (Martin Boening) (09/16/90)
Your margin of error is pretty big: The Sparcstation SLC will cost around
12000 DM (in words: twelve thousand DM). And its a diskless, fanless SPARC
workstation - not much good for the home user without a server, eh.
I'll look up the prices for a MacIIic, the average 386 PC (33 MHz, 4MBRam,
colour VGA and >=48MB hd) and keep you posted about their price. Maybe I can
even find out what an Amiga 3000 costs.
On the whole I think we'll soon see the TT in the mentioned configuration for
less that 7000 DM. And that's a pretty good offer. Power without the price is
one thing. You always have to show a profit, though, as you've said yourself
often enough.
So long.
Martin
--
Email: in the USA -> mboening.pad@nixdorf.com
outside USA -> mboening.pad@nixdorf.de
Paper Mail: Martin Boening, Nixdorf Computer AG, PSD-C63
Pontanusstr. 55, 4790 Paderborn, W.-Germany (Phone: +49 5251 146155)rwa@cs.athabascau.ca (Ross Alexander) (09/19/90)
mboen@nixpbe.UUCP (Martin Boening) writes: >Your margin of error is pretty big: The Sparcstation SLC will cost around >12000 DM (in words: twelve thousand DM). And its a diskless, fanless SPARC >workstation - not much good for the home user without a server, eh. Get your facts straight before posting. It prevents embarrassment. Look on the back of a SLC. See the SCSI port? Guess what plugs in there! Why, SCSI peripherals - imagine that. Disks and tapes and all kinds of clever stuff. But *not* servers. They (servers) plug in the ethernet connector, also supplied on _all_ Suns; but you don't have to have a server if you've got local disk... (the sun I'm posting from has 650 megs local and no server). Also: SLC's can be had for less than $3.5k - shop around. Bluntly, no CISC box that I know of now can be justified on price/performance grounds when compared to (almost) any MIPS / SPARC / 88K / generic RISC machine, unless you already have a large body of non-portable software. But that particular arguement can also be used to justify IBM 3090s and all manner of like overpriced beasties. 68030 boxes essentially don't cut it. The TT was born dead, but Jack & co aren't going to tell anybody :-) -- -- Ross Alexander rwa@cs.athabascau.ca (403) 675 6311 ve6pdq
mboen@nixdorf.de (Martin Boening) (09/21/90)
In comp.sys.atari.st you write: >Get your facts straight before posting. It prevents embarrassment. Might I suggest the same to you? I knew all you are going to tell, BUT (see below). >Look on the back of a SLC. See the SCSI port? Guess what plugs in >there! Why, SCSI peripherals - imagine that. Disks and tapes and all >kinds of clever stuff. But *not* servers. They (servers) plug in the >ethernet connector, also supplied on _all_ Suns; but you don't have >to have a server if you've got local disk... (the sun I'm posting from >has 650 megs local and no server). I'm quite aware that you connect to server machines with Ethernet and not with a 300 Bd dial-up modem, you know. However, (see below). >Also: SLC's can be had for less than $3.5k - shop around. Bluntly, no Where over here in Europe can I get it? I know a few people, including me, who'd then buy them for X terminals and such. >CISC box that I know of now can be justified on price/performance >grounds when compared to (almost) any MIPS / SPARC / 88K / generic >RISC machine, unless you already have a large body of non-portable >software. But that particular arguement can also be used to justify >IBM 3090s and all manner of like overpriced beasties. 68030 boxes >essentially don't cut it. The TT was born dead, but Jack & co aren't >going to tell anybody :-) While it's not the most advanced technology, it certainly wasn't born dead. However, people are trying to beat it to death now it finally WAS born at all :-). >-- >Ross Alexander rwa@cs.athabascau.ca (403) 675 6311 ve6pdq This is below :-) (See above :-)): Todays $ exchange rate in Germany: a $ costs 1.63 DM Now the facts, cool and emotionless: you will not be able to get the Sun SLC for $3.5K in Germany. It has just been announced by Sun for a market price of 11980,-- DM (which at current exchange rates comes to $7349.69). That's the price of the basic version which according to IX (a UNIX[TM] magazine by Verlag Heinz Heise GmbH&Co. KG) comes with a 17" monochrome Monitor with integrated motherboard carrying a SPARC processor, FPU, audio-chip and 8 MB RAM. All this you know and I know. The SCSI bus and Ethernet connector are also mentioned. Anyhow, we're now at 11980,-- DM. To get a 650 MB SCSI drive system you'll have to invest another 9980,--DM ($6122.70) [that would be a CSS GIGAFILE optical disk including a removable medium]. To stay with standard technology, you get a 20MB SCSI drive for 475,--DM ($291.41). However, you probably want at least 80 MB which you have to pay 789,--DM ($484.05) for. Other prices include - Micropolis 1588-15 SCSI 760 MB 5198,--DM ($3188.96) - Micropolis 1578-15 SCSI 327 MB 3398,--DM ($2084.66) (probably not THE CHEAPEST but one of the cheaper offers). In other words, to get a SLC and a 80MB drive, you have to spend about DM 12,455.00 ($7,641.10), to get anywhere near a 650 MB drive you spend DM 15,378.00 ($9,434.36) and for the setup with 760MB drive you pay DM 17,178.00 ($10,538.65). I guess you get the picture. The $ prices are just for your interest. You can't truly compare them with US prices because of things like different VAT, customs, transport costs, different legal requirements, ... Anyhow, before I spend 12,455.00 DM, I'll probably settle for a CISC box. No matter how powerful you want to get, you spend at least 5000.00 DM ($3067.48) less even if you do buy one of these expensive CISCmachines by Commmodore, Atari, Apple (almost as expensive as your Sun), or one of a million PC clones for even less. And you do have or will get a good software base by all sorts of vendors and software houses. How is it with a Sun? So, next time you go quoting Californian prices to German readers, check where what you're reading came from, OK? OK! So long, Martin Disclaimer: SNI has nothing to do with this. They don't even know I have any opinion. -- Email: in the USA -> mboening.pad@nixdorf.com outside USA -> mboening.pad@nixdorf.de Paper Mail: Martin Boening, Nixdorf Computer AG, PSD-C63 Pontanusstr. 55, 4790 Paderborn, W.-Germany (Phone: +49 5251 146155)
hyc@math.lsa.umich.edu (Howard Chu) (09/21/90)
In article <283@aupair.cs.athabascau.ca> rwa@cs.athabascau.ca (Ross Alexander) writes: >mboen@nixpbe.UUCP (Martin Boening) writes: >>Your margin of error is pretty big: The Sparcstation SLC will cost around >>12000 DM (in words: twelve thousand DM). And its a diskless, fanless SPARC >>workstation - not much good for the home user without a server, eh. >Get your facts straight before posting. It prevents embarrassment. Take it easy, and read more carefully, that helps prevent embarrassment too. Martin's message talks about prices in Deutsche Marks. I wonder why that would be... >Look on the back of a SLC. See the SCSI port? Guess what plugs in >there! Why, SCSI peripherals - imagine that. Disks and tapes and all >kinds of clever stuff. 12000 marks for a diskless CPU is still a lot of money, regardless of the fact that you can shell out your own additional cash to get an add-on drive. >Also: SLC's can be had for less than $3.5k - shop around. Bluntly, no I bet it's harder to shop around for Sun hardware in Germany than it is in North America. Think about it sometime. Your quote of "$3.5k" is meaningless in the context of the original posting. >CISC box that I know of now can be justified on price/performance >grounds when compared to (almost) any MIPS / SPARC / 88K / generic >RISC machine, unless you already have a large body of non-portable >software. But that particular arguement can also be used to justify >IBM 3090s and all manner of like overpriced beasties. 68030 boxes >essentially don't cut it. The TT was born dead, but Jack & co aren't >going to tell anybody :-) Yep, once again, too little too late. But that's OK, no one else will have 68040 systems available till next year anyway. If the other hardware is fast enough, it may be cute to drop an 040 into a TT. Meanwhile... the '040 specs put it well ahead of the current generation of RISC chips, (barring, maybe, the IBM RIOS system...) so I don't think you can discount CISC so easily. Not at this time, at least. And when you can take advantage of direct binary compatibility, that's always the easiest route, eh? Then issues of porting to new hardware don't have to raise their ugly heads... (Note that this little nicety doesn't really apply to IBM mainframes. With their site-customizable microcode, you can't guarantee binary compatibility from one identical model CPU to the next, let alone across the product line. But we already knew IBM mainframes were anachronisms, so no biggie...) -- -- Howard Chu @ University of Michigan one million data bits stored on a chip, one million bits per chip if one of those data bits happens to flip, one million data bits stored on the chip...
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (09/21/90)
[all bitching about difference in German and US pricing deleted]
Listen, it is obvious that for whatever reason the computer companies
have decided (or were forced due to regulations) to price their systems
differently in Europe and the US. Until that changes, Atari will have
a nice thriving market in the European marketplace. Great, that is
fine. However, here in the US the manufacturers are more competetive in
price and those companies that boast about "power without the price"
but who do not deliver will lose (or never find) any market share.
Maybe someday, the United States of Europe will adopt more fair trade
practices and dispense with all the VAT and regulatory bullsh*t so
that you fellows can buy a computer a the same reasonable cost that
we can.
Cheers,
Chris
------------------------------+---------------------------
Chris Mauritz |D{r det finns en |l, finns
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |det en plan!
(c)All rights reserved. |
Send flames to /dev/null |
------------------------------+---------------------------stephen@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Steve Whitney) (09/22/90)
In article <1990Sep21.165705.20285@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes:
`Sender: news@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (The Daily News)
`Reply-To: cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz)
`Organization: Columbia University
`Lines: 24
`
`[all bitching about difference in German and US pricing deleted]
`
`Listen, it is obvious that for whatever reason the computer companies
`have decided (or were forced due to regulations) to price their systems
`differently in Europe and the US. Until that changes, Atari will have
`a nice thriving market in the European marketplace. Great, that is
`fine.
[stuff about unfair trade deleted]
The _point_, Chris, is that the TT prices we have are given in DM.
_You_ insist on comapring the TT's German price to the Sun's U.S.
price. We don't yet know what the TT's US price will be. Until then,
There's no point in complaining about how the TT's German price doesn't
stack up to a Sun's U.S. price. As you yourself pointed out, U.S.
machines cost more in Germany.
`Cheers,
`
`Chris
--
Steve Whitney "It's never _really_ the last minute" (())_-_(())
UCLA Comp. Sci. Grad. Student | (* *) |
Internet: stephen@cs.ucla.edu UCLA Bruin--> { \_@_/ }
GEnie: S.WHITNEY `-----' poole@chx400.switch.ch (Simon Poole) (10/01/90)
In article <mboen.653863080@peun33> mboen@nixdorf.de (Martin Boening) writes: ...... >I'm quite aware that you connect to server machines with Ethernet and not >with a 300 Bd dial-up modem, you know. However, (see below). > >>Also: SLC's can be had for less than $3.5k - shop around. Bluntly, no > >Where over here in Europe can I get it? I know a few people, including me, >who'd then buy them for X terminals and such. Actually, whoever wrote the original article wasn't that far off, with academic rebate you can get a SLC for about ~$4000 in Switzerland and an IPC with 200MB disk for about ~$9000. As far as I know there is no similar rebate for Atari's here. (Not that I think it's a fair comparison anyway, you get a lot more for your money when you go out and buy a Sun.) Anyway the main problem with the TT (except Atari per se) is price: it's nearly twice as expensive as what I payed a long time ago (can it be five years? how time flys) for my ST520. If you ask around, most people wont go out and buy a computer for personal use that is way over SFr. 3000.-/$2300. So it really only appeals to freaks (considering the age group a lot of european Atari hackers are in, I have a lot of problems imagining them forking out this kind of money), businesses and academic institutions. While I can't speak for the couple of businesses that use Atari's in Switzerland, I do know that they don't have any chance of selling any substantial ammounts into the academic market (at least not at the current price). [BTW does anbody know why Atari actually decided to release the TT? Sinking ST sales?] -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Simon Poole poole@verw.switch.ch / poole@chx400.switch.ch / mcsun!chx400!poole ------------------------------------------------------------------------
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (10/01/90)
In article <1990Sep30.175318.17716@chx400.switch.ch> poole@chx400.switch.ch (Simon Poole) writes: >In article <mboen.653863080@peun33> mboen@nixdorf.de (Martin Boening) writes: >...... >>>Also: SLC's can be had for less than $3.5k - shop around. Bluntly, no Actually, about a week ago I asked a friend at MIT to check the price for me (Columbia has no program for students to buy Suns) and he told me the student rate was ~$3250. Add in about $1K for a 300meg SCSI hard disk and VIOLA, a nice little "roll your own" unix system with an industry standard OS (SunOS 4.1). > >Actually, whoever wrote the original article wasn't that far off, with >academic rebate you can get a SLC for about ~$4000 in Switzerland and >an IPC with 200MB disk for about ~$9000. As far as I know there is no >similar rebate for Atari's here. (Not that I think it's a fair >comparison anyway, you get a lot more for your money when you go out >and buy a Sun.) I must agree. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would buy any Atari product over a comparable (in this case better) Sun product given reasonably close prices (within $1-2K). > >Anyway the main problem with the TT (except Atari per se) is price: >it's nearly twice as expensive as what I payed a long time ago (can >it be five years? how time flys) for my ST520. If you ask around, most Well, I'm not sure how fair it is to compare prices of a 5 year old 68000 system and a new 68030 system. That might be a bit of a stretch. >age group a lot of european Atari hackers are in, I have a lot of problems >imagining them forking out this kind of money), businesses and academic >institutions. While I can't speak for the couple of businesses that use >Atari's in Switzerland, I do know that they don't have any chance of >selling any substantial ammounts into the academic market (at least not >at the current price). Again, I think you are right. I personally don't see a market for this machine (unless it was pretty cheap) anywhere (US or Europe). Anyone who wants a decent unix environment is going to buy from more respected manufacturers at prices not much above Atari's. As far as it being marketed as a "turboST", that would work just fine given appropriate pricing. >[BTW does anbody know why Atari actually decided to release the TT? >Sinking ST sales?] I would be curious to know why also. Maybe they thought that they would have had more market penetration by now? The TT would make a lot more sense if Atari had another million or so STs out there. >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Simon Poole > poole@verw.switch.ch / poole@chx400.switch.ch / mcsun!chx400!poole >------------------------------------------------------------------------ Cheers, Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |D{r det finns en |l, finns cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |det en plan! (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null | ------------------------------+---------------------------
gl8f@astsun9.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (10/02/90)
In article <1990Oct1.142505.30917@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >>>>Also: SLC's can be had for less than $3.5k - shop around. Bluntly, no > >Actually, about a week ago I asked a friend at MIT to check the price >for me etc. etc. Listen, it does no good to compare TT prices in Germany to SLC prices in the US. We don't know what the TT price in the US is. Perhaps you should see the article from Jos today if you'd like a direct comparison of the TT and other systems. Feel free to post when you have hard facts. -- "Restraint, hell. I'm just too fucking busy." -- Bill Wisner
poole@chx400.switch.ch (Simon Poole) (10/02/90)
In article <1990Oct1.142505.30917@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >In article <1990Sep30.175318.17716@chx400.switch.ch> poole@chx400.switch.ch (Simon Poole) writes: ... >> >>Anyway the main problem with the TT (except Atari per se) is price: >>it's nearly twice as expensive as what I payed a long time ago (can >>it be five years? how time flys) for my ST520. If you ask around, most > >Well, I'm not sure how fair it is to compare prices of a 5 year old >68000 system and a new 68030 system. That might be a bit of a stretch. > At the time I bought my ST, you could just barely get a basic 286 system without hard disk for the amount of money the ST costed, now I could get a reasonable 386 system for the same (I doubt if any x86 system is reasonable anyway :-)). Why shouldn't Atari customers expect a similar advance in bang for the buck? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Simon Poole poole@verw.switch.ch / poole@chx400.switch.ch / mcsun!chx400!poole ------------------------------------------------------------------------
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (10/03/90)
In article <1990Oct1.215142.10460@chx400.switch.ch> poole@chx400.switch.ch (Simon Poole) writes: >In article <1990Oct1.142505.30917@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >>In article <1990Sep30.175318.17716@chx400.switch.ch> poole@chx400.switch.ch (Simon Poole) writes: >... >>> >>>Anyway the main problem with the TT (except Atari per se) is price: >>>it's nearly twice as expensive as what I payed a long time ago (can >>>it be five years? how time flys) for my ST520. If you ask around, most >> >>Well, I'm not sure how fair it is to compare prices of a 5 year old >>68000 system and a new 68030 system. That might be a bit of a stretch. >> > >At the time I bought my ST, you could just barely get a basic 286 system >without hard disk for the amount of money the ST costed, now I could >get a reasonable 386 system for the same (I doubt if any x86 system is >reasonable anyway :-)). Why shouldn't Atari customers expect a similar >advance in bang for the buck? Well, when you put it that way, perhaps you have a point. I never thought I'd see that day when Simon Poole (the God of UniTerm) would become an ST skeptic. :-) BTW, I'd appreciate if you'd email me the cost of a basic 386 system in Zurich. When I was in Sion, I saw pretty average 386's for about CHf3000. >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Simon Poole > poole@verw.switch.ch / poole@chx400.switch.ch / mcsun!chx400!poole >------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |D{r det finns en |l, finns cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |det en plan! (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null | ------------------------------+---------------------------