oleg@crash.cts.com (Oleg Rovner) (09/24/90)
Here's the scoop. I need advice on whether to buy a 1040STe or an
Amiga 500. I have owned Amigas for 5 years, and so I am familiar with
their features. I don't know diddly about the new STe other than 4096
colors, stereo, and 4Mbytes board by using different SIMMs.
The questions that I have are as follow|s:
1. Is there software to take advantage of the new modes
2. What sort of good (ie real time, 640x400x4)4 or 5 or 6)
animation/painting software is there for the STe
3. If I want to run DTP stuff, do I need the monochrome monito{ ?
BTW does STe have high res color, or is it the same as the ST,
640x200is
the highest color resolution? Does the STe do full real overscan?
I am not trying to start a flame war, and flames will not really help,
as I need to make the decision by next week at the latest, so please
help out.
OR
contents copyright (c) 1990 Oleg Rovner and may not be quoted and/or
distributed without permission except by/on USENET and /dev/null
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"Tommy Lasorda may not be a typical SlimFast user" SlimFast disclaimer
ekrimen@csuchico.edu (Ed Krimen) (09/24/90)
- 1. Is there software to take advantage of the new modes
A paint program named Canvas is supposed to be able to use the 4096
colors. The utilities for JRI's 4096-color board work on the STe,
but they aren't that good and only convert 32 color IFF pics to 32
shade grayscale pics. (I think that's right, but not sure.)
As for sound, there are only PD stuff available that use the stereo
sound. There are some great demos and a couple utilities, but that's
about it. I've heard that MicroDeal, makers of ST Replay, have a
stereo version in the works.
- 2. What sort of good (ie real time, 640x400x4)4 or 5 or 6)
- animation/painting software is there for the STe
There's no such thing as 640x400x4 on any of the ST models. It's
monochrome. There's a company called Lexicor, which is some of the
authors that wrote the Cyber series for Antic, and they are coming
out with some great animation and drawing stuff.
- 3. If I want to run DTP stuff, do I need the monochrome monito{ ?
Calamus requires a monochome monitor. Pagestream does not.
- BTW does STe have high res color, or is it the same as the ST,
- 640x200is the highest color resolution?
Yes. It's the same as the other ST's, only 4096 colors to choose
from instead of 512.
- Does the STe do full real overscan?
No, don't think so.jcksnsr@nmt.edu (Jeffrey C. King) (09/25/90)
In article <1990Sep24.054555.624@ecst.csuchico.edu> ekrimen@cscihp.UUCP (Ed Krimen) writes: > >As for sound, there are only PD stuff available that use the stereo >sound. There are some great demos and a couple utilities, but that's >about it. I've heard that MicroDeal, makers of ST Replay, have a >stereo version in the works. > Actually, if I remember right, the important thing about the STe is that it is using 8-bit PCM stereo. If this is true then the STe may well have the best sound of any machine around. (PCM is one on the D to A techiniques used by CD players (though CD's are more often 16 bit) ALso I think the STe is supposed to be tri-aural as opposed to just simply stereo (I know the Tweety board is.) >- 2. What sort of good (ie real time, 640x400x4)4 or 5 or 6) >- animation/painting software is there for the STe > >There's no such thing as 640x400x4 on any of the ST models. It's >monochrome. There's a company called Lexicor, which is some of the >authors that wrote the Cyber series for Antic, and they are coming >out with some great animation and drawing stuff. > Thats wrong! The STe incorporates an extra bit plane in several new graphics modes. The extra bit plane is what allows 32 colors without resorting to a seperate color map (ALA Spectrum, GIF's and I belive VGA). As I recall, the graphics modes on the STe are 320x200x16, 640x200x4, 640x400x1 (to remain compatible with the ST) as well as 320x200x32, 640x200x16 and 640x400x4 plus I believe there is also a new Hi-Rez mode somethink like 1280x800x1 (One spec I saw listed in Current Notes stated that the STe and TT were to have remarkably similar graphics..) >- 3. If I want to run DTP stuff, do I need the monochrome monito{ ? > >Calamus requires a monochome monitor. Pagestream does not. > >- BTW does STe have high res color, or is it the same as the ST, >- 640x200is the highest color resolution? > >Yes. It's the same as the other ST's, only 4096 colors to choose >from instead of 512. > No - I already talked about this... (Now I'm just waiting for some obvious STe developements (SPectrum 512 in 640x200 mode, an Amiga Emulator, etc, before I buy mine..) Plus the price is VERY competitive (1 Meg STe with internal 720K drive for less than $600 ($558 I believe)) JEff
hardware@rose.uwaterloo.ca (09/25/90)
In article <4619@crash.cts.com> oleg@crash.cts.com (Oleg Rovner) writes: >Here's the scoop. I need advice on whether to buy a 1040STe or an >Amiga 500. I have owned Amigas for 5 years, and so I am familiar with >their features. I don't know diddly about the new STe other than 4096 >colors, stereo, and 4Mbytes board by using different SIMMs. > >The questions that I have are as follow|s: > >1. Is there software to take advantage of the new modes Yes there are several new programs that use the 4096 colour palette mode. However screen resolution modes havnt changed so there are few problems with compatability except that the existing Tos is 1.6 and the newer revised STE's are suppose to have a newer TOS with fancier Deskstop features. You wont regret buying an STE for the simple fact their are hundreds more ST BBS's than Amiga ones because there is little or no Amiga BBS software avaiable except for the IBM Bridgeboard junk that doest count. > >2. What sort of good (ie real time, 640x400x4)4 or 5 or 6) >animation/painting software is there for the STe I know of several packages for animation painting for example Cyber Studio,Aegis Animator and now Phase 4! Phase 4 being the most recent and versatile of them all. It will be also porte to the TT as well. There are many other painting programs like Paint Master, Canvas Degas Elite, Stos Paint, Spectrum 512 etc. Spectrum being one that supports brilliant colour display using pixel alliasing. >3. If I want to run DTP stuff, do I need the monochrome monito{ ? > >BTW does STe have high res color, or is it the same as the ST, >640x200is >the highest color resolution? Does the STe do full real overscan? No you dont require a monchrome mointor for many packages but some are best used in Monochrome mode. Timeworks Deskstop Publishing that I run is better used in Medium resolution on an RGB Multisync monitor. (Which for ST bashers handles ALL RESOLUTION MODES!, Including the new TT resoluton modes.) Analog Multisync RGB Monitors can be bought cheaply via JDR Microdevices or local IBM clone shop. You can buy used monochrome monitors for a cheap as 80 bucks used so its not a problem getting one later on. . ************************************************************************* Hardware Dave at your Service > Is this better Brian? Good movie to watch "Spymaster" with James Connery. ************************************************************************* > > >
jgp@fctunl.rccn.pt (Jose Goncalo Pedro) (09/25/90)
Where did you heard of such a thing? What you say about the STe's sound is true, but what you say about the video is not. The improvements in the video department are: 4096 color palette and hardware scroll, nothing more. -jp -- --- Jose Goncalo Pedro BITNET/Internet: jgp@fctunl.rccn.pt +---------------------------------+ UUCP: jgp@unl.uucp | Departamento de Informatica +----------------------------------+ | Universidade Nova de Lisboa 2825 Monte Caparica, PORTUGAL | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
aimd@castle.ed.ac.uk (M Davidson) (09/26/90)
In article <1990Sep25.021056.1425@nmt.edu> jcksnsr@nmt.edu (Jeffrey C. King) writes: > Thats wrong! The STe incorporates an extra bit plane in several new graphics >modes. The extra bit plane is what allows 32 colors without resorting to a >seperate color map (ALA Spectrum, GIF's and I belive VGA). As I recall, the >graphics modes on the STe are 320x200x16, 640x200x4, 640x400x1 (to remain >compatible with the ST) as well as 320x200x32, 640x200x16 and 640x400x4 plus > I believe there is also a new Hi-Rez mode somethink like 1280x800x1 > (One spec I saw listed in Current Notes stated that the STe and TT were to >have remarkably similar graphics..) This is the TT you're talking about - the STe only has an extra bit colour resolution (ie. a choice of 16 rather than 8 R, G and B values). The actual *screen* resolution is the same.... (Unless you know something I don't.....!) -Mark.
ekrimen@csuchico.edu (Ed Krimen) (09/26/90)
jcksnsr@nmt.edu (Jeffrey C. King) writes:
- Actually, if I remember right, the important thing about the STe is
- that it is using 8-bit PCM stereo. If this is true then the STe may
- well have the best sound of any machine around. (PCM is one on the
- D to A techiniques used by CD players (though CD's are more often 16
- bit) ALso I think the STe is supposed to be tri-aural as opposed to
- just simply stereo (I know the Tweety board is.)
The STe stills has the same sound chip as the older STs to stay
compatible as well as the new chip for the PCM sound. The Tweety
Board isn't necessarily stereo; it just separates the three ST voices
into different channels. Some of the digitized sound players for the
STe allow you to incorporate the old sound chip (forget its name) as
well as the new one.
(RE: Graphics)
- Thats wrong!
Ooops! :^)
- The STe incorporates an extra bit plane in several new graphics
- modes. The extra bit plane is what allows 32 colors without
- resorting to a seperate color map (ALA Spectrum, GIF's and I belive
- VGA). As I recall, the graphics modes on the STe are 320x200x16,
- 640x200x4, 640x400x1 (to remain compatible with the ST) as well as
- 320x200x32, 640x200x16 and 640x400x4 plus I believe there is also a
- new Hi-Rez mode somethink like 1280x800x1 (One spec I saw listed in
- Current Notes stated that the STe and TT were to have remarkably
- similar graphics..)
Hmm, this is the first I'm hearing about the new modes for the STe,
and, here, I have one! I know that the TT had these modes, but
didn't know that the STe had them. I thought it was kinda weird that
the JRI 4096 color utilities (which work on the STe) included a
program to convert 32-color IFF pics to 32 gray-scale NEO pics. Is
that a result of the 320x200x32 mode?
Now all we need is software to use these modes!carlos@stretch.cs.mun.ca (Carlos Borges) (09/26/90)
In article <1990Sep25.021056.1425@nmt.edu> jcksnsr@nmt.edu (Jeffrey C. King) writes: >In article <1990Sep24.054555.624@ecst.csuchico.edu> ekrimen@cscihp.UUCP (Ed Krimen) writes: >>There's no such thing as 640x400x4 on any of the ST models. It's >>monochrome. There's a company called Lexicor, which is some of the >>authors that wrote the Cyber series for Antic, and they are coming >>out with some great animation and drawing stuff. >> > Thats wrong! The STe incorporates an extra bit plane in several new graphics >modes. The extra bit plane is what allows 32 colors without resorting to a >seperate color map (ALA Spectrum, GIF's and I belive VGA). As I recall, the >graphics modes on the STe are 320x200x16, 640x200x4, 640x400x1 (to remain >compatible with the ST) as well as 320x200x32, 640x200x16 and 640x400x4 plus > I believe there is also a new Hi-Rez mode somethink like 1280x800x1 > (One spec I saw listed in Current Notes stated that the STe and TT were to >have remarkably similar graphics..) > Are you serious about these "extra" resolutions? I've had my STe for a few months now, and I didn't know about them. From GEM, there are still only LOW, MED, & HIGH resolutions listed in the preferences. If the machine is indeed capable of these resolutions, how do I access them? >>- BTW does STe have high res color, or is it the same as the ST, >>- 640x200is the highest color resolution? >> >>Yes. It's the same as the other ST's, only 4096 colors to choose >>from instead of 512. >> > > No - I already talked about this... > > > (Now I'm just waiting for some obvious STe developements (SPectrum 512 in >640x200 mode, an Amiga Emulator, etc, before I buy mine..) I really didn't know these extra modes were available... Are they? -- C. Miguel Borges \ / carlos@stretch.cs.mun.ca P.O. Box 1594 Station "C" -==(*O*)==- (709) 739-0419 St. John's Nfld MiG CANADA A1C 5P3
Doug_B_Erdely@cup.portal.com (09/26/90)
This is in reply to 'Hardware Joe's' comment that there is no Amiga BBS software... BUZZZZZ WRONG ANSWER!! There are around 7 commercial packages and almost an equal number of PD packages. I have yet to see an Amiga user running a BBS on a bridge board. Of course you could do it though. As for the number of Amiga supporting BBS... my experiance has been that there are far more supporting the Amiga. In my area there is *1* BBS for the ST... OPPS make that *2* (We have an Atari ST area on our Amiga BBS). While there are *5* Amiga BBS's in the area. In fact going by an old edition of 'The Final List' which is an Amiga BBS Directory, there are 3,427 Amiga BBS's World wide. This is NOT a flame, I just wanted to clear this up.. THANKS! - Doug - Doug_B_Erdely@Cup.Portal.Com
jcksnsr@nmt.edu (Jeffrey C. King) (09/26/90)
In response to question about the STe... the data I was refering to was
from an issue of Current Notes about three months old.. in an Article
describing an Autralian atari fair there was a sidebar containing info on the
STE (can't check as I and the magazine are now 1900+ miles apart) ..
I remember that at that time the STe was supposed to incorporate some
major graphics changes (ie.. an extra bit plane.) ... hopefully it does,
as that would make the machine equal to the Amiga graphics wise.. otherwise it
is rather a pointless and late upgrade.. (Sorry, but its time for the TT or
even better the ATW... (but following Dave Small's advice.. with which I agree,
no Atari bashing...)
I know some actual atari reps read this conf. perhaps they can tell us
the true story...
JEffjcksnsr@nmt.edu (Jeffrey C. King) (09/26/90)
In article <1990Sep25.182510.6246@ecst.csuchico.edu> ekrimen@cscihp.UUCP (Ed Krimen) writes: >- Current Notes stated that the STe and TT were to have remarkably >- similar graphics..) > >Hmm, this is the first I'm hearing about the new modes for the STe, >and, here, I have one! I know that the TT had these modes, but >didn't know that the STe had them. I thought it was kinda weird that >the JRI 4096 color utilities (which work on the STe) included a >program to convert 32-color IFF pics to 32 gray-scale NEO pics. Is >that a result of the 320x200x32 mode? > >Now all we need is software to use these modes! In order to use more than 16 colors without a color map and funny routines (Spectrum!) you have to have more than 3 bit planes.. (2^3)= 16 thus only sixteen colors... but with four bit planes (2^4) one would have 32 colors. One side effect would be larger files... As simple way to check the converted files is to check files size if they are about 32K then they probably only have 16 colors (more obtained by clever dithering).. but if they are noticably larger they probably include more bit planes... (This is a side effect of the .NEO format.. it is essentially pallete data followed by a straight screen dump.... obviously this wouldn't work to tell with a compressed file (TNY or PC?). JEff
ekrimen@csuchico.edu (Ed Krimen) (09/26/90)
jcksnsr@nmt.edu (Jeffrey C. King) writes:
- In order to use more than 16 colors without a color map and funny
- routines (Spectrum!) you have to have more than 3 bit planes..
- (2^3)= 16 thus only sixteen colors... but with four bit planes (2^4)
- one would have 32 colors. One side effect would be larger files...
- As simple way to check the converted files is to check files size if
- they are about 32K then they probably only have 16 colors (more
- obtained by clever dithering).. but if they are noticably larger
- they probably include more bit planes... (This is a side effect of
- the .NEO format.. it is essentially pallete data followed by a
- straight screen dump.... obviously this wouldn't work to tell with
- a compressed file (TNY or PC?).
The "4096-color-compatible" NEO pics I have are 32768 bytes long.
They have supposedly 32 colors.heavy@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Scott Hall) (09/26/90)
In article <1990Sep26.050938.3441@nmt.edu> jcksnsr@nmt.edu (Jeffrey C. King) writes: > > In order to use more than 16 colors without a color map and funny routines > (Spectrum!) you have to have more than 3 bit planes.. (2^3)= 16 thus only > > JEff > ....2^3 = 16 ??? I thought 8
jcksnsr@nmt.edu (Jeffrey C. King) (09/27/90)
In article <1990Sep26.073626.9347@ecst.csuchico.edu> ekrimen@cscihp.UUCP (Ed Krimen) writes: > >The "4096-color-compatible" NEO pics I have are 32768 bytes long. >They have supposedly 32 colors. Actually... I just punched some numbers into my calculator... (320*200*3)= 192000/8 = 24000 = 24K Which is how long a 320x200x3bit plane screen dump should be... 32K is how long a four bit plane dump should be... I know for a fact that atari uses 32K for its screen dump... I wonder what that means ... did atari intend to include 4 bit planes (like the amiga) on the original ST and then kludge it? (or am I missing something big..) I guess this means that you can't tell by file size...though it also means that the Ste might still have only three modes... but be able to display more colors in each mode.. (If one bit plane is unused then using it would allow compatibility between STe and Non-Ste modes..) ^in the ST. Hm... I wish I had an Ste... then I could test this... though it seems kind of stupid for atari to have included and extra bit for the color pallette but not for the display.. waste of time if you ask me...) If someone out there is a programmer .. write a short program in low rez to try and put 32 colors on screen... (Though this will only tell if it is possible... not neccessarily if it is impossible..) Just a thought.. high rez in color would probably take a special monitor.. since the SM124 doesn't have any colored phosphor... JEff (Oh 2^3 = 8... 8+4+2+1 = 15 0-15 equals sixteen colors...)
cpca@iceman.jcu.oz (C Adams) (10/01/90)
> (Now I'm just waiting for some obvious STe developements (SPectrum 512 in > 640x200 mode, an Amiga Emulator, etc, before I buy mine..) ^^^^^^^^^^^^ I don't want to flame here, but there are a few MAJOR problems with this. 1) You cannot emulate the Amiga video modes in software 2) You cannot stop direct access to amiga chips (done EVERYWHERE in the operating system and software) without special hardware to map access to software emulation which would be very difficult anyway. 3) DMA and the sound would be hard (impossible?) to trap in software > JEff ******************************************************************** Colin Adams Life's funny but I don't laugh ********************************************************************
rrd@hpfinote.HP.COM (Ray Depew x2419) (10/04/90)
>> (Now I'm just waiting for some obvious STe developements (SPectrum 512 in >> 640x200 mode, an Amiga Emulator, etc, before I buy mine..) ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > I don't want to flame here, but there are a few MAJOR problems with > this. > 1, 2, 3) You cannot ... > Colin Adams Life's funny but I don't laugh You think these people would have learned by now; Don't EVER tell an ST hacker what they CAN and CANNOT do. (Ask Dave Small about Spectre GCR, or what's-his- name about Spectrum 512. More examples furnished on request.) ---------- Regards Ray rrd@hpfitst1.hp.com