crouland@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Enemy Skater) (10/09/90)
discounting program that will entice more students into dropping $4000 into an atari as opposed to picking up a NeXT 68040 for a mere $3200 after discount? Representatives from Atari at the WAACE Atarifest skirted the topic specifically however, I would like to get the real scoop from someone competent. Has anyone heard about this or seen anything PRINTED <not vaporware>?? With Commodore, Apple and NeXT offering %40 discounts to students an institutions, how do they expect anyone to be interested into jumping into our world of TOS?? Chris R. crouland@gmuvax2.gmu.edu
iho@cac.washington.edu (Il Oh) (10/11/90)
In article <2583@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> crouland@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Enemy Skater) writes: >discounting program that will entice more students into dropping $4000 into >an atari as opposed to picking up a NeXT 68040 for a mere $3200 after discount? The NeXT configuration you mention (I assume it's the "pizza" box) comes with a limited software bundle. Among the things left out are the LISP and C languages. It also includes only the 160 MB hard disk, of which only 30 MB is available after the OS is loaded on it. In addition, this box is not upgradable, other than through the ports. You can't even upgrade it to color. il -- a clever .sig file
galanter@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Philip Galanter) (10/11/90)
In article <8938@milton.u.washington.edu> iho@akbar.UUCP (Il Oh) writes: >In article <2583@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> crouland@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Enemy Skater) writes: >>discounting program that will entice more students into dropping $4000 into >>an atari as opposed to picking up a NeXT 68040 for a mere $3200 after discount? > >The NeXT configuration you mention (I assume it's the "pizza" box) comes with >a limited software bundle. Among the things left out are the LISP and C >languages. It also includes only the 160 MB hard disk, of which only >30 MB is available after the OS is loaded on it. In addition, this box >is not upgradable, other than through the ports. You can't even upgrade >it to color. The NextStation at any price includes a license for _all_ NeXT bundled software. The small disk version has 30+ MB _after_ various applications are already on the disk, such as WriteNow. The NextStation _is_ upgradable in a couple of important ways...disk space and memory. Simms can be added later, and external SCSI drives can be used. With the added disk space University users can obtain, usually at their campus computer store or through the academic computing organization, copies of any NeXT software they want for use on their external drive. So for the frugal, the best bang for the buck is to buy a minimal NextStation, and then add 3rd party memory and disk drives, and then add the entire base of NeXT software. Phil ============================================================================== Academic Computing & Network Services ~ AppleLink: A42 ~ ~ 627 Dartmouth Place ~ ~Advanced Technology Group Manager ~ galanter@nwu.edu ~ ~ Evanston, IL 60208 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~Northwestern University ~ ~CompuServe: 76474,154 ~ fax: 708-491-4548 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Philip Galanter~ ~ ~ NeXT>gambuh.acns.nwu.edu ~ ph: 708-491-4050 ==============================================================================
kawakami@tornado.Berkeley.EDU (John Kawakami) (10/11/90)
In article <8938@milton.u.washington.edu> iho@akbar.UUCP (Il Oh) writes: >The NeXT configuration you mention (I assume it's the "pizza" box) comes with >a limited software bundle. Among the things left out are the LISP and C >languages. It also includes only the 160 MB hard disk, of which only >30 MB is available after the OS is loaded on it. In addition, this box >is not upgradable, other than through the ports. You can't even upgrade >it to color. > It costs relatively little considering that Mathematica($800) and a spread- sheet and a word processor are included. There IS a C included, Objective C, and C++ (probably G++). TeX too. You can probably add a SCSI disk for relatively little money. On the minus side, it has only 8MB ram. Most of the old bundled stuff (Frame Maker, Shakespeare, the optical drive) is missing. I think it's a good deal because it kicks serious ass over similarly priced and loaded PCs and Macs. And Ataris and Commodores. John Kawakami kawakami@ocf.berkeley.edu ucbvax!ocf.berkeley.edu!kawakami Amateur crank! My Atari Macks!
iho@cac.washington.edu (Il Oh) (10/11/90)
In article <316@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> galanter@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Philip Galanter) writes: > >The NextStation at any price includes a license for _all_ NeXT bundled >software. The small disk version has 30+ MB _after_ various applications >are already on the disk, such as WriteNow. The NextStation _is_ upgradable I agree that the configuration comes with some useful software, but you still don't get the full software bundle. You have to get the software copied yourself, even if you do get the license. >So for the frugal, the best bang for the buck is to buy a minimal >NextStation, and then add 3rd party memory and disk drives, and then add >the entire base of NeXT software. Third party memory might be fairly easy, but I've yet to hear from someone who has successfully attached a third party hard disk to a NeXT. There are some horror stories floating around about people who tried to attach third party hard disks to cubes il -- a clever .sig file
bluneski@pogo.WV.TEK.COM (Bob Luneski) (10/11/90)
In article <8938@milton.u.washington.edu> iho@akbar.UUCP (Il Oh) writes: >In article <2583@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> crouland@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Enemy Skater) writes: >>discounting program that will entice more students into dropping $4000 into >>an atari as opposed to picking up a NeXT 68040 for a mere $3200 after discount? > >The NeXT configuration you mention (I assume it's the "pizza" box) comes with >a limited software bundle. Among the things left out are the LISP and C >languages. Wrongo! I don't know about LISP but All NeXT machines are shipped with C standard(with Objective C extensions and a very nice Interface Builder (resource construction set)) As for your claim of a limited software bundle, in addition to real UNIX and a host of utilities you get a professional word processor(WriteNow), the complete digital Webster Dictionary, NeXTmail mail system, Lotus IMPROV spreadsheet, and if you buy through the educational program you get Mathematica! Now compare that to what you get with a TOS machine: Atari Basic - BFD. The hardware superiority of the NeXT machine is beyond debate. ____________________________________________________________________________ Bob Luneski bluneski@pogo.WV.TEK.COM Genie: B.LUNESKI1 The opinions expressed herein are my own and in no way reflect the opinions of Tektronix, Inc.
manes@vger.nsu.edu (10/11/90)
In article <1990Oct11.015737.3437@agate.berkeley.edu>, kawakami@tornado.Berkeley.EDU (John Kawakami) writes: > In article <8938@milton.u.washington.edu> iho@akbar.UUCP (Il Oh) writes: > > [interesting info about NeXT packaging of software deleted] > > I think it's a good deal because it kicks serious ass over similarly priced > and loaded PCs and Macs. And Ataris and Commodores. In what way does the NeXT machien that you are describing kick ass seriously out of the Atari and the Amiga? Or is this just hopeful speculation? > > > John Kawakami kawakami@ocf.berkeley.edu > ucbvax!ocf.berkeley.edu!kawakami > Amateur crank! My Atari Macks! -mark= Mr. AmigaVision manes@vger.nsu.edu
iho@cac.washington.edu (Il Oh) (10/12/90)
In article <49.271466c4@vger.nsu.edu> manes@vger.nsu.edu writes: >In article <1990Oct11.015737.3437@agate.berkeley.edu>, kawakami@tornado.Berkeley.EDU (John Kawakami) writes: >> [a whole bunch of stuff deleted] >In what way does the NeXT machien that you are describing kick ass seriously >out of the Atari and the Amiga? Or is this just hopeful speculation? > The 68040 (when it's out) is very nice. Running at 25 MHz (standard NeXT speed), it'll be 2-3 times as fast as (I hate it when people say X times faster than) a 68030 running at 32 MHz with a 68882. Then there's that Motorola DSP chip that everyone's been drooling over for a while now. il -- a clever .sig file
dejesus@rex.cs.tulane.edu (Francisco Xavier Dejesus) (10/12/90)
In article <8999@milton.u.washington.edu> iho@akbar.UUCP (Il Oh) writes: > >Third party memory might be fairly easy, but I've yet to hear from someone >who has successfully attached a third party hard disk to a NeXT. There >are some horror stories floating around about people who tried to attach >third party hard disks to cubes First of all: that was with the _CUBE_ configuration. Second: doesn't that remark sound at all familiar? Think back 4-5 years ago: "The Atari ST is just not expandable... you can't even plug in a 3rd party hard disk!". You gotta give it a chance. Steve Jobs is well known for making big comebacks... made the Apple III, flopped, then success with the IIe. The same story with the Lisa, the Mac's ill-fated predecessor. Now it is the NeXT, the original cube was considered a nice idea but not all that well implemented... too ambitious for the market, not to mention too expensive (just like the Lisa!). Now he's coming back with a couple of improved designs, and I for one will keep an open eye on the new NeXT systems... -- ___ / _______________________________ - Francisco X DeJesus |- / \/ \\ ' / /\ dejesus@comus.cs.tulane.edu \\__________________________ / ak662@cleveland.freenet.edu ////////////////////////////
tinyguy@quiche.cs.mcgill.ca (Yeo-Hoon BAE) (10/12/90)
In article <8938@milton.u.washington.edu> iho@akbar.UUCP (Il Oh) writes: >In article <2583@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> crouland@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Enemy Skater) writes: >a limited software bundle. Among the things left out are the LISP and C >languages. It also includes only the 160 MB hard disk, of which only >30 MB is available after the OS is loaded on it. In addition, this box >is not upgradable, other than through the ports. You can't even upgrade >it to color. > Still, it's a very good value for money. Remember, it comes with 040, which is suppose to be quite a bit faster than the previous 030 based 'cubes'. In any case, I think most of these machines will be bought by the schools who will certainly connect them to their network, so small free HD space is not a problem... -TG
kawakami@earthquake.Berkeley.EDU (John Kawakami) (10/13/90)
In article <49.271466c4@vger.nsu.edu> manes@vger.nsu.edu writes: >> I think it's a good deal because it kicks serious ass over similarly priced >> and loaded PCs and Macs. And Ataris and Commodores. > >In what way does the NeXT machien that you are describing kick ass seriously >out of the Atari and the Amiga? Or is this just hopeful speculation? Software: bundled, pretty advanced, Mach, display PostScript. Processors: '40 and the DSP Screen: 17", only black and white, but you don't pay an extra $1000-$2000 Ethernet: good if you can use it... but it's included In addition, the purchase price apparantly includes a license for all the uncopied software as well. So if you need DTP, go buy the extra disk space you will need, and get FrameMaker copied for you. Granted, the other machines have more software, but unless you are a devotee of some particular software packages, the NeXT for (what is it?) $3600 is a "best buy." In addition, this deal is aimed at the university market, and I suspect that most computers sold are for two uses: running specific programs like various Mac word processors or graphics, and for programming and networking. If you are in the latter category and are not tied to some particular software package not included in the bundle, then the NeXT looks like a real deal. Now to wait for the SPARCstation educational discounts :-) BTW, since this is an atari group: why does atari have so many versions of the same machine: the STes, the Megas, the Stacy. Note, there are many macs as well: Plus, SE, SE/30, IIxx. but the capabilities of the different machines are somewhat varied. The STs are all basically the same machines with the same clock speed and processor; they differ only in memory. Shouldn't Atari just make the Mega box and have SIMM sockets. OOPS forgot about Stacy. They should keep Stacy. John Kawakami kawakami@ocf.berkeley.edu ucbvax!ocf.berkeley.edu!kawakami Amateur crank! My Atari Macks!
bluneski@pogo.WV.TEK.COM (Bob Luneski) (10/13/90)
In article <8999@milton.u.washington.edu> iho@akbar.UUCP (Il Oh) writes: >In article <316@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> galanter@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Philip Galanter) writes: >> >Third party memory might be fairly easy, but I've yet to hear from someone >who has successfully attached a third party hard disk to a NeXT. There >are some horror stories floating around about people who tried to attach >third party hard disks to cubes > I have a co-worker friend who has a 660 meg CDC WREN and a 330 meg CDC WREN attached to his NeXT cube. He had no problems at all attaching them. He posted a message to the NeXT newsgroup and got all the help he needed. ____________________________________________________________________________ Bob Luneski bluneski@pogo.WV.TEK.COM Genie: B.LUNESKI1 The opinions expressed herein are my own and in no way reflect the opinions of Tektronix, Inc.
ekrimen@csuchico.edu (Ed Krimen) (10/13/90)
kawakami@earthquake.Berkeley.EDU (John Kawakami) writes:
- BTW, since this is an atari group: why does atari have so many
- versions of the same machine: the STes, the Megas, the Stacy. Note,
- there are many macs as well: Plus, SE, SE/30, IIxx. but the
- capabilities of the different machines are somewhat varied. The STs
- are all basically the same machines with the same clock speed and
- processor; they differ only in memory.
They use only one processor because TOS 1.0, 1.2, and 1.4 only works
with a 68000 (Although we know about those guys in Europe. But then
Atari Corp. is too stubborn.).
- Shouldn't Atari just make...
Interesting choice of words. :^) Atari should do a lot of things,
but they don't. Hopefully this will change after COMDEX. IT HAD
BETTER!
Atari should do a lot of other things for the ST, but they don't.
They like to dabble in other markets with the Portfolio, Lynx, and
those wonderful pocket calculators. We hope that Uncle Jack, in his
infinite wisdom :^), is right on this part. Atari Corp. is growing,
although few people can explain its stock price. We would also like
to see the ST do better in the US at least, but alas, we must wait
for Atari to make the moves.
- - the Mega box and have SIMM sockets. OOPS forgot about Stacy.
- They should keep Stacy.
The STe's and TT should be a good change from the conventional STs.
Although the STe is still considered a 'closed box,' you can upgrade
its memory easily and add a faster processor like a 68030 fairly
easily, from what I understand. Moreover, I played some Noisetracker
modules on my STe and they sound spectacular.
--
==========================================================================
Ed Krimen - ekrimen@csuchico.edu - ||| SysOp, Fuji BBS 916-894-1261
Video Production Major ||| [ THIS SPACE AVAILABLE ]
California State University, Chico / | \ [ LEAVE E-MAIL ]grahamt@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Graham Thomas) (10/16/90)
From article <1990Oct12.190148.16154@agate.berkeley.edu>, by kawakami@earthquake.Berkeley.EDU (John Kawakami): > > BTW, since this is an atari group: why does atari have so many versions of > the same machine: the STes, the Megas, the Stacy. Note, there are many > macs as well: Plus, SE, SE/30, IIxx. but the capabilities of the different > machines are somewhat varied. The STs are all basically the same machines > with the same clock speed and processor; they differ only in memory. > Shouldn't Atari just make the Mega box and have SIMM sockets. OOPS forgot > about Stacy. They should keep Stacy. > John Kawakami kawakami@ocf.berkeley.edu Good point. To make matters worse, here in the UK many dealers are still also selling STFM bundles too. I guess the reason Atari doesn't just make the Mega box is that they're more expensive. It's going to get worse rather than better: to judge from Derek Mui's messages of a while ago, the Mega STE's a strong possibility, with SIMMs and the new TT desktop. At the moment, in the UK at least, an STE with expanded memory is pretty good value - half the price of an equivalent Mega. The main thing present buyers have to worry about is whether the machine bought is old stock (with an early version of TOS 1.6 and/or a faulty DMA chip which screws up most hard disks) or new. As Atari aren't *officially* admitting that there were ever any STEs with faulty DMA chips, it's hard to tell without invalidating your warranty and finding someone who knows how to tell the difference without messing around with a hard disk. (Or am I wrong here? Does anyone know a reliable, non-invasive test procedure?) Graham -- Graham Thomas, SPRU, Mantell Building, U of Sussex, Brighton, BN1 9RF, UK JANET: grahamt@uk.ac.sussex.syma BITNET: grahamt%syma.sussex.ac.uk@UKACRL INTERNET: grahamt%syma.sussex.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk UUCP: grahamt%syma.sussex@ukc.uucp PHONE: +44 273 686758 FAX: [..] 685865