CXS128@psuvm.psu.edu (10/13/90)
I don't know how many of you follow comp.sys.amiga but one of the topics
over there is an ST emulator that works! It seems that this program contains
a copy of TOS and GEM in it. I don't think this is compleately legal. For
anyone intrested in knowing the site with this program it is abcfd20.larc.nasa.
gov directory incoming/amiga program name atari1.
John T.icsu8053@ming.cs.montana.edu (Craig Pratt) (10/14/90)
In article <90285.225011CXS128@psuvm.psu.edu> CXS128@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > > I don't know how many of you follow comp.sys.amiga but one of the topics >over there is an ST emulator that works! It seems that this program contains >a copy of TOS and GEM in it. I don't think this is compleately legal. For >anyone intrested in knowing the site with this program it is abcfd20.larc.nasa. >gov directory incoming/amiga program name atari1. > > John T. I was invited/challenged to come over to a friends the other day to try out some of my software on Atari1 on his Amiga 500. Here are the results: Degas (original): -Can't flip between screens -Have to reboot to exit UniTerm 2.0e: -You can't flip back to term screen -Doesn't talk to the modem -Eventually bombs Opus 2.23: -Works just fine! (REAL slow scrolling -Actually printed out a graph! Cool Tetris: -BOOM!! Battle Zone: -BIG boom! (Had to turn off the Amiga) Drachen: -Loads title screen, then wierd garbage -Had to reset Joust: -Atomic blast (Had to power cycle) Star Raiders: -Ditto Unix Windows: -Woudn't talk to the modem I was truly amazed that it ran Opus at all considering that it uses GDOS. It didn't load desk accessories at all. Everything was very slow, especially the disk accesses. It took about two minutes to load the GDOS fonts. The color resolutions were VERY flakey. Mono was better but the whole screen was stretched vertically and was about 1.5" too low. It was very difficult to read any fine, horizontal lines due to interlacing. I can't possibly believe that this thing is legal. It would be quite a trick to reverse-engineer all of TOS GEM and the ADI and have it work. It simply looked like a hacked version of TOS 1.2 (1040 TOS). Many of the dialog boxes for the desktop were just loaded with different text. It would seem that the serial port and sound are not supported in any fashon. The printer seems to work, though. Also, Atari1 takes over the whole machine. You have to reboot to get out. All in all, I don't think I'd call Atari1 an emulator - not even close to the level of the Mac emulators. It's just an interesting/illegal hack job. More novelty than utility. Oh well, at least Amiga users can run Opus now, at half speed. (No, I didn't give him a copy) BTW, George Harrison, are we going to see a new version of Opus soon? -- / Craig Pratt / icsu8053@caesar.cs.montana.edu / / Montana State University, Bozeman MT / Craig.Pratt@msu3.oscs.montana.edu / / " Nothing beats the taste sensation when maple syrup collides with ham " / /________ Special Agent Cooper, _TWIN PEAKS_ ______________________________/
oleg@crash.cts.com (Oleg Rovner) (10/15/90)
In article <90285.225011CXS128@psuvm.psu.edu> CXS128@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > > I don't know how many of you follow comp.sys.amiga but one of the topics >over there is an ST emulator that works! It seems that this program contains >a copy of TOS and GEM in it. I don't think this is compleately legal. For [adress of ftp site skipped] > John T. Of course the key word is "seems". The emulator may also contain a work-alike of TOS, a la 64 emulator that recently came out for the Amiga. OR ***************************************************************************** I don't see how the refresh rate can be slow on a 16 or 25 MHz 68030 CPU. Sure, the CPU takes on a big burden, but it's a fast CPU. The 8 MHz Amiga does great color animation and game-play - I would think a 16 or 25 MHz 68030 color Mac would at least be its equal, don't you? --a MacIIseries owner on c.s.mac.games --
psurge@cs.utexas.edu (Troy Carpenter) (10/16/90)
In article <5039@crash.cts.com>, oleg@crash.cts.com (Oleg Rovner) writes: > In article <90285.225011CXS128@psuvm.psu.edu> CXS128@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > > > > I don't know how many of you follow comp.sys.amiga but one of the topics > >over there is an ST emulator that works! It seems that this program contains > >a copy of TOS and GEM in it. I don't think this is compleately legal. For > [adress of ftp site skipped] > > John T. > > Of course the key word is "seems". The emulator may also contain a > work-alike of TOS, a la 64 emulator that recently came out for the > Amiga. > I have copies of both of the emulators, I plan to send them to Atari and see what the legal dept. thinks. Anyone interested can get them at the following site: abcfd20.larc.nasa.gov look in the directory /incoming/amiga give the command 'dir Atari*' and you will see the 4 files for it. Troy Carpenter Department of Computer Sciences THE University of Texas, Austin psurge@cs.utexas.edu "You're so open minded that your brain leaked out" - Steve Taylor *>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The best thing in life costs exactly that <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<*
graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (JIM GRAHAM) (10/16/90)
In article <13612@cs.utexas.edu>, psurge@cs.utexas.edu (Troy Carpenter) writes... >I have copies of both of the emulators, I plan to send them to Atari and see >what the legal dept. thinks. Anyone interested can get them at the following Of what relevance is Atari's opinion? Wouldn't it make more sense to ask the authors? Amiga already has a darned good Macintosh emulator, which uses Mac Roms, and it is perfectly legal. I bring this up because it seems that the obvious answer from Atari will be "No! It is not legal." There is no real way to know this until some kind of legal precedent is set because Atari, in their own best interests will probably say whatever is in their favor. -> ->Disclaimer: I'm not ashamed of what I say. <- <- Sorry if the above disclaimer is too long. __________________________________________________________ | Internet: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu | | UUCP: dolmen!graham@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu | | FIDO: Soon! | | BBS: The PORTAL DOLMEN, (812) 334-0418, 24hrs. | |__________________________________________________________|
depeche@quiche.cs.mcgill.ca (Sam Alan EZUST) (10/16/90)
In article <13612@cs.utexas.edu> psurge@cs.utexas.edu (Troy Carpenter) writes: >In article <5039@crash.cts.com>, oleg@crash.cts.com (Oleg Rovner) writes: >> In article <90285.225011CXS128@psuvm.psu.edu> CXS128@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >> > >> > I don't know how many of you follow comp.sys.amiga but one of the topics >> >over there is an ST emulator that works! It seems that this program contains >> >a copy of TOS and GEM in it. I don't think this is compleately legal. For >> [adress of ftp site skipped] > >I have copies of both of the emulators, I plan to send them to Atari and see >what the legal dept. thinks. > > Troy Carpenter > Department of Computer Sciences > THE University of Texas, Austin > psurge@cs.utexas.edu oh jeezus.... So now the Atari users, who are enjoying the use of PC-Ditto and software Macintosh emulators are getting ready to prevent other people from doing the same thing on other computers??? I don't believe this. Haven't we learned anything from the GNU/Macintosh debates? The entire reason GNU has stuff out for Atari and NOT for Mac is because Apple is so sue-happy that GNU felt it a waste of time to port it onto a computer which is run by such a haughty company (this is just my interpretation of it - I am sure that if someone stated only the facts over this debate, which took place quite a few years ago, other interpretations can be made). And why would it hurt Atari if Amiga users were running Atari programs on it? All that would do is increase the popularity of the ST - more people would be using it, and perhaps buying software for it, and maybe even WRITING software for it!!! This sort of behaviour should be encouraged, don't you think? I think Atari should be flattered that Amiga users are going through SO MUCH TROUBLE to run the awesome programs available on their (our) wonderful machine!!! -- |S. Alan Ezust | depeche@quiche.cs.mcgill.ca| |McGill University School of Computer Science | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | |---------------------------------------------------------------------------| | All typos (C) 1990 by SAE - All rights reserved |
stephen@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Steve Whitney) (10/16/90)
^In article <6343@cica.cica.indiana.edu> graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu writes:
^In article <13612@cs.utexas.edu>, psurge@cs.utexas.edu (Troy Carpenter) writes...
^>I have copies of both of the emulators, I plan to send them to Atari and see
^>what the legal dept. thinks. Anyone interested can get them at the following
^
^Of what relevance is Atari's opinion?
^Wouldn't it make more sense to ask the authors?
Atari holds a copyright on the operating system they wrote (and licensed).
If there is indeed a copy of that operating system in the emulator, then
there's no question that it violates copyright law.
^
^Amiga already has a darned good Macintosh emulator, which uses Mac Roms,
^and it is perfectly legal.
^
And if, in fact, there were a legal way to run the ST emulator without
pirating Atari's OS, then it might be legal as well.
^I bring this up because it seems that the obvious answer from Atari will
^be "No! It is not legal." There is no real way to know this until some
^kind of legal precedent is set because Atari, in their own best interests
^will probably say whatever is in their favor.
Again, there are plenty of legal precedent for copyright infringement. Even
if it requires TOS on disk and there's no way to get that without pirating
it from an ST, it'll be on shaky ground.
_If_, on the other hand, they authors have reverse engineered TOS using a
verifiable clean room process, it may all be legal.
^
^-> ->Disclaimer: I'm not ashamed of what I say. <- <-
^ Sorry if the above disclaimer is too long.
^ __________________________________________________________
^| Internet: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu |
^| UUCP: dolmen!graham@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu |
^| FIDO: Soon! |
^| BBS: The PORTAL DOLMEN, (812) 334-0418, 24hrs. |
^|__________________________________________________________|
--
Steve Whitney "It's never _really_ the last minute" (())_-_(())
UCLA Comp. Sci. Grad. Student | (* *) |
Internet: stephen@cs.ucla.edu UCLA Bruin--> { \_@_/ }
GEnie: S.WHITNEY `-----' tar@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Tim Roeder) (10/16/90)
In article <6343@cica.cica.indiana.edu>, graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (JIM GRAHAM) writes: > In article <13612@cs.utexas.edu>, psurge@cs.utexas.edu (Troy Carpenter) writes... > >I have copies of both of the emulators, I plan to send them to Atari and see > >what the legal dept. thinks. Anyone interested can get them at the following > > Of what relevance is Atari's opinion? > Wouldn't it make more sense to ask the authors? Of what relevance? Only concerns about possible violations of copyright laws...nah, that's not relevant. You're right about asking the authors, though. Just where did they get their copies of TOS? > > Amiga already has a darned good Macintosh emulator, which uses Mac Roms, > and it is perfectly legal. > As the ST has a good Mac emulator, which is also legal since it requires the use of Mac ROMS, which, incidently are COPYRIGHTED. > I bring this up because it seems that the obvious answer from Atari will > be "No! It is not legal." There is no real way to know this until some > kind of legal precedent is set because Atari, in their own best interests > will probably say whatever is in their favor. I believe what you say (as regards to your motives), but am somewhat amazed at your apparent lack of knowledge and/or concern about possible copyright violations. I'm not aware of Atari having licensed a s/w bootable version of TOS that can be used by said emulator. Please note that I am not intending to flame -- I just want to clear up any misconceptions you might have. Regards, -- Timothy A. Roeder - Northern Arizona University(NAU)/Univeristy of Arizona(UA) UUCP: ...!arizona!naucse!tar (NAU) Internet: tar@naucse.cse.nau.edu (NAU) -- troeder@mis.arizona.edu (UA) Bitnet: roedert@arizvm1.BITNET (UA)
graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (JIM GRAHAM) (10/16/90)
In article <2696@naucse.cse.nau.edu>, tar@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Tim Roeder) writes... >In article <6343@cica.cica.indiana.edu>, graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (JIM GRAHAM) writes: >> In article <13612@cs.utexas.edu>, psurge@cs.utexas.edu (Troy Carpenter) writes... >> >I have copies of both of the emulators, I plan to send them to Atari and see >> >what the legal dept. thinks. Anyone interested can get them at the following >> >> Of what relevance is Atari's opinion? >> Wouldn't it make more sense to ask the authors? > >Of what relevance? Only concerns about possible violations of copyright >laws...nah, that's not relevant. You're right about asking the authors, >though. Just where did they get their copies of TOS? I'd like to know too. I have the program, which does NOT come with any documentation. It's rather interesting though, since I have never used an Atari (yes, it's true....I have an Amiga ;-) ). BTW: I ftp'ed a program called "amiga_em", which is a "joke" amiga emulator. Very cute. Made my amiga emulating an atari look just like an amiga! Wow! What was really bizarre is when I used that same program to emulate an atari, emulated by an emulated amiga, emulated by an emulated atari, on my amiga....got that?!!! If I recall, the poster of the program (to abcfd20) included a short blurb about how HE modified the original to change all German words to English. He also mentioned that he did NOT know whether the program was legal. > >> >> Amiga already has a darned good Macintosh emulator, which uses Mac Roms, >> and it is perfectly legal. >> > >As the ST has a good Mac emulator, which is also legal since it requires >the use of Mac ROMS, which, incidently are COPYRIGHTED. > >> I bring this up because it seems that the obvious answer from Atari will >> be "No! It is not legal." There is no real way to know this until some >> kind of legal precedent is set because Atari, in their own best interests >> will probably say whatever is in their favor. > >I believe what you say (as regards to your motives), but am somewhat >amazed at your apparent lack of knowledge and/or concern about possible >copyright violations. I'm not aware of Atari having licensed a s/w >bootable version of TOS that can be used by said emulator. Actually, when I wrote this, I was thinking more of the old (and hopefully dead) battles between Apple, Microsoft, and others over the so-called "look- and-feel" gui's, which everyone knows were created by Xerox...NOT Apple. It is true that if the program is claimed to be shareware or pd AND legal, which, incidentally it is not (no docs), then the burden of proof of its legality falls on the shoulders of the writers (assuming they meant for it to be distributed in the first place). I meant no disregard for concern about copyright violations. >Please note that I am not intending to flame -- I just want to clear up >any misconceptions you might have. Jim -> ->Disclaimer: I'm not ashamed of what I say. <- <- Sorry if the above disclaimer is too long. __________________________________________________________ | Internet: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu | | UUCP: dolmen!graham@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu | | FIDO: Soon! | | BBS: The PORTAL DOLMEN, (812) 334-0418, 24hrs. | |__________________________________________________________|
rjc@wookumz.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (10/16/90)
In article <13612@cs.utexas.edu> psurge@cs.utexas.edu (Troy Carpenter) writes: > >I have copies of both of the emulators, I plan to send them to Atari and see >what the legal dept. thinks. Anyone interested can get them at the following >site: > >abcfd20.larc.nasa.gov >look in the directory /incoming/amiga >give the command 'dir Atari*' and you will see the 4 files for it. I don't know what good something like this will do. 1)The original author of the emulator is unknown. Hence there is no one to take legal actionn again. 2) The thing has been spread to the ends of the Amiga community. (Almost every BBS I know of have it, and this has been since 4-5 months ago.) There is also another version which doesn't contain the TOS, it tells you to go out and find the TOS on a bootable disk and put it in the drive. 3) It might ruin a perfectly good Ftp site. Alot of net priveleges are disappearing. Like alt.* groups and ftp sites being censored because of small incidents like these. 3) The thing doesn't work on most amiga's. 4) It doesnt work well in color, and only seems to run about 50% of ST software in Mono. At most, some ftp sites will be forced to delete it, but its already in mass circulation, and most bbs sysops won't even realize its illegal. And out of the ones that do, they probably won't do anything about it. I don't support piracy, but this is the cold hard facts. I have seen AMAX spread around on BBSs and the majority of people thought it was freeware. (Amax=Mac emulator) > > Troy Carpenter > Department of Computer Sciences > THE University of Texas, Austin > psurge@cs.utexas.edu > >"You're so open minded that your brain leaked out" - Steve Taylor > >*>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The best thing in life costs exactly that <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<* > -- "NeXTs are useless... Mac's are irrelevent.. IBM's are futile. Amiga's,however, are quite nice!" -Capt Jeal-Luc Amiga | Flames to /dev/null Ray Cromwell rjc@wookumz.ai.mit.edu | // AMIGA! \\ "Your software will adapt to service ours!"| \X/ AMIGA! \X/
jcksnsr@nmt.edu (Jeffrey C. King) (10/16/90)
In article <6343@cica.cica.indiana.edu> graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu writes: >In article <13612@cs.utexas.edu>, psurge@cs.utexas.edu (Troy Carpenter) writes... >>I have copies of both of the emulators, I plan to send them to Atari and see >>what the legal dept. thinks. Anyone interested can get them at the following > >Of what relevance is Atari's opinion? >Wouldn't it make more sense to ask the authors? > >Amiga already has a darned good Macintosh emulator, which uses Mac Roms, >and it is perfectly legal. There is a complete world of difference between a MAC Emulator which uses ROMS produced by apple and an Atari Emulator which uses copies of TOS and GEM to function... in the MAC emulator you are not making copies of someone else's work, you are using a copy sold to you by THEM for your purpose. If the Atari emulator (which apparently sucks) uses bogus copies of TOS and GEM then the people producing and distributing that emulator have violated the copyrights of both ATARI and DRI... It is important to note that othert emulators and PC clones use versions of the operating system written by their producers or licensed legally and not simply direct copies of the parent OS. This is one of the reasons why emulators and clones are not 100% compatible.. JEff
paul@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Paul Siu) (10/16/90)
In article <90285.225011CXS128@psuvm.psu.edu> CXS128@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > > I don't know how many of you follow comp.sys.amiga but one of the topics >over there is an ST emulator that works! It seems that this program contains >a copy of TOS and GEM in it. I don't think this is compleately legal. For >anyone intrested in knowing the site with this program it is abcfd20.larc.nasa. >gov directory incoming/amiga program name atari1. > Information on the ST emulator for the Amiga can be found in the recent issue of computer Shopper (either Sep or Oct) in the Amiga section. There are two in existent. One is a software emulator that the author calls a real joke. The other is a hardware emulator call the Medusa which I think is still in development.
newton@ils.nwu.edu (David Newton) (10/16/90)
+ oh jeezus.... So now the Atari users, who are enjoying the use of PC-Ditto + and software Macintosh emulators are getting ready to prevent other people + from doing the same thing on other computers??? I don't believe this. + Haven't we learned anything from the GNU/Macintosh debates? The entire + reason GNU has stuff out for Atari and NOT for Mac is because Apple is so + sue-happy that GNU felt it a waste of time to port it onto a computer which + is run by such a haughty company (this is just my interpretation of it - I + am sure that if someone stated only the facts over this debate, which took + place quite a few years ago, other interpretations can be made). Yeah, but PC-Ditto and Spectre are _legal_... If they (the creators of the so-called ST emulator (which apparently is buggy as hell)) had licensed TOS/GEM, fine--no complaints. But even _I_ have a problem with something so blatantly (apparently) illegal. David L. Newton | Work: (708) 491-4791 | VR is great!! I died in one- ILS | Home: (708) 332-2321 | (with virtual insurance, of 1890 Maple St. |------------------------| course) collected it, and am Evanston, IL 60201 | "Purveyors of fine AI" | now virtually happy. I think.
rnews@qut.edu.au (10/17/90)
In article <90285.225011CXS128@psuvm.psu.edu>, CXS128@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > > I don't know how many of you follow comp.sys.amiga but one of the topics > over there is an ST emulator that works! It seems that this program contains > a copy of TOS and GEM in it. I don't think this is compleately legal. For > anyone intrested in knowing the site with this program it is abcfd20.larc.nasa. > gov directory incoming/amiga program name atari1. > > John T. We have had a play with this ... Only thing thats run so far is Gulam. None of the gem stuff has run. I wouldn't think so highly of it .... can't even run neodesk :-) BOB ST User and NeoDesk fan extroardinaire