jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (10/18/90)
When the Atari ST came in the mid 80's it was the best price/performance machine, I think. But now I have begun to think that it isn't it anymore. I just hope they could have kept it that way... Well, now it seems to be the NeXT. Currently Atari's are similarly priced to Amiga's and Macs (because of the new cheapish models). I wish Atari had some kind of educational discount, since otherways there is no way I would buy a TT over a NextStation (Think about getting a 68040 machine with 8MEG, DSP, good monitor, Unix, and 105HD for $3500). I think something has to be done. (And I wish something will be done, since there is lots of nice software for the ST, too.) Jouni
kclenden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Kevin Clendenien) (10/19/90)
In article <3375.271cee3c@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >When the Atari ST came in the mid 80's it was the best price/performance >machine, I think. But now I have begun to think that it isn't it >anymore. I just hope they could have kept it that way... Well, now it >seems to be the NeXT. Currently Atari's are similarly priced to Amiga's >and Macs (because of the new cheapish models). I wish Atari had some >kind of educational discount, since otherways there is no way I would >buy a TT over a NextStation (Think about getting a 68040 machine with >8MEG, DSP, good monitor, Unix, and 105HD for $3500). > >I think something has to be done. (And I wish something will be done, >since there is lots of nice software for the ST, too.) > > Jouni Oh come off it! I have a catalog from J&R Music World in front of me. Here are two prices it shows: Atari 520ST-FM 68000 processor 512KB RAM Built-in 3.5 inch disk drive $329.95 Atari 1040STE 68000 processor 1MB RAM Built-in 3.5 inch disk drive Blitter Digital stereo $599.95 When you can buy a mac for $600, you let me know. Take a look at the 520ST-FM price. A 68000 based computer, with a 720KB disk drive for $330??!!? Jesus, what do you guys want, a miracle? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- kclenden@silver.bacs.indiana.edu Kevin Clendenien BLAST BBS - (812) 332-0573 BLAST, President "I want someone like you, only nicer."
steve@thelake.mn.org (Steve Yelvington) (10/19/90)
[In article <65661@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu>,
kclenden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Kevin Clendenien) writes ... ]
> Oh come off it! I have a catalog from J&R Music World in front of me.
> Here are two prices it shows:
> Atari 520ST-FM
> 68000 processor
> 512KB RAM
> Built-in 3.5 inch disk drive
> $329.95
>
> Atari 1040STE
> 68000 processor
> 1MB RAM
> Built-in 3.5 inch disk drive
> Blitter
> Digital stereo
> $599.95
Those are good prices for what you get, but I (and a lot of other people)
would like to see something much bigger and faster -- i.e., in the realm
of contemporary computers and not stuck in 1985. My ST has a bad memory
chip, and rather than fix, it, I eventually am going to replace it with
something faster. I'm not going to spend $3000 to do so.
For those who are interested in prices, here are some I picked up today
from my local Atari dealer. You can see how much prices have dropped for
memory-stuffed CPUs.
520STFM $379 1040STE
with 1MB $549 with 1MB $649
with 2MB $859
with 4MB $874 with 4MB $1019
--
Steve Yelvington up at the lake in Minnesota
The easy way: steve@thelake.mn.org
The hard way: {plains,rutgers,apple,cray}!umn-cs!thelake!steve
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (10/19/90)
In article <65661@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu> kclenden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Kevin Clendenien) writes: >>I think something has to be done. (And I wish something will be done, >>since there is lots of nice software for the ST, too.) Ah, but will they do anything? Will it be in time? >> Jouni >Oh come off it! I have a catalog from J&R Music World in front of me. My my, aren't we testy? You neglect to mention that these prices do not include a monitor. Besides, Jouni was speaking about POWER without the prices. Five year old technology in a repackaged box is NOT power. >Here are two prices it shows: Oh boy! Actual numbers to play with. > Atari 520ST-FM > 68000 processor > 512KB RAM > Built-in 3.5 inch disk drive > $329.95 So what? Add in $200 for mono or $300 for color and you finally have a usable system (for about $600). Why don't you explain to me what "powerful" things you can do with a 512K 520ST these days with a 720K drive and no hard disk? If you spend an extra $100 for the color monitor, you can play games with it. If you don't spend the $100, you can do a little word processing (if you have small documents), but then you lose most of the games. > Atari 1040STE > 68000 processor > 1MB RAM > Built-in 3.5 inch disk drive > Blitter > Digital stereo > $599.95 Big deal. You get the same as above with a little more memory and a Blitter chip to speed up screen re-draws. Still no monitor. With a monitor, you get $800 for mono and $900 for color. (Hey, that's funny. I paid about the same for my 1040ST in 1986. I'm sure the components are FAR cheaper than they were back then so why is the price unchanged?) >When you can buy a mac for $600, you let me know. Take a look at the Ahem, you CAN buy a Mac Classic with a 1.2 meg disk drive, 1 meg RAM with its own little monitor for $749 (Computer Era in NYC). You get a ready to use system (keyboard included too) for this with a friendlier OS and more software support. >520ST-FM price. A 68000 based computer, with a 720KB disk drive for >$330??!!? Jesus, what do you guys want, a miracle? Yeah, but when you add in the cost of the monitor, the price isn't much lower than a Mac Classic. A $100 savings wouldn't make me want to buy a relatively unsupported computer. >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >kclenden@silver.bacs.indiana.edu Kevin Clendenien >BLAST BBS - (812) 332-0573 BLAST, President > "I want someone like you, only nicer." Cheers, Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |D{r det finns en |l, finns cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |det en plan! (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null | ------------------------------+---------------------------
Xorg@cup.portal.com (Peter Ted Szymonik) (10/20/90)
I have long suggested that Atari change its motto to
"Yesterday's Technology Tomorrow!"
:-]
Peter Szymonikiho@cac.washington.edu (Il Oh) (10/20/90)
In article <35050@cup.portal.com> Xorg@cup.portal.com (Peter Ted Szymonik) writes: > > >I have long suggested that Atari change its motto to > > "Yesterday's Technology Tomorrow!" Make that "real soon now". -- "Gosh! You've really got | Il Hwan Oh some nice toys in here." | University of Washington, Tacoma -- Roy Batty, Bladerunner | iho@cac.washington.edu |
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (10/21/90)
In article <65661@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu>, kclenden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Kevin Clendenien) writes: > In article <3375.271cee3c@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >>When the Atari ST came in the mid 80's it was the best price/performance >>machine, I think. But now I have begun to think that it isn't it >>anymore. I just hope they could have kept it that way... Well, now it (some of my own text deleted) >>I think something has to be done. (And I wish something will be done, >>since there is lots of nice software for the ST, too.) >> >> Jouni > > > Oh come off it! I have a catalog from J&R Music World in front of me. > Here are two prices it shows: > Atari 520ST-FM > 68000 processor > 512KB RAM > Built-in 3.5 inch disk drive > $329.95 > > Atari 1040STE > 68000 processor > 1MB RAM > Built-in 3.5 inch disk drive > Blitter > Digital stereo > $599.95 > > When you can buy a mac for $600, you let me know. Take a look at the > 520ST-FM price. A 68000 based computer, with a 720KB disk drive for > $330??!!? Jesus, what do you guys want, a miracle? > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > kclenden@silver.bacs.indiana.edu Kevin Clendenien > BLAST BBS - (812) 332-0573 BLAST, President > "I want someone like you, only nicer." Well, as Mauritz said, even the low-end Ataris aren't incredibly cheap anymore. But what I was talking about, were mainly NEW computers with at least a 68030. The comparable models are A3000, Mac IIsi and Atari TT. I suppose that these all will be priced about the same in the US. I am not interested in the low-end Atari's since they are quite old technology and I already have a MEGA4. I can't make up a good reason to choose an A3000, TT (or even an IIsi) over the NeXT because for the same price I can get a n-times more effective and valuable machine. IF Atari TT's would-be price was about $3000 AND you could get a reasonable EDUCATIONAL DISCOUNT, then I could consider buying it. But I can't continue supporting Atari only because they did some very good things half a decade ago... (If I had enough money I would keep the MEGA4 as a MIDI-platform on the side of the NeXT. The best thing would be to get an Atari comparable to the NeXT for the same price...) Jouni
stephen@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Steve Whitney) (10/21/90)
In article <1990Oct19.141027.28420@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: > >My my, aren't we testy? You neglect to mention that these prices do not >include a monitor. Besides, Jouni was speaking about POWER without the >prices. Five year old technology in a repackaged box is NOT power. [Ranting about lack of power in STs deleted] [He continues to say taht you can't do anything with a 512k St w/o hard disk.] >Ahem, you CAN buy a Mac Classic with a 1.2 meg disk drive, 1 meg RAM >with its own little monitor for $749 (Computer Era in NYC). You get >a ready to use system (keyboard included too) for this with a friendlier >OS and more software support. > So, Chris, you complain about repackaged the STE as 5 year old technology and then suggest a Mac Classic?!? You also said that an ST system w/o hard disk was useless. At least an ST won't make you swap disks every two minutes to load in another hunk of the operating system. True, with the exception of the stereo sound, the STE is basically a slightly faster (Blitter, TOS 1.6) ST, but the Mac Classic is a slightly faster original (128k) Mac with more memory. Also, please note that you can bump an STE up form 1 Meg to 4 Meg for about $200. I did so with mine. I'm not going to get into the OS debate here, but a floppy based ST system is definitely useful. Unless you need to do a lot of compiled programming or a lot of heavy stuff, STs are perfectly useful with only a floppy. Your comments about the STs needing a monitor and the Mac CLassic coming with one are valid. > >Cheers, > >Chris > >------------------------------+--------------------------- >Chris Mauritz |D{r det finns en |l, finns >cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |det en plan! >(c)All rights reserved. | >Send flames to /dev/null | >------------------------------+--------------------------- -- Steve Whitney "It's never _really_ the last minute" (())_-_(()) UCLA Comp. Sci. Grad. Student | (* *) | Internet: stephen@cs.ucla.edu UCLA Bruin--> { \_@_/ } GEnie: S.WHITNEY `-----'
techno@lime.in-berlin.de (Frank Dahnke) (10/21/90)
[C. Mauritz's flames deleted]
Mauritz, *PLEASE* tell us why you still own an ATARI ???
Techno
--
|techno@zelator.in-berlin.de| |Please do not e-mail from outside Germany !|
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Nothing that's real is ever for free, you just have to pay for it some- |
| time. (Al Stewart) |Xorg@cup.portal.com (Peter Ted Szymonik) (10/22/90)
But read the fine print. The $750 Mac Classic does NOT include a hard drive and that price is often available if you purchase the "Mac Classic Package" with the hard drive and a printer - bumping the price to a lofty $1,499, otherwise you'll pay $850-900 for the Classic. (and every try and use a Mac off floppies? we're talking 43 disk swaps to copy a disk...) Peter Szymonik
shipley@tron.UUCP (Bill Shipley) (10/22/90)
One reason not to buy a NeXT is the lack of a significant user base. Unless the sales of NeXT machines increases dramatically, development of application software for the NeXT will be miniscule even when compared to the ST applications available. Bill Shipley
steve@thelake.mn.org (Steve Yelvington) (10/23/90)
[In article <656@tron.UUCP>,
shipley@tron.UUCP (Bill Shipley) writes ... ]
> One reason not to buy a NeXT is the lack of a significant user base. Unless
> the sales of NeXT machines increases dramatically, development of
> application software for the NeXT will be miniscule even when compared to
> the ST applications available.
I've looked at the NeXT. I like it. I'll like even better with color, more
speed and a lower price. Except for games and MIDI, the NeXT already has
software in every major classification that's far superior to anything
available on the ST, despite the ST's five-year head start. One rumor a
year or so ago suggested that the TT would be a low-cost NeXT clone, even
built on the same assembly lines. I wish.
--
Steve Yelvington up at the lake in Minnesota
The easy way: steve@thelake.mn.org
The hard way: {plains,rutgers,apple,cray}!umn-cs!thelake!steve
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (10/23/90)
In article <656@tron.UUCP>, shipley@tron.UUCP (Bill Shipley) writes: > One reason not to buy a NeXT is the lack of a significant user base. Unless > the sales of NeXT machines increases dramatically, development of > application software for the NeXT will be miniscule even when compared to > the ST applications available. > > Bill Shipley This is an old Chicken&Egg problem. I bought one of the first Atari ST's in Finland many years ago. There was even less software for the ST then than there is for NeXT now. And NeXT IS selling quite well, I understand that they sell about all the machines they can produce. I for one would like to MAKE the software, not just use it, and for this, NeXT would be ideal with it's Interface Builder and everything. Don't get me wrong, I like my ST. But I just wish Atari could make as good price/performance than NeXT does - I bought my ST back then when it was the best price/performance. And I can't live with my old 68000 forever... Jouni
archbold@bluemoon.uucp (Archie Jaszcz) (10/24/90)
shipley@tron.UUCP (Bill Shipley) writes: > One reason not to buy a NeXT is the lack of a significant user base. Unless > the sales of NeXT machines increases dramatically, development of > application software for the NeXT will be miniscule even when compared to > the ST applications available. > > Bill Shipley That might be true, but on the other hand if NeXT's sales increase dramatically, a new and higher price of the whole machine might result... You can't win everything at the same time... Archbold osu-cis!n8emr!bluemoon!archbold Disclaimer: I haven't seen Veronica lately!
shipley@tron.UUCP (Bill Shipley) (10/25/90)
According to a recent news article, NeXT sold about 7,000 machines in their first year. This does not appear to be enough to support large scale application development. I agree that the NeXT looks like a very nice machine and the price is becoming very attractive, but at the rate they are selling I would expect new software to appear much more slowly than it did for the ST. I realize that several very nice software packages are now available or will be RSN. If these are sufficient, or you spend most of your time programming for yourself, the NeXT could be a good choice. Bill Shipley
ST00482@auvm.auvm.edu (10/31/90)
There are a couple reasons why I would not buy a NeXT. First is that it really is not a computer that I would enjoy using at home. I work with UNIX all day and the last thing I want to do when I get home is to see the same thing. There are also serious games for the ST and the Amiga that just will never happen on the next. I know that some people will scoff at this, but blowing away 50 buzillion aliens is a good way to blow off steam. I tend to see the NeXT as more of a work computer than a fun computer. If I want to do some serious number crunching, I'll do it at work. If I want to have some fun, I want that option. Plus, UNIX can be a real headache. Just get a corrupted / partition and you know what I mean. dan.
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (11/01/90)
In article <90303.205457ST00482@auvm.auvm.edu>, ST00482@auvm.auvm.edu writes: > There are a couple reasons why I would not buy a NeXT. First is that > it really is not a computer that I would enjoy using at home. I work > with UNIX all day and the last thing I want to do when I get home is > to see the same thing. Hmmph! Haven't heard of NeXTStep? It is generally accepted that NeXT has the most user-friendly user interface in the whole business. If you only use applications, you don't usually have to use Unix (with cryptic shell commands) at all! And if you want to program, the NeXT is much more convenient than the ST is. > There are also serious games for the ST and the Amiga > that just will never happen on the next. I know that some people will scoff > at this, but blowing away 50 buzillion aliens is a good way to blow off steam. Well, SERIOUS games... There are much more games for the ST, but I think there will be some very good games for the NeXT. > I tend to see the NeXT as more of a work computer than a fun computer. If I > want to do some serious number crunching, I'll do it at work. If I want to > have some fun, I want that option. Plus, UNIX can be a real headache. Just > get a corrupted / partition and you know what I mean. Objective programming can be like playing good adventure games. > > dan. Remember, NeXT is no old-fashioned Unix-computer. The power of Unix just happens to be available (if wanted) all the time. I admit that if you want to play games (and that only) the ST is much better choice. But if you want to program... Jouni