keithr@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (U.D.M.) (10/11/90)
I have heard told of a new Mac called the Mac Classic. The scheduled release date is Oct 15th. The reason I am mentioning it here is because of the price. The Classic configured with 2Mb and a 40Mb hard drive is priced at $1500 or there abouts. Hmmm...Now I can get a Mega2, mono, at the cheapest for $1300 and then Toad Computers (The best hard drives) has a 30Mb for $539 or a 50Mb for $599. Lets see...that's $1500 for a Mac or $1839 to $1899 for an Atari. Its going to make it awfully hard for the ST dealers to sell NEW customers on the ST. Now don't get me wrong. I really like my ST. I am just looking at this from a marketing point of view and the additional problems this COULD bring to the dwindling ST market and dealers. Any comments? (Note: all prices are approximations. The Mac rumor came from a reliable source, but then how reliable are rumors ;-)) Keith keithr@icogem3.ICO.COM
gl8f@astsun7.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (10/12/90)
In article <6025@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> keithr@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (U.D.M.) writes: [ Apple has introduced a new cheap Mac, so Mega2's look overpriced ] >Now don't get me wrong. I really like my ST. I am just looking at >this from a marketing point of view and the additional problems this >COULD bring to the dwindling ST market and dealers. This happens all the time. Company X sells their widget for so much, and when Company Y lowers prices, so does X. I don't know what kind of margins Atari has on their stuff, but if you wait until you can actually buy a Mac Classic, you'll probably see a new, lower price on Amigas and STs and STes. -- "Restraint, hell. I'm just too fucking busy." -- Bill Wisner
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (10/12/90)
That was no rumour. Several reputable magazines have printed these
prices. The Mac classic is priced in such a matter that I can't
imagine anyone in that price range buying an Amiga or an Atari.
Also, the Mac IIsi (68030@20mhz) will sell for less than $4000. It
is rumoured to come with 2 megs RAM, 80 megs HD and a color monitor
board built in. You need only supply a monitor.
We'll see for sure soon. The OFFICIAL announcement is on Oct 15.
BTW, these are LIST prices. As we all know, Apple offers big discounts
for students (unlike Atari) so you can expect the student prices to
be MUCH better.
Cheers,
Chris
------------------------------+---------------------------
Chris Mauritz |D{r det finns en |l, finns
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |det en plan!
(c)All rights reserved. |
Send flames to /dev/null |
------------------------------+---------------------------iam@stbimbo.UUCP (Ian Mercado) (10/12/90)
So basically you're implying that the ST hardware in its own right is worth nothing? I think that it's worth the difference at the VERY least. -- -------- ---- ---- -- | Ian Mercado: iam@salestech.com | -- - - ----- -- | gatech!stiatl!iam | -- -------- -- ----- | | -------- -- -- -- ---- | "Can't keep my mind from the circling sky" |
rrd@hpfcso.HP.COM (Ray Depew) (10/12/90)
[discussion on the Mac Classic at $1500 vs. ST, STe, Mega, etc.] Well, I wouldn't want to bet on the success of an "ST Classic". Maybe Atari would sell them as bundled systems for $299 at Wal-mart or Costco. Most serious computer buyers will see the Mac Classic for what it is: it's the rest of Atari's old inventory, packaged in new cases (maybe?) and spruced up a little. They're just trying to clean out the warehouse. (It's definitely not "back by popular demand", a` la Coke Classic. Most Mac users would like to see all the old macs sent to sanitary landfill. Compared with the current Mac, the originals were real bow-wows.) PLEASE! No Mac-vs-ST wars! This is a marketing issue, not a technical issue, and we all know about the success :-( of Atari's marketing dept. Regards Ray Depew HP Colorado IC Division rrd@hpfitst1.hp.com
kawakami@earthquake.Berkeley.EDU (John Kawakami) (10/13/90)
In article <1990Oct12.010833.15174@ecst.csuchico.edu> ekrimen@cscihp.UUCP (Ed Krimen) writes: >But, more than a quarter (26%) [of mac users] DIDN'T KNOW how much >RAM they had in their machines!! Who doesn't know how much RAM they >have? >If you bought the machine, how can't you know how >much RAM you have? Isn't that like buying a car and not knowing it's >a coupe instead of a four-door? I couldn't understand why there were >so many out of the sample that didn't know. >-- >========================================================================== >Ed Krimen - ekrimen@csuchico.edu - ||| SysOp, Fuji BBS 916-894-1261 >Video Production Major ||| [ THIS SPACE AVAILABLE ] >California State University, Chico / | \ [ LEAVE E-MAIL ] It's more like buying a car and not knowing what type of engine is under the hood. Lots of people don't know what type of engine is in their car. It doesn't prevent them from driving, but they probably are not getting the best use out of the car and if they get in trouble and have to deal with it themselves or have to exlplain the probelm to someone, they might be in a real predicament. I suspect that many people buy the Mac to do one or two things, and get "consultation" on how to set it up. Basically, they are paying through the nose to remain ignorant. But they are also paying to not deal with all the "technicalities" of computers, like RAM, processor speed, screen resolution, disk drive format, printer drivers (the ImageWriter!), soft- ware purchasing (they buy it with the machine), etc. etc. I know people who are still using System 5xxxx because they did not get the info about System 6! This is not a Mac-exclusive problem. There are PC owners who don't know about MORE < filename, TYPE filename, MD dirname, and other DOS functions. Even more don't know about AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS!!!! THIS IS TRUE! I'm doing tech support for a program which requires the DISPLAY=ANSI.SYS line in CONFIG.SYS (it loads up the screen driver, ANSI.SYS). If someone does not have this line, and they don't know what CONFIG.SYS is, it's impossible to tell them to put the line in using EDLIN!!! (well not impossible, but definitely risky: "ok, type EDLIN CONFIG.SYS. now type 'i'' 'return'. Now type capital D-I-S-P-L-A-Y-equalsign-..." and at that point I have to remember which directory ANSI.SYS is in...) John Kawakami kawakami@ocf.berkeley.edu ucbvax!ocf.berkeley.edu!kawakami Amateur crank! My Atari Macks!
dan@wet.UUCP (Daniel Tauber) (10/14/90)
In article <6025@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> keithr@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (U.D.M.) writes: >I have heard told of a new Mac called the Mac Classic. The >scheduled release date is Oct 15th. > >The reason I am mentioning it here is because of the price. The >Classic configured with 2Mb and a 40Mb hard drive is priced at $1500 >or there abouts. > I have heard that the low-end Mac Classic will not include a hard disk. With Mac hard disks costing $400 or so, that would bring the price up to $1900. Dan Tauber dan@wet wet!dan@cca.ucsf.edu
steve@thelake.mn.org (Steve Yelvington) (10/14/90)
[In article <7340003@hpfcso.HP.COM>,
rrd@hpfcso.HP.COM (Ray Depew) writes ... ]
> Most serious computer buyers will see the Mac Classic for what it is:
> it's the rest of Atari's old inventory, packaged in new cases (maybe?)
^^^^^^ I suppose you mean Apple's
> and spruced up a little. They're just trying to clean out the warehouse.
I think you're way off base.
Apple isn't cleaning out old inventory. They're setting up new production
lines to crank out hundreds of thousands of low-cost, low-price Macintoshes
in an effort to regain market share lost to PCs and clones. I don't know
precisely what the new machines will have (the announcement is Monday)
but advance reports suggest they'll have 16-megahertz CPUs. These are not
marked-down Mac 512s with extra memory. They're Macs for the masses.
They're Macs for Apple II owners. They're Macs for would-be Tandy/Blue
Chip/Amstrad/PS-1 buyers.
John Sculley has spoken freely and at length about the strategy. Apple is
taking lower profit margins in order to build market share and, in the long
run, save the company from becoming an also-ran. In the short run, the
Mac Classic strategy is going to hurt Apple's profits.
I personally would not be interested in one, but most first-time buyers
would have a hard time passing up the new, cheap Mac to buy an ST.
--
Steve Yelvington up at the lake in Minnesota
The easy way: steve@thelake.mn.org
The hard way: {plains,rutgers,apple,cray}!umn-cs!thelake!steve
emerson@gandalf.Berkeley.EDU (Emerson Mei) (10/14/90)
This message is empty.
plinio@turing.seas.ucla.edu (Plinio Barbeito/;093091;allsites) (10/14/90)
In article <6025@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> keithr@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (U.D.M.) writes: >The reason I am mentioning it here is because of the price. The >Classic configured with 2Mb and a 40Mb hard drive is priced at $1500 >or there abouts. That compares favorably with the present educational discount price I've seen for a Mac SE/30: $1849, and that's only for a machine with 1 Meg, a 1.4M floppy, but no keyboard, no HD. >Its going to make it awfully hard for the ST dealers to sell NEW >customers on the ST. If the customer is a student, I'd venture to guess that it's already darn near impossible considering that one could get a 1M Mac Plus for $499 (keyboard included)! Of course, any mac without a HD is useless, and even with a HD, the mac plus is no speed demon...but most of the people buying probably won't think to ask probing questions about the maximum transfer speed of the SCSI port, whether the design of the port is non-standard or brain-damaged, whether they can actually USE the machine without HD, etc. FYI, the price for the Mac SE with 2M, 40M HD, 1.44 drive, and 105 key keyboard totals up to $1608. Still uncharacteristically low for Apple -- they are probably going to phase these machines out, then make people pay a hefty 'upgrade' fee. >Now don't get me wrong. I really like my ST. I am just looking at >this from a marketing point of view and the additional problems this >COULD bring to the dwindling ST market and dealers. Don't get me wrong either, I wouldn't use one of those macs if for no other reason than the fact that the screen is too tiny and would give me a headache, or be frustrated with too few columns of text on the screen. On the other hand, what size screen comes with the Classic? I like the fact that true, alternate, third-party operating systems are "allowed" on the ST. Even *if* Apple's purportedly great System 7.0 comes out tomorrow, IMHO there's something inherently wrong with the idea that some other people always get to decide what O/S runs on the machine I paid for. (And don't mention A/UX as a choice, it's too buggy and slow, even on a IIcx) If the implications of this haven't hit home, consider the example that a computer company might make the first ROM set for a new computer purposely slower, so that when the time comes to upgrade, the marketing literature can claim some kind of speed improvement. If the possibility of writing your own operating system were available, then you (or a third party at least) would be able to see what speed the hardware is really capable of. As far as purchasing decisions, it's too soon to call. As far as whether it bodes well for Atari Corp...I just hope they can bring the TT out at a competitive price. Judging from the prices we've seen so far (in Europe), they're going to need to do a good bit of slashing. (Good news for prospective TT buyers?) --plinio Unrelated side note: I have been able to run gulam inside an mgr window by using the vt52 utility. A few problems, mainly that gulam eats all of the mouse input. However, the Alt-cursor key combinations can still move the mouse pointer.
dejesus@rex.cs.tulane.edu (Francisco Xavier Dejesus) (10/15/90)
In article <A2718242125@thelake.mn.org> steve@thelake.mn.org (Steve Yelvington) writes: > >Apple isn't cleaning out old inventory. They're setting up new production >lines to crank out hundreds of thousands of low-cost, low-price Macintoshes >in an effort to regain market share lost to PCs and clones. I don't know >precisely what the new machines will have (the announcement is Monday) >but advance reports suggest they'll have 16-megahertz CPUs. These are not >marked-down Mac 512s with extra memory. They're Macs for the masses. >They're Macs for Apple II owners. They're Macs for would-be Tandy/Blue >Chip/Amstrad/PS-1 buyers. Apple is hurting because of MS Windows 3.0. For the first time, Apple is seeking help from Japanese computer manufacturers... they are going to license someone to make a new Mac portable for them. I just finished reading the latest issue of MacWorld, which features a preview of all three new Macs, and for Apple, the prices are _low_! The Mac Classic is simply one model to replace the Mac Plus and SE... it's an 8MHz 68000. The other two are the Mac IIlc (low-cost color) and IIsi. The lc is a 16MHz 020 with built in 256 color video (16.7mil pallete), and has and expected street price of about $2000 (!), the si is a 20MHz 030, also with built in color video, and expected street price of about $3000. Both new Mac IIs include a built in sound digitizer, and they will probably replace the SE30 and the IIcx. These now low cost Macs, along with the $1500 price reduction on the IIci, are a bold move to regain market share by Apple. They will make good competition for similarly equipped 386/486 PC's (though the new NeXT machines might compete with them too, but those are more workstation-type computers). What does all this mean for Atari (as well as the Amiga)? They will be caught in the middle of a major price/performance war between Mac II's and PC clones. I don't expect the ST/STe/Mega (or similar Amiga models) to survive... Atari and Commodore had better concentrate on their 68030 computers, and Atari in particular should actually start _selling_ the TT instead of just announcing that it's "coming out soon"... -- ___ / _______________________________ - Francisco X DeJesus |- / \/ \\ ' / /\ dejesus@comus.cs.tulane.edu \\__________________________ / ak662@cleveland.freenet.edu ////////////////////////////
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (10/15/90)
In article <4536@rex.cs.tulane.edu> dejesus@rex.cs.tulane.edu (Francisco Xavier Dejesus) writes: >In article <A2718242125@thelake.mn.org> steve@thelake.mn.org (Steve Yelvington) writes: >> >>Apple isn't cleaning out old inventory. They're setting up new production >>lines to crank out hundreds of thousands of low-cost, low-price Macintoshes >>in an effort to regain market share lost to PCs and clones. I don't know >>precisely what the new machines will have (the announcement is Monday) >>but advance reports suggest they'll have 16-megahertz CPUs. These are not >>marked-down Mac 512s with extra memory. They're Macs for the masses. >>They're Macs for Apple II owners. They're Macs for would-be Tandy/Blue >>Chip/Amstrad/PS-1 buyers. I agree completely. If the strategy works, it will be VERY bad for Atari and Commodore. > > Apple is hurting because of MS Windows 3.0. For the first time, Apple is >seeking help from Japanese computer manufacturers... they are going to >license someone to make a new Mac portable for them. Windows 3.0 is nice (still a little kludgy, but I guess not any moreso than TOS), and I DO think it is eating into Mac AND Atari and Amiga sales. If Apple can take some of the price advantage (Macs already have the utility adavantage) away from PC clones running windows, perhaps the Mac will start to regain some of its market share that has been lost to PC clones. The outcome can only be negative for Atari. They are having trouble turning a profit at current margins. Can you imagine what their earnings will look like if they have to cut back on the margin to compete with Apple? I think I hear violins playing... > > I just finished reading the latest issue of MacWorld, which features >a preview of all three new Macs, and for Apple, the prices are _low_! >The Mac Classic is simply one model to replace the Mac Plus and SE... it's >an 8MHz 68000. The other two are the Mac IIlc (low-cost color) and IIsi. >The lc is a 16MHz 020 with built in 256 color video (16.7mil pallete), and >has and expected street price of about $2000 (!), the si is a 20MHz 030, >also with built in color video, and expected street price of about $3000. >Both new Mac IIs include a built in sound digitizer, and they will >probably replace the SE30 and the IIcx. Yep, I saw the article too. I was impressed. Macs aren't speed demons by any stretch of the word, but they are one of the easiest platforms to use and to teach relative beginners to use. At these prices it just doesn't make sense to buy a non-standard ST. Now, you can get a color 68020 Mac for the cost of a 68000 ST with equivalent memory and HD space offered in the new Macs. > These now low cost Macs, along with the $1500 price reduction on the >IIci, are a bold move to regain market share by Apple. They will make good >competition for similarly equipped 386/486 PC's (though the new NeXT machines >might compete with them too, but those are more workstation-type computers). I wasn't aware of a $1.5K price reduction for the ci. That makes it VERY attractive. YOu can buy a ci from stores in NYC for about $3000 right now. At $1500-2000, it would be a steal! Who cares if it pumps out 5% less drystones than an A3000 or TT (if they ever go on sale that is)? The benefits to owning a Mac outweigh that in my mind, particularly from an ease-of-use standpoint. > What does all this mean for Atari (as well as the Amiga)? They will be >caught in the middle of a major price/performance war between Mac II's and >PC clones. I don't expect the ST/STe/Mega (or similar Amiga models) to I don't think Atari or Commodore are in a position to fight in any kind of pricing war with Apple. They don't have the resources. Atari is practically on Food Stamps as it is. Commodore is a little better off than Atari, but also suffering from a cash-poor situation. >survive... Atari and Commodore had better concentrate on their 68030 >computers, and Atari in particular should actually start _selling_ the TT >instead of just announcing that it's "coming out soon"... Well, as is often the case in the high-tech business, the early-bird gets the worm. Atari is VERY late this time and may end up starving before the next worm pops his head above the soil. > ___ / _______________________________ - Francisco X DeJesus > |- / \/ \\ > ' / /\ dejesus@comus.cs.tulane.edu \\__________________________ > / ak662@cleveland.freenet.edu //////////////////////////// Cordially, Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |D{r det finns en |l, finns cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |det en plan! (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null | ------------------------------+---------------------------
manes@vger.nsu.edu (10/16/90)
In article <1990Oct11.205554.14111@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu>, cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: > That was no rumour. Several reputable magazines have printed these > prices. The Mac classic is priced in such a matter that I can't > imagine anyone in that price range buying an Amiga or an Atari. Huh? Pardon me? Are you saying that the only real win that the Amiga or the ST has is its price? Come on. Have you ever tried to do desktop video on a Mac? Pleeeze... > > Also, the Mac IIsi (68030@20mhz) will sell for less than $4000. It > is rumoured to come with 2 megs RAM, 80 megs HD and a color monitor > board built in. You need only supply a monitor. Why is this exciting? It is about time that Apple produced something that is "competitive". > > We'll see for sure soon. The OFFICIAL announcement is on Oct 15. > > BTW, these are LIST prices. As we all know, Apple offers big discounts > for students (unlike Atari) so you can expect the student prices to > be MUCH better. I never felt that the Apple Education program was all the exciting, especially in recent years. Perhaps you should look at Commodore's educational prices. One DAY the world will learn that what you pay for a computer has nothing to do with what they will do. No matter how many times Apple tells you different. > > Cheers, > > Chris > ------------------------------+--------------------------- > Chris Mauritz |D{r det finns en |l, finns > cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |det en plan! > (c)All rights reserved. | > Send flames to /dev/null | > ------------------------------+--------------------------- -mark= +--------+ ================================================== | \/ | Mark D. Manes "Mr. AmigaVision" | /\ \/ | manes@vger.nsu.edu | / | (804) 683-2532 "Make up your own mind! - AMIGA" +--------+ ================================================== I am going to borrow a quote from a Commodore Engineer.... "If you insist on paying $10,000 for 68030 technology, may we humbly suggest that you buy 3 Amiga 3000s"
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (10/16/90)
In article <4b5T8dC00Vor8OekRA@andrew.cmu.edu> jk44+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Knight) writes: >Apple may offer "big" discounts to students, but Apple will have to >reduce the s*it out of its prices in order to compete with Atari or >Amiga. With my student discount, a 1Meg, 1 disk drive SE costs about >$1500. My 1040STe and mono monitor kick some serious ass over that Mac >configuration. I don't know what the TT will cost, so I can't really >compare it to the higher end Macs, but I think (hope...) it will be >competitive. Well, the Mac Classic is the equivalent of the system you describe above. It will sell to students for about $1000. Add in another $1000-1500 or so and you can have a color 68030 system with 2 meg RAM, HD, and built-in color. You just have to supply a monitor (like the Mac IIci). The IIci is also supposed to be discounted as well. > >I'll wait and see what Apple gets out the door for a low end system (and >how *low* end, and at what prices). Apple has been talking for a long They're out! Just check out the 2 page ad in today's NY Times. They have been talking, but now they're delivering! >yet. I kind'a hope they *do* get a low end system out the door at really >competitive prices since that would tend to drive A3000 and TT prices >more into my range :-). Yes, that would make sense. However, the quesiton you have to ask yourself is this: "Can companies like Atari and Commodore survive on even lower margins?" They are in no position to have a protracted pricing war with a company like Apple. >Jack Knight >ARPA: jk44@andrew.cmu.edu Cordially, Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |D{r det finns en |l, finns cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |det en plan! (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null | ------------------------------+---------------------------
hyc@math.lsa.umich.edu (Howard Chu) (10/16/90)
In article <1990Oct15.212324.23704@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: %In article <4b5T8dC00Vor8OekRA@andrew.cmu.edu> jk44+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Knight) writes: %>Apple may offer "big" discounts to students, but Apple will have to %>reduce the s*it out of its prices in order to compete with Atari or %>Amiga. With my student discount, a 1Meg, 1 disk drive SE costs about %>$1500. My 1040STe and mono monitor kick some serious ass over that Mac %>configuration. I don't know what the TT will cost, so I can't really %>compare it to the higher end Macs, but I think (hope...) it will be %>competitive. %Well, the Mac Classic is the equivalent of the system you describe %above. It will sell to students for about $1000. Add in another %$1000-1500 or so and you can have a color 68030 system with 2 meg RAM, %HD, and built-in color. You just have to supply a monitor (like the %Mac IIci). The IIci is also supposed to be discounted as well. Well... The Mac Classic doesn't give you color, stereo PCM sound, DMA, analog and digital controller inputs, etc... It really is just a repackaged SE, without the processor slot. It's hard to call that an equivalent machine, no matter how you look at it. It's an SE with expandability and upgradability removed from the design. It's a late model Mac+. The original doorstop, redone for 1990. Feh. The other two (MacToo!) machines look a little more reasonable. I wonder what's holding the TT up, the market for cheap '030 machines is about to get saturated, I think... Might as well skip this stage and hop onto the '040 bandwagon. (Heh - then they'll have an industry-accepted excuse for "vaporware" ... }-) -- -- Howard Chu @ University of Michigan one million data bits stored on a chip, one million bits per chip if one of those data bits happens to flip, one million data bits stored on the chip...
gt1448b@prism.gatech.EDU (David P. Forrai) (10/16/90)
In article <1990Oct15.212324.23704@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: > ... However, the quesiton you have to ask >yourself is this: "Can companies like Atari and Commodore survive on >even lower margins?" They are in no position to have a protracted >pricing war with a company like Apple. I hardly think the new Mac is targeted to put Atari or Commodore out of business. I can't see Apple, who has been enjoying those big profits all these years, suddenly cutting profits to dominate the low end market. I'm sure these new Macs will contain enough deficiencies to keep customers buying the higher profit Macs. -- David P. Forrai uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt1448b Internet: gt1448b@prism.gatech.edu
rrd@hpfcso.HP.COM (Ray Depew) (10/16/90)
>> Most serious computer buyers will see the Mac Classic for what it is: >> it's the rest of Atari's old inventory, packaged in new cases (maybe?) ^^^^^^ I suppose you mean Apple's >> and spruced up a little. They're just trying to clean out the warehouse. > I think you're way off base. > Apple isn't cleaning out old inventory. They're setting up new production > lines... The next time I shoot off my mouth, I'm going to make sure my foot isn't in the line of fire... Well, I've seen inventory dumping before, and I thought I recognized it this time. Guess I was wrong. At any rate, you should have seen the look of stark terror on my wife's face when I told her about the new, low-cost Macs! (Good thing I haven't told her about the pizza-NeXt's. :-) Regards Ray "no, honey, I'm not going to buy one" Depew HP Colorado IC Division rrd@hpfitst1.hp.com "... yet" ----------
gl8f@astsun7.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (10/17/90)
In article <1990Oct16.135207.19939@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >I made an error in the pricing. [ More Macintosh prices deleted ] >How can Atari compete with this? Wait and see. Then you'll know. Chris, this is comp.sys.atari.st, not comp.sys.atari.st.chris.talking.about. Macintoshes. If you want to talk about Macintoshes, please read and post to comp.sys.mac. -- "Restraint, hell. I'm just too fucking busy." -- Bill Wisner
paul@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Paul Siu) (10/17/90)
In article <6025@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> keithr@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (U.D.M.) writes: >I have heard told of a new Mac called the Mac Classic. The >scheduled release date is Oct 15th. > >The reason I am mentioning it here is because of the price. The >Classic configured with 2Mb and a 40Mb hard drive is priced at $1500 >or there abouts. Well, here are the specs from PC Week (Oct 15) for Macintosh Classic: - 8MHZ 68000 cpu - 512 x 342 Monochrome monitor (1-bit) - Expandable to 4 Meg - One 1.44 Meg Super Drive - SCSI port, Serial ports, ADB ports, and the other usual Macintosh ports - Standard Keyboard (not extended keyboard) - No expansion slots of any kind Prices: 1M version with 1 Super drive is $999 Prices: 2M with a 40 Meg hard drive is $1499 The thing looks like a reborn version of the Mac Plus, in fact it replaces Mac Plus, and the SE. It does however run at SE speed instead of a plus, so it is on a par with the Spectre. Apple has two other machine out, but none are near Atari's price range.
stephen@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Steve Whitney) (10/17/90)
In article <1990Oct16.135207.19939@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >How can Atari compete with this? Sculley stated yesterday that Apple is >willing to take a margin hit now to build up market share for the future >(something Atari hasn't been able to do even with lower prices). > Perhaps if they advertized so that people knew the computer existed... I was telling the computer science class that I TA about a program I wrote for the ST today. No one chuckled, but I didn't see any looks of recognition when I mentioned the computer's name. Atari might have a chance _right now_ (no later) at breaking into the educational market here at UCLA. Thee are a lot of people using yucky IBMs to do their coursework and word processing. Also, UCLA doesn't have the thousands of public access Macs that Stanford had. Poeple don't have to get a Mac so that they can print their stuff for free here. No one's going to pay retail when they can get almost any otehr machine (including IBM, Mac, Amiga) for a discount. Even if the price were competetive, they would perceive the discounted machines as a better value. Atari claims to have some nifty stuff for Comdex (_busines_ show). We'll know in about a month, I guess. >------------------------------+--------------------------- >Chris Mauritz |D{r det finns en |l, finns >cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |det en plan! >(c)All rights reserved. | >Send flames to /dev/null | >------------------------------+--------------------------- -- Steve Whitney "It's never _really_ the last minute" (())_-_(()) UCLA Comp. Sci. Grad. Student | (* *) | Internet: stephen@cs.ucla.edu UCLA Bruin--> { \_@_/ } GEnie: S.WHITNEY `-----'
manes@vger.nsu.edu (10/17/90)
In article <1990Oct16.143019.878@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu>, cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: > In article <64.2719df59@vger.nsu.edu> manes@vger.nsu.edu writes: >>In article <1990Oct11.205554.14111@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu>, cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >>> That was no rumour. Several reputable magazines have printed these >>> prices. The Mac classic is priced in such a matter that I can't >>> imagine anyone in that price range buying an Amiga or an Atari. >> >>Huh? >> >>Pardon me? Are you saying that the only real win that the Amiga or >>the ST has is its price? Come on. Have you ever tried to do >>desktop video on a Mac? Pleeeze... > > Yes, that is what I'm saying. Who cares about desktop video. That is a Who cares about spreadsheets and word processors? We have been able to do both since the very beginning. You are not making your point. > very small niche market. The average person is going to use their > computer for wordprocessing and spreadsheets and things of this nature. > Show me one ST or Amiga spreadsheet that comes close to comparing > with Excel. Show me one drawing program as easy to use as MacDraw II. > Show me some DTP programs (OK Calamus is good) that come close to > putting on a laserprinter what is on the monitor. There are a few > ISOLATED software packages for the Amiga and the ST which are indeed > great, but the vast majority are not nearly as polished ans useful > as Mac counterparts. You can give me all the computer.religion > arguments you want, but the ease of use and quality of use aspects > of a computer play a more important role in my mind. So now you are saying that the "productivity" software that is available is really the only reason people want to buy computers? I will certainly grant that the Amiga community does not have anything of the caliber of Excel. However the Mac has nothing like Deluxe Paint III, nor 3d Professional, etc. etc. My point is that you can't simply say that Amiga and ST are about to die because the great lord of Apple has introduced low cost machines. You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The more appropriate comment would be that Commodore and Atari will have to work a bit harder in pushing their wares. That is it. Commodore and Atari have the advantage of knowing the market they are selling to. Apple knows little of this, and will find things different. > > Maybe they weren't competetive because they didn't have to be to sell > their product. Now that the market is reaching saturation, they > are cutting their margins. No big surprise there. Why sell a > product for $10 when people are willing to pay $20? Did not have to sell their product? Come on. The reason that apple introduced these machines was to recapture the marketshare that was lost by the clones, Amigas and the ST. Something about "value" for the dollar comes to mind. Personally I think Apple still has some very important lessons to learn, about what consumers want in a computer. > > Chris > > > > > ------------------------------+--------------------------- > Chris Mauritz |D{r det finns en |l, finns > cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |det en plan! > (c)All rights reserved. | > Send flames to /dev/null | > ------------------------------+--------------------------- -mark= +--------+ ================================================== | \/ | Mark D. Manes "Mr. AmigaVision" | /\ \/ | manes@vger.nsu.edu | / | (804) 683-2532 "Make up your own mind! - AMIGA" +--------+ ==================================================
rrd@hpfcso.HP.COM (Ray Depew) (10/17/90)
Copied from comp.sys.brand.x: > From: ragg0270@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard Alan Gerber) > Date: Mon, 15 Oct 1990 13:23:13 GMT > Date-Received: Tue, 16 Oct 1990 19:12:15 GMT > Subject: Re: not good news > Newsgroups: comp.sys.xxxxxxxxxx > > OK. Here's what I saw on the news wire: > > Mac Classic $999. 9-in BW screen. 68000 processor. > Mac LC $3,098. 68020 processor. 2 Meg RAM. Hard Disk. Color capabilities. > Mac IIsi. $3,769. 68030 processor. 2 Meg RAM. 80 Meg HD. > > Not a very complete discription, but that's all the story said. Let the comments fly. I ain't gittin' into it this time! Ray -----------
saj@chinet.chi.il.us (Stephen Jacobs) (10/17/90)
In article <1990Oct15.212324.23704@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >In article <4b5T8dC00Vor8OekRA@andrew.cmu.edu> jk44+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Knight) writes: > >>yet. I kind'a hope they *do* get a low end system out the door at really >>competitive prices since that would tend to drive A3000 and TT prices >>more into my range :-). > >Yes, that would make sense. However, the quesiton you have to ask >yourself is this: "Can companies like Atari and Commodore survive on >even lower margins?" They are in no position to have a protracted >pricing war with a company like Apple. Last time I looked, Apple was in no shape to wage a serious price war them- selves. Plenty of magazines carry 'Can Apple Survive?' stories. They carry relatively high overhead, and their advertising needs pretty substantial margins to pay for it too. If you look at the probable prices to manufacture products, all 3 companies could cut prices a fair bit before it started to look like selling the machines was a bad proposition. A serious price war would delay product improvements, though. Steve J.
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (10/17/90)
In article <1990Oct16.213742.1148@chinet.chi.il.us> saj@chinet.chi.il.us (Stephen Jacobs) writes: >In article <1990Oct15.212324.23704@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >>In article <4b5T8dC00Vor8OekRA@andrew.cmu.edu> jk44+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Knight) writes: >> >>>yet. I kind'a hope they *do* get a low end system out the door at really >>>competitive prices since that would tend to drive A3000 and TT prices >>>more into my range :-). >> >>Yes, that would make sense. However, the quesiton you have to ask >>yourself is this: "Can companies like Atari and Commodore survive on >>even lower margins?" They are in no position to have a protracted >>pricing war with a company like Apple. > >Last time I looked, Apple was in no shape to wage a serious price war them- >selves. Plenty of magazines carry 'Can Apple Survive?' stories. They carry >relatively high overhead, and their advertising needs pretty substantial >margins to pay for it too. If you look at the probable prices to manufacture >products, all 3 companies could cut prices a fair bit before it started to look >like selling the machines was a bad proposition. A serious price war would >delay product improvements, though. Ah, but it is far easier to trim the fat off a big pig than a skinny squirrel. Atari has already trimmed a significant amount of fat. Its margins are already low and its earnings have suffered. Apple could probably cut significant amounts from its operations costs if it finds that it has to. Anyone writing "Can Apple survive?" type articles is just plain foolish. > Steve J. Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |D{r det finns en |l, finns cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |det en plan! (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null | ------------------------------+---------------------------
newton@ils.nwu.edu (David Newton) (10/18/90)
Lindahl and Mauritz: Why don't you go to alt.flame where you can aggravate each other yo your little heart's desires... Personally, I agree with Mauritz that the new Macs do affect Atariland in a big way--Atari really doesn't need any low-priced competition right now, they're hurting badly enough for US support. the new Macs will undoubtedly also get to Europe (cost more, but they'll be there) and that will further split the European market... Anyway... enough. -- David L. Newton | Work: (708) 491-4791 | VR is great!! I died in one- ILS, Room 327 | Home: (708) 332-2321 | (with virtual insurance, of 1890 Maple St. |------------------------| course) collected it, and am Evanston, IL 60201 | "Purveyors of fine AI" | now virtually happy. I think.
gl8f@astsun8.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (10/20/90)
In article <1270@acf5.NYU.EDU> mitsolid@acf5.NYU.EDU (Thanasis Mitsolides) writes: >> Again, only the >> market will dictate what happens to Atari and Amiga and Apple. > >Indeed. >What I don't understand is why you are so much against speculation. I don't have anything against informed speculation. However, most of the speculation here is more along the lines of computer wars: "why would anyone buy the pathetic little Atari when the Macs serve anyone's needs better". Then the reply comes back "but your needs are different from mine", etc. The argument just goes in a circle and goes nowhere. It's about as useful as discussing the relative merits of the Amiga and the ST. I think most of the people here decided a long time ago that that discussion was useless. Even well-informed comparisons of the ST and Amiga do nothing but fan the flame war. Let's hope the war over ST/Mac/NeXT features and prices goes the same way. -- "Restraint, hell. I'm just too fucking busy." -- Bill Wisner
dlk0ms9s@umiami.ir.miami.edu (Mark Santora) (11/15/90)
In article <4b5T8dC00Vor8OekRA@andrew.cmu.edu>, jk44+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Knight) writes: > Apple may offer "big" discounts to students, but Apple will have to > reduce the s*it out of its prices in order to compete with Atari or > Amiga. With my student discount, a 1Meg, 1 disk drive SE costs about > $1500. My 1040STe and mono monitor kick some serious ass over that Mac > configuration. I don't know what the TT will cost, so I can't really > compare it to the higher end Macs, but I think (hope...) it will be > competitive. > > I'll wait and see what Apple gets out the door for a low end system (and > how *low* end, and at what prices). Apple has been talking for a long > time about getting a low end system out the door and hasn't delivered > yet. I kind'a hope they *do* get a low end system out the door at really > competitive prices since that would tend to drive A3000 and TT prices > more into my range :-). > > Jack Knight > ARPA: jk44@andrew.cmu.edu I heard that Atari offers Student discounts as well. I don't know much about it as I bought my MEGA well over 2 and a half years ago. What Atari should do if it wants to attempt to get into schools with the ST/E/STacy/TT is hit all the big MUSIC schools. Donate a few machines to the campus and then put up booths at the computer forums on campus to sell them. Against the Mac and IBM they should easily win, especially with the GCR and PC Speed out there. Think how well Atari could do with a small push like this! Mark Santora DLK0MS9S @ UMiami
bgrave@ub.d.umn.edu (Brian Grave) (11/16/90)
John Knight (jk44+@andrew.cmu.edu) writes: > Apple may offer "big" discounts to students, but Apple will have to > reduce the s*it out of its prices in order to compete with Atari or > Amiga. With my student discount, a 1Meg, 1 disk drive SE costs about > $1500. My 1040STe and mono monitor kick some serious ass over that Mac > > Jack Knight > ARPA: jk44@andrew.cmu.edu The last time I checked in the U of M bookstore I could get a MacClassic with 1 meg Ram and an internal disk drive (high density) for $750. A MacClassic with 2 meg of RAM and 1 internal high density drive and a 40 meg internal hard disk was only $1150. This included the keyboard and the usual built in mono monitor. I'm not sure where you go to school but they sure are taking you to the cleaners. -- Brian Grave bgrave@ub.d.umn.edu I'm not stupid, I'm not expendable, and I'M NOT GOING!
Xorg@cup.portal.com (Peter Ted Szymonik) (11/23/90)
Talon Technologies - the people who bring us SuperCharger from England, recently picked up ATone and PC Speed distribution in the U.S. and they are rumored to be readying a machine that boots a simple desktop asking you whethe you want to boot into ST, MAC, or MS-DOS mode - reportedly they've done their homework and have a few big orders from a couple of school systems in hand for this "all in one" box. Peter Szymonik xorg@cup.portal.com
n160ao@tamuts.tamu.edu (Mark Lehmann) (11/23/90)
In article <36170@cup.portal.com> Xorg@cup.portal.com (Peter Ted Szymonik) writes: >Talon Technologies - the people who bring us SuperCharger from England, >recently picked up ATone and PC Speed distribution in the U.S. and they are >rumored to be readying a machine that boots a simple desktop asking you whethe >you want to boot into ST, MAC, or MS-DOS mode - reportedly they've done their >homework and have a few big orders from a couple of school systems in hand >for this "all in one" box. I just purchased PC-Speed. However, I use just plain Super Boot to boot into any ST program or DOS program. For DOS I just tell superboot to boot the PC_SPEED.PRG program, and then make the AUTOEXEC.BAT file on my DOS partition an "OTHER" file in SuperBoot. So I have several customized AUTOEXEC.BAT files in a DOS directory on the DOS partition. The last thing each customized AUTOEXEC.BAT file called is the program that I want to start executing in DOS. The $15 registration fee is probably much less expensive than the Talon Technologies program. So for those less classy and less well off people like me SuperBoot remains a good working solution in lue of a probably fully featured classy Talon program. Mark Lehmann tamuts.tamu.edu!n160ao
gcarter@globey.cs.wisc.edu (Gregory Carter) (11/27/90)
Hello everyone, looks like I LOSE and YOU GAIN, I have a few 1040STe's, yes thats color, stereo, simm upgradeable for a going price of: $575 - 25 dollar loss! Please help me get rid of these beaste's. I made a major boobo when I got these in the mail so, once they are gone, they are GONE! I'll even throw in a box of free disks, ship TO YOU anywhere in the USA C.O.D....I'll even pay shipping! I never opened the boxes! THEY ARE NEW as new can get. --Gregory -BOzo the clown