scoile@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Steve Coile) (01/07/91)
Regarding the disk-based TOS, why not put TOS on cartridge??? For that matter, why not just base all operating systems in cartridge? Think about the advantages!! Upgrades would be a simple matter of bringing the old cart in and exchanging it for the new (plus a small fee I suppose). Changing operating systems would just be a matter of changing cartridges. A cartridge based OS wouldn't take up an RAM (as would a disk based), nor would it take any time to load (again, as would a disk based OS). From what I understand, carts can hold a LOT. The Lynx cards (for those who have seen them) hold upwards of 2 MEG!!!!!! If they can hold that much, just think how much of an OS you could put in one cartridge!!! By way of price, the physical aspect of the cart doesn't cost THAT much (carts for most game machines cost between $30 and $40, and SOME of that has to be for the software). Can anyone tell me why this ISN'T a good idea??? -Steve "Stevers!" Coile SCOILE@GMUVAX.BITNET scoile@gmuvax2.gmu.edu
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (01/07/91)
In article <3203@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> scoile@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Steve Coile) writes: > > Regarding the disk-based TOS, why not put TOS on cartridge??? For >that matter, why not just base all operating systems in cartridge? >Think about the advantages!! Upgrades would be a simple matter of >bringing the old cart in and exchanging it for the new (plus a small fee >I suppose). Changing operating systems would just be a matter of >changing cartridges. A cartridge based OS wouldn't take up an RAM (as >would a disk based), nor would it take any time to load (again, as would >a disk based OS). From what I understand, carts can hold a LOT. The >Lynx cards (for those who have seen them) hold upwards of 2 MEG!!!!!! >If they can hold that much, just think how much of an OS you could put >in one cartridge!!! By way of price, the physical aspect of the cart >doesn't cost THAT much (carts for most game machines cost between $30 >and $40, and SOME of that has to be for the software). Can anyone tell >me why this ISN'T a good idea??? I'm not sure, but I seem to remember that the cartidge port could only address 128K. (I could very well be mistaken, I'm not really a techie.) As for the OS updates, I think the best policy I've seen so far is at Apple. You can anonymous FTP over to Apple.Com and get the latest version. Now THAT'S what I call service. > >-Steve "Stevers!" Coile SCOILE@GMUVAX.BITNET scoile@gmuvax2.gmu.edu Cheers, Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |D{r det finns en |l, finns cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |det en plan! (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null | ------------------------------+---------------------------
fortinp@bwdls56.bnr.ca (Pierre Fortin) (01/07/91)
In article <3203@gmuvax2.gmu.edu>, scoile@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Steve Coile) writes: > > Regarding the disk-based TOS, why not put TOS on cartridge??? For [stuff deleted] > and $40, and SOME of that has to be for the software). > Can anyone tell me why this ISN'T a good idea??? > Well, for starters: The current OS (1.4) fits in 192K of ROM, *BUT* there is only 128K available on the cart port. If you can figure how to squeeze the OS into that little cart... :^) Pierre Fortin Bell-Northern Research I know, my postings are Internet Systems P.O.Box 3511, Stn C terse and humourless. So? (613)763-2598 Ottawa, Ontario RIP: aptly named protocol fortinp@bnr.ca Canada K1Y 4H7 AppleTalk: Adam&Eve's design
jhenders@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca (John Henders) (01/08/91)
In <1991Jan7.005252.10937@bwdls61.bnr.ca>, Pierre Fortin writes: >Well, for starters: The current OS (1.4) fits in 192K of ROM, *BUT* there >is only 128K available on the cart port. If you can figure how to squeeze >the OS into that little cart... :^) How about packing the part that is loaded into memory and unpacking on boot-up? I think ST Internals said there were several tricky ways to get 512k out of the cartridge port. Come to think of it, wasn't there a company that sold 4 meg ram drives that went into the cartridge port. Someone posting here a few months ago had one. > >Pierre Fortin Bell-Northern Research I know, my postings are >Internet Systems P.O.Box 3511, Stn C terse and humourless. So? >(613)763-2598 Ottawa, Ontario RIP: aptly named protocol >fortinp@bnr.ca Canada K1Y 4H7 AppleTalk: Adam&Eve's design -- John Henders jhenders@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca Vancouver,B.C. or jhenders@wimsey.bc.ca or ubc.cs!van-bc!jonh!jhenders
kenc@vaxb.acs.unt.edu (01/08/91)
In article <1991Jan8.003736.13171@cs.olemiss.edu>, tony@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Tony Reynolds) writes: > In article <1991Jan7.005252.10937@bwdls61.bnr.ca> fortinp@bwdls56.bnr.ca (Pierre Fortin) writes: > >>Well, for starters: The current OS (1.4) fits in 192K of ROM, *BUT* there >>is only 128K available on the cart port. If you can figure how to squeeze >>the OS into that little cart... :^) >> > > Put a kernel OS with RAM jump-tables on the internal ROMS. > Add 128K of updates to the cartridge port. > > Only problems are: What do you decide to put on the cart? > When do you release a new internal ROM? Tony, Though I myself REALLY like this idea, (ala Macintosh), it goes back to bringing up the subject of (*yikes*) viruses. It WOULD however, provide easy updating, by simply putting out a new 'system' disk, (again, ala Macintosh). Atari must have had some valid reasons not to do this, but I can't think of any. Since they started out in one direction, it seems that they are stuck going in that replace-the-complete-ROM-set direction, though It's not NEARLY as cost effective, or easy to implement. Before anyone starts arguing about speed considerations, let me say that I do program development on the Macintosh, (with a slower hard drive interface), and the delay in rebooting is not all that bad, especially considering programs like Pinhead for the ST. Also, if you're not in an environment that causes frequent reboots, the reboot speed of loading in such a RAM-based OS would be negligible. Atari people: I know you're tired of seeing this type of message, but CAN you pass word to the people that make those type of R & D decisions to at least CONSIDER something like this?
tony@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Tony Reynolds) (01/08/91)
In article <1991Jan7.005252.10937@bwdls61.bnr.ca> fortinp@bwdls56.bnr.ca (Pierre Fortin) writes: >Well, for starters: The current OS (1.4) fits in 192K of ROM, *BUT* there >is only 128K available on the cart port. If you can figure how to squeeze >the OS into that little cart... :^) > Put a kernel OS with RAM jump-tables on the internal ROMS. Add 128K of updates to the cartridge port. Only problems are: What do you decide to put on the cart? When do you release a new internal ROM? +=/----\=+ Get up, get,get down \ Tony Reynolds |/ Byte \| I.B.M. is joking your \ tony@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu |\ Boys /| town. \ /usr/games/fortune: +=\----/=+ <<Appearing NetWide>> \If I had any humility, I'd be perfect. Starring MC 68000, Tony RISC, and V.G.A.\ --Ted Turner
Bryan_Jones_Woodworth@cup.portal.com (01/08/91)
> Can anyone tell me why this ISN'T a good idea???
Regarding "Why not put TOS on carts?"
Don't other programs use the cartridge port? Like Spectre GCR?? Magic
Sac, whatever? Plus digitizing tools like Computereyes?
well. how do you use TOS if it is on cart-only, and you need the cart slot
for something else??
Bryan_Jones_Woodworth@cup.portal.comsytang@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Shoou-yu tang) (01/08/91)
The ST cart. port has only either 128KB or 256KB ( forget exactly which one, but it's not infinite) space. And TOS is already larger than 128KB ( 6 * 32KB = 192KB). Plus I want to be able to use the Spectre which is connected to Cart. port, and there is a few MIDI and music stuff is using cart. port. Just my 2 cents. Tang sytang@lamar.colostate.edu
hyc@math.lsa.umich.edu (Howard Chu) (01/09/91)
In article <A0ayw678@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca> jhenders@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca writes: >In <1991Jan7.005252.10937@bwdls61.bnr.ca>, Pierre Fortin writes: >>Well, for starters: The current OS (1.4) fits in 192K of ROM, *BUT* there >>is only 128K available on the cart port. If you can figure how to squeeze >>the OS into that little cart... :^) > How about packing the part that is loaded into memory and unpacking >on boot-up? I think ST Internals said there were several tricky ways >to get 512k out of the cartridge port. > Come to think of it, wasn't there a company that sold 4 meg ram >drives that went into the cartridge port. Someone posting here a few >months ago had one. Yep, I have a 4 Meg Ultradisk from Alpha Systems. Alpha Systems doesn't make these any more, nor do they seem to be supporting them with new software. It's a pity, because this thing is really handy. Plugs into the cartridge port, has its own NiCd battery backup and an external power supply - completely non-volatile reset-survivable RAMdisk. My gripes - the autoboot code stopped working with TOS 1.4, and it doesn't seem to work on my STe - boot-up says it only has 32K of RAM installed. (!!!) Apparently when the ST is powered up the cartridge draws power from the ST and the STe isn't feeding enough current out the cartridge port to power all 4Meg of RAMs in the cart. Big drag. But it *is* a nice fast system. Writes are somewhat slow because of the way that's fudged, but for reads you bank-switch in 64K at a time. No transfer delays to speak of - literally lightning fast access. I wish they would reconsider and resurrect this product, or something similar. Maybe something with larger capacity hanging off the DMA port, so Spectre users could use it as well. It'd be slower, but more flexible. RAM is cheap enough now, I could go for a 16 meg battery-backed DMA port RAMdisk/cache. -- -- Howard Chu @ University of Michigan Flame all you want - we'll take more.
jmack@b11.ingr.com (Cery McCormick) (01/09/91)
In article <A0ayw678@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca>, jhenders@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca (John Henders) writes: > > How about packing the part that is loaded into memory and unpacking > on boot-up? I think ST Internals said there were several tricky ways > to get 512k out of the cartridge port. > I have a 1meg cartridge RAM disk. You could put almost any amount of memory on a cartridge. You are elimited only by the cost. The problem doing this is, that you need a special software driver to access it. With anything 128k or less, the Atari can access the memory (ROM) as if it were internal ROM. To put more than 128k ROM on the port, you would have to have SOME code in internal ROM that knew how to read the cartridge port.