jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (12/07/90)
In article <1990Dec4.123906.8082@cbnewsh.att.com>, wolf@cbnewsh.att.com (thomas.wolf) writes: > From article <1990Dec3.200650.25435@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu>, by cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz): >> >> >> Realy??? How much? >> >> Just to piss glh off...I saw a demo of the new NextStation today. Someone >> earlier mentioned that the windowing system was very slow. That doesn't >> seem to be a problem. Seems that when you throw a 25mhz 68040 at the GUI, >> it seems fine. I didn't notice any slowness. However, the machine wasn't >> running THAT many tasks at the time either. The educational pricing makes >> the thing so cheap that you could throw in the NeXt 400dpi laser printer >> too and have a very nice unix system with scads of included software at ~$4500. >> > Just to continue this non-ST discussion.... > Please explain your $4500 price. Someone posted the NextStation educational > prices a couple days ago. I believe a usable system came in around $5000 > for mono and $6500 for color - and that is without the 400 dpi printer you > mention. > Well, you can get a NeXTStation with: Megapixel 4-grayshade monitor, 17 inch, about 1200x850 pixels 8MB RAM, 105MB HD, 68040, DSP, ethernet, SCSI II, etc. etc. Lots of good software. For about $3200 educational in most universities in the U.S. An additional HD is recommended, though. If TT's educ. price would be about $3000 (highly possible), I could see no reason to get one over the NeXTStation (I wouldn't get Amiga3000UX either). So that's why I will get a NeXTStation. I now have an ST and I have had it for about 5 years... But I don't have to stick with Atari anymore. Jouni
azwrkshp@watserv1.waterloo.edu (Karl Rueb) (12/08/90)
In article <4169.275eb314@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >In article <1990Dec4.123906.8082@cbnewsh.att.com>, wolf@cbnewsh.att.com (thomas.wolf) writes: Some deleted lines >Well, you can get a NeXTStation with: >Megapixel 4-grayshade monitor, 17 inch, about 1200x850 pixels >8MB RAM, 105MB HD, 68040, DSP, ethernet, SCSI II, etc. etc. >Lots of good software. > >For about $3200 educational in most universities in the U.S. > >An additional HD is recommended, though. > >If TT's educ. price would be about $3000 (highly possible), I could see >no reason to get one over the NeXTStation (I wouldn't get Amiga3000UX either). >So that's why I will get a NeXTStation. I now have an ST and I have had >it for about 5 years... But I don't have to stick with Atari anymore. > > Jouni Every body how talks about the Next being so CHEAP (I mean cheap, not inexpensive) are forgetting that the Stations cannot be ungraded to colour, Software is outrageously expensive (>$500 for the cheapest), The 360 meg hard disk increases the cost by $1500 CANADIAN, etc.... Not to mention that the NeXT system is slow. Its the old Apple system problem plus Postscript display slowdown. Just talk a look at their flight simulator. Sorry, I just had to say that. Karl Rueb University of Waterloo Grad. student Systems Design Engineering Canada azwrkshp@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (12/08/90)
In article <4169.275eb314@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >>> Realy??? How much? >>> >>> Just to piss glh off...I saw a demo of the new NextStation today. Someone >>> earlier mentioned that the windowing system was very slow. That doesn't >>> seem to be a problem. Seems that when you throw a 25mhz 68040 at the GUI, >>> it seems fine. I didn't notice any slowness. However, the machine wasn't >>> running THAT many tasks at the time either. The educational pricing makes >>> the thing so cheap that you could throw in the NeXt 400dpi laser printer >>> too and have a very nice unix system with scads of included software at ~$4500. >>> >> Just to continue this non-ST discussion.... >> Please explain your $4500 price. Someone posted the NextStation educational >> prices a couple days ago. I believe a usable system came in around $5000 >> for mono and $6500 for color - and that is without the 400 dpi printer you >> mention. >> > >Well, you can get a NeXTStation with: >Megapixel 4-grayshade monitor, 17 inch, about 1200x850 pixels >8MB RAM, 105MB HD, 68040, DSP, ethernet, SCSI II, etc. etc. >Lots of good software. > >For about $3200 educational in most universities in the U.S. I believe the educational price for the NeXT laser printer is ~$1000-1500 (I lost the price sheet). So maybe my original posting was a few hundred dollars high, but I suspect $4500 for a system as noted above plus the 400dpi laser is pretty close. What are Atari laser printers selling for these days? I haven't seen one in ages, though I have seen the toner cartridges for sale. Did Atari ever come up with a workable way to print postscript files on it? >An additional HD is recommended, though. Yep, 100 megs is on the skimpy side for a unix box. I would think you'd need more like 300 megs to have a nice liveable environment. >If TT's educ. price would be about $3000 (highly possible), I could see As far as I know, there is NO educational discount program at Atari. >no reason to get one over the NeXTStation (I wouldn't get Amiga3000UX either). >So that's why I will get a NeXTStation. I now have an ST and I have had >it for about 5 years... But I don't have to stick with Atari anymore. Yep, for a unix box, the NeXT will be tough to beat at this price. > > Jouni Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |D{r det finns en |l, finns cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |det en plan! (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null | ------------------------------+---------------------------
iho@cac.washington.edu (Il Oh) (12/08/90)
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >>So that's why I will get a NeXTStation. I now have an ST and I have had >>it for about 5 years... But I don't have to stick with Atari anymore. > >Yep, for a unix box, the NeXT will be tough to beat at this price. But then again, the NeXT isn't much of a Unix box. The Unix consultants I work with are quick to point that the NeXT "just happens to run Unix" instead of being designed as a Unix box. If you've used a Sun Sparcstation or a DECStation, you'll know what I mean. They don't cost _that_ much more than a NeXT. -- "And now, adding color | Il Hwan Oh a group of anonymous, Latin-American | University of Washington, Tacoma meat-packing glitterati" | iho@cac.washington.edu -- Pink Floyd, Final Cut |
gcarter@globey.cs.wisc.edu (Gregory Carter) (12/10/90)
Mmmmm, obviously this guy has never seen one! We just got one in our lab last week. Its anything but slow. Actually its only problem now is the software available. TRUST ME, speed is NOT a problem with a 040. --Gregory
charlie@wam.umd.edu (Charles William Fletcher) (12/10/90)
In article <1990Dec9.191540.4667@daffy.cs.wisc.edu> gcarter@globey.cs.wisc.edu (Gregory Carter) writes: >Mmmmm, obviously this guy has never seen one! > >We just got one in our lab last week. Its anything but slow. Actually >its only problem now is the software available. TRUST ME, speed is NOT >a problem with a 040. > >--Gregory I agree speed is not a problem in the 040 NeXTs (I have talked to developers who due heavy applications on the SparcStation and now on the NextStation who also say there is no speed problems with the NextStation.) But in comparing the TT (or any other computer) with the NeXT, speed is not (or should not) be the whole issue. What the NeXT has that gives it the advantage (in my opinion) is its integrated working environment. For example, putting graphics into TeX is a real pain. On the NeXT you can not only include PostScript graphics but you can *SEE* the included graphics on the screen previewer due to the Display PS. Then what you see is really what you get when printing. In addition, the Interface Builder is a major boon to developers-you build windows and general GUIs for your application by dragging pieces together in graphical environment(SUN has a similar, yet less advanced, design environment called GUIDE.) Lotus was able to design an entirely new spreadsheet (Improv) in only a few months due to the nature of IB (compare that with there own update of Lotus 123). Also, NeXT is a different type of company than Atari--the NextStation was concieved as an idea in Jan, 90 and in production by Oct. Compare that to the TT development. I've had an ST for years and love it. Many great and innovative products have come (and unfortunately gone). Atari's management has all but killed one of the great computers(The biggest Atari dealer in the DC area has closed, and the chain stores no longer carry ST software-mail order in the only way, so hopefully you got to see the software run somewhere else.) I've waited for the TT, but the only one I've seen (at AtariFest) was running Mac software. I'm tired of waiting so I defected(luckly being able to get an academic discount on a NeXT, otherwise the price would have put me out of the picture. NeXT is trying to fill in between workstations and PC's--PC types think NeXT hw/sw is expensive, workstation type, SUN etc., think NeXT hw/sw is cheap.) IF you can get the discount, and IF you have the money, the NeXT is worth looking at, but I don't think most STer will be going this way--too bad, they are a good group. Finally one last thing(!)--an earlier post on this thread stated that the NeXT was not a Unix machine--that's basically correct. NeXT uses MACH for its OS. Mach supports multiple processors and has a Unix like set of commands. It has been adopted by the OSF as one of its standardized OS's. True Unix gurus slam it on the NeXT since UUCP is not suported(yet works) and there is no SLIP, etc. for "at home" communicating(the NeXT has built in EtherNet for networking, but fails to recognize the at home networker.) Well too much said-- --Charlie
jerry@polygen.uucp (Jerry Sheckel) (12/12/90)
iho@akbar.UUCP (Il Oh) writes: > >But then again, the NeXT isn't much of a Unix box. The Unix consultants >I work with are quick to point that the NeXT "just happens to run Unix" >instead of being designed as a Unix box. If you've used a Sun Sparcstation >or a DECStation, you'll know what I mean. > What?! This makes no sense whatsoever. What is it about the NeXT that makes it "not much of a Unix box"? Unix is designed to run on all sorts of vanilla hardware. Of course, it runs well on fast hardware, which the 68040-based NeXT certainly is. If anything, the NeXT is more than just a Unix box, considering its audio-visual capabilities. -- +-------------------+----------------------+---------------------------------+ | JERRY J. SHEKHEL | POLYGEN CORPORATION | When I was young, I had to walk | | Drummers do it... | Waltham, MA USA | to school and back every day -- | | ... In rhythm! | (617) 890-2175 | 20 miles, uphill both ways. | +-------------------+----------------------+---------------------------------+ | ...! [ princeton mit-eddie bu sunne ] !polygen!jerry | | jerry@polygen.com | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
iho@cac.washington.edu (Il Oh) (12/13/90)
jerry@redford.UUCP (Jerry Shekhel) writes: >iho@akbar.UUCP (Il Oh) writes: >>But then again, the NeXT isn't much of a Unix box. The Unix consultants >>I work with are quick to point that the NeXT "just happens to run Unix" >>instead of being designed as a Unix box. If you've used a Sun Sparcstation >>or a DECStation, you'll know what I mean. >What?! This makes no sense whatsoever. What is it about the NeXT that >makes it "not much of a Unix box"? Unix is designed to run on all sorts >of vanilla hardware. Of course, it runs well on fast hardware, which the >68040-based NeXT certainly is. If anything, the NeXT is more than just >a Unix box, considering its audio-visual capabilities. I'm merely repeating what the gurus I work with said. One thing I do know, however, is that you can't get a NeXT to go into "promiscuous mode" for capturing ethernet packets. -- "And now, adding color | Il Hwan Oh a group of anonymous, Latin-American | University of Washington, Tacoma meat-packing glitterati" | iho@cac.washington.edu -- Pink Floyd, Final Cut |
cleland@sdbio2.ucsd.edu (Thomas Cleland) (12/13/90)
>>Well, you can get a NeXTStation with: >>Megapixel 4-grayshade monitor, 17 inch, about 1200x850 pixels >>8MB RAM, 105MB HD, 68040, DSP, ethernet, SCSI II, etc. etc. >>Lots of good software. >> >>If TT's educ. price would be about $3000 (highly possible), I could see >>no reason to get one over the NeXTStation (I wouldn't get Amiga3000UX either). >>So that's why I will get a NeXTStation. I now have an ST and I have had >>it for about 5 years... But I don't have to stick with Atari anymore. > (insert clever, accurate rebuttal here...) A > >Sorry, I just had to say that. > >Karl Rueb Don't apologize, Karl. This Jouni person has been infecting comp.sys.amiga too. Haven't checked .mac or .os.msdos yet... I love hearing specs of different machines, but there comes a point where their perverse and annoying repetition is not unlike having a tick on your eye. A nasty thought. -- Thom Cleland It is easier tcleland@ucsd.edu to get forgiveness Amiga Users' Group at UCSD than permission...
jvance@ics.uci.edu (Joachim Patrick Vance) (12/16/90)
In article <1990Dec10.144119.25552@wam.umd.edu> charlie@wam.umd.edu (Charles William Fletcher) writes: > >IF you can get the discount, and IF you have the money, the NeXT >is worth looking at, but I don't think most STer will be going >this way--too bad, they are a good group. Seems to me that the issue of getting a NeXT is more than just finding out that the NeXT is a great computer and that with a discount it probably costs about the same as a TT. My questions would be: How much does the cheapest color Next cost? How much is NeXT software? What about entertainment software for those times that you just gotta shoot something (most of it is probably PD)? Do I have to buy the NeXT laser printer or could I use a third party printer (Even at that discount price, not everyone has the money for a laser)? Can I be productive on the NeXT the same way that I was on the ST without too much costly software and/or hardware add-ons (productivity spans Music, Business, Desktop Publishing, etc)? Many ST users in general like their ST because of the wide variety of things that can be done on it without too much expense. And if I need color, it's just a monitor away (okay, so the color isn't 24 or 32 bit). Also, if I got a NeXT (or an Amiga 3000UX or a Mac IIsi) I would lose my software. Granted, it's the price one pays for a 'better' system, but I can't afford that price, even if I can afford the new system. This isn't to say that a NeXT (or whatever) isn't interesting, but a TT looks awfuly good if the overall cost to me ends up being less for upgrading to a new system. I'd really like to hear from people who switched systems and how expensive (or inexpensive) it was, Atari management issues and such aside. (But that doesn't belong on this board, so mail me). -- Joachim Vance ===================================================================== I am antisesquipedalian--Opposed to the use of long words. =====================================================================
cfw@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Chuck Waltrip) (12/20/90)
In article <12551@milton.u.washington.edu> iho@akbar.UUCP (Il Oh) writes: >cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >>jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: [...stuff deleted...] >But then again, the NeXT isn't much of a Unix box. The Unix consultants >I work with are quick to point that the NeXT "just happens to run Unix" >instead of being designed as a Unix box. If you've used a Sun Sparcstation >or a DECStation, you'll know what I mean. They don't cost _that_ much >more than a NeXT. Well, I've used a DECstation and I'm afraid I don't know what's meant here. If it means that the NeXT does not use unix for the sake of unix but for what unix enables it to do, then I don't understand what criticism is implied here. The NeXT implementation of unix is built around the Mach kernel. This bit of pioneering has resulted in the usual trials associated with pioneering but gives them a headstart on what will eventually be the mainstream (or one of them, anyway) when OSF/1 is generally available. Having looked at both DECstation prices and NeXT prices recently, I believe the price difference for a working system is quite substantial. When you consider that a NeXT comes with software pre-loaded so it is possible to get by with just the floppy diskette rather than the tape systems the DECstation requires, the difference is more substantial. And when you compare annual software maintenance costs, a DECstation is quite out of reach for me. That's not to say that the DECstation isn't a great machine...I love it! And DEC's a great company and I'd love to be able to afford their support for my software. But as someone who has looked into this recently, I don't feel that NeXT is somehow foisting off a second-rate unix. On the contrary, they seem to have a very well-thought out plan to which unix is vital. Having said all of this, I should point out that I certainly am not a disinterested party having just ordered a NeXT (but I'm keeping my 5 year old 1040 which is still useful thanks to many great people who post to this newsgroup). >-- > "And now, adding color | Il Hwan Oh > a group of anonymous, Latin-American | University of Washington, Tacoma > meat-packing glitterati" | iho@cac.washington.edu > -- Pink Floyd, Final Cut | c.f.waltrip <cfw@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> Opinions expressed by me are strictly my own.
mike@maths.tcd.ie (MIKE ROGERS) (12/29/90)
In article <276A8A68.1681@ics.uci.edu>, jvance@ics.uci.edu (Joachim Patrick Vance) wrote: >32 bit). Also, if I got a NeXT (or an Amiga 3000UX or a Mac IIsi) I >would lose my software. Granted, it's the price one pays for a >'better' system, but I can't afford that price, even if I can afford There are ST emulators for the Amiga. Soft and hard. -- Mike Rogers,Box 6,Regent Hse,TCD,EIRE | Are teenage dreams so hard to beat? mike@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie (UNIX=>AOK) | Here comes the summer, mike@tcdmath.uucp (UUCP=>oldie/goodie)| ....And you're pissed off. msrogers@vax1.tcd.ie(VMS => blergh) | Wednesday Week never happened at all.
Yonderboy@cup.portal.com (Christopher Lee Russell) (12/30/90)
Somebody left a message about ST emulators for the Amiga (soft and hard).
I am curious about the quality of these emulators. I had heard a hardware
emulator was coming out so have been glancing thru the adds in Amiga mags at
the magazine-rack, but haven't seen any for sale yet.
...........Yonderboy@cup.portal.comcmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (01/01/91)
In article <37358@cup.portal.com> Yonderboy@cup.portal.com (Christopher Lee Russell) writes: >Somebody left a message about ST emulators for the Amiga (soft and hard). >I am curious about the quality of these emulators. I had heard a hardware >emulator was coming out so have been glancing thru the adds in Amiga mags at >the magazine-rack, but haven't seen any for sale yet. Well, I have not seen it yet, but there is a hardware ST emulator board for the Amiga called the Medusa Board. I'm not sure what the compatibility is like. Also, I have yet to see a working software emulation for the ST on the Amiga. I suspect it isn't very easy to do in software since there are so many custom chips in the ST to emulate. > > ...........Yonderboy@cup.portal.com Have a happy one. Cheers, Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |D{r det finns en |l, finns cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |det en plan! (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null | ------------------------------+---------------------------
Jon_Clarke@kcbbs.gen.nz (Jon Clarke) (01/01/91)
Re the Amiga/ ST emulator, Well Chris I for one was shocked with the quality of the software emulator called "ST-HACK". It appears this was done in DL/Germany and will run in low - medium and high res. Though in high res the interlacing on the Amiga is awful. It ran most of the software we have here and QuickST and turboST did indeed help speed up the desktop. The speed is akin to running a mono_emulatoe (make that mono_emulator) on a colour ST. So I was very impressed with Amiga/ST emulator. Although remember the OS they use which is TOS version 1.2 is pirated and therefore illegal. -No flames please send them to null\dev not me! Jon_Clarke@kcbbs.gen.nz STT@kcbbs.gen.nz GEnie: J.Clarke6
jvance@bonnie.ics.uci.edu (Joachim Patrick Vance) (01/10/91)
In article <1990Dec28.160652.19458@maths.tcd.ie> mike@maths.tcd.ie (MIKE ROGERS) writes: >In article <276A8A68.1681@ics.uci.edu>, jvance@ics.uci.edu (Joachim Patrick Vance) wrote: >>32 bit). Also, if I got a NeXT (or an Amiga 3000UX or a Mac IIsi) I >>would lose my software. Granted, it's the price one pays for a >>'better' system, but I can't afford that price, even if I can afford > > There are ST emulators for the Amiga. Soft and hard. > So? Can they run *everything* I need and/or want to run becomes the question. What's the comatibility rate. List the major programs that don't run. -- Joachim Vance ===================================================================== I am antisesquipedalian--Opposed to the use of long words. =====================================================================