rrwood@contact.uucp (roy wood) (01/04/91)
Someone recently posted a request for 128K ROMs to be used with his Atari ST/
Spectre GCR. This prompts me to ask two questions which I've been curious
about for a while:
1.) Why doesn't litigation-happy Apple sic their lawyers on Gadgets by Small?
2.) Why doesn't anyone talk about how easy it is to duplicate a set of Mac
ROMs instead of forking out the cash for an official set? All you need
do is borrow a friend's ROMs and an EPROM (or EEROM) burner...
I hope this elicits a response from someone official at Apple, or at least
from someone with answers.
-Roy Wood.gray@diemen.utas.edu.au (Tony Gray) (01/05/91)
In article <1991Jan4.012611.23146@contact.uucp>, rrwood@contact.uucp (roy wood) writes: > Someone recently posted a request for 128K ROMs to be used with his Atari ST/ > Spectre GCR. This prompts me to ask two questions which I've been curious > about for a while: > > 1.) Why doesn't litigation-happy Apple sic their lawyers on Gadgets by Small? > >2.) Why doesn't anyone talk about how easy it is to duplicate a set of Mac > ROMs instead of forking out the cash for an official set? All you need > do is borrow a friend's ROMs and an EPROM (or EEROM) burner... > Re point 1, why should Apple do anything to Gadgets? Gadgets in no way encourage the acquisition of Apple's copyrighted software (ROMS or system software) by any unlawful means (if anything, they actively discourage it). Gadgets produce a polished product, that, with the addition of Apple components can emulate a Macintosh. Even Apple would have a hard time getting a judge to believe Gadgets were in the wrong. Re point 2, sure its easy to duplicate a set of Mac ROMS instead of forking out for the official set. No one talks about it for the same reason no one talks about how they can get drugs - its illegal! Surely you must realise that (or are you just looking to generate some network activity?) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tony Gray AARNET : gray@diemen.cc.utas.edu.au School of Applied Computing Phone : +61 03 260 366 University of Tasmania - Launceston (was Tasmanian State Institute of Technology - Score : South 1, North 0) -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Darin.Arrick@ijcr.fidonet.org (Darin Arrick) (01/05/91)
Quote: "Why doesn't ... Apple sic it's lawyers on Gadgets by Small?" Because they haven't done anything wrong. He developed the hardware and software for Spectre by himself. "Why doesn't anyone talk about how easy it is to copy someone else's ROMs instead of forking over the cash for an official set?" Because we're not criminals. --- QuickBBS 2.66 (Reg) * Origin: I.J.C.R. BBS & B'nai No'ach [Ft.Worth, Texas] (1:130/49) -- Darin Arrick - via Fidonet node 1:130/49 UUCP: ...!merch!ijcr!Darin.Arrick INTERNET: Darin.Arrick@ijcr.fidonet.org
dag@gorgon.uucp (Daniel A. Glasser) (01/07/91)
One thing that prevents people from pirating the MAC ROMS to use in the Spectre (or Magic Sac) products is that it is possible for circuitry to be designed to distinguish between the masked ROMs and EPROMS, and to make sure that Apple did not go after him, Mr. Small built said logic into his product. EPROMS don't work. -- Daniel A. Glasser One of those things that goes dag%gorgon@persoft.com "BUMP! (ouch!)" in the night.
gray@diemen.utas.edu.au (Tony Gray) (01/07/91)
In article <1991Jan06.212014.21625@gorgon.uucp>, dag@gorgon.uucp (Daniel A. Glasser) writes: > One thing that prevents people from pirating the MAC ROMS to use in the > Spectre (or Magic Sac) products is that it is possible for circuitry to > be designed to distinguish between the masked ROMs and EPROMS, and to make > sure that Apple did not go after him, Mr. Small built said logic into his > product. EPROMS don't work. > -- There was a lot of hype when the Magic Sac was first released stating (in big bold letters) that EPROMS would not work. To the best of my knowledge, this was and still is just that - hype. I don't beleive it is that easy to distinguish between ROMS and EPROMS with such simple circuitry as exists in either the Magic Sac or the SPECTRE carts. Disclaimer : I am NOT advocating the duplication of Macintosh ROMS.
hojo@cbnewsl.att.com (HC Johnson) (01/08/91)
In article <1991Jan06.212014.21625@gorgon.uucp>, dag@gorgon.uucp (Daniel A. Glasser) writes: > One thing that prevents people from pirating the MAC ROMS to use in the > Spectre (or Magic Sac) products is that it is possible for circuitry to > be designed to distinguish between the masked ROMs and EPROMS, and to make > sure that Apple did not go after him, Mr. Small built said logic into his > product. EPROMS don't work. > -- > Daniel A. Glasser One of those things that goes > dag%gorgon@persoft.com "BUMP! (ouch!)" in the night. Sorry, Dan. Magic SAC played this game, which Intel created. But Spectre 128 reading 128K ROMS will also read EPROMS because the magic line is not present on 128K devices. Howard Johnson ATT BELL LABS att!lzsc!hcj hcj@lzsc.att.com
rrd@hpfcso.HP.COM (Ray Depew) (01/08/91)
> ... This prompts me to ask two questions which I've been curious > about for a while: > 1.) Why doesn't litigation-happy Apple sic their lawyers on Gadgets by Small? Old news. They tried that once already. GBS had a little trick they pulled (perfectly legal, of course) that shut up Apple and their lawyers very quickly. > 2.) Why doesn't anyone talk about how easy it is to duplicate a set of Mac > ROMs instead of forking out the cash for an official set? All you need > do is borrow a friend's ROMs and an EPROM (or EEROM) burner... Also old news. Of course it's easy. It's also easy to grow marijuana at home, or make pipe bombs in your basement. But I doubt you'll find anyone talking about it in a public forum like this. That wouldn't be too smart. -------- Ray (My 128K ROMs were made by Apple, I don't grow or smoke pot, and I don't even WANT to know how to make pipe bombs.)
wilko@idca.tds.PHILIPS.nl (W.C. Bulte) (01/08/91)
In article <1991Jan06.212014.21625@gorgon.uucp> dag@gorgon.uucp (Daniel A. Glasser) writes: >One thing that prevents people from pirating the MAC ROMS to use in the >Spectre (or Magic Sac) products is that it is possible for circuitry to >be designed to distinguish between the masked ROMs and EPROMS, and to make >sure that Apple did not go after him, Mr. Small built said logic into his >product. EPROMS don't work. >-- >Daniel A. Glasser One of those things that goes >dag%gorgon@persoft.com "BUMP! (ouch!)" in the night. This is definitely not true. I have seen someone using EPROMs with no problems whatsoever. (It was Spectre 128, not a GCR but I think it will work with both). It is illegal to copy the ROMs, but it can be done... _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Wilko Bulte Domain: wilko@idca.tds.philips.nl |/|/ / / /( (_) uucp : [mcsun,hp4nl]!philapd!wilko * Philips Information Systems Nederland phone: 055-432372 fax: 055-432103 ____________________________________________________________________________
hojo@cbnewsl.att.com (HC Johnson) (01/11/91)
In article <2611@krafla.rhi.hi.is>, adamd@rhi.hi.is (Adam David) writes: > In <1991Jan7.162136.3773@cbnewsl.att.com> hojo@cbnewsl.att.com (HC Johnson) writes: > > > Hang on a bit, Mac 128k ROMs are 64k each or am I missing something. Spectre > only addresses 128k on two chips, by a rather strange method (IMHO). > The myth of a security lock possibly originates with the Mac board layout, which > requires some of the data lines to be swapped on the ROMs. This would cause an > EPROM made from a ROM dump to fail. Anyone with their firmware on EPROM will be > in for a shock some years later when the data falls off it (if they don't have > the master ROMs handy), correct me if I'm wrong. > The 64K roms used the Intel 2764 type Eprom or equivalent Rom. In the Intel design, there pin 1 was used to control programming an Eprom; Gnd for programming, +5 for usage. The Intel ROM (2564) required (allowed) pin 1 to be grounded. The result was that an Eprom couldn't be used unless you knew to lift pin 1. The 128K roms used by Intel are 27128 (or maybe 27256) Eprom or equivalent rom. These use pin 1 for an address line so the roms and eproms have the exact same pin outs. Yes, Mac switched around 5 lines (2 in one; 3 in the other) making up the full 16 bit word being accessed. The Spectre cartridge rearranges them to make them read correctly. (This really makes using the S cartridge for other roms exciting and the bits have to be rearranged in software). A Rom programmer will not care how the bits were rearranged when the original was made, it only makes a 1:1 clone. However, there are many programmers that will NOT allow a ROM to be read (to prevent cloning!). Thats when the Spectre cartridge is useful in reading the Rom into memory; then producing a data file such a programmer will accept. This is the convenient way to patch TOS ROMS. ------ As has been pointed out earlier, one does not say they are making a copy of thus and such ROMS (or software). What is done and used in your own house is really your business. The nasties come about when these copies are freely available to "friends" or are being sold. Most of my work into reading ROMS dealt with copying both TOS 1.2 and 1.4 into 27512 EPROMS so that I could check out product compatibility. I own the sources and run my copies instead. Howard Johnson ATT BELL LABS att!lzsc!hcj hcj@lzsc.att.com
dsmall@well.sf.ca.us (David Small) (01/16/91)
(The preceding article is a discussion of use of EPROMS in Spectre 128/GCR). (Howards says basically that they work.) Howard, I know you mean well and are trying to set the record straight, but we pulled some very subtle stuff in Spectre to put a "Keep Out" sign on EPROMs in the unit. If nothing else, I wanted something to show UnNamed Corp. that I was trying my best to prevent piracy. And the code itself was dual-encrypted to help prevent "cracked" copies from using disk-based code. The problem is, you're not going to believe me unless I tell you what I did, and if I tell you, the world will know how to break the protection that is most certainly there. I get a few tech notes each month with a specific crash/behavior that tell me, for just about certain, that the user has plugged EPROMs into the Spectre. How's about this. I'm willing to fund a dinner for two here in Denver. I'll tell you how we did what we did, and why it works, over dinner. If it sounds cool to you, say so on the Net; if not, say so, too. But I think you'll see that the stuff is subtle enough to cause it to be very effective in the hands of the average pirate. I don't know which AT&T facility you're at; there's a big one in Denver that Dan Moore was at. Sound fair? In the meantime, I would appreciate it if you'd stop saying flatly that EPROMs work in Spectre. They don't an amazing amount of time, and the results are pretty interesting. -- thanks, Dave / Gadgets