PV9Y@cornella.BITNET (12/09/86)
Received: by CORNELLA (Mailer X1.23b) id 3790; Mon, 08 Dec 86 18:14:20 EST
Date: 08 December 86 18:14 EST
From: PV9Y@CORNELLA
Subject: magic sac
To: INFO-ATARI16@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU
Hi, I'm new to this discussion and would like to know what (if anything)
is happening with the Macintosh emulator. I'm at Cornell, where
Macintoshes abound (to my dismay whenever I need to use one) and I would
be very interested if the emulator was reasonable and worked fairly
well. Thanks.
-Adam Engst (pv9y@cornella.bitnet)ccrjohnm@deneb.UUCP (02/03/87)
I was wondering if anyone had a list of mac software that will run on the atari st with magic sac? I have heard that excel runs ok is this true? does microsoft word run? I would be willing to make a list of software that runs and post it. Please send me all the software that you know runs on the atari w/ magic sac thanks - john
landay@violet.berkeley.edu.UUCP (03/01/87)
I tried to download a mac binary from the vax with Freeterm. It works
o.k. But when I exit Freeterm my mac disk has been trashed. Has anyone
had any success with Freeterm? Is there something better?
Thanks,
James A. Landay
ARPA: landay@violet.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!violet!landay
BITNET: landay%violet@UCBJADE.BITNET
% this is user friendly
this: Command not found.engst@batcomputer.UUCP (03/04/87)
I realize no one has particularly been talking about the magic sac recently,
but I am still interested in the files which it does/doesn't run. Although
the software that I really *need* to run was developed on the Lisa and
ported to the Mac (I'm not sure how), I would still use other Mac software
for certain tasks such as dynamic font word processing (which is nice
occassionally) and easy transference to Macs at work. Could some kind soul
please post a list of software that they *know* does or does not run? I
would also appreciate some addresses of merchants selling the sac with ROMS
included. Thanks a lot!
Adam Engst
engst@batcomputer (I still haven't figured out addressing, but it is at
Cornell University)
pv9y@cornella.bitnet (in case the other address makes no sense)landay@violet.berkeley.edu (James A. Landay) (03/08/87)
Is there someone out there who could possibly send me a disk with some
public domain Mac terminal programs? Freeterm keep trashing my disks.
Thanks
James A. Landay
ARPA: landay@violet.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!violet!landay
BITNET: landay%violet@UCBJADE.BITNET
% this is user friendly
this: Command not found.franco@iuvax.UUCP (03/12/87)
I have found FREETERM, TERMWORKS and PGTERM all work with the emulator. TERMWORKS is probably the best but PGTERM has a VT52 (I think) Terminal Emulator. Before proceeding further, I would try repeating your experiments with a different macintosh system disk (what version are you using, anyway?) I have found that system disks that are too full present problems - so you can try to get rid of fonts and desk accessories and see what happens. If there is enough positive interest and a minimum of negative interest, I will be happy to post TERMWORKS in binhex (I hope you have that working) so you can do a text capture. It is not a terribly big file.
stone@calgary.UUCP (03/15/87)
I got UW (the Sun window terminal software) to run under Magic Sac. I yet to get my hands on UW for the ST. Does anyone know where I can get it? Glen Stone (!alberta!calgary!stone)
engst@batcomputer.UUCP (03/16/87)
Could someone who has the Magic Sac please post a list of files that they
know work or do not work? I am very interested in getting the Sac, but I
need to know more about how compatible it is. If it isn't too much trouble,
could someone at least post the README files that come with the Sac (someone
promised to do this a while ago but never did)? Also, has anyone used the
Sac with a color monitor? Is it readable in color? Does anyone know of a
cheap source of ROMS (I heard a rumor about some place in Syracuse, New York
having them for $25 but I don't know any specifics)? I would be eternally
grateful for any information about the Sac as it works currently. Thanks .
Adam Engst
engst@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu
pv9y@cornell.bitnetlanday@violet.berkeley.edu.UUCP (04/22/87)
Has anyone gotten DA/FontMover and/or Unpit to work on the Sac using
v. 2.0 or 3.5 of the Sac software. If so can you send me some pointers
or the files.
Thanks,
James A. Landay
ARPA: landay@violet.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!violet!landay
BITNET: landay%violet@UCBJADE.BITNET
% this is user friendly
this: Command not found.c160-ax@zooey.Berkeley.EDU (James A. Landay) (09/21/87)
Could someone please send me V4.36 of the magic software?
I want to see if it fixes lots of the problems my software
has before I go and buy the latest version.
thanks,
James A. Landay
ARPA: landay@violet.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!violet!landayfjo@ttrde.UUCP (10/02/87)
I've been reading about this Magic Sac, and would like to know: Where can I get one? How much does it cost? Does it work with 128K Mac ROMS? Thanks; Frank Owen ( ...ihnp4!ttrde!fjo)
UUCJEFF@ECNCDC.BITNET (10/09/87)
How does magic sac work with MIDI? Does it go through the MIDI port like it would if it was ST software? Any comments on using the MAC MIDI software products on the Magic Sac? thanks for help, Jeff Beer
engst@batcomputer.UUCP (11/21/87)
In article <3548@uwmcsd1.UUCP> hammen@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.UUCP (Robert Hammen) writes: >In article <289@lakesys.UUCP> martin@lakesys.UUCP (Martin Wiedmeyer) writes: >> >> Perhaps you might have overlooked the Magic Sac for the Atari ST. It >>runs Mac software 20% faster than on the Mac....:-) (the clock's a little >>faster....) >The Magic Sac works with the 64K ROMs, and even Apple has announced that they >will no longer support the 64K ROMs anymore - most new commercial applications >that I have seen require the 128K ROMs. This is true, however, David Small is reportedly working on adding features of the newer ROMS. Also, there is a lot of Mac software which still runs on those poor outdated 64K ROMs. >Also, if I am not mistaken, there is >no way to interchange disks between the two machines (read Mac disks in an ST >or read ST disks in a Mac), this really isn't a viable alternative. Not true. Data Pacific just released the Translator One, a box which plugs into the ST's MIDI ports and somehow modulates the signals coming from the normal ST drive so that the emulator thinks they are coming from an odd Mac drive (I have more trouble with Mac drives on Cornell's public Macs than any other computer system we have percentage-wise, though I heard the C-64 had a similar problem). The only problem is that it only currently allows MFS (though double-sided) disks. Again, Small is working on getting it to support HFS. >I was also >under the impression that the speed difference was related to the Mac's >handling of the video display (a problem which the SE and some third party >RAM upgrades, most notably the MonsterMac, don't have). That wasn't what I heard, but since I don't know I won't comment. >> Marty >Robert Hammen Computer Applications, Inc. hammen@csd4.milw.wisc.edu In general, I would say that the Magic Sac makes sense for some people, namely those who don't need a Mac exclusively (emulation is never as good), those who are strapped for funds yet want use of some Mac products, and those who want a faster Mac with a bigger screen for less money, despite all the problems with an emulator. It also makes a lot sense for those who already happen to own an ST and can't afford another computer. It certainly will never replace or probably even compete much with a Mac. But it is still a wonderful hack! Adam Engst engst@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu pv9y@cornella.bitnet
dhawk@well.UUCP (David Hawkins) (11/22/87)
In the referenced article, engst@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu (Adam C. Engst) wrote: >In article <3548@uwmcsd1.UUCP> hammen@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.UUCP (Robert Hammen) writes: >>In article <289@lakesys.UUCP> martin@lakesys.UUCP (Martin Wiedmeyer) writes: >>> >>> Perhaps you might have overlooked the Magic Sac for the Atari ST. >>The Magic Sac works with the 64K ROMs, and even Apple has announced that they >>will no longer support the 64K ROMs anymore - most new commercial applications >>that I have seen require the 128K ROMs. The Magic Sac emulates the 128K ROMS, needing just the 64K ROMS to get around the legal end. In other words, Dave can emulate the rest of the stuff as long as he gets the basics from real Mac ROMS. So the Magic Sac does run stuff for the 128K ROMS. There's no need for him to set it up to require the newer ROMS. -- David Hawkins {ptsfa,hplabs,ucbvax}!well!dhawk It is a luxury to be understood. - Ralph Waldo Emerson -
charles@mnetor.UUCP (Charles Benaiah) (11/23/87)
>>The Magic Sac works with the 64K ROMs, and even Apple has announced that they >>will no longer support the 64K ROMs anymore - most new commercial applications >>that I have seen require the 128K ROMs. > Does this mean that the machine has to be opened, and the new ROMs inserted, or are they plugged into some external box? >>Also, if I am not mistaken, there is >>no way to interchange disks between the two machines (read Mac disks in an ST >>or read ST disks in a Mac), this really isn't a viable alternative. > >Not true. Data Pacific just released the Translator One, a box which plugs >into the ST's MIDI ports and somehow modulates the signals coming from the >normal ST drive so that the emulator thinks they are coming from an odd Mac >drive (I have more trouble with Mac drives on Cornell's public Macs than any >other computer system we have percentage-wise, though I heard the C-64 had a >similar problem). The only problem is that it only currently allows MFS >(though double-sided) disks. Again, Small is working on getting it to >support HFS. Will this system (transaltor 1) also work for internal drives, or does this box connect to the MIDI, and to some external drive?
dhawk@well.UUCP (David Hawkins) (11/24/87)
In the referenced article, I wrote: >The Magic Sac emulates the 128K ROMS, needing just the 64K ROMS to get >around the legal end. In other words, Dave can emulate the rest of >the stuff as long as he gets the basics from real Mac ROMS. So the >Magic Sac does run stuff for the 128K ROMS. There's no need for him >to set it up to require the newer ROMS. I was mis-remembering the following: This is what I got from Data Pacific this month: | 128K and 256K ROMS | Many users ask when we will support the newer 128K and 256K ROMs |from Apple. We do not plan to support these ROMs with the MAGIC SAC, |primarily because the code which is contained inside of these ROMs |will be provided by our software. Thus, _there is no advantage in the |use of these ROMs over the 64K ROMs_ with the Magic Sac. | Software Compatibility | . . . general rule of thumb is: If the software is Macintosh II |comptaible, was written to conform to the Apple Macintosh programming |guidelines, and does not access hardware directly, then it is usually |compatible with the MAGIC SAC. ---------------------- So anyway, they're saying in this release that the 128K and 256K ROMs will be covered in software. I would guess that like all future plans that could change. |-) -- David Hawkins {ptsfa,hplabs,ucbvax}!well!dhawk It is a luxury to be understood. - Ralph Waldo Emest po l
tim@brspyr1.BRS.Com (Tim Northrup) (11/24/87)
In answer to some of Charles' questions about the Magic Sac: in article <4340@mnetor.UUCP>, charles@mnetor.UUCP (Charles Benaiah) says: |>The Magic Sac works with the 64K ROMs, and even Apple has announced that they |>will no longer support the 64K ROMs anymore - most new commercial applications |>that I have seen require the 128K ROMs. | | Does this mean that the machine has to be opened, and the new ROMs inserted, | or are they plugged into some external box? The Sac is a plug-in expansion module which pops into the cartridge port on the side of the ST. The box contains slots for the 2 Apple ROMs and a few other components (like a battery powered CLOCK which keeps the correct time even when the system is powered off; very nice). > Will this system (transaltor 1) also work for internal drives, or does this > box connect to the MIDI, and to some external drive? The Translator 1 is said to work with internal as well as external drives. I don't think it connects to the MIDI port however, I think it just goes between the floppy connector on the ST and the floppy drive: the description says something to the effect that internal drive accesses will make some access to the external port FIRST, allowing the Translator 1 do "something". Hope this helps. -- Tim. -- tim@brspyr1.BRS.Com uunet!steinmetz!brspyr1!tim ============================================ Tim "The Enchanter" Northrup
dhawk@well.UUCP (David Hawkins) (11/25/87)
In the referenced article, charles@mnetor.UUCP (Charles Benaiah) wrote: >Does this mean that the machine has to be opened, and the new ROMs inserted, >or are they plugged into some external box? If you are refering to the Magic Sac, it's external cartridge, but doesn't support the 128K ROMs. >>Not true. Data Pacific just released the Translator One, a box which plugs >>into the ST's MIDI ports and somehow modulates the signals coming from the >>normal ST drive so that the emulator thinks they are coming from an odd Mac >>drive >Will this system (transaltor 1) also work for internal drives, or does this >box connect to the MIDI, and to some external drive? It works on the Atari internal drive as well on external ones. -- David Hawkins {ptsfa,hplabs,ucbvax}!well!dhawk It is a luxury to be understood. - Ralph Waldo Emerson -
john@viper.UUCP (11/25/87)
In article <4340@mnetor.UUCP> charles@mnetor.UUCP (Charles Benaiah) asks: > >Will this system (transaltor 1) also work for internal drives, or does this >box connect to the MIDI, and to some external drive? Internal as well as external. Many copy protected programs will now work just fine on the Magic Sac when run on an ST with the Translator-One attatched. (Before anyone asks, yes, you can format a disk on the ST using Translator-One, put some files one it, take it to a Mac, and then read/use the files on the Mac...) --- John Stanley (john@viper.UUCP) Software Consultant - DynaSoft Systems UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!meccts!viper!john
lsr@apple.UUCP (Larry Rosenstein) (11/25/87)
In article <4524@well.UUCP> dhawk@well.UUCP (David Hawkins) writes: >This is what I got from Data Pacific this month: >| 128K and 256K ROMS >| Many users ask when we will support the newer 128K and 256K ROMs >|from Apple. We do not plan to support these ROMs with the MAGIC SAC, >|primarily because the code which is contained inside of these ROMs >|will be provided by our software. Thus, _there is no advantage in the >|use of these ROMs over the 64K ROMs_ with the Magic Sac. It will be interesting to see if they can pull this off (legally). Some of the new routines in the 128K ROMs are extensions of those in the 64K ROMs (eg, the new Resource Manager calls). But others are not extensions (eg, the new Quickdraw calls). It will be difficult to implement all these calls without copying the actual ROMs. The problem is even worse for 256K ROMs, expecially with Color Quickdraw. (I don't see any way they can duplicate all of Color Quickdraw.) Also, some of the changes were performance improvements, especially in the Resource Manager and Quickdraw. Unless they reimplement these routines as well, it is not true that "there is no advantage" in the use of the 128K & 256K ROMs; the actual ROMs will have better performance. -- Larry Rosenstein Object Specialist Apple Computer AppleLink: Rosenstein1 UUCP: {sun, voder, nsc, mtxinu, dual}!apple!lsr CSNET: lsr@Apple.com
moe@athena.mit.edu (Moezeddin K. Karimeddiny) (11/26/87)
From what I read on Genie the Translator One works with HFS and with internal drive. It plugs into the MIDI port and can read, write, format Mac disks.
dsmall@well.UUCP (David Small) (11/26/87)
UUCP> Sender: Reply-To: dsmall@well.UUCP (David Small) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link, Sausalito, CA Keywords: In the referenced article, Dave Hawkins is mentioning our policy towards upgrades of the Magic Sac (64K -> 128K ROMs). Dave is running into a problem that's really based in our trying to explain to users the differences between 64K and 128K ROMS. The big difference is the HFS file system, which is supported for 64K ROMs (and thus the Magic Sac) by "Hard Disk 20", a sort of RAM-based HFS patch from Apple. The other differences, such as zoom boxes, sped-up Quickdraw, rom-resident routines, and so forth found in the 128K ROMs are not supported by the Magic Sac. The HFS support is what is meant by "will be made up in software". We didn't mean to confuse anyone, it's just very difficult to explain HFS, MFS, and HD-20 to a casual user. We haven't done any work on a 128K ROM version Magic Sac; our present efforts are towards IBM PC cards that read/write Mac disks. I hope this clears up any confusion we might have caused. -- Thanks, Dave Dave Small / Engineer / Data Pacific
dsmall@well.UUCP (David Small) (11/26/87)
In the referenced article(s), there's discussion of the Translator One, a peripheral that makes Atari drives Mac compatible. The Translator plugs in "between" the Atari and its disk drive(s). We say this to try to make clear to many people that it is not a mod to the Atari drive, but rather a "translator". As it so happens, it can plug in anywhere on the drive chain, as long as it can sample the read/write signals. Since the internal drive is also on this chain it can work with the internal drive as well; I use one on a 1040 in the office. We use the MIDI ports to send commands to/from the Translator, and can't loop with other MIDI devices. The Translator only turns on when a Mac disk is put in the drive; it is idle otherwise. Hence your drives act like Atari drives until they need to act like Mac drives. We compensate for the varying speed Mac drives by varying our read/write clock rate, rather than tweaking drive speed. I hope this answers some of the Translator questions. -- Thanks, Dave Dave Small / Engineer / I designed the darned thing and look where my summer went... / Data Pacific p.s. I am usually not very successful at replying to netmail; this is solely because I don't know what I'm doing. I've got the necessary manuals and am trying to learn, so if you've sent me mail and had no reply come back, that's why..
kraut@ut-ngp.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) (11/27/87)
and can someone point me to some good articles describing the limitations of what you can/not do with it? -- werner@rascal.ics.utexas.edu (prefered address) kraut@ut-ngp.uucp (if you must)
rupp@cod.UUCP (12/04/87)
I don't think so! I saw the Magic Sac at COMDEX, and was told that the current version does not emulate 128K Mac ROMs. Specifically, I was told that Hypercard would not run on the Atari using the Magic Sac. This was repeated by an Amiga/Atari dealer here in San Diego. Also, be advised that you must "obtain" a genuine 64K Macintosh ROM to put into the Magic Sack. Some dealers apparently have them to sell with the Sac. (BTW, I am a Mac owner who is trying to decide whether to upgrade my 512K, 64K ROM Mac, buy an Amiga, buy an Atari, buy a VAX, buy a tablet of paper and a pencil, or ?) Bill ====================================================================== I speak for myself, and not on behalf of any other person or organization .........................How's that, Gary? ======================================================================
root@stag.UUCP (Computer Abuser) (05/05/88)
[I'me reposting this for john...someone must have typoed...
---> comp.sts.atari.st@stag <--- -trb]
In <8805022214.AA25895@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>, Jim McCabe writes:
>
>Does anyone here own the Magic Sac cartridge? I'm considering buying it
>but I'd like to hear more about it if possible. I'd be very thankful if
>people could answer any if not all of the following questions:
I'll answer all I can..
>a) How fast does it run? I've seen one software-only Mac emulator (it
> was apparently illegal) that was very slow. The mouse would jump all
> over the place because it couldn't keep up with its speed. I'm
> assuming that the Magic Sac is a more professional system than this
> hack. Is the mouse movement just as smooth as on an ST?
It runs at full Mac speed. (Actualy, that's not totaly true,
it's faster than a Mac on many things. :-)
>b) How well does the Translator work? And how good is the disk
> performance compared to a real Mac and compared to the normal ST?
The Translator-One works fine. With it, I can boot directly
from a Macintosh 3.5" floppy disk.
The one drawback is that when reading/writing a Mac format disk
the access speed is noticably slower than a Mac. This won't be
problem if you copy your Mac files/programs to a "Magic-Sac format"
disk (which will then read/write faster than a Mac)...
Reading/writing with a hard disk using the Sac is very fast. The
single problem I know of is that it's so fast you may have problems
when you go to using a normal Mac hard disk. (You'll find yourself
wanting to toss the Mac hard disk in the garbage...)
>c) Does Turbo Pascal run on it without problems?
Tell you what, send me a legal copy and I'll let you know.. :)
>d) Does the larger screen resolution affect programs poorly? (I know some
> programs [including the Mac desktop] can take advantage of the larger
> screen but how many other programs choke on it?)
Most programs on the Mac play by the rules. (This means they
use the Quickdraw routines to access the screen.) 99% of the Mac
programs I've tried to run on the Magic-Sac work just fine with
the expanded screen. Most exceptions will still run and be
useable, they only have the disadvantage that they won't make
use of the extra space.
>e) How expensive are Magic Sac upgrades? I've heard good things about
> how fast David Small gets bugs fixed and adds new improvements, so
> how much will it cost me to get the newer versions once I have bought
> the current one?
The price of a call to GEnie or Compuserve. I imagine you
could force a few $$ into the hands of the people at dP to get
them to send out a disk, but you can download the newest version
(or get it from a friend) free... This is because you need the
Magic-Sac cartridge to legaly run the Magic-Sac program.
--- Warning, personal-comment ---
All praise directed to Dave Small and his crew is well deserved.
The speed with which Dave has fixed bugs, sometimes within hours of
the bug report, is nothing less than fantastic. dP's policy allowing
free distribution of updates to the program (to registered owners of
Magic-Sac) is a wonderfuly refreshing attitude. Since it's only
legal to use the Magic-Sac program with a Magic-Sac cartridge, they
post the updates on national systems.
--- end of personal comments --- :)
>f) Is there a very reliable dealer of the Sac + Mac ROMs?
Who's your most reliable dealer of ST realated stuff? Go to that
person and force $$ into their hand. If you don't have a local ST
dealer, I could probably put you in touch with one of the dealers in
my area who carry the Sac.
You can often get the roms from the same dealer you buy the Sac
from. If not, you can go to your nearest Apple dealer and get the
roms from there for $30-$50.
>g) Does Mr. Small have plans of eventually getting the Sac to work
> with the latest ROM release? (Isn't that the SE version?)
He wants to, but it's not going to be soon. If he does decide to
do it, It will require almost as much work as it took to develop the
current version. Needless to say, this means LOTS and LOTS of work...
>Thanks to everyone who responds!
Glad to help...
---
John Stanley (dynasoft!john@stag.UUCP)
Software Consultant / Dynasoft Systems
--
TestingHAHN_K@DMRHRZ11.BITNET (05/17/88)
Date: 17 May 1988, 14:51:44 CET From: HAHN_K at DMRHRZ11 To: INFO-ATARI16 at SCORE Hi MagicSac-Freaks; could some friendly human being give a short summary about the printer drivers already available for the Sac? Especially I have to consider using a HP-Laserjet-compatible device. Is this possible? See you some day, Klaus.
tim@brspyr1.BRS.Com (Tim Northrup) (05/19/88)
From HAHN_K@DMRHRZ11.BITNET: > > Hi MagicSac-Freaks; > > could some friendly human being give a short summary about the > printer drivers already available for the Sac? Especially I have > to consider using a HP-Laserjet-compatible device. Is this possible? > See you some day, > Klaus. I currently use EpStart from SoftStyle -- they deliver a MagicSac version on disk in Magic format. It only works with Epson and compatible printers though (I use Panasonic 1091 with no problems). I know there is at least one other printer driver available in Magic format, but don't know the name, quality, or any details. -- Tim Northrup +------------------------------------------+ +---------------------------------+ GEnie: TNORTHRUP | UUCP: uunet!steinmetz!brspyr1!tim | Air Warrior: "Duke" | ARPA: tim@brspyr1.BRS.Com +------------------------------------------+
landay@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (07/13/88)
Could anyone send me System 3.2/Finder 5.4 on a Magic formatted disk
or electronically? I can't seem to find it anywhere.
Thanks
James A. Landay
ARPA: landay@cory.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!cory!landaypolsen@luna.UUCP (Paul Olsen) (10/06/88)
Magic Sac with roms $100
Professional Kit $300
Paul 213-973-5154 evenings
213-606-1190 10am-6:30pm P.S.T.polsen@luna.UUCP (Paul Olsen) (01/10/89)
I have two Magic Sacs with roms and latest version sw for sale for $75 each. I have two copies of VIP (GEM version) for sale for $50 each. Paul (213) 973-5154
chuckie@pro-odyssey.cts.com (Chuck Schul) (02/05/91)
i want to know all ican about it!if can use a modem with it,will it read mac disk,if not how to run software????????????etc help ---- ProLine: chuckie@pro-odyssey Internet: chuckie@pro-odyssey.cts.com UUCP: crash!pro-odyssey!chuckie ARPA: crash!pro-odyssey!chuckie@nosc.mil