emerson@gandalf.Berkeley.EDU (Emerson Mei) (01/30/91)
tari people, There is a review of the STacy in this mos/ issue of electronic musician and it's not very positive. One thing it did say was Atari software got a D grade (that is GEM, not apps) one complaint the reviewer had was that GEM required a 1/2 to 1 second pause before an initial click in a click-drag manipulation otherwise the drag would fail. Is this a problem I'm not aware of? I have a Mega & a 520 & they seem OK. If their reviewer is indeed seeing things that are ;not there perhaps everyone can write a letter to the magazine. Sorry I couldn't quote the magazine directly.
tgray@pieman.compserv.utas.edu.au (Tony Gray) (01/30/91)
In article <40711@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> emerson@gandalf.Berkeley.EDU (Emerson Mei) writes: < stuff deleted > >software got a D grade (that is GEM, not apps) one complaint the >reviewer had was that GEM required a 1/2 to 1 second pause before an >initial click in a click-drag manipulation otherwise the drag would >fail. Is this a problem I'm not aware of? I have a Mega & a 520 & >they seem OK. If their reviewer is indeed seeing things that are >;not there perhaps everyone can write a letter to the magazine. > >Sorry I couldn't quote the magazine directly. What the reviewer was probably referring to (without realising it) is the way GEM handles a double-click. The first time you click the mouse, GEM waits a preset period of time (as set in the mouse double-click speed, in the control panel) to decide whether you will make a double-click. If you haven't pressed the button again within the time frame, a single-click event is posted - if you have, it is posted as a double-click. This is quite different to the way the Mac OS (for instance) handles a double click. With the Mac, a click posts a select event immediately. If a second click is made within the double-click period, a second, double click event is posted. If you set the double-click speed of both the Mac and the Atari real slow, you can actually see that the Mac gives visual feedback immediately after the first click of a double-click (eg., an icon changes its visual appearance) whereas the Atari waits until after the second click to give visual feedback. If the magazine reviewer had set the double-click speed to the slowest setting, he (she?) would have observed the delay you mention, ie. a delay after holding the mouse down before a drag could take place. It is interesting - this single technique alone causes a large difference in feel between GEM and the Mac OS, and makes GEM seem "sluggish". Perhaps if a patch could be made to GEM to allow a single click to be posted immediately one occurs, with a second post (as a double-click) if another click was observed on the same pixel within the time period, then GEM would feel faster (or smoother). But then again... who knows what other programs would break! If you were coding your own application, it would not be too hard using the normal AES calls to simulate the Macintosh approach. Hope that helps! -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tony Gray AARNET: tgray@pieman.compserv.utas.edu.au School of Applied Computing Phone : (003) 260 366 University of Tasmania - Launceston CIS : 74010,1556
iho@cac.washington.edu (Il Oh) (01/31/91)
tgray@pieman.compserv.utas.edu.au (Tony Gray) writes: > emerson@gandalf.Berkeley.EDU (Emerson Mei) writes: [text regarding the poor grade GEM got deleted] >>Sorry I couldn't quote the magazine directly. > >What the reviewer was probably referring to (without realising it) is the >way GEM handles a double-click. The first time you click the mouse, GEM >waits a preset period of time (as set in the mouse double-click speed, in >the control panel) to decide whether you will make a double-click. If >you haven't pressed the button again within the time frame, a single-click >event is posted - if you have, it is posted as a double-click. This is >quite different to the way the Mac OS (for instance) handles a double >click. With the Mac, a click posts a select event immediately. If >a second click is made within the double-click period, a second, double >click event is posted. GEM has more serious problems than that with its double click. My father, who is 60 years old and has unsteady hands, can't double click on his 1040 if his life depended on it. I think GEM doesn't recognize a double click if the mouse is moved between the clicks, even if they occured within the required timespan. I've never seen anyone have problems double clicking on the Mac. -- "And now, adding color | Il Hwan Oh a group of anonymous, Latin-American | University of Washington, Tacoma meat-packing glitterati" | iho@cac.washington.edu -- Pink Floyd, Final Cut |
mjs@hpfcso.HP.COM (Marc Sabatella) (02/01/91)
> GEM has more serious problems than that with its double click. My father, > who is 60 years old and has unsteady hands, can't double click on his 1040 > if his life depended on it. I think GEM doesn't recognize a double click > if the mouse is moved between the clicks, even if they occured within the > required timespan. I've never seen anyone have problems double clicking > on the Mac. Uh, have you ever seen your father (or any other 60-year-old with unsteady hands) double click on a Mac? If you take your hand off the body of the mouse to do the clicks, the chance of accidentally moving it between clicks goes down. Awkward, but if his life depended on it... Your father might find a trackball invaluable here. Even the unsteadiest of clicking fingers won't move that sucker if you keep your hand off the ball. In any case, this clicking business is a pretty lame thing to center a review on. Hopefully he spent a good deal of time on quality of the hardware, application software, and price. Since the review was specifically of STacy, concentrating on STacy-specific things (like portability, the LCD screen, the trackball, etc) would also have been nice. -------------- Marc Sabatella (marc@hpmonk.fc.hp.com) Disclaimers: 2 + 2 = 3, for suitably small values of 2 Bill and Dave may not always agree with me
jvt@its.bt.co.uk (John Trickey) (02/01/91)
In article <15508@milton.u.washington.edu> iho@akbar.UUCP (Il Oh) writes: >GEM has more serious problems than that with its double click. My father, >who is 60 years old and has unsteady hands, can't double click on his 1040 >if his life depended on it. I think GEM doesn't recognize a double click >if the mouse is moved between the clicks, even if they occured within the >required timespan. I've never seen anyone have problems double clicking >on the Mac. This is somewhat drifting from the point but.... I agree that can be a serious problem. It seems that GEM takes the click on the pixel rather than the icon. A solution for your father and anyone like him is to use a tracker ball. In this you can set the pointer position and then remove your hand from the ball to click. Any movement of the unit does not alter the pointer position and so should over come the problem. The same could be achieved by lifting the mouse of the desk to click, but that is getting silly. John -- John Trickey <jvt@its.bt.co.uk> || ..!mcsun!ukc!axion!its G4REV @ GB7SUT Voice: +44 21 333 3369 #include <std/disclaimer>
PHB100@psuvm.psu.edu (02/01/91)
In article <40711@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>, emerson@gandalf.Berkeley.EDU (Emerson Mei) says: > >reviewer had was that GEM required a 1/2 to 1 second pause before an >initial click in a click-drag manipulation otherwise the drag would >fail. Is this a problem I'm not aware of? I have a Mega & a 520 & >they seem OK. If their reviewer is indeed seeing things that are > I've noticed this also...to click and drag you must ckick and hold until the icon changes to an outline only then can you drag the icon around. I can put up with it, but it is very different from the macs at work and there is always a period of adjustment of 3 or 4 attempts before I get into the new habit. ------- In the dark no one can hear the color of your eyes. Disclaimer: This is me. Do I sound like anyone else? Paul Baughman PHB100@psuvm.bitnet
gt1448b@prism.gatech.EDU (David P. Forrai) (02/02/91)
I'm a subscriber to EM and haven't seen a review of the STacy in the last
7 issues ( Aug. 90 thru Feb. 91 ). Could it be just another Atari basher?
--
David P. Forrai
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt1448b
Internet: gt1448b@prism.gatech.eduiho@cac.washington.edu (Il Oh) (02/02/91)
mjs@hpfcso.HP.COM (Marc Sabatella) writes: >Uh, have you ever seen your father (or any other 60-year-old with unsteady >hands) double click on a Mac? He has no trouble with the Mac double click. Incidentally, he uses an ST because he says it's got the only usable accounting system he's seen on a microcomputer (Best business management system). Too bad the company doesn't really do ST development any more. >If you take your hand off the body of the mouse to do the clicks, the chance of >accidentally moving it between clicks goes down. Awkward, but if his life >depended on it... Actually, it goes up. Unless you're pretty deft with your fingers (like us youngsters), you nudge the mouse when you click. I find I've been anchoring the mouse with my thumb and pinkie without thinking about it all along. >Your father might find a trackball invaluable here. Even the unsteadiest of >clicking fingers won't move that sucker if you keep your hand off the ball. The trackball is not as nice an interface as is the mouse, in my opinion. -- "And now, adding color | Il Hwan Oh a group of anonymous, Latin-American | University of Washington, Tacoma meat-packing glitterati" | iho@cac.washington.edu -- Pink Floyd, Final Cut |
erkamp@arc.ab.ca (Bob Erkamp) (02/05/91)
In article <21046@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt1448b@prism.gatech.EDU (David P. Forrai) writes: >I'm a subscriber to EM and haven't seen a review of the STacy in the last >7 issues ( Aug. 90 thru Feb. 91 ). Could it be just another Atari basher? > I think the article is actually in the Feb. edition of Keyboard? I just picked this up and noticed there is an article on the Stacy that wasn't very complimentary. Bob
chuck@mrcnext.uiuc.edu (charles bridgeland) (02/05/91)
erkamp@arc.ab.ca (Bob Erkamp) writes: >In article <21046@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt1448b@prism.gatech.EDU (David P. Forrai) writes: >>I'm a subscriber to EM and haven't seen a review of the STacy in the last >>7 issues ( Aug. 90 thru Feb. 91 ). Could it be just another Atari basher? >> >I think the article is actually in the Feb. edition of Keyboard? I just picked >this up and noticed there is an article on the Stacy that wasn't very >complimentary. >Bob ------------------------ i saw that review. Carter Sholtz cmplained about the keyboard feel. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- chuck bridgeland---anarchoRepublican --don't forget, we surround _them_, not the other way around" chuck@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu hire me so I can quit this pit. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
mspacek@fquest.fidonet.org (Mark Spacek) (02/06/91)
Seems to me that the length of time that you have to wait until you can drag an icon depends on how you have the mouse click response time set in the control panel. It certainly doesn't take that long on MY system to be able to drag an icon, I have the click response time set to 1, 0 being the fastest. If its taking too long, try changing this setting, if you can click the mouse buttons that fast comfortably. As for the business of people with unsteady hands not being able to double click with an Atari ST mouse. Well, I just don't buy this about having to click on the same pixel that has been suggested. I intentionally moved the mouse between clicks (many times) and it worked fine. If someone can use a Mac mouse fine and not the Atari mouse then I would wonder if its because of the different style of clicking. Unless I'm wrong, I think that a Mac mouse looks for the time lapse between the upbeat of the first click and the downbeat of the second click to sense a double click. In other words, you could press the button, hold it a while, release it and click again. That would work. But on the Atari ST, it measures between the two downbeats and that would not work. I just can't believe that anyone who could double-click on a Mac mouse couldn't also do it on an ST mouse with the click response time set slow enough for them. Now, they might not LIKE it cause it doesn't work quite the same as the Mac, but I can't believe that they couldn't do it. Maybe so, but I just can't see it... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The following opinions are my own and not those of anyone else who might be registered on fquest.fidonet.org. All flames can be sent to alt.flames since we don't read that here. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
iho@cac.washington.edu (Il Oh) (02/07/91)
mspacek@fquest.fidonet.org (Mark Spacek) writes: >moved the mouse between clicks (many times) and it worked fine. If >someone can use a Mac mouse fine and not the Atari mouse then I would >wonder if its because of the different style of clicking. Unless I'm >wrong, I think that a Mac mouse looks for the time lapse between the >upbeat of the first click and the downbeat of the second click to sense a >double click. In other words, you could press the button, hold it a >while, release it and click again. That would work. But on the Atari >ST, it measures between the two downbeats and that would not work. I >just can't believe that anyone who could double-click on a Mac mouse >couldn't also do it on an ST mouse with the click response time set slow >enough for them. Now, they might not LIKE it cause it doesn't work quite >the same as the Mac, but I can't believe that they couldn't do it. Maybe >so, but I just can't see it... I was merely posting an observation, not offering technical explanations. What I said about not moving the mouse between clicks was also an observation. However, it IS a fact that it's much easier to double click on a Mac than on a ST. I use one at work and the other at home. -- "And now, adding color | Il Hwan Oh a group of anonymous, Latin-American | University of Washington, Tacoma meat-packing glitterati" | iho@cac.washington.edu -- Pink Floyd, Final Cut |
ekrimen@ecst.csuchico.edu (Ed Krimen) (02/07/91)
iho@cac.washington.edu (Il Oh) writes: - However, it IS a fact that it's much easier to double click on a Mac - ^^^^ - than on a ST. I use one at work and the other at home. Sounds more like an opinion to me. -- Ed Krimen ............................................... ||| Video Production Major, California State University, Chico ||| INTERNET: ekrimen@ecst.csuchico.edu FREENET: al661 / | \ SysOp, Fuji BBS: 916-894-1261 FIDONET: 1:119/4.0
mspacek@fquest.fidonet.org (Mark Spacek) (02/07/91)
mspacek@fquest.fidonet.org (Mark Spacek) writes: > Seems to me that the length of time that you have to wait until you > can drag an icon depends on how you have the mouse click response time > set in the control panel. It certainly doesn't take that long on MY > system to be able to drag an icon, I have the click response time set to > 1, 0 being the fastest. If its taking too long, try changing this > setting, if you can click the mouse buttons that fast comfortably. As I just realized that I was some absorbed with the issue of having to double click on one pixel that I didn't realize that I was totally wrong here in reference to clicking and dragging. There is a delay before the icon is highlighted and you can drag it (although you can actually start to drag before its highlighted) that probably has nothing to do with the click response setting. It doesn't bother me that much, and I don't think it takes even a full second, but it is there. I would tend to agree that the way the Mac interface handles both click-and-drag, and double clicking is a better, easier for most folks. But, I don't think the ST way is so bad that it deserves extreme criticism. Oh well, just thought I would admit my mistake before someone called me on it (if they haven't already).... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The following opinions are my own and not those of anyone else who might be registered on fquest.fidonet.org. All flames can be sent to alt.flames since we don't read that here. ----------------------------------------------------------------------