rrwood@contact.uucp (roy wood) (02/09/91)
So, if it is true that Apple no longer allows the sale of Mac ROMs, is the Spectre GCR dead? Or are we about to see a sudden boom in pirated ROMs? I gather that the Spectre has to be modified a little to accept EPROMs, but it's a minor mod at most.... -Roy Wood
cummins@unx2.ucc.okstate.edu (John Cummins) (02/12/91)
>Well, I have heard that a company has successfully cloned the Mac ROMs, >opening the doors to a flood of Mac clones. I don't know the name or >anything though, but this might be a ray of sunlight to the Mac emulation >world. > Details!!!!!! please? anyone!!!!
steve@thelake.mn.org (Steve Yelvington) (02/12/91)
[cummins@unx2.ucc.okstate.ed writes ... ] >>Well, I have heard that a company has successfully cloned the Mac ROMs, >>opening the doors to a flood of Mac clones. I don't know the name or >>anything though, but this might be a ray of sunlight to the Mac emulation >>world. >> > > Details!!!!!! > > please? anyone!!!! The following is an excerpt from the Minnesota Atari ST user group newsletter, which goes in the mail tomorrow (assuming I get the laser printing done). ------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE LAST WORD By Steve Yelvington Well, somebody's finally done what should have been done a long time ago: written a genuine alternative Macintosh-compatible operating system. Not just a Mac emulator. A complete Mac replacement. It's described in the Jan. 28 issue of InfoWorld, a weekly personal computer trade magazine. A company called Nutek Computers Inc. has cooked up replacements for Mac ROMs and the disk-based portion of the Mac software (system and multitasking Multifinder). It also has three custom chips that can form the heart of a Mac-compatible, and it's looking for companies to produce the hardware. This is different from Dave Small's Spectre, Magic Sac, AMAX and other Mac emulators for the Atari ST and the Amiga. They require you to track down a genuine Mac ROM chip set and a copy of Apple's system software. Apple has suddenly clamped down on Mac ROM chips, and Apple dealers can get them only by turning in the old chips they're replacing -- or by paying a whopping surcharge. Apple seems determined to keep Spectre et al from catching up with current top-of-the-line Macs. Nutek's technology sidesteps the whole problem by providing its own alternative software, developed in a ``clean room'' environment based on Apple's specifications without seeing a line of Apple's code. And although it runs Mac software, it avoids ``look and feel'' copyright infringement by not looking like a Mac. How can that be? Well, Nutek has licensed the Motif user interface from the Open Software Foundation. OSF is pushing Motif as a friendly look for new Unix systems. IBM has adopted Motif for OS/2. And Geoworks has adopted Motif for GEOS on smaller PC clones. It's an attractive and well thought-out windowing system. When a Mac application opens a window, it gets a Motif window. When it puts up a menu bar, it gets a Motif menu bar, attached to a window instead of glued to the top of the screen. This is actually easier to understand than Mac Multifinder's method of changing the content of the menu bar as you switch among concurrent applications. I haven't seen any of Nutek's software running, but the pictures sure look good. Dave Small has said he's not interested in making a Spectre that can use 256K Mac II ROMs, the current state of the art. One reason may be that they're darned near impossible to get. (There is a report that Apple is considering licensing Mac ROMs to other companies for $500 to $1,000 a pop). If Nutek makes its alternative system technology available at a modest price, the whole picture may change. ----------------------------------------------------------------- (The rest of the column goes on to discuss TT and Apple pricing, and is therefore omitted here.) ---- Steve Yelvington / P. O. Box 38 / Marine on St. Croix, MN 55047 USA INTERNET: steve@thelake.mn.org UUCP: plains!umn-cs!thelake!steve
dwh@ataritx.uucp (Dave Hanna) (02/12/91)
In article <3743.27b5839e@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu> rlcollins@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Ryan 'Gozar' Collins) writes: >In article <1991Feb9.140414.23054@contact.uucp>, rrwood@contact.uucp (roy wood) writes: >> So, if it is true that Apple no longer allows the sale of Mac ROMs, is >> the Spectre GCR dead? > >Well, I have heard that a company has successfully cloned the Mac ROMs, >opening the doors to a flood of Mac clones. I don't know the name or >anything though, but this might be a ray of sunlight to the Mac emulation >world. According to Electronic Engineering Times (Jan. 28, 1991, p. 10) "Startup claims legal Mac-clone chip set", the company, Nutek Computers, claims to have developed a "Mac-like OS" in a software "clean room", that is, where the developers had no access to Apple code. The question yet to be answered is whether or not their approach will actually withstand a legal challenge. In order to avoid the "look and feel" issue, the OS uses a Motif interface instead of the Mac desktop. >Ryan 'Gozar' Collins rlcollins@miavx1.BITNET -- Dave Hanna Atari Microsystems Corp UUCP ...!texsun!letni!ataritx!dwh ...!ames!atari!dhanna
hojo@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (HC Johnson) (02/13/91)
In article <1991Feb11.202327.3702@unx2.ucc.okstate.edu>, cummins@unx2.ucc.okstate.edu (John Cummins) writes: > >Well, I have heard that a company has successfully cloned the Mac ROMs, > >opening the doors to a flood of Mac clones. I don't know the name or > >anything though, but this might be a ray of sunlight to the Mac emulation > >world. > > > > Details!!!!!! > > please? anyone!!!! As I read it, this is a startup company; and they hope to succeed. Likely these Clean room designed roms will be released with the $500 TT. Ha! Seriously, I am afraid that GBS is soon to be in big trouble. Howard Johnson ATT BELL LABS att!lzsc!hcj hcj@lzsc.att.com
saj@chinet.chi.il.us (Stephen Jacobs) (02/13/91)
In article <1991Feb11.202327.3702@unx2.ucc.okstate.edu> cummins@unx2.ucc.okstate.edu (John Cummins) writes: >>Well, I have heard that a company has successfully cloned the Mac ROMs, >>opening the doors to a flood of Mac clones. I don't know the name or >>anything though, but this might be a ray of sunlight to the Mac emulation >>world. >> > >Details!!!!!! > >please? anyone!!!! Am I anyone? On the cover of Infoworld, dated Jan 28, 1991, lower right: Story about how Nutek Computers is coming out with Mac clones based on their own ROMS, developed under cleanroom conditions (I hope everyone knows how that works...the people who code the ROMS never see Apple code, but the people who check compatibility have whatever they want). The other gimmick is that screen displays are equivalent rather than identical, and that some of the system software may be internally different in their machines. Steve saj@chinet.chi.il.us
nut@nuthaus.UUCP (Adam G. Tilghman) (02/13/91)
In article <1991Feb9.140414.23054@contact.uucp> rrwood@contact.uucp (roy wood) writes: > So, if it is true that Apple no longer allows the sale of Mac ROMs, is > the Spectre GCR dead? Or are we about to see a sudden boom in pirated > ROMs? I gather that the Spectre has to be modified a little to accept > EPROMs, but it's a minor mod at most.... > Perhaps with the rumoured Mac OS clone coming soon at a dealer near you, Spectre will be saved. It seems to me that an intelligent company selling a cloned edition of the Mac ROMs would not halt their distribution to a paying customer (maybe GBS could even make the entire thing into a card and not bother with the cart!). > -Roy Wood -- Adam -- = Adam G. Tilghman - SysOp/WizOp/Janitor of Eleusesthai BBS = = USnail: 116 Escanyo Dr., So. San Francisco, CA, 94080-4134 USA = = Voice Phone: +1 415 873 3091 / BBS Phone: +1 415 871 9451 = = nut@nuthaus.UUCP {hoptoad,well}!wet!nuthaus!nut nut@wet.UUCP =
rrd@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Ray Depew) (02/13/91)
>>Well, I have heard that a company has successfully cloned the Mac ROMs, >>opening the doors to a flood of Mac clones. I don't know the name or >>anything though, but this might be a ray of sunlight to the Mac emulation >>world. >> > >Details!!!!!! > >please? anyone!!!! Well, it was in one of the recent issues of <either> PCWeek <or> InfoWorld, a very small article on page 1 or 2. I don't even remember the name of the company, but they were tickled that they'd actually done it. At this time, they're only gloating about the technical feat (of cloning the ROMs by reverse engineering rather than electro-Xeroxing), and they don't have a development plan yet. I think they said something like "six months" or "next year." Perhaps if Dave Small is listening, he can add something... -- Ray rrd@hpfitst1.hp.com (You know Dave's gotta be keeping close tabs on them!)
millert@tramp.Colorado.EDU (MILLER TODD C) (02/14/91)
In article <1991Feb12.200517.18167@chinet.chi.il.us> saj@chinet.chi.il.us (Stephen Jacobs) writes: > >Am I anyone? On the cover of Infoworld, dated Jan 28, 1991, lower right: >Story about how Nutek Computers is coming out with Mac clones based on their >own ROMS, developed under cleanroom conditions (I hope everyone knows how >that works...the people who code the ROMS never see Apple code, but the people >who check compatibility have whatever they want). The other gimmick is that >screen displays are equivalent rather than identical, and that some of the >system software may be internally different in their machines. And they licenced the motif GUI to avoid any look + feel lawsuits... - Todd -- Todd C. Miller | "But all the politiCIAns now millert@tramp.Colorado.EDU | They have no excuse al804@cleveland.Freenet.Edu | They just hide behind their power University of Colorado @ Boulder | And keep us from the truth" - Roger McGuinn
rrd@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Ray Depew) (02/14/91)
After a couple of postings from > Dave Hanna Atari Microsystems Corp > UUCP ...!texsun!letni!ataritx!dwh > ...!ames!atari!dhanna situated in Dallas, South Colorado, my curiosity has gotten the best of me: What's the difference between AMS and Atari Galactic HQ? Does the Dallas gang make Portfolios, or spy on Tandy, or ... ? Just curious... Ray Depew HP ICBD -- IC's by Bill and Dave rrd@hpfitst1.hp.com
carter@cat27.cs.wisc.edu (Gregory Carter) (02/16/91)
nut@nuthaus.UUCP {hoptoad,well}!wet!nuthaus!nut nut@wet.UUCP writes:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps with the rumoured Mac OS clone coming soon at a dealer
near you, Spectre will be saved. It seems to me that an intelligent
company selling a cloned edition of the Mac ROMs would not halt
their distribution to a paying customer (maybe GBS could even make
the entire thing into a card and not bother with the cart!).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I really don't think so. First of all the implementation is
not really ST accessable. Mainly because as so many other people
have pointed out it uses the Motif/X Release 4 interface which is
so large that you people would need 4 megs for just a good (complete)
implementation. And a 8Mhz 68000 running X is something I don't
want to think about using.
What it does do is open up the possiblility of Mac programs being
transportable to the mainframe world, perhaps with a little rewrite
here and there, Mac program could be running on the nearest super mini,
386/030 machine nearest you!
Really, the MAC ROM problem is quite a nasty problem. I have tried
to call gadgets inc many a time to cancel my order as:
Spectre GCR 299 + MAC ROMs 273 = ~600, another hundred I could get
a Mac Classic at dealer cost. And from what I here 273 is an excellent
price for the ROMS.
I am really steamed. Apple is engaging in guerilla warfare and
I am going to get my ROMS APPLE if I have to either BY THEM LEGALLY
or obtain them WITH OTHER MEANS at MY DISPOSAL.
I really wish more guys like Denis Hayes existed so that we could
REALLY give Apple some blows, economically. There is absolutely no
competition between Apple and other companies because Apple decided
everything Xerox Park worked on was actually theirs to use, and no one elses.
People are forced to buy Apple technology at premium prices. I think
the Supreme court should tell Apple that the technology to transform
Xerox Park's work should be PUBLIC DOMAIN, after all, look what happened
to AT&T. Now we have competition, we can actually use phone lines
now with 9600 baud modems because these companies worked to improve
their communications equipment.
---For a safer world, I would like to see thousands of people do what
Denis Hayes did, Apple would be forced to drop its shorts and eat'em.
Or how about an IIfx for 1800.00 bucks?
--Gregory
bill@mwca.UUCP (Bill Sheppard) (02/19/91)
In article <5688084@nuthaus.UUCP> nut@nuthaus.UUCP (Adam G. Tilghman) writes: > Perhaps with the rumoured Mac OS clone coming soon at a dealer >near you, Spectre will be saved. It seems to me that an intelligent >company selling a cloned edition of the Mac ROMs would not halt >their distribution to a paying customer (maybe GBS could even make >the entire thing into a card and not bother with the cart!). On the other hand, I suspect the cloned Mac ROMs will be the 256K ROMs, which both Spectre and the ST cartridge port are currently unable to deal with...I too, however, hope a reasonable solution will present itself to keep Gadgets viable. -- ############################################################################## # Bill Sheppard -- bills@microware.com -- {uunet,sun}!mcrware!mwca!bill # # Microware Systems Corporation --- OS-9: Seven generations beyond OS/2!! # ######Opinions expressed are my own, though you'd be wise to adopt them!######
vsnyder@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Van Snyder) (02/19/91)
In article <1991Feb16.022040.15727@daffy.cs.wisc.edu> carter@cat27.cs.wisc.edu (Gregory Carter) writes: >... There is absolutely no competition between Apple and other companies >because Apple decided everything Xerox Park worked on was actually theirs to >use, and no one elses. The situation isn't so devious. Apple actually went to the trouble to LICENSE the mouse/icon/desktop ideas from Xerox/PARC. -- vsnyder@jato.Jpl.Nasa.Gov ames!elroy!jato!vsnyder vsnyder@jato.uucp
steve@thelake.mn.org (Steve Yelvington) (02/19/91)
[carter@cat27.cs.wisc.edu writes ... ] > I really don't think so. First of all the implementation is > not really ST accessable. Mainly because as so many other people > have pointed out it uses the Motif/X Release 4 interface which is > so large that you people would need 4 megs for just a good (complete) > implementation. And a 8Mhz 68000 running X is something I don't > want to think about using. Whoa! The Motif interface is not X! It's a user interface standard -- a ``look and feel.'' It's just a legal dodge to avoid Apple's lawyers. Implementing Motif doesn't require adhering to the programming strategies used on Unix workstations. Geoworks Ensemble licensed Motif for its windowing system and related applications designed for the 8088-era Intel-based PC clones. From all accounts it's small, fast, and what PC GEM should have been. ---- Steve Yelvington / P. O. Box 38 / Marine on St. Croix, MN 55047 USA INTERNET: steve@thelake.mn.org UUCP: plains!umn-cs!thelake!steve