mforget@nro.cs.athabascau.ca (Michel Forget) (05/02/91)
> Personal Pascal - distributed by ICD. It is ok, but I would not pay full > price for it. It cannot accept procedures as parameters, a feature > which is heavily used in scientific code. It is a dated product, very > nice back in '87, not so nice now. It can sometimes be found in the > bargin bin for $30. You should also try to find a (used) copy of > Tacklebox ST, which extends Personal Pascal somewhat and provided > excellent documentation for ST programming (it is a good one to find > no matter what compiler you buy, although it was specifically designed > for use with Personal Pascal). I would just like to correct you on one point. Personal Pascal has been coninually upgraded since its release, and the bugs present in earlier versions have been corrected. You CAN pass procedures and functions as parameters now, and the in-code .RSC features now work better than ever. The current version is 2.05, and the program is far from "dated". I use it at home to write programs for my Computer Processing Class, which uses Turbo Pascal. I haven't seen Prospero Pascal yet, though, so I won't comment on it. Just out of curiosity, why would a British company last any longer than an American of Canadian company? ICD is a solid company that supports all of its products. They are also a thriving company. << ersys!mforget@nro.cs.athabascau.ca >> << or in the language that PEOPLE use >> << Michel Forget...:) >>
hunt@jjmhome.UUCP (Tad J. Hunt) (05/03/91)
I think the subject says it all.
1. Where can I find a pascal (good) compiler for the ST,
and
is it commercial?
if so, how much
else
where on the net can i find it? (a.a doesn't seem to have it)
2. This doesn't have to do with the subject, but if i wanted to learn C, how
much work would it be for me to do so? (it took little effort to learn
pascal, and i know C is somewhat the same... i looked at it before) and
what would be a good book to get me started with it? (with sozobon C)
thanx!
Tad Hunt
+why should I have a .sig? and send all the 'i''s through an upcase convert :-)boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (05/04/91)
In article <10179@jjmhome.UUCP>, hunt@jjmhome.UUCP (Tad J. Hunt) writes: >I think the subject says it all. > > 1. Where can I find a pascal (good) compiler for the ST, > and > is it commercial? > if so, how much > else > where on the net can i find it? (a.a doesn't seem to have it) > There are at least 2 choices. Personal Pascal - distributed by ICD. It is ok, but I would not pay full price for it. It cannot accept procedures as parameters, a feature which is heavily used in scientific code. It is a dated product, very nice back in '87, not so nice now. It can sometimes be found in the bargin bin for $30. You should also try to find a (used) copy of Tacklebox ST, which extends Personal Pascal somewhat and provided excellent documentation for ST programming (it is a good one to find no matter what compiler you buy, although it was specifically designed for use with Personal Pascal). Prospero Pascal - a much better choice. Rock solid, full pascal implementation. Good accuracy. Well supported (the company is British, and therefore has a much better chance of being around for awhile). I have seen it for $89 from Joppa Computer Products (1-800-876-6040). > 2. This doesn't have to do with the subject, but if i wanted to learn C, how > much work would it be for me to do so? (it took little effort to learn > pascal, and i know C is somewhat the same... i looked at it before) and > what would be a good book to get me started with it? (with sozobon C) > As a sub note, all Prospero compilers (C, Pascal, FORTRAN) can share object files, and have the same touchy feelie front end. Also, the C and Pascal (I do not know about the FORTRAN) are ANSI. -- ---------------------------------+------------------------------------- Mickey R. Boyd | "Kirk to Enterprise. All clear FSU Computer Science | down here. Beam down Technical Support Group | yeoman Rand and a six-pack . ." email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | ---------------------------------+-------------------------------------
REEVES@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Terry Reeves) (05/04/91)
Actually, the sheets I have from Prospero say that Fortran and C are ANSI
standard. The Pascal compiler follows the ISO standard. The data sheet says,
"The Prospero Pascal for GEM programmer's environment is a complete
implementation if the ISO Pascal standard for the Atari ST." If memory serves,
I believe that Personal Pascal follows the ISO standard more closely that the
ANSI standard. This along with the almost too numerous to mention extensions
that Borland made to Pascal makes for real fun when trying to move code from
an IBM Turbo Pascal environment to a Pascal environment on the ST. So, if you
need to have transportable programs, you might look into Prospero's IBM Pascal
compilers as well.
Terry
Disclaimer: The above are my opinions. They are not related to the official
policies of SLAC, Stanford University, the DOE, or the U.S. government.gaertner@tertius.in-berlin.de (05/05/91)
In article <10179@jjmhome.UUCP>, hunt@jjmhome.UUCP (Tad J. Hunt) writes: > I think the subject says it all. > > 1. Where can I find a pascal (good) compiler for the ST, > and > is it commercial? > if so, how much > else > where on the net can i find it? (a.a doesn't seem to have it) > > thanx! > > Tad Hunt > > +why should I have a .sig? and send all the 'i''s through an upcase convert :-) Here in germany I am aware of 3 Pascal compilers, all commercial. I have experience with the compiler of Prospero and I like him. As all Prospero languages, Pascal is a complete development kit, including a editor, compiler, library manager, source code debugger. The kit is full integrated in GEM, well documented (in english :-) and conforms to the standard (level 0, no conformant arrays).. Optional you can get libraries for 68881. Prospero has distributor in the US. I have no experience with the other compilers; all I know is that the doc's are in german. Ralf P.S. Does anybody know, whether there is a company working on a Pascal compiler for the new IEEE stamndard ? ---- Ralf Gaertner gaertner@venus.rz-berlin.mpg.de FHI Berlin
gaertner@tertius.in-berlin.de (05/05/91)
In article <1991May3.134817.17871@mailer.cc.fsu.edu>, boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes: > In article <10179@jjmhome.UUCP>, hunt@jjmhome.UUCP (Tad J. Hunt) writes: [stuff deleted} > > As a sub note, all Prospero compilers (C, Pascal, FORTRAN) can share object > files, and have the same touchy feelie front end. Also, the C and Pascal > (I do not know about the FORTRAN) are ANSI. > Fortran is also ANSI; I had no problems running programs of all 3 languages on my Atari and a VAX (well, if you don't use such things as INCLUDE or #ifdef :-). Ralf --- Ralf Gaertner gaertner@venus.rz-berlin.mpg.de FHI Berlin
boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (05/05/91)
In article <cH7a25w164w@ersys.uucp>, ersys!mforget@nro.cs.athabascau.ca (Michel Forget) writes: > > >I would just like to correct you on one point. Personal Pascal has been >coninually upgraded since its release, and the bugs present in earlier >versions have been corrected. You CAN pass procedures and functions as >parameters now, and the in-code .RSC features now work better than ever. >The current version is 2.05, and the program is far from "dated". I use >it at home to write programs for my Computer Processing Class, which uses >Turbo Pascal. I haven't seen Prospero Pascal yet, though, so I won't >comment on it. > Well harumph!! I never got such information from ICD (I am a registered owner), and I got the impression from the last time I called them that they were not putting any more time into it. I stand corrected, and will contact ICD asap for my new copy. Thanks for pointing it out. >Just out of curiosity, why would a British company last any longer than >an American of Canadian company? ICD is a solid company that supports >all of its products. They are also a thriving company. > Because american ST software folks are getting fewer every day. The number of great products that no longer have support because of bankruptcy is rather large, and is a shame. From the british ST magazines I read, I do not get "The end is near" type impressions that I get from US based publications. I see neat new hardware/software being offered, with large full color ads. In the US, I keep getting "Sorry, we do not support the Atari ST" over the phone (if the phone number still exists, that is). Just a couple off the top of my head: Mark Williams C - no more support, working on Coherent Wordup 3.0 - Company bankrupt Timeworks - No longer updating US versions (but are still updating UK ones). Michtron - pushing up daisys. . . . . . . . . . . Now, when I sink money into a professional application, I make sure that it is a. European, or b. Selling well in Europe. Obviously this is IMHO. If I did not state this in my original post, it was a booboo. Also, I wish to note that stateside utilities seem to be better than what is offered elsewhere (Neodesk, the Codeheads, UISIII, etc). -- ---------------------------------+------------------------------------- Mickey R. Boyd | "Kirk to Enterprise. All clear FSU Computer Science | down here. Beam down Technical Support Group | yeoman Rand and a six-pack . ." email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | ---------------------------------+-------------------------------------
ekrimen@ecst.csuchico.edu (Ed Krimen) (05/06/91)
In article <1991May5.124501.14339@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes: > >Because american ST software folks are getting fewer every day. Yes, you may call me optimist, but I see the opposite. The number A >of great products that no longer have support because of bankruptcy is rather >large, and is a shame. From the british ST magazines I read, I do not get >"The end is near" type impressions that I get from US based publications. Geez, Mickey. What publications do you read for ST information?! STart? I wouldn't even use the magazine to line the bottom of my bird cage. I wouldn't miss STart if it was gone tomorrow. There are much better magazines to read in the US for ST information, such as ST Informer, Current Notes, Atari Interface, but I know you've heard this before. Simply because STart is going downhill, which they attribute to the lame ST market, doesn't mean the ST market is going with them. They're going downhill because theirr magazine sucks. (Hmm, now what happens if you don't read STart? :^) >I see neat new hardware/software being offered, with large full color ads. >In the US, I keep getting "Sorry, we do not support the Atari ST" over the >phone (if the phone number still exists, that is). Just a couple off the >top of my head: > > Mark Williams C - no more support, working on Coherent This isn't new. It's been like this for a while. BTW, what about Turbo C and all the other compilers? Because one company bails on the ST market doesn't mean the US market is doomed. > Wordup 3.0 - Company bankrupt Who's going to buy a buggy, slow program? You? Me? That's why the company's bankrupt. BTW, I've heard Atari picked up WordUp 3.0. What about all the other word processor support? WordPerfect? Goldleaf and Wordflair? DTP: Pagestream? They're all US companies and are doing pretty well in the ST arena. However, I'll agree that the ST is lacking a good word processor, on the lines of Word for the Mac. We'll see what happens with Wordflair II. Anyone want to post a demo of it at atari.archive? A -- ||| Ed Krimen [ekrimen@ecst.csuchico.edu or al661@cleveland.freenet.edu] ||| Video Production Major, California State University, Chico / | \ SysOp, Fuji BBS: 916-894-1261
boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (05/06/91)
In article <1991May05.231723.656@ecst.csuchico.edu>, ekrimen@ecst.csuchico.edu (Ed Krimen) writes: > >Geez, Mickey. What publications do you read for ST information?! STart? >I wouldn't even use the magazine to line the bottom of my bird cage. I >wouldn't miss STart if it was gone tomorrow. There are much better magazines >to read in the US for ST information, such as ST Informer, Current Notes, >Atari Interface, but I know you've heard this before. I read ST Informer, Current Notes, and occasionally STart (but I don't buy STart!!). >Simply because STart is going downhill, which they attribute to the lame >ST market, doesn't mean the ST market is going with them. They're going >downhill because theirr magazine sucks. They are going down hill because they are not making money. >>I see neat new hardware/software being offered, with large full color ads. >>In the US, I keep getting "Sorry, we do not support the Atari ST" over the >>phone (if the phone number still exists, that is). Just a couple off the >>top of my head: >> >> Mark Williams C - no more support, working on Coherent > >This isn't new. It's been like this for a while. And a call to MWC has confirmed that it is still like this. Why? Hmmmm . . . >BTW, what about Turbo C >and all the other compilers? Because one company bails on the ST market >doesn't mean the US market is doomed. Turbo C is a German product. Borland would not produce an ST compiler. Borland also recently "took away" their name from the product (according to a recent post to c.s.a.st). > >> Wordup 3.0 - Company bankrupt > >Who's going to buy a buggy, slow program? You? Me? That's why the >company's bankrupt. BTW, I've heard Atari picked up WordUp 3.0. Me. I just bought a used copy of the last upgrade. I find it to be a fine program, with the most usable dictionary/thesaurus I have used. I feel that this product was headed for greatness before the company got hacked. >What about all the other word processor support? WordPerfect? Goldleaf >and Wordflair? DTP: Pagestream? They're all US companies and are doing >pretty well in the ST arena. However, I'll agree that the ST is lacking >a good word processor, on the lines of Word for the Mac. We'll see what >happens with Wordflair II. Anyone want to post a demo of it at atari.archive? > Wordperfect - have you glanced at the PC version lately? I would not call what WP has been providing the ST version "support". A few bug fixes every 2 years is what I would call it . . . Pagestream - a fine product, which I own and use (I didn't say it was all bad, sheesh :-). MS Word for the Mac - the closest thing I have seen is Wordup 3.0 (In it's last update). As a matter of fact, I prefer Wordup. Wordflair II - I could be totally mistaken, but I believe Goldleaf is a British company. Ok, flame off. Perhaps my prose gave the impression of ST doom in the US. This is not exactly true. I just think that the ST will never have a huge user base in the states. Atari has blew it too many times for this. However, it does have a small user base, the best PD software quality I have seen for any system, a few niches (music, small DTP stuff, PIP Copy Centers), some great graphic demoes (with more every day), some of the best games known to man, and does have a selection of robust powerful applications. Call me weird, but I kind of like it this way. Less stuff to wade through, and the gems are easier to find. However, the "robust powerful applications" I am referring to get that way through company support. What I suggested in my previous post is that a european company (producing a professional product for the ST) would be more likely to be around for the duration. May I point to MWC as an example? It was/is considered one of the better C offerings for the ST in the states. Why then was it taken off the update list? I bet Prospero sells more copies of their compiler in europe than MWC does here. That is why I will buy Prospero C instead of MWC. I still recommend that anyone getting ready to put $80-$100 in a compiler to purchase Prospero, or Turbo, or Lattice, or any of the other european compilers over Laser, MWC, Personal Pascal, etc. I happen to like upgrades and updates :-). Of course, if an American product is better, and looks to already be stable, and does not inherently require lots of company support, I will buy it (mom, apple pie, etc). Just trying to protect my $$$$$. The above and the previous post was IMHO. Have a nice day. -- ---------------------------------+------------------------------------- Mickey R. Boyd | "Kirk to Enterprise. All clear FSU Computer Science | down here. Beam down Technical Support Group | yeoman Rand and a six-pack . ." email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | ---------------------------------+-------------------------------------
vsnyder@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Van Snyder) (05/07/91)
In article <1991May3.134817.17871@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes: >As a sub note, all Prospero compilers (C, Pascal, FORTRAN) can share object >files, and have the same touchy feelie front end. Also, the C and Pascal >(I do not know about the FORTRAN) are ANSI. Prospero Fortran is ANSI X3.9-1978 compatible. The arithmetic is IEEE format, but doesn't work like IEEE says it should - the fraction seems to have one less bit than it ought, and there are some other quirks. I discovered this by running PARANOIA, which I got from NETLIB. A limitation I encountered was that a program unit couldn't have more than 32k of instruction space. -- vsnyder@jato.Jpl.Nasa.Gov ames!elroy!jato!vsnyder vsnyder@jato.uucp
vsnyder@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Van Snyder) (05/07/91)
In article <1991May5.124501.14339@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes: >>Just out of curiosity, why would a British company last any longer than >>an American of Canadian company? ICD is a solid company that supports >>all of its products. They are also a thriving company. >> > >Because american ST software folks are getting fewer every day. The number >of great products that no longer have support because of bankruptcy is rather >large, and is a shame. From the british ST magazines I read, I do not get >"The end is near" type impressions that I get from US based publications.... > > Mark Williams C - no more support, working on Coherent > Wordup 3.0 - Company bankrupt > Timeworks - No longer updating US versions (but are still updating UK ones). > Michtron - pushing up daisys. > . . . . . > . . . . . > >Now, when I sink money into a professional application, I make sure that it is > a. European, or > b. Selling well in Europe. > What about TDI? Did you leave them off your list of bankrupt former ST software suppliers because they were European? -- vsnyder@jato.Jpl.Nasa.Gov ames!elroy!jato!vsnyder vsnyder@jato.uucp
boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (05/07/91)
In article <1991May6.203721.5391@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>, vsnyder@jato.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Van Snyder) writes: >What about TDI? Did you leave them off your list of bankrupt former ST software >suppliers because they were European? > Well, since the list was supposed to show examples of _US_ software companies, that is precisely why I left TDI off. Since I bought TDI Modula2, I will stifle any snide comments . . . . -- ---------------------------------+------------------------------------- Mickey R. Boyd | "Kirk to Enterprise. All clear FSU Computer Science | down here. Beam down Technical Support Group | yeoman Rand and a six-pack . ." email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | ---------------------------------+-------------------------------------
neil@cs.hw.ac.uk (Neil Forsyth) (05/07/91)
In article <1991May5.124501.14339@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes: > Timeworks - No longer updating US versions (but are still updating UK ones). Hardly. They just did a panic fix to make it work with the TT and maybe fixed a few horror bugs while they were at it. Timeworks is static. The PC version isn't though and they are pushing the followup Desk Press. +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ! DISCLAIMER:Unless otherwise stated, the above comments are entirely my own ! ! ! ! Neil Forsyth JANET: neil@uk.ac.hw.cs ! ! Dept. of Computer Science ARPA: neil@cs.hw.ac.uk ! ! Heriot-Watt University UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!neil ! ! Edinburgh, Scotland, UK "That was never 5 upgrades!" ! +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
pbh@jake.tmc.edu (Patrick Haggood) (05/08/91)
In article <1991May5.214847.19224@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes: > >I still recommend that anyone getting ready to put $80-$100 in a >compiler to purchase Prospero, or Turbo, or Lattice, or any of the other >european compilers over Laser, MWC, Personal Pascal, etc. I happen to like >upgrades and updates :-). Of course, if an American product is better, and >looks to already be stable, and does not inherently require lots of company >support, I will buy it (mom, apple pie, etc). Just trying to protect my >$$$$$. Actually, I own MWC and have pretty much settled on it. It really depends on your use for the compiler. MWC seems to be the best Unix-compatible compiler available for the ST (this side of GCC, but I humbly put forth that only crazy people use it without 4M, and I don't have 4M). If I were developing software for GEM on the Atari, I'd probably choose something different like Prospero, Laser or Turbo C. >The above and the previous post was IMHO. Have a nice day. > Mickey R. Boyd | "Kirk to Enterprise. All clear -- Patrick B. Haggood Wayne STate University Detroit, MI Physics - Class of 1991 (-2?)