boyd@pipe.cs.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (04/16/91)
My friend managed to get his external Supra HD connected to his TT
(which has an internal SCSI device). The TT differentiates between
SCSI and ASCI devices. The internal drive is set at SCSI 0, so my
friend set his Supra at SCSI 1, so they would not confict. This
turned out to be the problem. BOTH drives had to be set to SCSI 0
to work. Extremely weird. Anyone have an explination?
--
---------------------------------+-------------------------------------
Mickey R. Boyd | "Kirk to Enterprise. All clear
FSU Computer Science | down here. Beam down
Technical Support Group | yeoman Rand and a six-pack . ."
email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu |
---------------------------------+-------------------------------------hyc@hanauma.jpl.nasa.gov (Howard Chu) (04/17/91)
In article <1991Apr16.042133.20872@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu writes: >My friend managed to get his external Supra HD connected to his TT >(which has an internal SCSI device). The TT differentiates between >SCSI and ASCI devices. The internal drive is set at SCSI 0, so my >friend set his Supra at SCSI 1, so they would not confict. This >turned out to be the problem. BOTH drives had to be set to SCSI 0 >to work. Extremely weird. Anyone have an explination? What did he plug the Supra into, daisy chained off the SCSI port, or the Atari DMA port? If DMA port, then the answer is that you're using two separate buses... -- -- Howard Chu @ Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA Disclaimer: How would I know, I just got here!
boyd@bind.cs.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (04/17/91)
In article <1991Apr16.195300.1906@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>, hyc@hanauma.jpl.nasa.gov (Howard Chu) writes: >In article <1991Apr16.042133.20872@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu writes: >>My friend managed to get his external Supra HD connected to his TT >>(which has an internal SCSI device). The TT differentiates between >>SCSI and ASCI devices. The internal drive is set at SCSI 0, so my >>friend set his Supra at SCSI 1, so they would not confict. This >>turned out to be the problem. BOTH drives had to be set to SCSI 0 >>to work. Extremely weird. Anyone have an explination? > >What did he plug the Supra into, daisy chained off the SCSI port, or >the Atari DMA port? If DMA port, then the answer is that you're using two >separate buses... >-- He plugged it into the DMA. However, if it is a separate bus, then it was the only device on it. So why does the Atari software demand that it be device 0? That is what puzzles me. -- ---------------------------------+------------------------------------- Mickey R. Boyd | "Kirk to Enterprise. All clear FSU Computer Science | down here. Beam down Technical Support Group | yeoman Rand and a six-pack . ." email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | ---------------------------------+-------------------------------------
D.C.Halliday@newcastle.ac.uk (Dave Halliday) (04/17/91)
In article <1991Apr16.195300.1906@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>, hyc@hanauma.jpl.nasa.gov (Howard Chu) writes: |>In article <1991Apr16.042133.20872@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu writes: |>>My friend managed to get his external Supra HD connected to his TT |>>(which has an internal SCSI device). The TT differentiates between |>>SCSI and ASCI devices. The internal drive is set at SCSI 0, so my |>>friend set his Supra at SCSI 1, so they would not confict. This |>>turned out to be the problem. BOTH drives had to be set to SCSI 0 |>>to work. Extremely weird. Anyone have an explination? |> |>What did he plug the Supra into, daisy chained off the SCSI port, or |>the Atari DMA port? If DMA port, then the answer is that you're using two |>separate buses... Yes, but why does this explain why it will not work with an id other than 0? I can see that if TT SCSI and ASCI are seperate buses then it is ok to use the same id. Does this meen that the TT ASCI port only supports one device not the full 8 on the ST. If it supports the full 8 then with two buses or 16 SCSI devices the TT can handle some serious backing storage :-> |>-- |> -- Howard Chu @ Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA |> Disclaimer: How would I know, I just got here! Dave Halliday (D.C.Halliday@newcastle.ac.uk) To: Subject: In article <1991Apr16.195300.1906@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>, hyc@hanauma.jpl.nasa.gov (Howard Chu) writes: |>In article <1991Apr16.042133.20872@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu writes: |>>My friend managed to get his external Supra HD connected to his TT |>>(which has an internal SCSI device). The TT differentiates between |>>SCSI and ASCI devices. The internal drive is set at SCSI 0, so my |>>friend set his Supra at SCSI 1, so they would not confict. This |>>turned out to be the problem. BOTH drives had to be set to SCSI 0 |>>to work. Extremely weird. Anyone have an explination? |> |>What did he plug the Supra into, daisy chained off the SCSI port, or |>the Atari DMA port? If DMA port, then the answer is that you're using two |>separate buses... Yes, but why does this explain why it will not work with an id other than 0? I can see that if TT SCSI and ASCI are seperate buses then it is ok to use the same id. Does this meen that the TT ASCI port only supports one device not the full 8 on the ST. If it supports the full 8 then with two buses or 16 SCSI devices the TT can handle some serious backing storage :-> |>-- |> -- Howard Chu @ Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA |> Disclaimer: How would I know, I just got here!
apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) (04/24/91)
D.C.Halliday@newcastle.ac.uk (Dave Halliday) writes: >In article <1991Apr16.195300.1906@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>, >hyc@hanauma.jpl.nasa.gov (Howard Chu) writes: >|>In article <1991Apr16.042133.20872@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> >boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu writes: >|>>My friend managed to get his external Supra HD connected to his TT >|>>(which has an internal SCSI device). The TT differentiates between >|>>SCSI and ASCI devices. The internal drive is set at SCSI 0, so my >|>>friend set his Supra at SCSI 1, so they would not confict. This >|>>turned out to be the problem. BOTH drives had to be set to SCSI 0 >|>>to work. Extremely weird. Anyone have an explination? >|> >|>What did he plug the Supra into, daisy chained off the SCSI port, or >|>the Atari DMA port? If DMA port, then the answer is that you're using two >|>separate buses... >Yes, but why does this explain why it will not work with an id other >than 0? I can see that if TT SCSI and ASCI are seperate buses then it is >ok to use the same id. Does this meen that the TT ASCI port only >supports one device not the full 8 on the ST. If it supports the full 8 >then with two buses or 16 SCSI devices the TT can handle some serious >backing storage :-> [I posted this earlier, but from the look of it the message didn't leave my site.] It's not the least bit wierd if you work through the logic of the busses. The fatal flaw in your reasoning is that you think since both drives are SCSI drives, they should have different SCSI unit numbers. What's actually happening as far as the TT is concerned is that you have one SCSI drive and one ACSI drive. The Supra drive is connected through a controller which lets you plug the SCSI drive into the ACSI bus. The controller, in essence, creates a tiny SCSI bus between it and the drive you connect to it. This controller will only control one unit, and it has to be SCSI unit 0. The controller probably has a switch of its own, to tell it which ACSI drive it should respond as. This is a SCSI bus | ---------- | | TT | | | | v ------------------------------------ | SCSI --X<---->| Internal SCSI drive, SCSI unit 0 | | BUS | ------------------------------------ | | | | -------------------- ------------------ | ACSI --X<---->| Supra Controller |<---->| External drive | | BUS | ^ | ACSI unit 0 | ^ | SCSI unit 0 | | | | | ACSI <--> SCSI | | ------------------ ---------- | -------------------- | | | This is an ACSI bus This is a SCSI bus If you add another Supra controller (or ICD controller or any SCSI-to-ACSI converter) to the ACSI bus, you would have to make it ACSI unit 1, but the drive it controls would still be SCSI unit 0, and there's no conflict because it's the only SCSI drive on the SCSI bus that the controller creates between itself and that drive. Get the picture? More minutae: HDX asks "SCSI or ACSI" when you select a drive; it's talking about SCSI or ACSI as the TT sees things, not necessarily which kind of mechanism it is. Almost all Atari drives are now SCSI drives with an ACSI-to-SCSI converter inside the case, where you don't see it. The Megafile 44 is a good example. Some used to be (and may still be) ST-506 drives with an ST506-to-ACSI converter inside the case, so don't count on one or the other without checking. The chief difference between SCSI and ACSI in the TT is that the SCSI bus supports the full SCSI command set, and ACSI doesn't. One important command which ACSI does not support is "inquire capacity." When you can do "inquire capacity" you don't need to know anything else about the drive to format or partition it, ergo no wincap and no "click on the drive type" box. Wincap is still required for HDX to be able to format and partition some (all?) ACSI drives. A final note: Mega STe's have an internal SCSI drive like TT's, but again, there is a SCSI-to-ACSI converter inside the box, so as far as TOS and HDX are concerned, it's an ACSI drive. Mega STe's don't really have SCSI, even though it kind of looks like they do. ============================================ Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. ...ames!atari!apratt
boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (04/24/91)
In article <2910@atari.UUCP>, apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) writes: >D.C.Halliday@newcastle.ac.uk (Dave Halliday) writes: > >The fatal flaw in your reasoning is that you think since both drives are >SCSI drives, they should have different SCSI unit numbers. What's actually >happening as far as the TT is concerned is that you have one SCSI drive and >one ACSI drive. The Supra drive is connected through a controller which >lets you plug the SCSI drive into the ACSI bus. The controller, in >essence, creates a tiny SCSI bus between it and the drive you connect to >it. This controller will only control one unit, and it has to be SCSI unit >0. My reasoning is fine, thank you. Yes, what you describe above is intuitively obvious after knowing that both drives needed to be set to 0. What is less obvious is why the Supra HAD to be set to 0. My ICD host adaptor will allow me to set the SCSI device id to whatever I want, and will still find the drive at boot time. I can hook multiple drives up to it, etc. Thus, I make the following assertion: there are two logically seperate busses on the TT (which concern fixed disks): a pure SCSI and an ASCI. Each is independent in the sense of SCSI device id numbers, so each can have a device 0 without conflict. My question (based on this assertion) is this: Why did the Supra drive _require_ SCSI id 0? It was the only device on that "bus"? In other words, do the SCSI id numbers on a bus have to start with 0, then increment by one? Could I have a device 0, then a device 4? If not, why? This has been successfully done by both Supra and ICD (and Atari, I thought). If so, then is the restriction only on the first SCSI device (ie does a device 0 have to exist, but other devices need not be sequentially numbered)? Another way to look at the question is this: What need be considered when hooking up multiple ASCI devices (consisting of host adaptor and SCSI device) to the TT? How must the SCSI id numbers be picked for all drives to work? It is inexcusable that this information was not included in the TT manual. For example, my hard disk was set to SCSI id 1 when I bought it. Thus, were I to get a TT (and without the benifit of helping my friend) I would not be able to get the damn thing to work without a phone call to Atari. Since this computer is a logical upgrade from the ST architecture, all information needed to "upgrade" should be included in the manual!!!!!! -- ---------------------------------+------------------------------------- Mickey R. Boyd | "Kirk to Enterprise. All clear FSU Computer Science | down here. Beam down Technical Support Group | yeoman Rand and a six-pack . ." email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | ---------------------------------+-------------------------------------
cummins@unx2.ucc.okstate.edu (John Cummins) (04/24/91)
>>|>>turned out to be the problem. BOTH drives had to be set to SCSI 0 >>|>>to work. Extremely weird. Anyone have an explination? > >>Yes, but why does this explain why it will not work with an id other >>than 0? I can see that if TT SCSI and ASCI are seperate buses then it is >>ok to use the same id. Does this meen that the TT ASCI port only On my Mega ST... I have no SCSI 0 drive. I use scsi 4 and 5 so I can daisy chain a friends scsi 0 drive and still access my own disks. But I can still boot... and use my hard disks w/o any SCSI 0 device attached. The fellow you've been chatting with says the TT won't recognize SCSI devices 1-7 on the ASCI bus, at least not without an SCSI 0 in place. Device 0 MUST be used for the first device. Why???? John Cummins cummins@unx2.ucc.okstate.edu
apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) (04/30/91)
cummins@unx2.ucc.okstate.edu (John Cummins) writes: >On my Mega ST... I have no SCSI 0 drive. I use scsi 4 and 5 so I can >daisy chain a friends scsi 0 drive and still access my own disks. >But I can still boot... and use my hard disks w/o any SCSI 0 device >attached. >The fellow you've been chatting with says the TT won't recognize SCSI devices >1-7 on the ASCI bus, at least not without an SCSI 0 in place. Device 0 MUST >be used for the first device. Why???? [Am I "the fellow [he's] been chatting with"?] I can't speak for what SCSI unit numbers ICD or Supra adaptors will or won't recognize. From the data presented here, it sounds like ICD will handle any SCSI unit number on the drive, and Supra will only talk to SCSI unit zero. The latter is not unreasonable -- if you've got only one drive on a SCSI-to-ACSI converter, why include the logic to talk to an arbitrary SCSI device number? It would mean logic in the adaptor to see what SCSI drives are out there. I have even heard of some adaptors which look at the SCSI unit number of the drive that's connected, and configure themselves as that ACSI unit number, further confusing the issue. As for the ST/TT side of the bus, you have to start with zero on each bus and increment by one for each drive you connect to that bus. (Remember, that's unit numbers as the computer sees them, not as the adaptor sees the disk it's actually talking to.) The reasons for this are kind of involved, and I don't want to go into them; just take my word for it and carry on. I hope this clears up the questions about busses and unit numbers, and we can get on with our lives. ============================================ Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. ...ames!atari!apratt
csbrod@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Claus Brod) (05/01/91)
apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) writes: >As for the ST/TT side of the bus, you have to start with zero on each bus >and increment by one for each drive you connect to that bus. (Remember, >that's unit numbers as the computer sees them, not as the adaptor sees the >disk it's actually talking to.) The reasons for this are kind of involved, >and I don't want to go into them; just take my word for it and carry on. Pity. I would really like to know more about the reason everything has to start from zero. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Claus Brod, Am Felsenkeller 2, Things. Take. Time. D-8772 Marktheidenfeld, West Germany (Piet Hein) csbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de Claus Brod@wue.maus.de ----------------------------------------------------------------------
boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (05/02/91)
In article <2917@atari.UUCP>, apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) writes: Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st,comp.sys.atari.st.tech Subject: Re: Weird TT hard disk thingy References: <2910@atari.UUCP> <1991Apr24.153245.19616@unx2.ucc.okstate.edu> <2917@atari.UUCP> Distribution: Followup-To: Reply-To: boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) Organization: Florida State University Computer Science Department In article <2917@atari.UUCP>, apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) writes: >cummins@unx2.ucc.okstate.edu (John Cummins) writes: >>The fellow you've been chatting with says the TT won't recognize SCSI devices >>1-7 on the ASCI bus, at least not without an SCSI 0 in place. Device 0 MUST >>be used for the first device. Why???? > >[Am I "the fellow [he's] been chatting with"?] > No, I am. >I can't speak for what SCSI unit numbers ICD or Supra adaptors will or >won't recognize. From the data presented here, it sounds like ICD will >handle any SCSI unit number on the drive, and Supra will only talk to SCSI >unit zero. The latter is not unreasonable -- if you've got only one drive >on a SCSI-to-ACSI converter, why include the logic to talk to an arbitrary >SCSI device number? It would mean logic in the adaptor to see what SCSI >drives are out there. No, both the Supra and the ICD will allow for the absence of a SCSI device number 0 (ie they both support muliple devices). >As for the ST/TT side of the bus, you have to start with zero on each bus >and increment by one for each drive you connect to that bus. (Remember, >that's unit numbers as the computer sees them, not as the adaptor sees the >disk it's actually talking to.) The reasons for this are kind of involved, >and I don't want to go into them; just take my word for it and carry on. > The reasons for this have always been the exact question which I have been asking. At this point, an explination does not interest me. However, I do think it would be rather nice if a paragraph or two was included in the TT manual explaining this phenomena, and how to correct it with a few of the major brands of host adaptors. The DMA port on the back of the TT is handled differently than that on the various ST's, and this could cause an hard drive set up (and working) on an ST to fail (with very little explanation from the Atari HD software). >I have even heard of some adaptors which look at the SCSI unit number of >the drive that's connected, and configure themselves as that ACSI unit >number, further confusing the issue. > This is very likely the reason why the drive did not work. Since the SCSI disk was set to ID 1, perhaps it set the ASCI number to the same (thus confusing the Atari HD software). It would be interesting to see if the BMS and ICD host adaptors create the same problem. -- ---------------------------------+------------------------------------- Mickey R. Boyd | "Kirk to Enterprise. All clear FSU Computer Science | down here. Beam down Technical Support Group | yeoman Rand and a six-pack . ." email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | ---------------------------------+-------------------------------------
apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) (05/04/91)
boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes: >The DMA port on the back of the TT >is handled differently than that on the various ST's, and this could cause >an hard drive set up (and working) on an ST to fail (with very little >explanation from the Atari HD software). A phrase like "The DMA port on the back of the TT" encourages misunderstanding: there are TWO DMA ports on the back of the TT; one is ACSI and one is SCSI, and you should make that distinction explicit when you talk about the TT. In any case, you are mistaken. A working setup on an ST will work fine on a TT. What part of this conversation makes you think it won't? The only oddity will be that SCSI drives (like the internal one), if present, will have their partitions appear first in the sequence of drive letters. But if you have a working chain of drives coming out of your ST, and you unplug the end of the chain from the ST and plug it into the TT, all those drives will be accessible and will work just fine. ============================================ Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. ...ames!atari!apratt
larserio@IFI.UIO.NO (LarsErikOsterud) (05/04/91)
Well, the Epson Laser Emulator LASERBRAIN works 100% on ST, STE and MEGA STE, but on the TT it sais "No laser printer connected". Then it's easy to say that the ACSI port is not 100% identical on the TT (even if the problem may be a software problem, either in LaserBrain or in the TT-TOS)... Lars-Erik / ABK-BBS +47 2132659 / ____ ______ ________________________ Osterud / larserio@ifi.uio.no / /___ / The norwegian ST __________/ ______________________/ ____/ / Klubben, user association
boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (05/05/91)
In article <2925@atari.UUCP>, apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) writes: >boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes: >>The DMA port on the back of the TT >>is handled differently than that on the various ST's, and this could cause >>an hard drive set up (and working) on an ST to fail (with very little >>explanation from the Atari HD software). > >A phrase like "The DMA port on the back of the TT" encourages >misunderstanding: there are TWO DMA ports on the back of the TT; one is >ACSI and one is SCSI, and you should make that distinction explicit when >you talk about the TT. Implicitly I am referring to the one which also exists on ST systems, which is the ASCI one. Are you telling me to be more up to snuff on my technical descriptions? Crack open an ST or TT manual sometime, and get your red pen out . . . . > >In any case, you are mistaken. A working setup on an ST will work fine on >a TT. What part of this conversation makes you think it won't? The only >oddity will be that SCSI drives (like the internal one), if present, will >have their partitions appear first in the sequence of drive letters. But >if you have a working chain of drives coming out of your ST, and you unplug >the end of the chain from the ST and plug it into the TT, all those drives >will be accessible and will work just fine. > Wrong. <sigh> Here we go. Ok Allan, here is exactly what happened (for the third time :-). A working ST system: Mega4, laser printer, Supra Hard disk. The SCSI drive contained within the Supra is set to SCSI id 1. The ST does not mind this at all. Everything works. A TT system is purchased. The DMA cable connecting the Supra to the working ST setup is disconnected, and attached to the ASCI DMA port on the TT. The computer is booted. The Supra is invisible to the TT desktop, for no apparent reason. Nothing is stated in the manual. No error messages from the HDX software. What was really strange is that the Atari formatting software could see the Supra (and it was later used to format and partition it, to no avail). However, nothing could make those partitions show up in a window on the desktop. This was finally fixed by tearing the Supra apart and setting the SCSI disk contained within to SCSI id 0. The question WAS: why did this have to be done? It worked fine on the ST when set to SCSI id 1. Please do not answer this question. I don't care anymore. Nobody cares anymore. All of us that read all this bandwidth will carry the "set it to zero and try it" solution for the rest of our days. We will repeatedly tell new TT owners this when they post the "what the hell is wrong with my hard disk" question on c.s.a.st. This will just become one more such tidbit of information that is needed to have success with ST/TT's, and is not printed in the manuals that come with the computer(s). -- ---------------------------------+------------------------------------- Mickey R. Boyd | "Kirk to Enterprise. All clear FSU Computer Science | down here. Beam down Technical Support Group | yeoman Rand and a six-pack . ." email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | ---------------------------------+-------------------------------------
cummins@unx2.ucc.okstate.edu (John Cummins) (05/06/91)
In article <2925@atari.UUCP> apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) writes: > >In any case, you are mistaken. A working setup on an ST will work fine on >a TT. What part of this conversation makes you think it won't? The only >oddity will be that SCSI drives (like the internal one), if present, will >have their partitions appear first in the sequence of drive letters. But >if you have a working chain of drives coming out of your ST, and you unplug >the end of the chain from the ST and plug it into the TT, all those drives >will be accessible and will work just fine. > Even if there is no drive 0 in the working chain of drives attached to the ASCI port? ie, my ICD drives, with ASCI to SCSI adapter and drives with SCSI id's 2 and 4? (I havn't the foggiest what ASCI id they (it?) would have, from previous disclosures, I understand I can have an ASCI id 0-7 for 8 different host adapters, and 0-7 SCSI id's on each?) naw... I thought the host adapter was "transparent" and the SCSI id's on the ASCI attached drives became the ASCI id. Conjecture: My two drives (SCSI id's 2,4 on an ICD host) would show up as ASCI id's 2,4 and work just fine (With ICD's software) attached to a TT. >Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. >reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. ...ames!atari!apratt John Cummins (still wondering IF there's a problem with NOT having an SCSI ID 0 on a chain of host adapter equipped drives attached to an ASCI port on a TT)
Dave_Ninjajr_Flory@cup.portal.com (05/07/91)
My understanding is that the ST will read ID numbers from the lowest one to the highest, and it doesn't matter if some are skipped. The TT reads from 0 up in SEQUENTIAL order. If you skip a number the others are invisible. If your TT doesn't have an internal HD then the ID 1 drive would act as you described and changing it to 0 would be the fix. Does this make sense or am I all wet? (I don't have a TT so I don't know if the manual says this. I picked it up somewhere, on GEnie maybe.) DAVE FLORY Dave_Ninjajr_Flory@cup.portal.com D.FLORY, A.L.E.R.T. Sys*Cop on GEnie
apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) (05/07/91)
boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes: > A working ST system: Mega4, laser printer, Supra Hard disk. The SCSI > drive contained within the Supra is set to SCSI id 1. The ST does > not mind this at all. Everything works. I conclude that the Supra controller responds on the ACSI bus using the unit number of the SCSI drive connected to it; see below. > A TT system is purchased. > The DMA cable connecting the Supra to the working ST setup is > disconnected, and attached to the ASCI DMA port on the TT. > The computer is booted. > The Supra is invisible to the TT desktop, for no apparent reason. > Nothing is stated in the manual. No error messages from the > HDX software. I stand corrected. I should have said, "A working system WITH ATARI DRIVERS will work when plugged into a TT." What is happening here is that on the ST, you are booting with Supra's driver off the Supra hard disk, and on the TT you are booting with Atari's driver on the TT's internal hard disk. Supra's driver will find ACSI units which are not connected in consecutive order starting with zero, and Atari's driver won't. The same thing would happen if you connected an ACSI drive, as ACSI unit zero, HINSTALLED with Atari's driver, to the ST: you would get Atari's driver, not Supra's. (Of course, since you now have consecutive ACSI unit numbers starting from zero, your Supra would be found; if the Supra were unit 2, it would not be.) There is another problem which has been called to my attention, and which is covered by the same "Atari drivers" caveat: Supra uses one trick to get more than four partitions per drive, and Atari uses another. If you have a drive partitioned with Supra's trick, and you connected it to a TT (or any machine running an Atari driver) the partitions after the fourth one will not be accessible. Again, it's a question of using non-Atari drivers. ============================================ Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. ...ames!atari!apratt
ONM07@DMSWWU1A.BITNET (Julian F. Reschke) (05/07/91)
In article <42051@cup.portal.com>, Dave_Ninjajr_Flory@cup.portal.com says: > >My understanding is that the ST will read ID numbers from the lowest one to >the highest, and it doesn't matter if some are skipped. The TT reads from 0 Wrong. The limititation is not in the BIOS, but in AHDI. The BIOS boots from the first drive with an executable root sector (the TT takes the SCSI drives first). But AHDI only looks for devices starting at #0 in sequential order. >up in SEQUENTIAL order. If you skip a number the others are invisible. If >your TT doesn't have an internal HD then the ID 1 drive would act as you >described and changing it to 0 would be the fix. Does this make sense or >am I all wet? (I don't have a TT so I don't know if the manual says this. I >picked it up somewhere, on GEnie maybe.) > >DAVE FLORY >Dave_Ninjajr_Flory@cup.portal.com >D.FLORY, A.L.E.R.T. Sys*Cop on GEnie ___________________________ cut here _____________________________________ Julian F. Reschke, Hensenstr. 142, D-4400 Muenster, Phone: ++49 251 861241 fast eMail: ONM07@DMSWWU1A.BITNET, slow: jr@ms.maus.de (++49 251 77216) ____________________ correct me if I'm wrong _____________________________
ONM07@DMSWWU1A.BITNET (Julian F. Reschke) (05/07/91)
Perhaps is should be mentioned that the AHDI 3 partition scheme is well documented and that it's a problem of the other hard disk manufactures if they are not compatible. There *ARE* third-party drivers that are AHDI-3 compatible AND know about the TT's SCSI port (in fact, I am one of the authors of one of them). ___________________________ cut here _____________________________________ Julian F. Reschke, Hensenstr. 142, D-4400 Muenster, Phone: ++49 251 861241 fast eMail: ONM07@DMSWWU1A.BITNET, slow: jr@ms.maus.de (++49 251 77216) ____________________ correct me if I'm wrong _____________________________ ___________________________ cut here _____________________________________ Julian F. Reschke, Hensenstr. 142, D-4400 Muenster, Phone: ++49 251 861241 fast eMail: ONM07@DMSWWU1A.BITNET, slow: jr@ms.maus.de (++49 251 77216) ____________________ correct me if I'm wrong _____________________________ ___________________________ cut here _____________________________________ Julian F. Reschke, Hensenstr. 142, D-4400 Muenster, Phone: ++49 251 861241 fast eMail: ONM07@DMSWWU1A.BITNET, slow: jr@ms.maus.de (++49 251 77216) ____________________ correct me if I'm wrong _____________________________ ___________________________ cut here _____________________________________ Julian F. Reschke, Hensenstr. 142, D-4400 Muenster, Phone: ++49 251 861241 fast eMail: ONM07@DMSWWU1A.BITNET, slow: jr@ms.maus.de (++49 251 77216) ____________________ correct me if I'm wrong _____________________________
fischer-michael@cs.yale.edu (Michael Fischer) (05/09/91)
In article <2930@atari.UUCP> apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) writes: >Supra's driver will find ACSI units which are not connected in consecutive >order starting with zero, and Atari's driver won't. > ... >There is another problem which has been called to my attention, and which >is covered by the same "Atari drivers" caveat: Supra uses one trick to get >more than four partitions per drive, and Atari uses another. If you have a >drive partitioned with Supra's trick, and you connected it to a TT (or any >machine running an Atari driver) the partitions after the fourth one will >not be accessible. Again, it's a question of using non-Atari drivers. > >============================================ >Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. >reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. ...ames!atari!apratt I would think it would be in Atari's best interests to provide an upgrade path for present ST users of Supra's drives. It shouldn't be too hard to extend AHDI so that: 1. The driver will work like Supra's driver and find ACSI units which are not connected in consecutive order. 2. The driver will recognize Supra's extended partitions as well as Atari's. HDX doesn't have to create them, but it would sure be nice if AHDI and HDX understood them. -- ================================================== | Michael Fischer <fischer-michael@cs.yale.edu> | ==================================================
Roger.Sheppard@bbs.actrix.gen.nz (05/10/91)
In article <1991May9.154337.17580@cs.yale.edu> fischer-michael@cs.yale.edu (Michael Fischer) writes: > In article <2930@atari.UUCP> apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) writes: > >Supra's driver will find ACSI units which are not connected in consecutive > >order starting with zero, and Atari's driver won't. > > ... > >There is another problem which has been called to my attention, and which > >is covered by the same "Atari drivers" caveat: Supra uses one trick to get > >more than four partitions per drive, and Atari uses another. If you have a > >drive partitioned with Supra's trick, and you connected it to a TT (or any > >machine running an Atari driver) the partitions after the fourth one will > >not be accessible. Again, it's a question of using non-Atari drivers. > > > >============================================ > >Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. > >reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. ...ames!atari!apratt > > I would think it would be in Atari's best interests to provide an > upgrade path for present ST users of Supra's drives. It shouldn't > be too hard to extend AHDI so that: > > 1. The driver will work like Supra's driver and find ACSI units > which are not connected in consecutive order. > > 2. The driver will recognize Supra's extended partitions as well as > Atari's. HDX doesn't have to create them, but it would sure be nice > if AHDI and HDX understood them. > > -- > ================================================== > | Michael Fischer <fischer-michael@cs.yale.edu> | > ================================================== Why don't we have a propper standard, one of the problems is that Ataries HDX standard came out far to late. So why don't all the other Atari developers come up with one common standard. Is it not posible to follow the MS-DOS standard, as our disks are based on that standard.. It would only take a small patch program to fixup the none standard disk partitions, and for the other developers to fixup there Booters, or is this to simple a task. Also are BIG partition standard ?. -- Roger W. Sheppard 85 Donovan Rd, Kapiti New Zealand...
stephen@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Steve Whitney) (05/10/91)
In article <1991May10.025443.15780@actrix.gen.nz> Roger.Sheppard@bbs.actrix.gen.nz writes: [Quotes lots of people] > >Why don't we have a propper standard, one of the problems is that > Ataries HDX standard came out far to late. >So why don't all the other Atari developers come up with one >common standard. > Is it not posible to follow the MS-DOS standard, as our disks are >based on that standard.. >It would only take a small patch program to fixup the none standard >disk partitions, and for the other developers to fixup there Booters, >or is this to simple a task. > >Also are BIG partition standard ?. >-- >Roger W. Sheppard 85 Donovan Rd, Kapiti New Zealand... Well, there's not point in adopting yet another standard now. Atari has released the details of their standard for adding partitions and for creating large (big GEM - BGM) partitions. Registered developers can get this document right now. The new driver comes with all TTs so we might as well use its standard. --Steve -- Steve Whitney - UCLA CS Grad Student (())_-_(()) Soon to be working at Silicon Graphics | (* *) | Internet: stephen@cs.ucla.edu UCLA Bruin--> { \_@_/ } GEnie: S.WHITNEY `-----'
csbrod@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Claus Brod) (05/10/91)
fischer-michael@cs.yale.edu (Michael Fischer) writes: >In article <2930@atari.UUCP> apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) writes: >upgrade path for present ST users of Supra's drives. It shouldn't >be too hard to extend AHDI so that: >1. The driver will work like Supra's driver and find ACSI units >which are not connected in consecutive order. >2. The driver will recognize Supra's extended partitions as well as >Atari's. HDX doesn't have to create them, but it would sure be nice >if AHDI and HDX understood them. Perhaps they don't want the two formats to be mixed up by users. Anyway, the two points you made are two of the reasons I wrote my own driver. Especially (1) is extremely annoying. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Claus Brod, Am Felsenkeller 2, Things. Take. Time. D-8772 Marktheidenfeld, West Germany (Piet Hein) csbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de Claus Brod@wue.maus.de ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger.Sheppard@bbs.actrix.gen.nz (05/11/91)
In article <1991May10.075334.19165@cs.ucla.edu> stephen@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Steve Whitney) writes: > In article <1991May10.025443.15780@actrix.gen.nz> Roger.Sheppard@bbs.actrix.gen.nz writes: > [Quotes lots of people] > > > >Why don't we have a propper standard, one of the problems is that > > Ataries HDX standard came out far to late. > >So why don't all the other Atari developers come up with one > >common standard. > > Is it not posible to follow the MS-DOS standard, as our disks are > >based on that standard.. > >It would only take a small patch program to fixup the none standard > >disk partitions, and for the other developers to fixup there Booters, > >or is this to simple a task. > > > >Also are BIG partition standard ?. > >-- > Well, there's not point in adopting yet another standard now. Atari has > released the details of their standard for adding partitions and for > creating large (big GEM - BGM) partitions. Registered developers can get > this document right now. The new driver comes with all TTs so we might as > well use its standard. > --Steve > Steve Whitney - UCLA CS Grad Student (())_-_(()) > Soon to be working at Silicon Graphics | (* *) | > Internet: stephen@cs.ucla.edu UCLA Bruin--> { \_@_/ } > GEnie: S.WHITNEY `-----' I don't think you understood what I was on about, are you stating that we have to upgrade all our Programs and Hard Disk just because of the 'TT'. The Supra standard was here far before the HDX one, From what I have read ICD's booter is claimed to be the fastes, I have seen boot problems with the HDX software, that where fixed by replacing the booter. Also what states the Ataries Booter is the best..? I don't think you should be rail roaded in what Atari gives you, I believe in freedom of choice, and not this dogmatic attitude that Atari gives you. -- Roger W. Sheppard 85 Donovan Rd, Kapiti New Zealand...
kbad@atari.UUCP (Ken Badertscher) (05/17/91)
Roger.Sheppard@bbs.actrix.gen.nz writes: |I don't think you should be rail roaded in what Atari gives you, I |believe in freedom of choice, and not this dogmatic attitude that Atari |gives you. Precisely. You are free to use whatever hard disk driver software you desire. If you want to use the Supra software, buy a Supra drive and use it. If you want to use the ICD software, buy an ICD drive or host adapter, and enjoy yourself. Likewise, Atari should be free to choose whether or not to follow a "standard" created by a third party. Some such standards are hacks, some are good ideas, some have a core of good ideas with a lot of extra nonsense that Atari doesn't need in a standard. The bottom line for us is that it doesn't matter what standard we decide on, some people will be unhappy with our decisions. That's something we live with. You can't please all the people all the time. You can't please all Atari users hardly ever <grin>. -- ||| Ken Badertscher (ames!atari!kbad) ||| Atari R&D System Software Engine / | \ #include <disclaimer>