bissiri@blake.acs.washington.edu (Moja Fritzah) (08/22/89)
DOes anybody know what the RAM speed is in the TT? Will it be possible to pop in a faster 030 chip? 040? -kevin bissiri@blake.acs.washington.edu
larserio@IFI.UIO.NO (LarsErikOsterud) (10/03/89)
Does anyone out there know what software/hardware that will work on a TT ? Programming tools: - Personal Pascal 2 - Lattice C - Assempro - Seka GDOS-programs: - Timeworks DTP - EasyDraw - GEM-Paint Drawing programs: - Degas Elite - Quantum Paint - Spectrum 512 Cartridges (does the ST ones fit on a TT ?): - Vidi digitizers (like Vidi-ST from Rombo) - Sound samplers (like Replay 4) - PC-SPEED - PC-Ditto 2 (does PC-Ditto on disk work) - Alladin - Spectre (both 128 and GCR) Can somebody from Atari test some of the popular software on the TT and inform the ST users out there of the result - please ? Lars-Erik / ABK-BBS +47 2132659 / ____ ______ Osterud / larserio@ifi.uio.no / /___ / ____________/ _______________________/ ____/ /
ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu (Enartloc Nhoj) (10/20/89)
I do NOT mean to offend anyone by talking about 386 boxes... but I can't believe I am the only one sitting anxiously waiting for the much-too-long awaited USA announcement of the TT. Of course, I KNOW i am not. Opposite the Portfolio ad I saw this morning, there was an ad for the following: 80386 (NOT the "SX") 25Mhz 1MB RAM (expandable to 8 MBytes) 1.2 MB floppy 101 Enhanced keyboard Serial and Parallel ports VGA color monitor and card 8 expansion slots ( 1 x 32 ; 5 X 16 ; 2 x 8 ) 60 MB 32ms Hard Drive Price: $1995.00 (delivery: 3 days) Granted, it doesn't run TOS 1.4 ... but it EXISTS! Thinking I might keep the ol' ST in the basement studio and put a 25Mhz Unix box in my office. Unless, of course, ATARI offers the TT at a price I can't refuse! No flame against ATARI... just a hanging around a few moments longer for THE ANNOUNCEMENT before I move on....
Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com (11/13/89)
Jouni Alkio observes: >I don't really understand why you (and many others) complain about the >TT/P. Well, what *I* don't really understand is why ANYONE gets very hot about ANY of these supposed Atari "products"... The ONLY thing the Atari Corp manufacturers and sells is the ST/Mega. (Sorry about non-US markets, I guess there are mutant variations there) Why worry about how many VME slots there may be, someday, in some theoretcal product..? You can't buy one now, so why care about it..? Why worry about the theoretical resolution of some still vaporware Atari workstation..? The only thing you can *BUY* is 640x400 monochrome. Atari has been *TALKING* for years about these other things... but still selling the same old, same old... Go down to your local (hah!) Atari dealer and check out the Atari TT/ATW/STE and *then* worry about it... BobR (COMDEX is tomorrow... anyone remember COMDEX last year..?)
Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com (11/13/89)
Steve Whitney sez: >THANK YOU Atari. It appears to me that you've been listening to what people >want. What have been the main complaints against the ST hardware? > 1) Memory not expandable: Taken care of in TT Yes, thank you Atari.. .this only took since 1985 > 2) ACSI instead of SCSI: Taken care of, means cheaper disk drives Yes again thank you.. only 4 years to come up to industry standards. > 3) Only one serial port: Taken care of Again, thank you.. my 8-bit Atari has only had 4 serial ports since 1979 >Most of the rest of the complaints are software-oriented. Give Atari time. Yes.. let's give Atari time.. after all, it took them 4 years to upgrade the operating system in the ST, and they still can't seem to fix GDOS, so let's give them time. Maybe by the turn of the century they'll be able to come up to 1980's standards. >They have said unofficially, with no commitment to a target release date >that there will eventually be a multitasking TOS. Someday. Not tomorrow. >Unix should be available sooner. I've also heard that someday pigs would fly... maybe with Atari controlled computers..? Seems to me that I've heard about multitasking Operating System on other computers *now*... Not tomomorrow.. Now.. Maybe a better advertising slogan for Atari would be: "Someday, Over the Rainbow" BobR
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (11/14/89)
Ooooh, a very barbed message, but I fell out of my chair when I read the "over the rainbow" line. <snicker> Well, this may all be ancient history if Dave Small creates a 68030 board for the ST. I trust his business sense a LOT more than Atari's. If he produces anything close to the quality of his other projects, he will make a lot of money (and a lot of disgusted users happy). I'm glad someone credible picked up the ball that Atari fumbled....sad, but true... Chris Mauritz ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |Where there's a BEER, cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |there's a plan. (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null |Need I say more? ------------------------------+---------------------------
depeche@quiche.cs.mcgill.ca (Sam Alan EZUST) (11/14/89)
In article <1783@atari.UUCP> apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) writes: >ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu (Enartloc Nhoj) writes: >>The strange thing is that i have a hard time believing that i >>am still considering buying an 030 that won't multitask all that >>niffty GEM software i have on my drive. > >[.. stuff explaining that it is really difficult for multitasking...] > >What I'm trying to say is THIS IS NOT EASY. It's not even Moderately >Difficult. This is A Hard Problem. The presence of a 68030 doesn't >make it any easier. > It is for the same reasons that OS/2 isn't compatible with dos. If you have ever written in a multitasking operating system while understanding what it really entails, you will just smack your hand on your forehead and yell, "yoi!" when you start to imagine how difficult writing such an operating system would be... Does anyone know how the hell Macintosh managed to make all their programs work with multidesk (or was multitasking always supported on the Mac? Please don't flame me if this is very common knowledge - my hatred for Apple runs so deep that I haven't even touched one until quite recently...) anyway, are there any plans for a TOS which will support task switching? That would be a really nice feature to throw in with a TT, and isn't very hard (just takes up disk space or memory space)... -- S. Alan Ezust aka "Depeche MoDem" depeche@calvin.cs.mcgill.ca McGill University Computer Science Disclaimer: I claim everything! Montreal, Quebec, Canada (je pense que.... ) je me souviens "This kind of pornography is a matter of artistic creativity"
shao@cs.toronto.edu (Sherwin Shao) (11/15/89)
This message is empty.
ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu (Enartloc Nhoj) (12/29/89)
It's been 4 solid months since the Dusseldorf "announcement" of the TT on August 25th, 1989. Today is more than 30 days beyond the ATARI policy of Show and Deliver. Can anybody in Europe tell us non-Europeans that you have indeed purchased a TT from a dealer? -kevin ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu PLEASE.. NO WARS on this one.. this is an honest to goodness simple question.
towns@atari.UUCP (John Townsend) (01/05/90)
in article <5176@blake.acs.washington.edu>, ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu (Enartloc Nhoj) says: > > It's been 4 solid months since the > Dusseldorf "announcement" of the TT > on August 25th, 1989. > > Today is more than 30 days beyond the ATARI policy > of Show and Deliver. Can anybody in > Europe tell us non-Europeans that > you have indeed purchased a TT from > a dealer? > > -kevin > ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu > > PLEASE.. NO WARS on this one.. this is an > honest to goodness simple question. The TT computer system is still under development by Atari. When the product was shown, we stated projected delivery dates of 1st Quarter 1990. Check your watch, the first quarter just started. -- John Townsend ames!atari!towns Atari Corp, Systems Test
ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu (Enartloc Nhoj) (03/08/90)
According to many "officials" at ATARI... some who have written to me personally, ** The TT will be available in TWO WEEKS! ** Question: which ones will have SIMMS and which will have SIPS..? Question 2: will the TT boot only into low-res? Question 3: will i need folderxxx.prg? -kevin
dhe@uafhcx.uucp (David Ewing) (03/08/90)
In article <6154@blake.acs.washington.edu>, ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu (Enartloc Nhoj) writes: > According to many "officials" at ATARI... > some who have written to me personally, > > ** The TT will be available in TWO WEEKS! ** > Question: which ones will have SIMMS and which will have SIPS..? > Question 2: will the TT boot only into low-res? > Question 3: will i need folderxxx.prg? You left out two really major questions: 1) How much is Atari going to sell them for? (Exact price, none of this 'less than xxxx computer system'..) 2) Where can users find the TT (or when will dealers get them)? -Dave ============================================================================== dhe@uafhcx.uark.edu David Ewing, University of Arkansas dhe@uafb15.uark.edu "DON'T PANIC!!!" Computer Science Engineering ==============================================================================
ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (03/08/90)
In article <6154@blake.acs.washington.edu> ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu (Enartloc Nhoj) writes: >According to many "officials" at ATARI... >some who have written to me personally, > >** The TT will be available in TWO WEEKS! ** Did anyone else who had seen the movie "The Money Pit" get a good laugh out of this too??? :-)
rjd@cs.brown.edu (Rob Demillo) (03/08/90)
In article <6154@blake.acs.washington.edu> ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu (Enartloc Nhoj) writes: >According to many "officials" at ATARI... >some who have written to me personally, > >** The TT will be available in TWO WEEKS! ** > I hate to be accused of crying wolf, but this *does* seem to confirm what I heard last week. (I never posted it because I didn't want to be guilty of starting a 'It's coming!' rumor.) Anyway, I was told by a dealer on Feb 28th that the TT will be released by the end of March. I looked at him incredulously, and he laughed and said that he heard this from both his Atari shipper and by someone he knew at the FCC. Just for completeness sake: the FCC guy told him that the STacy and the TT were both "on the bench" in one of the labs and were due to complete their certification in a few days. Now...if all this turns out to be another Atari false alarm, don't shoot me I'm only the piano player! - Rob DeMillo | Internet: rjd@brown.cs.edu Brown University | BITnet: DEMILLO%BRNPSG.SPAN@STAR.STANFORD.EDU Planetary Science Group | Reality: 401-273-0804 (home) "I say you *are* the Messiah, Lord! And I ought to know, I've followed a few!"
ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu (Enartloc Nhoj) (03/09/90)
In article <19448@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.UUCP (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: >In article <6154@blake.acs.washington.edu> ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu (Enartloc Nhoj) writes: >>According to many "officials" at ATARI... >>some who have written to me personally, >> >>** The TT will be available in TWO WEEKS! ** > > Did anyone else who had seen the movie "The Money Pit" get a >good laugh out of this too??? :-) At least one netter got the joke! Let's hope the joke is on us and we CAN buy a TT in two weeks... -kevin ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu BTW: ATARI did in fact say "officially" that the TT WILL be available by the "end of the first quarter 1990"... SIPS, folderxxx.prg et al !!
hcj@lzsc.ATT.COM (HC Johnson) (03/09/90)
In article <6170@blake.acs.washington.edu>, ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu (Enartloc Nhoj) writes: > In article <19448@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.UUCP (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: > >In article <6154@blake.acs.washington.edu> ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu (Enartloc Nhoj) writes: > >>According to many "officials" at ATARI... > >>some who have written to me personally, > >> > >>** The TT will be available in TWO WEEKS! ** > > > > BTW: ATARI did in fact say "officially" that the TT WILL be > available by the "end of the first quarter 1990"... > Wait up. ATARI will have some TT's forthcoming to selected hands but that is not General Availability. Howard C. Johnson ATT Bell Labs att!lzsc!hcj hcj@lzsc.att.com
ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu (Enartloc Nhoj) (03/10/90)
In article <1380@lzsc.ATT.COM> hcj@lzsc.ATT.COM (HC Johnson) writes: >In article <6170@blake.acs.washington.edu>, ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu (Enartloc Nhoj) writes: >> In article <19448@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.UUCP (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: >> >In article <6154@blake.acs.washington.edu> ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu (Enartloc Nhoj) writes: >> >>According to many "officials" at ATARI... >> >>some who have written to me personally, >> >> >> >>** The TT will be available in TWO WEEKS! ** >> > >> >> BTW: ATARI did in fact say "officially" that the TT WILL be >> available by the "end of the first quarter 1990"... >> > >Wait up. ATARI will have some TT's forthcoming to selected hands but that >is not General Availability. > >Howard C. Johnson >ATT Bell Labs >att!lzsc!hcj >hcj@lzsc.att.com Around Christmas time 1989, I posted an inquiry to the net in regards to actual purchases of the TT. I was particularly interested in hearing from the folks from Germany. WHy? well, I had been flamed on many occasion for expecting ATARI to offer us the truth. To wit: The Atari "policy" as it had been stated by a large body of netters, including those who work for Atari, is that Atari will not announce a new machine that is not to be released within the following 90 days. This seems perfectly reasonable. So in light of this information passed on to me, i posted an inquiry *** 120 *** days AFTER the Dusseldorf "announcement" of the TT. I wanted to know if anyone in Germany or anywhere in Europe was able to purchase a TT from a dealer. The response i got PERSONALLY was from an engineer from ATARI. His statement was on the order of: NO one can have purchased a TT in Europe... they're not available yet... furthermore, ATARI has stated quite clearly that the TT will not be available until the END of the THIRD QUARTER 1990. It is clear now that "available" has nothing to do with consumers and dealers. I am reminded of that James Taylor song: "I was a fool to care..." ANd that other one: " Let it fall down, let it fall down, let it all fall down..." Again, i remind myself, this complaining doesn't do a damn thing. sorry.... -kevin ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu
ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu (Enartloc Nhoj) (03/11/90)
In my post about Atari "stated clearly the TT would be available by THIRD QUARTER 90 ... should have been " 1st Quarter 90"... here i am complaining about ATARI and i can't even keep a simple thought straight.... sorry.. -kevin ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (07/19/90)
I have seen much talk of the TT here. Does anyone have one other than Atari and a handful of developers? Has anyone yet seen the elusive 32mhz TT? Not that I'd buy one, mind you. I'm just curious what all the fuss is about. :) Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |Donde hay una cerveza cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |hay un plan. (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null |El Guerrero Aereo es el rey! ------------------------------+---------------------------
erkamp@arcsun.arc.ab.ca (Bob Erkamp) (07/19/90)
In article <1990Jul19.135115.2032@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >I have seen much talk of the TT here. Does anyone have one other >than Atari and a handful of developers? > >Has anyone yet seen the elusive 32mhz TT? > Excerpt from Z*NET =============================== FIRST IMPRESSIONS OF THE "TT" IN CANADA =============================== (C) 1990 by Darek Mihocka, June 4, 1990. Well, today was the day Atari Canada made it's big debut of the TT at a downtown Toronto hotel. Free food too. You'll probably be hearing a lot about it in the next few days (the TT, not the food) and it'll be interesting to see how soon the promises start getting broken. As expected, the machine is not available yet, and is supposed to ship later this year. As of today, TT's are available to developers in Canada, and dealers can expect a few for demo purposes by the end of August, with real shipments starting in fourth quarter. The press release states "The Atari TT is scheduled for Canada-wide release in fall of 1990". The invitation talked about a "North American" debut, so I don't know what that means for the U.S. market. Probably 1993. The retail price is $3995.00 Canadian, (that's about $3395.00 U.S). That includes 2Meg of RAM and a 40 meg hard drive. Add from $200 to $1000 for a monitor, depending on which one you get. The floppy disk drive is still IBM comptible, now supporting the 1.44M format. The machine supports 6 screen resolutions, including the original 3 from the ST, plus a 1280x960 Moniterm mode, a 640x480 16 color VGA mode, and a 256 color 320x480 mode. The color monitor being used at the time, an Atari TTC30 or something was capable of supporting everything but the Moniterm mode. The desktop in VGA mode looked quite good, comparable to a Mac II desktop or a Windows desktop on a VGA monitor. The display was crisp and free of any interference. The TT has the 4096 color palette of the STE, as well as the 8-bit stereo sound, making it a machine ready for multimedia applications. The TOS running in this machine was still TOS 3.0, 03/01/90 version. The real TOS for the TT is supposed to be 2.0, and it's supposed to be a lot faster than 3.0. I ran Quick Index on the TT just to see the kind of performance I'd get. With the cache on, the CPU numbers are between about 350% to 500%, and with the cache off, about 30% slower. What this means is that in terms of raw processing speed, the TT can run 68000 code about 3, 4 or 5 times faster than an 8MHz ST or STE. I tried some sample software which I had earlier timed on my STE, and found the increase to be consistently about a factor of 3. All the Atari reps were emphasizing the speed. Calamus was being displayed, and the TT flyer and press release were both riddled with references to DynaCADD, and a 6 page DynaCADD brochure was included with the press release. The explanation given was that Atari wants to demonstrate that the machine is a full blown CAD workstation, and can run existing ST CAD packages. Once software like Calamus and DynaCADD is recompiled for the 68030, it will run even faster. All of the documentation presented was created with Calamus, and the press release mentions that Calamus running on the TT prints three times faster than any other package. It doesn't mention which other packages, but goes on to say that DynaCADD running on the TT is 2 to 10 times faster than Autocad running on a 386 based machine. Atari is also working with an unnamed third party to develop a software PC emulator that runs at the speed of an AT. And I'm sure another unnamed third party is busy on a Mac II emulator. The TT also comes with an Appletalk interface (gee, I wonder why!), MIDI ports, VME slot, 2 serial ports expandable to 4 (hey sysops, imagine the possibilites!), and SCSI and ACSI. The machine is certainly set up to communicate with the rest of the world. UNIX, X Windows, and Ethernet support are listed in the "Future Support" category of the spec sheet. Hopefully this isn't being handled by the same department that was responsible for getting the STacy and STE to US markets last year. The thing that I found quite odd with the TT is that with all the nifty hardware built in, this machine does NOT have a blitter chip. The last thing I would have expected in a machine that's being presented as a powerful graphics workstation is that all graphics operations are being performed by software, and by TOS 3.0 of all things. This TOS, I'm told, is almost identical to the TOS 1.6 currently installed in STEs, which as we all know, is almost the same thing as TOS 1.4, just slightly faster. TOS 2.0 is supposed to change all that and really be fast, but I seriously doubt that they'll whip together something by August, given that TOS has already been worked on for 5 years. So, back to Quick Index I went and benchmarked the screen performance. Someone at the presentation had mentioned that you could load in a DynaCADD file with 10,000 objects and watch them redraw REALLY fast. Well, the numbers I got from Quick Index, for example, in medium resulotion, gave the TT a GEM index of 166% relative to the STE. That's about 180% relative to a Mega ST. So in other words, the TT, running TOS 1.4 (or close enough to it) on a 68030 was not even twice as fast as an 8MHz 68000 with blitter support. Take away the blitter and you're slightly over 200%. However, take into account that you can drop in Jim Allen's T16 accelerator board into almost any ST, and for $300 give yourself a 50% speed boost. That cuts the lead of the TT down to about 30% at best for screen redraws, and about 200% for general CPU operations. Needless to say, I wasn't kidding last week when I said that an ST running Quick ST blows away the TT in screen performance. Text operations gave similar results, and about the only screen operation the TT was good at was VT52 scrolling. That's due to the 32- bit data bus of the 68030 compared to the 68000's 16-bit bus. Don't forget also that there will be the usual incompatibility problems with older ST software. You think TOS 1.4 compatiblity was bad. Wait till they try running the stuff on a 68030! So, the TT is a nifty machine, and for only $4000 you can emulate an AT and run UNIX as well. I should say "you'll be able to...". I still have bad memories of the 1450XLD and 260ST. You all remember the 260ST? The original ST, until they actually tried to put it together and realized they couldn't make TOS run on 256K. Hopefully TOS 2.0 will run on 2 meg! But in all fairness, since this information was presented by ATARI CANADA, in Canada, and was not just another Sunnyvale stab in the dark about what they might ship in 3 years, I have faith that Atari Canada will deliver as promised. They delivered on the STE and STacy and CD-ROM, so all I can say is that I'm glad I'm not in the US. About 6 months ago, I was wetting my pants and then some over the STE. Not so for the TT, at least not yet. It's out of the price range of most casual ST users, and as an ST compatible machine, offers less than a doubling of power for more than double the price of, say, a Mega ST 2. Sure the TT specific software written for the 68030 will be faster, but that will mean buying a whole new set of software. I think what will probably evolve will be some sort of a 68030 upgrade for existing STs (c'mon Dave!), similar to the kind of upgrades we saw a few years ago for converting 8088 machine to 80286 machines. I've already got 3 STs and 2 monitors, I don't need more. I would much rather pay $1000 or more to upgrade my 4 meg STE to a 4 meg STE/030 instead of shelling out another $4000 for something only slightly better. The TT will still hopefully sell well in the business market. The hardware is certainly there and at the right price. Perhaps not as fast as we'd like to believe, but the same hype existed with the 386 chip. Perhaps the TT will follow the same path as 386 machines, and a year or two from now we'll see a more affordable TT working its way into the home market replacing the then obsolete 68000 based STs. Well, that's the way I see it anyway. - Darek [ If I may add two comments: 1. Darek tested a machine with just 2 megs of RAM. RAM above 2 megs on the TT operates in burst mode and operates roughly 50% faster. It would be interesting to see a comparison of programs running in fast and slow ram. 2. Lots of companies have not put blitters in 68030 boxes because they don't provide much of a speed increase. Sun, HP, Apollo, and NeXT come to mind as examples. Now if Atari would get the TT out the door and into a local dealer's store, I'll be happy. -- greg ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the full text of a Press Release from ATARI in NEW ZEALAND giving the MOST COMPLETE DESCRIPTION of the ATARI TT030 COMPUTER to date. It EXPLAINS PORTS, CARDS, EXPANSION, AND ADMITS TO THE FACT THAT THE TT WILL RUN AT 32 MHZ, not the 16 mhz that many complained of. THIS WILL NOT FURTHER DELAY THE TT030, EXPECTED TO BE AVAILABLE WITHIN WEEKS. Presented by Z*NET ATARI ONLINE NEWS SERVICE, the ones to trust for detailed ATARI NEWS FIRST. NOT ARCED, about 8 screens, you NEED to read this NOW..... --------------------------------- This document is Press Information (VERBATIM including capitalization, spacing, and spelling) provided by SOFTWARE SUPPLIES, AKA ATARI NEW ZEALAND, on ATARI Logo paper. Transcribed using optical character reader for precise conversion by Z*NET NEWS SERVICE, 7/9/90. Z*Net assumes no responsibility for the accuracy of the information itself. -------------------------------------------- ATARI TT030 Compatible Expandible Flexible Affordable The Atari TT030 - Compatible with the Atari ST, 1000"s of software titles already available - 3 New Graphics modes: 320 x 480 with 256 colours from a palette of 4096 640 x 480 with 16 colours from a palette of 4096 1280 x 960 high resolution monochrome - Stereo 8-bit PCM sound - 68030 running at 32 Mhz - 68881 Floating Point co-processor - 2 Megabytes of RAM, expandable to 26 Mb - SCSI and ASCI with DMA built in - Internal Hard disk - SCC LAN port with DMA - Four serial ports - Parallel port - MIDI ports - Detachable keyboard - Internal A24/D16 VME card slot - Real time clock with non-volatile RAM - ROM cartridge slot - External floppy connector Comparison of standard features Amiga 3000 Mac IIcx Atari TT030 CPU 68030 68030 68030 FPU Yes Yes Yes Clock speed 16 Mhz - 32 Mhz RAM 2 to 17 1 to 32 2 to 26 Burst Mode Yes No Yes ROM 512K 256K 512K Graphics Max resolution 1280 x 480 Optional 1280 x 960 Interlaced Non-interlaced Max colours 32 Colours 256 Colours from 4096 from 4096 Max video RAM 1 Mb 8 Mb Sound Stereo Stereo Stereo Expansion Proprietary NuBus VME Hard disk DMA Non-DMA DMA Floppy disk Proprietary Proprietary PC compatible Network No Yes Yes, DMA Serial 1 x RS232 2 x RS232 4 x RS232 Parallel Yes No Yes MIDI No No Yes ROM Cartridge No No Yes The Atari TT030 Hardware The TT030 (Thirty-two/Thirty-two bit) is the first member of a new series of Atari computers designed as enhanced versions of the existing ST and MEGA family. The TT series maintains compatibility with the ST/MEGA architecture, but uses the Motorola 68030 microprocessor and provides enhanced graphics and sound. The TT030 is also designed to run Unix (Unix is a trademark of AT&T). The TT030 is based on the high performance 32-bit Motorola MC68030 processor running at a 32 Mhz clock frequency. The 68030 includes on-chip data and instruction caches which can be filled from some regions of memory in bursts of double word fetches The architecture also includes the industry standard VME bus to facilitate expansion. The system supports the latest revision (C.1) of the VME bus specification. The TT030 can accommodate one single-Eurocard (3U) A24/D 16 or A 16/D 16 slave-only VME board, The TT series is expected to function in an environment with other TTs and even machines from different manufacturers. To facilitate connectivity, each system has an on-board port for a moderate speed LAN. If the LAN is not being used, the port can be programmed to be a standard RS232C port. Through an optional VME bus-based or SCSI-based Ethernet controller, the TT also has the capability of connecting to heterogeneous Ethernet networks. The TT030 has three additional standard RS-232C serial ports for connection to modems, display terminals, or digitizing tablets. The hardware features of the TT030 include: - Motorola MC68030 at 32MHz - Motorola MC68881 Floating Point Coprocessor (the coprocessor is socketed, so that it can be optionally upgraded to a MC68882) - ST RAM: 2 Mbyte of ST-compatible dual-purpose (video/system) RAM, expandable by an add-on daughterboard containing a further 2 or 8 Mbyte of dual-purpose memory. This 64-bit wide memory appears 32 bits wide to the processor and SCSI/SCC DMA engines TT video logic has access to this memory on a time critical basis. The remaining system logic, including the processor, can access this memory in the alternate 250 nS TIME SLICES. - TT BURST MODE RAM: provision for a daughter-board that will accept either 4 x 1 Mbyte or 4 x 4 Mbyte SIMMS, allowing another 4 Mb or 16 Mb expansion. This RAM can only be accessed by the processor, the SCSI DMA Engine, and the SCC Network DMA Engine. The 68030 can take advantage of burst-mode for filling its internal cache from this RAM. - 4 socketed 1 Mbit ROMS, providing 512 Kbyte of ROM space. - Internal video modes that are a superset of those in the Atari ST/STe series using an analog RGB (VGA-like) colour monitor: pixels rows colors palette 320 200 16 4096 (STe compatible) 640 200 4 4096 (STe compatible) 640 400 2 4096 (STe superset) 320 480 256 4096 640 480 16 4096 using a high resolution ECL monochrome monitor 1280 960 black on white - parallel I/O port, generally used for Parallel printer output - internal speaker, which can be disabled under software control - 2 low-speed asynchronous serial I/O ports (one from each of two 68901 MFPS) at programmable baud rates up to 19.2 baud - 2 high-speed asynchronous/SDLC Serial I/O ports (from a Zilog 8530 SCC). One part can be programmed to be a Local Talk compatible LAN interface with a proprietary single channel DMA controller. The other port is intended for use as an asynchronous AS-232 port with programmable split baud rates. - battery backed-up real time clock (RTC) with 50 bytes of non-volatile RAM - ST/MEGA compatible intelligent keyboard, with mouse and joystick ports including support for a 3 button mouse - Atari ACSI DMA channel (for Atari Hard Disk, Laser Printer, CD-ROM, etc) - Floppy disk controller and interface sharing the ACSI DMA channel - Musical Instrument Digital Interface (MIDI) STe compatible DMA sound engine with programmable volume and tone control which can play back stereo 8-bit samples at rates up to 50 Khz - Atari ST compatible cartridge port (128 Kbyte Storage) - SCSI interface using 23-pin connector implemented with the NCR 5380 SCSI controller chip and a proprietary DMA controller - Industry standard VME bus for expansion When comparing the TT030 with the competition, four important features stand out: - flicker-free, high resolution colour graphics built-in as standard - high bus bandwidth, independent of video resolution - excellent connectivity including four RS232 ports, MIDI, LAN, ASCI & SCSI. - high speed burst-mode RAM, 32 Mhz CPU clock speed.
don@vax1.acs.udel.EDU (Donald R Lloyd) (07/20/90)
In article <1990Jul19.160526.2215@arcsun.arc.ab.ca> erkamp@arcsun.UUCP (Bob Erkamp) writes: > > Comparison of standard features > > Amiga 3000 Mac IIcx Atari TT030 > >CPU 68030 68030 68030 >FPU Yes Yes Yes >Clock speed 16 Mhz - 32 Mhz Yes, a 16MHz A3000 is available (or will be), but the currently shipping model priced closest to the TT ($3995, 2MB, 40MB HD) runs at 25. It also has a coprocessor slot for full '040 support ('030 will still handle menial i/o while '040 does number-crunching) when the chip becomes available. >RAM 2 to 17 1 to 32 2 to 26 ^^^^^^ That's 2-18, and it's on the motherboard itself. Will autoconfigure up to 1.7 GB, and even more can be added via AddMem. >Burst Mode Yes No Yes >ROM 512K 256K 512K >Graphics > Max resolution 1280 x 480 Optional 1280 x 960 > Interlaced Non-interlaced Amiga: Max non-interlaced resolution= 640 x 480 (more w/overscan). 1280 x 800 on Moniterm or A2024 monitors. Mac: I think 640 x 480 is pretty standard. > Max colours 32 Colours 256 Colours > from 4096 from 4096 Amiga: Try 4096 out of 4096. Mac: Most often 256 out of 16 million. > Max video RAM 1 Mb 8 Mb ^^^^^ 2 MB with current chipset >Sound Stereo Stereo Stereo >Expansion Proprietary NuBus VME Amiga 3000 has four Zorro III slots, 2 AT slots, and special video & coprocessor slots. >Hard disk DMA Non-DMA DMA >Floppy disk Proprietary Proprietary PC compatible ^^^^^^^^ But drive can easily be mounted with PC-compatible file system >Network No Yes Yes, DMA ^^^ Not built in but available >Serial 1 x RS232 2 x RS232 4 x RS232 >Parallel Yes No Yes >MIDI No No Yes >ROM Cartridge No No Yes > > The Atari TT030 Hardware > >sound. The TT030 is also designed to run Unix (Unix is a >trademark of AT&T). As is the 3000, and Apple's AUX 2.0 is supposed to be pretty powerful (but slow) when it gets here. >The architecture also includes the industry standard VME bus to >facilitate expansion. The system supports the latest revision >(C.1) of the VME bus specification. The TT030 can accommodate one >single-Eurocard (3U) A24/D 16 or A 16/D 16 slave-only VME board, Only one?!?! >When comparing the TT030 with the competition, four important >features stand out: > > - flicker-free, high resolution colour graphics built-in as > standard Same on A3000. Mac capable of 32-bit color. > - high bus bandwidth, independent of video resolution The A3000 has a separate bus for video & sound, freeing up the bus for other activity. > - excellent connectivity including four RS232 ports, MIDI, > LAN, ASCI & SCSI. This is probably the TT's strong point. Not trying to start a flame war; just trying to correct some misinformation and comment on the TT's advantages/disadvantages as compared to its competition (based on the specs you quoted for the TT, assuming they're accurate). IMHO, the ST line is already too far gone in the US for the TT to make any appreciable sales. What little image Atari has in the general computer marketplace is generally a negative one, despite the fact that they do make some decent computers... The Mac, although still grossly overpriced and somewhat underpowered, has a large software/hardware base and a generally positive image in the marketplace, and more high-end expansion options are available for it. The Amiga 3000 and its relatives don't have too much of an image either, but I've lately seen signs that this is changing. Things like AmigaVision, CDTV, DCTV, Unix SYS5r4, and the Video toaster will keep its sales increasing. Not to mention that in the past year or so, Commodore has really done a tremendous job of getting its act together. DOS machines: ick. Unfortunately, they're cheap and popular, and will continue to be far into the future (ugh). Atari really needs to push the TT's networkability and speed advantage if they want much market penetration. They also need to implement an educational program! Because of CBM'd ed discount, I can get a 25 MHz 3000 and multisync monitor for $3039 (and probably will, when I save up enough cash). -- Gibberish .sig for sale or lease. is spoken Contact don@vax1.acs.udel.edu for more information. here. DISCLAIMER: It's all YOUR fault.
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (07/20/90)
I wish to thank the person who posted that lengthy article concerning the
TT. It is the most informative post I've seen so far on the subject.
A few comments:
1. It was interesting to note the rather healthy dose of cynicism Darek
gives whenever the name of Atari is in the same sentence. I guess
we can't blame him. And this guy is one of the biggest supporters
of the ST line as far as I can ascertain! Hehe, I love it...
2. The chart posted by Atari NZ regarding the TT specs (reporduced below)
is a bit irritating. It compares a 32mhz (I'll consider it 16mhz until
someone SEES/USES a 32mhz model) TT against 16mhz models made by
competitors. This is absolute bullsh*t. The Amiga 3000 is offered
in a 25mhz version (Which you can buy TODAY at a lower price than
those quoted for the TT) and the MacII family has a 25mhz and
*40mhz* versions which you can go right out an purchase now. While
the Macs may be more pricey, they are available NOW and have been
for quite some time. As far as the A3000 goes, I think the quoted
prices for the TT are higher when you consider that you must go
out and buy an EXPENSIVE multisync monitor to handle ALL of its
various display modes.
3. As Darek noted, TOS v.X.X has and seems doomed to be forever buggy.
The other machines listed on the table seem to have better support
for OS updates. Are you willing to buy computer X slightly cheaper
now only to be hung out to dry when it comes time for user support?
4. Also, as Darek noted, if/when Dave Small produces a 030 upgrade for
the ST, you could buy a NEW Mega 2 system and a $1500 030 upgrade
and still save well over $1000 in the cost of the TT. Go figger...
Anyway, here is the table again for those who missed it...
Comparison of standard features
Amiga 3000 Mac IIcx Atari TT030
CPU 68030 68030 68030
FPU Yes Yes Yes
Clock speed 16 Mhz - 32 Mhz
RAM 2 to 17 1 to 32 2 to 26
Burst Mode Yes No Yes
ROM 512K 256K 512K
Graphics
Max resolution 1280 x 480 Optional 1280 x 960
Interlaced Non-interlaced
Max colours 32 Colours 256 Colours
from 4096 from 4096
Max video RAM 1 Mb 8 Mb
Sound Stereo Stereo Stereo
Expansion Proprietary NuBus VME
Hard disk DMA Non-DMA DMA
Floppy disk Proprietary Proprietary PC compatible
Network No Yes Yes, DMA
Serial 1 x RS232 2 x RS232 4 x RS232
Parallel Yes No Yes
MIDI No No Yes
ROM Cartridge No No Yes
Cheers,
Chris
------------------------------+---------------------------
Chris Mauritz |Donde hay una cerveza
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |hay un plan.
(c)All rights reserved. |
Send flames to /dev/null |El Guerrero Aereo es el rey!
------------------------------+---------------------------cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (07/20/90)
I wish to thank the person who posted that lengthy article concerning the
TT. It is the most informative post I've seen so far on the subject.
A few comments:
1. It was interesting to note the rather healthy dose of cynicism Darek
gives whenever the name of Atari is in the same sentence. I guess
we can't blame him. And this guy is one of the biggest supporters
of the ST line as far as I can ascertain! Hehe, I love it...
2. The chart posted by Atari NZ regarding the TT specs (reporduced below)
is a bit irritating. It compares a 32mhz (I'll consider it 16mhz until
someone SEES/USES a 32mhz model) TT against 16mhz models made by
competitors. This is absolute bullsh*t. The Amiga 3000 is offered
in a 25mhz version (Which you can buy TODAY at a lower price than
those quoted for the TT) and the MacII family has a 25mhz and
*40mhz* versions which you can go right out an purchase now. While
the Macs may be more pricey, they are available NOW and have been
for quite some time. As far as the A3000 goes, I think the quoted
prices for the TT are higher when you consider that you must go
out and buy an EXPENSIVE multisync monitor to handle ALL of its
various display modes.
3. The A3000 comes with a 68882 math coprocessor running at 25mhz,
the TT comes with the slower 68881. I wonder what Atari will
charge for the upgrade if you want/need it?
4. As Darek noted, TOS v.X.X has and seems doomed to be forever buggy.
The other machines listed on the table seem to have better support
for OS updates. Are you willing to buy computer X slightly cheaper
now only to be hung out to dry when it comes time for user support?
5. Also, as Darek noted, if/when Dave Small produces a 030 upgrade for
the ST, you could buy a NEW Mega 2 system and a $1500 030 upgrade
and still save well over $1000 in the cost of the TT. Go figger...
Anyway, here is the table again for those who missed it...
Comparison of standard features
Amiga 3000 Mac IIcx Atari TT030
CPU 68030 68030 68030
FPU Yes Yes Yes
Clock speed 16 Mhz - 32 Mhz
RAM 2 to 17 1 to 32 2 to 26
Burst Mode Yes No Yes
ROM 512K 256K 512K
Graphics
Max resolution 1280 x 480 Optional 1280 x 960
Interlaced Non-interlaced
Max colours 32 Colours 256 Colours
from 4096 from 4096
Max video RAM 1 Mb 8 Mb
Sound Stereo Stereo Stereo
Expansion Proprietary NuBus VME
Hard disk DMA Non-DMA DMA
Floppy disk Proprietary Proprietary PC compatible
Network No Yes Yes, DMA
Serial 1 x RS232 2 x RS232 4 x RS232
Parallel Yes No Yes
MIDI No No Yes
ROM Cartridge No No Yes
Cheers,
Chris
------------------------------+---------------------------
Chris Mauritz |Donde hay una cerveza
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |hay un plan.
(c)All rights reserved. |
Send flames to /dev/null |El Guerrero Aereo es el rey!
------------------------------+---------------------------daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (07/20/90)
In article <1990Jul19.160526.2215@arcsun.arc.ab.ca> erkamp@arcsun.UUCP (Bob Erkamp) writes: >The architecture also includes the industry standard VME bus to >facilitate expansion. The system supports the latest revision >(C.1) of the VME bus specification. The TT030 can accommodate one >single-Eurocard (3U) A24/D 16 or A 16/D 16 slave-only VME board, While much of the system looks pretty competitive (of course all such feature comparison tables yet created are designed to favor the choice of their creators), I think this is a big mistake. Any new 32 bit machine with a 16-bit only expansion bus isn't going to go over well. New Amigas and Macs, along with an ever-increasing number of PCs, are providing multiple 32 bit slots. You can always plan to build everything in, but even Apple has had to admit that doesn't work very well. The choice of an industry standard bus could be a good one, especially now that VME supports chips are dense enough that you could have something other than the VME support logic in the space of a 3U card. But most of the new VME cards on the market are full 32 bit 6U and 9U cards; the simple I/O type things most desktop computer buses are normally doing are generally handled by VME mezzanine buses these days. But who knows, Apple was successful in creating a desktop version of NuBus. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "I have been given the freedom to do as I see fit" -REM
hyc@math.lsa.umich.edu (Howard Chu) (07/21/90)
In article <1990Jul20.141733.5567@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >I wish to thank the person who posted that lengthy article concerning the >TT. It is the most informative post I've seen so far on the subject. I'll second the thanks... >A few comments: > >1. It was interesting to note the rather healthy dose of cynicism Darek > gives whenever the name of Atari is in the same sentence. I guess > we can't blame him. And this guy is one of the biggest supporters > of the ST line as far as I can ascertain! Hehe, I love it... Honesty is the best policy, eh? I thought it was pretty good... >2. The chart posted by Atari NZ regarding the TT specs (reporduced below) > is a bit irritating. It compares a 32mhz (I'll consider it 16mhz until > someone SEES/USES a 32mhz model) TT against 16mhz models made by > competitors. This is absolute bullsh*t. The Amiga 3000 is offered > in a 25mhz version (Which you can buy TODAY at a lower price than > those quoted for the TT) and the MacII family has a 25mhz and > *40mhz* versions which you can go right out an purchase now. While > the Macs may be more pricey, they are available NOW and have been > for quite some time. As far as the A3000 goes, I think the quoted > prices for the TT are higher when you consider that you must go > out and buy an EXPENSIVE multisync monitor to handle ALL of its > various display modes. Multisync monitors aren't all that expensive, really. $380-$500 for a decent one in Computer Shopper. I was looking thru the Apple Educational Discount price list that was posted in misc.forsale.xxx. Even at this discount, a comparable 16MHz Mac IIcx system would cost $5140.50. (2 meg RAM, 40 MB HD, 8 bit video card, Apple RGB monitor.) For the 25MHz Mac IIci, add $800 or so to the price. At least as far as Apple is concerned, it's really tough to put together a decent comparison chart, because "comparable price" yields a useless Mac system, and "comparable features" yields a sky-high price. I don't have any pricing info on the Amiga 3000 line, but I'll accept your statement. Someone else already mentioned the 25MHz A3000 here anyway... (I really don't want to start an Amiga/Atari war here. Especially since I have so much fun bashing Macs, I don't want to get distracted... }-) >3. The A3000 comes with a 68882 math coprocessor running at 25mhz, > the TT comes with the slower 68881. I wonder what Atari will > charge for the upgrade if you want/need it? I don't think it'll matter. The 68882 is pin-compatible with the 68881, and I've seen a couple places advertising the 68882s for up to $100 *less* than their 68881 prices. (Don't ask me, it wasn't a typo. I called 'em up to verify. Mebbe the 881s aren't being produced in quantity, so they're getting scarcer.) >4. As Darek noted, TOS v.X.X has and seems doomed to be forever buggy. > The other machines listed on the table seem to have better support > for OS updates. Are you willing to buy computer X slightly cheaper > now only to be hung out to dry when it comes time for user support? I am. If it's running Unix, (which seems to be the only sensible thing to do with an '030 at your disposal... }-) software support is a non-issue. Usenet has always been better software support than any program I've ever seen from any vendor. >5. Also, as Darek noted, if/when Dave Small produces a 030 upgrade for > the ST, you could buy a NEW Mega 2 system and a $1500 030 upgrade > and still save well over $1000 in the cost of the TT. Go figger... Yeah, this one's an interesting point. Still thinking about it. I guess we wait till the upgrade becomes available. For folks like me who just want more compute speed, this would be a good way to go. But you won't get the new video modes or the 12 bit palette this way. How much does a JRI color board cost? I dunno, I think there are enough new things that this is a sizeable step up from a *Mega or ST*. It's not as far a leap above an STe, though... >Anyway, here is the table again for those who missed it... > Comparison of standard features > Amiga 3000 Mac IIcx Atari TT030 >CPU 68030 68030 68030 >FPU Yes Yes Yes >Clock speed 16 Mhz - 32 Mhz >RAM 2 to 17 1 to 32 2 to 26 >Burst Mode Yes No Yes >ROM 512K 256K 512K >Graphics > Max resolution 1280 x 480 Optional 1280 x 960 > Interlaced Non-interlaced > Max colours 32 Colours 256 Colours > from 4096 from 4096 > Max video RAM 1 Mb 8 Mb >Sound Stereo Stereo Stereo >Expansion Proprietary NuBus VME >Hard disk DMA Non-DMA DMA >Floppy disk Proprietary Proprietary PC compatible >Network No Yes Yes, DMA >Serial 1 x RS232 2 x RS232 4 x RS232 >Parallel Yes No Yes >MIDI No No Yes >ROM Cartridge No No Yes Hey, one line they forgot: KEYBOARD yes OPTIONAL!! Yes Mouse is optional??!! $165 for a stupid *keyboard* ?? And these are the Educational Discount prices? Geeze... Makes you wonder at the folks running "Higher Education" ... -- -- Howard Chu @ University of Michigan one million data bits stored on a chip, one million bits per chip if one of those data bits happens to flip, one million data bits stored on the chip...
gl8f@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (07/22/90)
In article <1990Jul20.233102.24577@math.lsa.umich.edu> hyc@math.lsa.umich.edu (Howard Chu) writes: >In article <1990Jul20.141733.5567@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >>I wish to thank the person who posted that lengthy article concerning the >>TT. It is the most informative post I've seen so far on the subject. > >I'll second the thanks... The press release and the review of the TT both appeared in Z*Net quite a few issues ago. In fact, the review was discussed on this group soon afterwards in regards to the TT speedup ;-) To subscribe to Z*Net, send mail to stzmagazine-request@virginia.edu. -- "In fact you should not be involved in IRC." -- Phil Howard
MICHAEL_ARTHUR@bdt.UUCP (07/22/90)
Just noticed your message about Z-Net's "official" press release from Atari NZ about the 32 MHZ TT... Atari NZ itself said that it did no such press release, and that it knew nothing about one having being done... In fact, the only source of the "Atari NZ press release" seems to have been Z-Net.... Anyhow, the info about the 32 MHZ TT is real, since Atari Netherlands announced it and posted it online. Also, a 32 MHZ TT is rumored to be in Canada, with more credibility than a UFO sighting... However, it seems that the Katzenjammers at Sunnyvale will "bestow" the US with a '16' first.... /s
mjv@brownvm.brown.edu (Marshall Vale) (07/23/90)
In article <1990Jul20.233102.24577@math.lsa.umich.edu> hyc@math.lsa.umich.edu (Howard Chu) writes: > I was looking thru the Apple Educational Discount price list that was > posted in misc.forsale.xxx. Even at this discount, a comparable 16MHz Mac IIcx > system would cost $5140.50. (2 meg RAM, 40 MB HD, 8 bit video card, Apple > RGB monitor.) For the 25MHz Mac IIci, add $800 or so to the price. Well that's all relative to which school you go to since each school is at a different discount level. Its some what less than a thousand dollars less here for the system you mentioned here at Brown. When I can get a nice system like a cx which has good support for a not that much more than what a TT costs then it gets harder to stay... It seems that Atari really needs to do something that makes everyone go wow! like they did with when the ST was released. It seems boosting the base TT up to 32Mhz might just do that. > > Comparison of standard features > > > Amiga 3000 Mac IIcx Atari TT030 This is one of the most lopsided tables I've seen recently (and I was just reading MacWorld :-). > >RAM 2 to 17 1 to 32 2 to 26 ^^ -- it's 8 meg under Mac OS > >ROM 512K 256K 512K ^^ -- they upped it 512k in the ci if I remember correctly. > > Max resolution 1280 x 480 Optional 1280 x 960 ^^ Optional graphics?? I haven't met a mac user who decided not buy the graphics capatibilities:-) That's stretching the definition a bit thin. Atari just didn't want to say that Mac graphics out-do the TT's graphics in the Mac II's base config. > >Hard disk DMA Non-DMA DMA ^^ Yeah, but just as fast in normal use. > KEYBOARD yes OPTIONAL!! Yes > > Mouse is optional??!! $165 for a stupid *keyboard* ?? And these are the > Educational Discount prices? Geeze... Makes you wonder at the folks > running "Higher Education" ... Well, the mouse does come with the computer but a lot of good that'll do you without the keyboard. $165 will get you the big AT keyboard, you get the smaller one for about half the price. Of course that's still a silly price since we all know that students are just Mr. Moneybags :-) Cheers, Marshall --mjv@brownvm.brown.edu
david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) (07/24/90)
I just wanted to comment on one thing Howard said: In article <1990Jul20.233102.24577@math.lsa.umich.edu> hyc@math.lsa.umich.edu (Howard Chu) writes: >I am. If it's running Unix, (which seems to be the only sensible thing to >do with an '030 at your disposal... }-) software support is a non-issue. >Usenet has always been better software support than any program I've ever >seen from any vendor. I disagree that software support for Unix is a non-issue. Perhaps that may be true for a "toy" machine (for personal use), but for professional development, one really hairy driver bug which the vendor can't fix can really foul up a project and cost lot's of $$$. End-user training type support isn't a big deal. There are lot's of people that can help with that. It's the vendor supplied drivers and kernel hacks that can be a problem if the vendor can't (or won't) fix broken things, especially if you're a VAR and want to sell the platform to clients. The thing has to work. The turn-key system buyer isn't going to spend time on Usenet getting support. -- David Beckemeyer (david@bdt.UUCP) | "I'll forgive you Dad... If you have Beckemeyer Development Tools | a breath mint." P.O. Box 21575, Oakland, CA 94620 | Bart - "The Simpsons" UUCP: {uunet,ucbvax}!unisoft!bdt!david |
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (07/25/90)
In article <1990Jul20.233102.24577@math.lsa.umich.edu> hyc@math.lsa.umich.edu (Howard Chu) writes: >> ...the TT comes with the slower 68881. I wonder what Atari will >> charge for the upgrade if you want/need it? >I don't think it'll matter. The 68882 is pin-compatible with the 68881, It may very well matter, if the difference between 68881 and 68882 matters to you. While they are pin compatible, there's an awfully good chance that the TT will have a surface mounted 6888x. Which is all but impossible to replace with a different chip, unless you have specialized equipment. By the way, the 16MHz A3000s are also using the 16MHz 68881 at present, and it is surface mounted. I don't know which FPU is in the 15.8MHz Mac IIcx, but it is also surface mounted. >and I've seen a couple places advertising the 68882s for up to $100 *less* >than their 68881 prices. If you're paying anywhere _near_ $100 for a 16MHz '881 or '882, you might consider changing your store. I would imagine that Motorola isn't making many '881s these days, and I did hear that '882s are much easier to make than '881s in speeds of 25MHz on up. >Usenet has always been better software support than any program I've ever >seen from any vendor. Just where did they post that public domain schematic capture program? Maybe comp.source.when.hell.freezes.over? Yeah, that's the ticket. The same place they posted the PD clone of PageStream.... > -- Howard Chu @ University of Michigan -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy The Dave Haynie branch of the New Zealand Fan Club
Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com (07/25/90)
Lotsa stuff about comparing MacIIxxxx, Amiga 3000 and Atari TT.. Pretty silly stuff, considering the MacIIxxxx can be bought TODAY.. and.. the Amiga 3000 can be bought TODAY... and.. the Atari TT is still just a vapor daydream... The question is: Do you want to compute on a 68030 based computer NOW, or do you want to wait, and wait, and wait... until the Atari Amateur Corp. gets something out onto the market..? BobR
Aaron.Roydhouse@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Aaron Roydhouse) (07/26/90)
In article <comp.sys.atari.st/6267> daveh@cbmvax (Dave Haynie) writes: >It may very well matter, if the difference between 68881 and 68882 matters >to you. While they are pin compatible, there's an awfully good chance that ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Awfully nil chance actually - if you had read the documentation you would see it specifically states that the supplied 68881 _is_ socketed for the stated reason of allowing for easy upgrade to 68882. >the TT will have a surface mounted 6888x. Which is all but impossible to >replace with a different chip, unless you have specialized equipment. By >the way, the 16MHz A3000s are also using the 16MHz 68881 at present, and it >is surface mounted. I don't know which FPU is in the 15.8MHz Mac IIcx, but ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Oh dear, that's too bad. >it is also surface mounted. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Tough luck all round then. >If you're paying anywhere _near_ $100 for a 16MHz '881 or '882, you might >consider changing your store. I would imagine that Motorola isn't making >many '881s these days, and I did hear that '882s are much easier to make >than '881s in speeds of 25MHz on up. Well under $100 eh? Well that will make for a cheap TT upgrade for those who want it. >Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" I am inclined to agree that while I don't have a TT under my finger-tips, this discussion it pretty hyperthetical. However, as far as NZ goes - the TT's are apparantly on the ship and days away from the store. Yet there is still _no_ sign of the A3000... Aaron. -- _________________________________________________________________________ / \ The Entity | Phone: +64 4 850 988 Fax: +64 4 710 187 |@/ Aaron Roydhouse | SMail: PO Box 11-704, Wellington, New Zealand \__ aaron@comp.vuw.ac.nz | Quote: "Death - To stop sinning suddenly"
a23@mindlink.UUCP (Joel Murray) (07/26/90)
You wrote: > However, as far as NZ goes - the TT's are apparantly on the ship and > days away from the store. Yet there is still _no_ sign of the A3000... Hmm, perhaps you could tell that to the ten people I know who have bought A3000's last month and have them at home! Just because the A3000 hasn't made it to the shores of New Zealand doesn't mean that it's vaporware; it is in stores and available now in other parts of the world--like Canada and the US. -- // /// CIS: 73200,3117 | Clyde Wells for \X/oel ///urray Usenet: a23@mindlink.UUCP | Prime Minister!
cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) (07/26/90)
In article <1990Jul26.015801.15979@comp.vuw.ac.nz> Aaron.Roydhouse@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Aaron Roydhouse) writes: > > Well under $100 eh? Well that will make for a cheap TT upgrade for > those who want it. I don't know if you can use that sort of rational logic when dealing with our favorite company. One must only be reminded that 6 EPROMS (masked ROMS are even cheaper) to hold the TOS 1.4 OS "upgrade" cost about $40. Isn't Atari selling the chips for $100 and then you have to PAY someone else to install them? If you use Atari logic on the 68882 cost schedule, you'll see that the price may be a little higher than you'd imagined. I know...I know...a few whippersnappers are going to say you can install the things yourself and save on the installation costs. I don't think this can be expected of the typical computer user so I'm assuming he/she would bring the unit in to the local Maytag repairman to get the work done. :-) > However, as far as NZ goes - the TT's are apparantly on the ship and > days away from the store. Yet there is still _no_ sign of the A3000... That is odd. There are plenty for sale here. > >Aaron. >-- >_________________________________________________________________________ >/ \ The Entity | Phone: +64 4 850 988 Fax: +64 4 710 187 >|@/ Aaron Roydhouse | SMail: PO Box 11-704, Wellington, New Zealand >\__ aaron@comp.vuw.ac.nz | Quote: "Death - To stop sinning suddenly" Cheers, Chris ------------------------------+--------------------------- Chris Mauritz |Donde hay una cerveza cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |hay un plan. (c)All rights reserved. | Send flames to /dev/null |El Guerrero Aereo es el rey! ------------------------------+---------------------------
chu@acsu.buffalo.edu (john c chu) (07/26/90)
In article <1990Jul26.034324.20293@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >I don't know if you can use that sort of rational logic when dealing >with our favorite company. One must only be reminded that 6 EPROMS >(masked ROMS are even cheaper) to hold the TOS 1.4 OS "upgrade" >cost about $40. Isn't Atari selling the chips for $100 and then >you have to PAY someone else to install them? If you use Atari >logic on the 68882 cost schedule, you'll see that the price may >be a little higher than you'd imagined. Whippersnapper speaking here: 1.) I thought $100 included installation of TOS 1.4 if you wanted it. 2.) Who said you had to buy the co-processor from Atari? Look in your _Computer Shopper_, find a place that sells it for under $100, buy it, unsocket the 68881 and put the 68882 in the socket. (Or you could goto your local Maytag repairman and get it done. But I thought nobody ever visited the Maytag repairman :-) john chu@autarch.acsu.buffalo.edu
csbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Claus Brod ) (07/26/90)
Aaron.Roydhouse@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Aaron Roydhouse) writes: > However, as far as NZ goes - the TT's are apparantly on the ship and > days away from the store. Yet there is still _no_ sign of the A3000... Awfully wrong. The Amiga 3000 ships since end of June, even here in Germany. The TT won't ship before September because the 32 MHz version will be on display first at the Duesseldorf ATARI fair, August, 24-26. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Claus Brod, Am Felsenkeller 2, Things. Take. Time. D-8772 Marktheidenfeld, West Germany (Piet Hein) csbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de ----------------------------------------------------------------------
rehrauer@apollo.HP.COM (Steve Rehrauer) (07/26/90)
In article <1990Jul26.015801.15979@comp.vuw.ac.nz> Aaron.Roydhouse@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Aaron Roydhouse) writes: >In article <comp.sys.atari.st/6267> daveh@cbmvax (Dave Haynie) writes: >>It may very well matter, if the difference between 68881 and 68882 matters >>to you. While they are pin compatible, there's an awfully good chance that > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Awfully nil chance actually - if you had read the documentation you > would see it specifically states that the supplied 68881 _is_ socketed > for the stated reason of allowing for easy upgrade to 68882. > >>If you're paying anywhere _near_ $100 for a 16MHz '881 or '882, you might >>consider changing your store. I would imagine that Motorola isn't making >>many '881s these days, and I did hear that '882s are much easier to make >>than '881s in speeds of 25MHz on up. > > Well under $100 eh? Well that will make for a cheap TT upgrade for > those who want it. Assuming the specs yoiu've read are correct, and the TT really has a socket. Assuming Atari doesn't go to surface-mounting in Rev N+1 of the motherboard to save 25 cents per box. Assuming the TT ever ships. Assuming, assuming, assuming -- we're all assuming much about the TT. The A3000 is a bit more assumption-free; it actually exists. -- >>"Aaiiyeeee! Death from above!"<< | (Steve) rehrauer@apollo.hp.com "Spontaneous human combustion - what luck!"| Apollo Computer (Hewlett-Packard)
Aaron.Roydhouse@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Aaron Roydhouse) (07/27/90)
In article <comp.sys.atari.st/6307> csbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Claus Brod ) writes: >Aaron.Roydhouse@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Aaron Roydhouse) writes: >> However, as far as NZ goes - the TT's are apparantly on the ship and ^^ Please note Mr Brod - NZ: New Zealand, nowhere near Germany I'm afraid :-) >> days away from the store. Yet there is still _no_ sign of the A3000... >Awfully wrong. The Amiga 3000 ships since end of June, even here in >Germany. The TT won't ship before September because the 32 MHz version ^^^^^^^ Maybe, but that IS NOT true in NEW ZEALAND. The closest you can get to an A3000 is an avertising pamplet. There is one prototype A3000 that has been on display at two computer shows here in NZ, but that it all. We still have no idea of a price. Apparantly there is plenty of demand, but no supply. Some documentation problems were mentioned - I don't know. Basically; Commodore: - No comment Commodore dealers: - No idea - Don't ask us - Soon - Here, have a pamplet - Christmas? New Zealand is a but funny - we get Commodore stuff _after_ everyone else, but Atari stuff _before_ everyone else. Examples of the first would be: the A2000, A2500, and A3000 Examples of the later would be: the STE, Lynx, Megafile44, and apparently - the TT (32) (Of course other things - like the ATW, we don't get at all!) >will be on display first at the Duesseldorf ATARI fair, August, 24-26. I must say though, that I would be suprised if NZ had any 32Mhz TT's for sale before Germany - I guess time will tell. >Claus Brod, Am Felsenkeller 2, Things. Take. Time. Aaron. (from New Zealand - not Germany, or anywhere else) -- _________________________________________________________________________ / \ The Entity | Phone: +64 4 850 988 Fax: +64 4 710 187 |@/ Aaron Roydhouse | SMail: PO Box 11-704, Wellington, New Zealand \__ aaron@comp.vuw.ac.nz | Quote: "Death - To stop sinning suddenly"
hyc@math.lsa.umich.edu (Howard Chu) (07/27/90)
In article <13415@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax (Dave Haynie) writes: >>Usenet has always been better software support than any program I've ever >>seen from any vendor. > >Just where did they post that public domain schematic capture program? Maybe >comp.source.when.hell.freezes.over? Yeah, that's the ticket. The same place >they posted the PD clone of PageStream.... My wording was a bit ambiguous, I guess. I meant "program" in the sense of "technical support program", hot-line, software support, etc. I'd also require one thing in particular - source code for everything. I don't think this is a problem, to me, personally. I thought I conveyed that in my first posting, as well, that I was speaking only for myself. I hack on Unix kernels, and have a lot of fun doing so. I don't need technical support from my system vendors, I just need a source tape. Sort of going back to Dave Beckemeyer's comment as well. Yeah, I'm a hobbyist, I like to mess with computers. I'm pretty fortunate because I've got a good paying job to do pretty much the same thing. So, yeah, my computers are just toys for me. I was only speaking for myself anyway, y'know? As for "real programs" ... You can get Macsyma free from the Department of Energy. The Free Software Foundation puts out stuff that's way ahead of the "equivalent" commercial offerings. TeX is free for most systems, including Unix. There are, of course, "value added" commercial versions of TeX and Macsyma, but in my opinion (again, I'm just speaking for myself, OK?) they don't offer much extra. I'm not into publishing or design, so none of those issues bother me. As a techno-geek I don't feel that the question is valid. If you want a program but you don't want to pay $$ for it, then write it. It's kind of nice to have a system that a lot of other people are developing for, but it's no big deal to me. I don't have time to even glance at more than a few percent of the results anyway. If Atari were to close up shop tonight I would still tool along on my ST, same as I've been so far. -- -- Howard Chu @ University of Michigan one million data bits stored on a chip, one million bits per chip if one of those data bits happens to flip, one million data bits stored on the chip...
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (07/27/90)
In article <1990Jul26.015801.15979@comp.vuw.ac.nz> Aaron.Roydhouse@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Aaron Roydhouse) writes: > However, as far as NZ goes - the TT's are apparantly on the ship and > days away from the store. Yet there is still _no_ sign of the A3000... Either they're in the store, or they aren't. Unless, perhaps, you're thinking of Schrodinger's TT. I haven't been to NZ to check out your stores, but A3000s have been selling since mid-June here in the states and in Europe. There have been demo units available at most if not all dealers since May. >Aaron. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy The Dave Haynie branch of the New Zealand Fan Club
baffoni@aludra.usc.edu (Juxtaposer) (07/27/90)
In article <13415@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax (Dave Haynie) writes: >replace with a different chip, unless you have specialized equipment. By >the way, the 16MHz A3000s are also using the 16MHz 68881 at present, and it >is surface mounted. I don't know which FPU is in the 15.8MHz Mac IIcx, but ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I am not sure about this - Amiga just had some of there reps come over to USC to try and interest the school in buying/supporting the Amiga line. The rep at the demo said that the A3000s came with a coprocessor slot that when a 68040 is dropped in, the '40 takes over and uses the '30 as a slave processor. I am not sure that this is the same slot as would hold a 68881 (I am not up on the # of pins, etc.) but with the '40 in the machine, who cares if it has a 68881 or '82 when it has a '30 doing the job? Just my $.02 worth. (BTW, the demo the Amiga people put on was pretty darn good. They showed some nice genlock/multimedia demos with a laser-disk (of BladeRunner!) controller/ indexing/etc. and the possible uses of such a system. While I was watching it though, I couldn't help but feel this impossible wish that Atari might try the same thing: Bring in the TT (or even some high-end Megas) with the apropriate 3rd party wizbangs to make it look saleable. But then reality swept in and I realized that even if Atari wanted to try their hand at this end of the market, they would've probably choked on the support end if they were at all honest, or at least no one would have taken them seriously if they had guaranteed support for the ST line. <sigh> Oh well .... one can only but dream ...:j) -Mike Baffoni baffoni@alcor.usc.edu or mbaffoni@skat.usc.edu
davidli@simvax.labmed.umn.edu (07/27/90)
In article <11060@chaph.usc.edu>, baffoni@aludra.usc.edu (Juxtaposer) writes: > (BTW, the demo the Amiga people put on was pretty darn good. They showed some > nice genlock/multimedia demos with a laser-disk (of BladeRunner!) controller/ > indexing/etc. and the possible uses of such a system. Just as an aside here... the Apple II+ systems we had at the Biomedical Library Learning Resource Center (back in '85, when I was a consultant at the library) had may similar capabilities. It's nothing new, although the term 'multimedia' wasn't invented at that particular time. And it doesn't take a machine like the Amiga (or Mac, or ST) to do it. -- David Paschall-Zimbel davidli@simvax.labmed.umn.edu
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (07/27/90)
In article <11060@chaph.usc.edu> baffoni@aludra.usc.edu (Juxtaposer) writes: >In article <13415@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax (Dave Haynie) writes: >>By the way, the 16MHz A3000s are also using the 16MHz 68881 at present, and it >>is surface mounted. I don't know which FPU is in the 15.8MHz Mac IIcx, but > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >The rep at the demo said that the A3000s came with a coprocessor slot that >when a 68040 is dropped in, the '40 takes over and uses the '30 as a slave >processor. I am not sure that this is the same slot as would hold a 68881 >(I am not up on the # of pins, etc.) but with the '40 in the machine, who >cares if it has a 68881 or '82 when it has a '30 doing the job? The 68030 and 68882 are vastly different animals, regardless of whether or not you have a 68040 board in or not. The A3000's Coprocessor Slot is a 200 pin connector which will support cache, '040, or even a faster '882 if someone really wants to build such a critter. Add-on CPUs have the option of taking over from the 68030 or leaving it active, but no one's going to use the '030 as a math processor. Especially the '040, which has on-chip math between 5 and 10x the speed of '882 math. The reason Commodore and Apple surface mount these things has little to do with saving the cost of a $1.00 socket. Things get much quieter when they're surface mounted. And the cost of a part in a surface mount package can be as little as 1/2 that of the PGA part. Think of it as getting an '882 for the price of an '881, or something along those lines. >-Mike Baffoni -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy The Dave Haynie branch of the New Zealand Fan Club
gt1448b@prism.gatech.EDU (FORRAI,DAVID PAUL) (07/29/90)
Here's my $0.02 worth:
I think Atari would be wise to introduce a bottom line 16 MHz
TT equivalent to a 1040ST (except with FPU socket and SIMM RAM
upgrades) and sell it for $1500 (Maybe this is unreasonable, I'm
no hardware designer). If David Small believes there's a market for
a 16 MHz 68030 ST board, then it seems to me there would be a market
for this TT model. Many users don't need the bells and whistles
promised with the TT and it's ~$4000 US price tag. This machine
would be compatable with current software. It would appeal to
ST owners like myself, who are comfortable with their software and
peripherals, but occasionally have the need for extra power of the
68030 CPU. The biggest complaint from my Mac owning friends is the
lack of a low cost Mac II. I hope Atari doesn't follow Apple's lead.--
David P. Forrai
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt1448b
Internet: gt1448b@prism.gatech.edumarauder@nadia.stgt.sub.org (Stefan Hess) (08/03/90)
Today I saw the TT in its (current?) final version at a local dealer: 16 Mhz, 8 !! Mb ram, color Multisync monitor and 40 Mb hard disk. The price is 6,500 german marks, which is roughly $ 3,800 at the current exchange rate. My dealer said Atari is going to ship here in Germany after the Atari fair, which means beginning of September as soonest release date. By the way, the version I saw here was had an US keyboard. Stefan. -- _ _ /\V/\ MAR-3H Marauder Don't leave your dropship without one ! 8/"\8 ^ ^ marauder@nadia.stgt.sub.org / ++49-711-612800
D.C.Halliday@newcastle.ac.uk (D.C. Halliday) (08/06/90)
In article <1293@nadia.stgt.sub.org> marauder@nadia.stgt.sub.org (Stefan Hess) writes: >Today I saw the TT in its (current?) final version at a local dealer: > >16 Mhz, 8 !! Mb ram, color Multisync monitor and 40 Mb hard disk. > I have faith that there will be a 32Mhz TT. and soon :-) >The price is 6,500 german marks, which is roughly $ 3,800 at the current >exchange rate. My dealer said Atari is going to ship here in Germany after >the Atari fair, which means beginning of September as soonest release date. > >By the way, the version I saw here was had an US keyboard. > Dave H.
sgodun@pro-graphics.cts.com (Steve Godun) (01/06/91)
What do people think of TT? Is it the next step forward or backwards?
-- Steve Godun
Pro-Graphics BBS 908/469-0049 "It's better than a sharp stick in the eye!"
Internet: sgodun@pro-graphics.cts.com
UUCP: crash!pro-graphics!sgodun
ARPA: crash!pro-graphics!sgodun@nosc.milt68@nikhefh.nikhef.nl (Jos Vermaseren) (01/07/91)
"How do people think about the TT?" I think it is definitely a step forwards, but whether it is for everyone is a matter of what you do with computers. If you need your computer just for typing in text files that you take to your work for further processing you can save yourself the extra money. At the moment the price seems to be coming down. My guess is that they are selling many more than they had feared so the enlarged production gives lower prices. At the moment one can buy them already for 25% less than the price that Atari announced in october. (Here in Holland). This starts making it an excellent buy. Of course the exact pricelevel is irrelevant because one would have to compare it with the local prices of other computers, not with dollars, marks, guilders, francs, pounds etc. The computer is (if equally properly tuned) for my purposes faster by a factor 4. This assumes running in TT memory with the cache on. For a program like FORM each of these make a factor 1.5 difference. Also compilations with Turbo C go faster by a factor 4. This brings us to the software: Much of the software runs and much doesn't run. The earliest versions of Turbo-C would mishandle the 68020 option badly. There is a newer version that is much better, but the printf doesn't work right. But it improves. Shell programs are also rather problematic. Many programs assume fixed screen sizes (and sometimes addresses). On the other hand it is possible to run in ST mode. With the color monitor one can run in ST-Low, ST-medium, ST-high, TT-Low and TT-medium mode. In ST-high one has just a very fast ST and many of the programs that break in the TT modes will run. For developers this is very fine. One can try all resolutions easily. Atari Benelux tried to get some TT's to developers quickly, just to have as soon as possible some improved software. So I think that it is a step forward, but people who had to save their money for a long time to buy an ST won't be able to buy a TT for quite a while. On the other hand: My first ST was about 3300 guilders (currently $2000) and now they cost 1300 guilders (<$800). Note that only the ratio is relevant. Jos Vermaseren
saj@chinet.chi.il.us (Stephen Jacobs) (01/07/91)
In article <6719@crash.cts.com> sgodun@pro-graphics.cts.com (Steve Godun) writes: >What do people think of TT? Is it the next step forward or backwards? >-- Steve Godun > From descriptions and from what I've seen at shows, it's a nice machine that probably won't sell very well. There'll be disagreement, but I think it looks like a serious computer. It runs fast, with good backward compatibility. The 68030 is a good chip for programmers. The video is "Good Enough". But in a market that contains fast 80386 boxes and the NeXT, the TT isn't going to be a hit unless it's priced about where the MEGA STE is supposed to go. Pity about all the delays. While we're at it--anyone seen a TT or a MEGA STE offered for retail sale in the US? Steve J. saj@chinet.chi.il.us
waltrip@capd.jhuapl.edu (01/08/91)
In article <1991Jan07.145558.21047@chinet.chi.il.us>, saj@chinet.chi.il.us (Stephen Jacobs) writes: > In article <6719@crash.cts.com> sgodun@pro-graphics.cts.com (Steve Godun) writes: [...stuff deleted...] > While we're at it--anyone seen a TT or a MEGA STE offered for retail sale in > the US? Sort of. I saw an ad by Toad Computers that included prices and specs but said "Call for Availability". I didn't but if you want to call their phone number is (301)544-6943. I have no connection with Toad Computers (but I like their Toad cartoon figure:^). > Steve J. saj@chinet.chi.il.us c.f.waltrip DDN: waltrip@capsrv.jhuapl.edu Opinions expressed are my own.
jwalsh@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (John Lawrence Walsh) (03/15/91)
Does anyone know when the TT will be available in the US, and why the H*ll it is taking so long. I have heard that the Amiga 3000 is a *much* better, and faster system then the TT. I am beginning to get the feeling that Atari is verging on bankruptcy. They have never offered support for any of their products, what makes people want to spend $3000 for a system like this? Also, what do people think of what Dave Small said about the TT? "you can't set the monitor on top of the CPU....etc."? From the Genie developers sig, it seems that the TT has the same chip seating problem as the ST (try dropping a $3000 machine). Another unsatisfied customer JW
steve@thelake.mn.org (Steve Yelvington) (03/16/91)
[In article <10247@uwm.edu>,
jwalsh@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (John Lawrence Walsh) writes ... ]
> Does anyone know when the TT will be available in the US, and
> why the H*ll it is taking so long. I have heard that the Amiga
Taking so long? It's a grand old Atari tradition, isn't it?
My dealer had one in the store the other day. But not for sale -- it
belonged to a VAR who was showing it off. VARs appear to be getting them
ahead of dealers. The VAR in question packages Atari equipment and custom
software for driving numerically controlled stitching machines (making
bowling shirts and other uniforms with writing stitched on them). I
suppose that there's no danger of such a machine winding up in somebody's
home and offending the FCC radio interference zealots.
----
Steve Yelvington / P. O. Box 38 / Marine on St. Croix, MN 55047 USA
INTERNET: steve@thelake.mn.org UUCP: plains!umn-cs!thelake!stevecsc23042@sumax.seattleu.edu (Dave Jorgan) (03/16/91)
The article was somewhat different that what I would expect from START- but
I can trust Dave Small to give a honest appraisal of things.Hopefully they will
fix the monitor/case interference/support problem. I like the wealth of serial
ports on this machine, and indeed the large number of interface ports overall
makes for a lot of possibilities. The twin fans look nice too- should make it rliable.
The point I thought was strongest was the pricing scheme.Now true Atarians
will much rather buy a TT than a Mac even if the price is same. But if you
are trying to convince new people to sign on, then Atari has to (if they can)
revive the spirit of the orginal ST. This would be something like the TT
selling for $2000 w/monitor. Look, I don't know exactly what price point it
should be, but recall in the old days of 1985 when you could buy a ST for
$899 w/monitor that would outperform the corresponding PC or MAC ( Mac Plus,
IBM AT) at 2/3 to 1/2 the price.
It looks like the main Atari philosophy is to beat their
competitors price. They can still win a great victory doing this. If the
new Mega STE is sold cheaply enough (undercutting the Mac Classic) then
they have a really good shot at reclaiming market share. Greg Pratt
seems to have grasped this, at least one interview suggested this, of
beating the equivalent Apple product at every level (save perhaps for the
IIfx.) They have the machines to do it. The ST or 1040ST can be really
slashed to dominate the low-end. The Mega STE can hold off the pitiful
Mac Classic. And the TT can (if the price is lowered) either outperform
the Mac II LC or beat the IIsi in price (this will be a harder fight,
because it is tougher at this level to make the advantages of your machine
apparent,as opposed to the feeble Mac Classic.)
The TT is solid hardware. I would not waste too much time with Unix,
unless they can push a Unix box out the door for $2500 or less (thus giving
them a all new price/power point to deal from.) They should really go for
the hack and slash here. I don't think there would be as many complaints
about Atari service/support, if the machines were being sold at price-
war prices, like the old c-64 was. The price-slashing strategy might be
the best one for them and the Tramiel philosophy. Either that, or ax the
Tramiel sons. Proof that nepotism does not pay.......
Daveluoto@cs.Helsinki.FI (Markku Luoto) (03/16/91)
In article <10247@uwm.edu> jwalsh@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (John Lawrence Walsh) writes: > > Does anyone know when the TT will be available in the US, and > why the H*ll it is taking so long. No I don't know, but I've got one...they came out in europe 1.9.90 I have heard that the Amiga > 3000 is a *much* better, and faster system then the TT. Well, if you HEARD so then how come you don't buy one at instant ? I am > beginning to get the feeling that Atari is verging on bankruptcy. > WOW, then my TT would be a real collectors item ?!?!? $$$$$ They have never offered support for any of their products, what > makes people want to spend $3000 for a system like this? > That's true ! not even in finland.... but that's probably why it seems that the most dedicated usergroups, with GNOLEGEABLE users have formed around st/TT -here (ST-club with it's PD- librarys, monthly diskmagazine, developers meetings etc...) I think the st/TT being not the "safest" choice, it has dropped out many teenager kids who mostly play games (and used to use c64 and use amiga now) and PC/MAC type of users.... ST/TT is more distinctive type of thing... this flaming about amiga/st/TT being better or not is like arquing between cars: wether SAABs(st/tt) are better or worst than VOLVOs(amiga) but they both are better than LADAs(russian car and (PC/at/386/486) and are in totally dif- ferend price group than mercedes(mac) ???? I just happen to like saabs... and there's a certain destinction between most saab drivers, which aren't always that good. (here they say "SAABism is a desease!") ;-) but usually the ones who never drove one ;-) ;-) > Also, what do people think of what Dave Small said about the TT? > "you can't set the monitor on top of the CPU....etc."? again... this takes a little brains and coordination, but with that the monitor sits nicely on top of the central unit (why would you like to open covers and sit it on top of the cpu... for keeping it warm ??) -> I imagine that would be a little hard...but then..... ;-) ;-) I have a feelin the person also wonders about the "pen holder" in front of the machine... and what to do with it...? From the > Genie developers sig, it seems that the TT has the same chip > seating problem as the ST (try dropping a $3000 machine). What's that problem, while I'm not aware of...? > > > Another unsatisfied customer (not quite, you gotta buy something first ?) (Potential customer, maybe ?) have lafs & merry weather Verbier got three days of snow ! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >>>>>> " I'm completely operational & all my cicuits are functioning <<<<<< >>>>>> correctly...correc...corr...co...-! " : HAl9000 <<<<<< >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
mitsolid@acf5.NYU.EDU (Thanasis Mitsolides) (03/27/91)
/* acf5:comp.sys.atari.st / luoto@cs.Helsinki.FI (Markku Luoto) / 4:20 am Mar 16, 1991 */ In article <10247@uwm.edu> jwalsh@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (John Lawrence Walsh) writes: > > Does anyone know when the TT will be available in the US, and > why the H*ll it is taking so long. No I don't know, but I've got one...they came out in europe 1.9.90 I have heard that the Amiga > 3000 is a *much* better, and faster system then the TT. Well, if you HEARD so then how come you don't buy one at instant ? I am > beginning to get the feeling that Atari is verging on bankruptcy. > WOW, then my TT would be a real collectors item ?!?!? $$$$$ They have never offered support for any of their products, what > makes people want to spend $3000 for a system like this? > That's true ! not even in finland.... but that's probably why it seems that the most dedicated usergroups, with GNOLEGEABLE users have formed around st/TT -here (ST-club with it's PD- librarys, monthly diskmagazine, developers meetings etc...) I think the st/TT being not the "safest" choice, it has dropped out many teenager kids who mostly play games (and used to use c64 and use amiga now) and PC/MAC type of users.... ST/TT is more distinctive type of thing... this flaming about amiga/st/TT being better or not is like arquing between cars: wether SAABs(st/tt) are better or worst than VOLVOs(amiga) but they both are better than LADAs(russian car and (PC/at/386/486) and are in totally dif- ferend price group than mercedes(mac) ???? I just happen to like saabs... and there's a certain destinction between most saab drivers, which aren't always that good. (here they say "SAABism is a desease!") ;-) but usually the ones who never drove one ;-) ;-) > Also, what do people think of what Dave Small said about the TT? > "you can't set the monitor on top of the CPU....etc."? again... this takes a little brains and coordination, but with that the monitor sits nicely on top of the central unit (why would you like to open covers and sit it on top of the cpu... for keeping it warm ??) -> I imagine that would be a little hard...but then..... ;-) ;-) I have a feelin the person also wonders about the "pen holder" in front of the machine... and what to do with it...? From the > Genie developers sig, it seems that the TT has the same chip > seating problem as the ST (try dropping a $3000 machine). What's that problem, while I'm not aware of...? > > > Another unsatisfied customer (not quite, you gotta buy something first ?) (Potential customer, maybe ?) have lafs & merry weather Verbier got three days of snow ! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >>>>>> " I'm completely operational & all my cicuits are functioning <<<<<< >>>>>> correctly...correc...corr...co...-! " : HAl9000 <<<<<< >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< /* ---------- */ -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Internet: mitsolid@cs.nyu.edu (mitsolid%cs.nyu.edu@relay.cs.net) UUCP : ...!uunet!cmcl2!cs!mitsolid -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mitsolid@acf5.NYU.EDU (Thanasis Mitsolides) (03/27/91)
luoto@cs.Helsinki.FI (Markku Luoto) writes: > distinctive type of thing... this flaming about amiga/st/TT being > better or not is like arquing between cars: wether SAABs(st/tt) > are better or worst than VOLVOs(amiga) but they both are better > than LADAs(russian car and (PC/at/386/486) and are in totally dif- > ferend price group than mercedes(mac) ???? I just happen to like What an objective comparison! Do LADAs run twice as fast as VOLVOS? Do LADAs provide twice the resolution and 16 times the colors of VOLVOS? Do LADAs go to may places at once while VOLVOs only to one (Multitusking). Do LADAs use technology that VOLVOS will use 3 years later at best? Do LADAs go to more places that VOLVOs can (software)? Did you say no? Well then maybe my 486 is the VOLVO and your TT is the LADA. Funny thing is we both payed about the same. :-) Jeez... Your LADA Dealers must be really good! Thanasis -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Internet: mitsolid@cs.nyu.edu (mitsolid%cs.nyu.edu@relay.cs.net) UUCP : ...!uunet!cmcl2!cs!mitsolid -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
chuj@horton.colorado.edu (CHU JEFFREY) (06/03/91)
I am about to see on a purchase of a TT from a friend who knows another friend which is selling the machine. I think he mention of around the price of $1000.00 without a monitor. I of course could not believe the price was that low, but if it is I'm taking it! I needed to know some info before asking of it. 1) The TT is it a 32-BIT architecture? 2) Any expansion slots? (how many and what are they 8/16/32?) 3) MUTI-TASKING MACHINE RIGHT? 4) How many address registers 32? 5) What is the maximum memory addressable. 6) LAST question is ASSEMBLY develop for the TT available? I would ask some of these questions to the seller, but it would seem the seller would not know of these things otherwise he would probably sell it for more than what I was told. And to Steve what type of DEMOS should I look for to run on the TT? (It would seem that I have chosen the TT if that price is what it is). Thanks in ADVANCE Jeff
csbrod@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Claus Brod) (06/03/91)
chuj@horton.colorado.edu (CHU JEFFREY) writes: > 1) The TT is it a 32-BIT architecture? With a 68030 built-in - yes, a 32-bit architecture.\ > 2) Any expansion slots? (how many and what are they 8/16/32?) 1 VME slot, D16/A24. > 3) MUTI-TASKING MACHINE RIGHT? A multitasking TOS version is rumored to appear later this year or next year. > 4) How many address registers 32? 8 address registers (remember it's a 68030). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Claus Brod, Am Felsenkeller 2, Things. Take. Time. D-8772 Marktheidenfeld, Germany (Piet Hein) csbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de Claus_Brod@wue.maus.de ----------------------------------------------------------------------
neil@cs.hw.ac.uk (Neil Forsyth) (06/04/91)
In article <1991Jun3.122841.6020@informatik.uni-erlangen.de> csbrod@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Claus Brod) writes: >chuj@horton.colorado.edu (CHU JEFFREY) writes (WRT to the TT): >> 3) MUTI-TASKING MACHINE RIGHT? > >A multitasking TOS version is rumored to appear later this year or next >year. or the year after, or the year after that or ... :-) Sorry folks. I just couldn't resist it. No doubt Atari UK will have the new TOS, n+1 years after everyone else. +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ! DISCLAIMER:Unless otherwise stated, the above comments are entirely my own ! ! ! ! Neil Forsyth JANET: neil@uk.ac.hw.cs ! ! Dept. of Computer Science ARPA: neil@cs.hw.ac.uk ! ! Heriot-Watt University UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!neil ! ! Edinburgh, Scotland, UK "That was never 5 minutes!" ! +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+