vanam@pttesac.UUCP (02/28/87)
Last Saturday I went to the Commodore computer show in San Francisco. While there I saw Cltd's hard disks and was inspired to buy one. I was also eyeing Byte by Byte's PAL junior expansion/hard disk, but because of back orders, it wouldn't be available to me 'till April. A person in the Byte by Byte booth warned me that Cltd had done their expansion wrong; that they were not using the full Zorro specification and that as a result they required a hardware change in the Amiga. This bothered me since I was hoping to get a hard disk that day. When I asked one of the Cltd people about this, he said that they hadn't made any modifications to the Amiga's on display, and that as I could see they were working perfectly. When I said I wanted to buy one, and got my credit card out, the Cltd salesman asked me when I had bought my Amiga. I told him May '86. He said I might need to make a PAL upgrade because some of the older Amigas had a problem with a couple of PAL chips on the daughter board. Hmmm, I thought. Well I still wanted the hard disk. It's been quite a while since I've had to do any work on hardware, but I figured I could do it. The salesman gave me 2 new chips. He said they were faster than the older versions in the older Amigas. He also gave me a $20 little extension card to be used to connect the SCSI board to my external (Cltd) RAM board. I trusted them and bought myself a 20M unit for $849. When I got the unit home, I noticed that the SCSI interface board didn't look like the SCSI interface boards on the display Amigas in the show. Instead it looked just like my Cltd 1Meg external RAM board. Not that I minded the new look (it looked nicer), but I didn't like the idea of getting something that looked different from what was on display at the show when I wasn't told about it. I did the PAL upgrade on my Amiga's daughter board. It took me quite a while because I had a hell of a time getting the solder sucked out of three holes. I ended up having to take the old IC's out by cutting the pins where the solder wouldn't suck out, then heating and sucking and punching with a fine ice pick till I got those holes cleaned out. Very tedious. However the computer worked fine afterwards. I did a complete memory test of my external Cltd AMega board without a single failure. I also spent a few hours running all my important programs to make sure there weren't any glitches. Everything worked just like before. When I connected my new Cltd 20Meg hard disk and booted using Cltd's kickbench disk, things seemed to work OK until I used up some of my fast memory. Things were unpredictable. I would get random visits from the guru. I finally isolated the trouble to the combination of the hard disk and fast ram expansion not working together. Somewhere along the line I found some documentation on the hard disk in a directory which had no drawer icon. The documentation said that there may be a problem with the binddrivers command and that I should be sure and put the binddrivers command after the loadwb command in my startup file. Doing so helped a lot, but still I had some unexpected guru visits. Then I found some more documentation on the hard disk which said that I should use the mount command instead of the binddrivers command. Did that. Everything worked OK for a few hours, then right after running one of those game programs that takes over the machine, the hard disk was suddenly "NOT A DOS" ! No matter what I tried, rebooting, power off and on, etc, the hard disk was "NOT A DOS". In desperation I tried to format the disk. The format program said it was doing it, but would immediately abort without an explanation. I even tried partitioning the drive and formatting the separate (4) sections. Same trouble with format. Finally I tried removing my 1 Meg fast ram and lo and behold, the hard disk worked and everything was still there! (Whew). So now I'm running without my fast ram. I called Cltd customer service. Since I had already done the PAL upgrade, all they could tell me to do was to pack up the hard disk and send it to them. They would check it out and repair it if needed. Well, first I'm going to try my RAM again. It seemed like everything worked fine for about 3 hours, so maybe it's a loading or heat problem. I'd like to know more about it before I go sending things out. If anyone has had similar experiences or has suggestions, please let me know about them. Anything I learn I will share. Marnix
hutch@sdcsvax.UUCP (02/28/87)
<voodoo>
Strange that your C Ltd. aMEGA card should be the problem, I just got a
CMI Rom'd Kickstart and they had a mod from C Ltd. due to change in start
up sequence you get with ROMs instead of disk (faster too!!!). Due to
there well written and descriptive documentation, I tend to trust CMI.
When I talked to them, they had tried the ROMs with many add ons, and had
no problems (except with the aMEGA). When I first got the kit, the 1.2
disk with it had some PAL legs stuffed through it (thanks UPS :-). They
sent me another one by 2day UPS as soon as I called, so they seem to care.
At $134 it looks like the cheapest 256k expansion I can get.
--
Jim Hutchison UUCP: {dcdwest,ucbvax}!sdcsvax!hutch
ARPA: Hutch@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu
2049 6d61 7320 6c65 2066 6572 7270 7365 6e65 6974 676e 6920 206e 6874 7369 6120
7472 6369 656c 202c 2049 6572 7270 7365 6e65 2074 6e6f 796c 6d20 7379 6c65 2e66fnf@mcdsun.UUCP (02/28/87)
In article <383@pttesac.UUCP> vanam@pttesac.UUCP (Marnix van Ammers) writes: > >Last Saturday I went to the Commodore computer show in San Francisco. >While there I saw Cltd's hard disks and was inspired to buy one. I >[long description of problems getting disk to work with expansion ram] I have been going through much the same thing for the last few months with my CLtd drive and my ASDG Minirack with 4Mb. So far, here are the fixes I have tried: 1. Replace PALS with faster PALS (you've done this). 2. Tie all the ground pins of the PALS together, and to a solid board ground (reportedly required on some Amigas to get the CSA stuff to work) 3. Replace the MC68000P8 with an MC68000L8 (ceramic package, on theory that it might have better electrical characteristics or chip might be marginal). So far, each "fix" has improved the situation, from initially not being able to even boot to now being able to sometimes run for a day or so before guru'ing, which though a considerable improvement, is still unacceptable. Both venders have been helpful in attempting to cure the problem. So far, I attribute it a poorly designed hardware expansion architecture with respect to bus noise and reflections. ASDG has promised to send me a version of their Minirack which buffers the bus at the connector, rather than adding several inches to it internally as my current Minirack-C does. My ultimate solution will probably be to sell off all my current hardware and buy a 2000 as soon as they become available, unless I decide to jump ship and buy one of the new high end Macs due (as rumor has it) to be announced on Monday. -Fred -- =========================================================================== Fred Fish Motorola Computer Division, 3013 S 52nd St, Tempe, Az 85282 USA {seismo!noao!mcdsun,hplabs!well}!fnf (602) 438-5976 ===========================================================================
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (03/02/87)
in article <256@mcdsun.UUCP>, fnf@mcdsun.UUCP (Fred Fish) says: > Keywords: Cltd 20M hard disk troubles > > Both venders have been helpful in attempting to cure the problem. So > far, I attribute it a poorly designed hardware expansion architecture > with respect to bus noise and reflections. > > ASDG has promised to send me a version of their Minirack which buffers > the bus at the connector, rather than adding several inches to it internally > as my current Minirack-C does. My ultimate solution will probably be to > sell off all my current hardware and buy a 2000 as soon as they become > available, unless I decide to jump ship and buy one of the new high end > Macs due (as rumor has it) to be announced on Monday. > > -Fred Just a point of information: anyone who's not buffering the 86 pin edge connector is not conforming to the expansion specification. From Chapter physical.new, page 8, of the Amiga "Schematics and Expansion Specifications" 4. Loading There is 1 AMP available on the plus 5 volts. Put your buffers as close to [86 pin] connector as you possibly can. You can put one 74F load on each signal. Any board that follows these rules shouldn't have any loading problem. There are a few signals that sometimes can't be buffered, but the main one (address, data, strobes, etc.) must be. Also, there's a good amount of timing constraints that must also be followed; some Amiga specific, some based on the timing specification of an 8MHz 68000. I'll bet you that most of the boards that are having trouble are violating some of these design rules. I don't personally have access to any of these expansion devices, so I'm not stating that they categorically violate any of the given rules. But these rules were written up for a specific reason -- to be followed! If a manufacturer breaks them, all the fast PALs in the world may not help. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __ ____ ____ _____ _____ _____ Dave Haynie /// / _ | / __ \ / _ \ / _ \ / _ \ Commodore Technology /// / / | | /_/ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |\ /// / /__| | ____/ | | | | | | | | | | | | | |\\/// / ____ | / ____/ | | | | | | | | | | | | \\// / / | | | |____ | |_| | | |_| | | |_| | {ihnp4,etc.}!cbmvax!daveh \/ /_/ |_| \______| \_____/ \_____/ \_____/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jmo@ems.UUCP (03/03/87)
A friend of mine purchased a CLtd. 20mb hard disk and 1meg expansion ram in January. He attached this to his Amiga which was purchased in April, 1986. He didn't have to change any chips, and the disk and memory seem to work correctly. John
stever@videovax.UUCP (03/03/87)
In article <256@mcdsun.UUCP>, Fred Fish (fnf@mcdsun.UUCP) writes: [ Fred details some problems he has been having with a hard disk and expansion memory, and things he has done to discourage the guru . . . ] > 3. Replace the MC68000P8 with an MC68000L8 (ceramic package, > on theory that it might have better electrical > characteristics or chip might be marginal). Some additional improvement may be gained by replacing the MC68000L8 with an MC68000L10 (10 MHz) or even an MC68000L12 (12.5 MHz). This will get the addresses out a bit quicker and allow a few more nanoseconds for data to get back to the processor. > . . . > ASDG has promised to send me a version of their Minirack which buffers > the bus at the connector, rather than adding several inches to it internally > as my current Minirack-C does. My ultimate solution will probably be to > sell off all my current hardware and buy a 2000 as soon as they become > available, unless I decide to jump ship and buy one of the new high end > Macs due (as rumor has it) to be announced on Monday. Buffering right at the connector is a *good* idea! Four or five inches of additional run length means a round-trip time of over a nanosecond, and adds another component to the reflections that are bouncing around inside the box. Hope Fred doesn't decide to have a Big Mac! [ 8^( ] Steve Rice ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- {decvax | hplabs | ihnp4 | uw-beaver}!tektronix!videovax!stever
perry@sfsup.UUCP (03/03/87)
In article <2781@sdcsvax.UCSD.EDU>, hutch@sdcsvax.UUCP writes: > Strange that your C Ltd. aMEGA card should be the problem, I just got a > CMI Rom'd Kickstart and they had a mod from C Ltd. due to change in start > up sequence you get with ROMs instead of disk (faster too!!!). Due to > there well written and descriptive documentation, I tend to trust CMI. > When I talked to them, they had tried the ROMs with many add ons, and had > no problems (except with the aMEGA). When I first got the kit, the 1.2 > disk with it had some PAL legs stuffed through it (thanks UPS :-). They > sent me another one by 2day UPS as soon as I called, so they seem to care. > At $134 it looks like the cheapest 256k expansion I can get. FLAME ON! <CAUTION - FROM BIASED OBSERVER> They damn well better care since the aMega was their botched design in the first place. And...didn't CMI design the C Ltd disk controller also? You mean, the same company which doesn't have the technical competence to make a perfectly working memory board (and has to resort to claiming that there are problems with the Amiga) can't even make their other products work with each other? And one more thing (though there's many more things I could go into), $134 dollars for a couple of ROMs, a socket and some wires? And you call that a cheap expansion upgrade? Gimmie a break. To top it all off, while we're congratulating CMI for their consumer oriented pricing and their technical know how, let's also note that CBM distributed instructions on how to per- form the magical kick start elimination three different ways. Instead of spending 134 buck on CMI's ``KickStart Eliminator'' why not spend 5 cents on a xeroxed page of structions and 15 bucks worth of parts, you'll get the same thing. <no Richard, you cannot buy me a beer. I do not deign to drink with some one I respect so little> FLAME OFF - but still boiling
perry@sfsup.UUCP (03/03/87)
In article <1479@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP>, daveh@cbmvax.UUCP writes: > in article <256@mcdsun.UUCP>, fnf@mcdsun.UUCP (Fred Fish) says: > > ASDG has promised to send me a version of their Minirack which buffers > > the bus at the connector, rather than adding several inches to it internally > > as my current Minirack-C does. My ultimate solution will probably be to > Just a point of information: anyone who's not buffering the 86 pin edge > connector is not conforming to the expansion specification. > Any board that follows these rules shouldn't have any loading problem. > There are a few signals that sometimes can't be buffered, but the main > one (address, data, strobes, etc.) must be. Also, there's a good amount > of timing constraints that must also be followed; some Amiga specific, > some based on the timing specification of an 8MHz 68000. I'll bet you that > most of the boards that are having trouble are violating some of these > design rules. I don't personally have access to any of these expansion > devices, so I'm not stating that they categorically violate any of the > given rules. But these rules were written up for a specific reason -- to > be followed! If a manufacturer breaks them, all the fast PALs in the world > may not help. All ASDG memory boards have a fully functional Zorro back plane built ONTO each and every board. We are completely Zorro spec, in fact, we've designed in no wait state performance for even the worst case timings. We offered to send Fred a Mini-Rack-D to replace his Mini-Rack-C in the small hope that it might help his C Ltd problem (no more politeness bull shit - it IS a C Ltd problem) by shortening trace lengths by about half an inch (since the Mini-Rack-D buffers bus signals right at the connector while our memory boards buffer the signals at their connector - the difference is about half an inch). Traces on the aMega expansion board are unbuffered and add FEET to trace length not just inches. Dave Haynie has said above what we've been saying all along. If an expansion product is designed properly it will not require any bogus pal changes. Perry S. Kivolowitz
page@ulowell.UUCP (03/03/87)
For the record, I have an old (Aug '85 or so) Amiga, and have the CLtd 1MB ram and CLtd 20MB disk, and have had no problems with the combination after 2+ months of use. When other developers ask about hard disks, I recommend the CLtd. Can't beat the price. ..Bob PS I have no affiliation with CLtd. -- Bob Page, U of Lowell CS Dept. ulowell!page, page@ulowell.CSNET
papa@bacall.UUCP (Marco Papa) (03/06/87)
Perry writes: > All ASDG memory boards have a fully functional Zorro back plane built ONTO > each and every board. We are completely Zorro spec, in fact, we've designed > in no wait state performance for even the worst case timings. > > We offered to send Fred a Mini-Rack-D to replace his Mini-Rack-C in the small > hope that it might help his C Ltd problem (no more politeness bull shit - it > IS a C Ltd problem) by shortening trace lengths by about half an inch (since > the Mini-Rack-D buffers bus signals right at the connector while our memory > boards buffer the signals at their connector - the difference is about half > an inch). > > Traces on the aMega expansion board are unbuffered and add FEET to trace length > not just inches. > > Dave Haynie has said above what we've been saying all along. If an expansion > product is designed properly it will not require any bogus pal changes. > > Perry S. Kivolowitz Just for the record, I'd like to say that I (and all other "official" Amiga developers) received a letter from Cltd offering the aMEGA board and hard disk at the following developer's prices: aMEGA Board 1M $275 20-Megabyte Hard Drive with SCSI controller $735 I was almost ready to buy, when the Ctld problems and bad design issues were raised on the NET. Note that their flyer states that "The aMEGA contains a fully automatic installation routine, which reduces the work to two clicks of the return key and a simple one-line statement. Pretty simple, huh?" NO MENTION of the fact that, because of their #$%^*&^ design I might have to open up my AMIGA and solder CHIPS on it! On the other hand, there is NO statement in the product announcement that says that the aMEGA and HD+SCSI are "fully ZORRO compatible". Obviously, given the recent user experiences, they are NOT. Sorry, but I'll definetely pass over the offer. -- Marco Papa Felsina Software
vanam@pttesac.UUCP (03/08/87)
In article <1155@sfsup.UUCP> perry@sfsup.UUCP writes: >FLAME ON! <CAUTION - FROM BIASED OBSERVER> > >They damn well better care since the aMega was their botched design in the >first place. And...didn't CMI design the C Ltd disk controller also? > >You mean, the same company which doesn't have the technical competence to >make a perfectly working memory board (and has to resort to claiming that >there are problems with the Amiga) can't even make their other products >work with each other? As for Cltd blaming the Amiga, here's what they say in the manual pages that came with my Cltd 20Meg hard disk: Also you should be aware that SOME (10-20%) of the Amigas in existance experience problems when a second device is added to the expansion port. Commodore acknowledges this problem exists and blames it on a sub- standard part that they received from one of their suppliers. If your computer works fine with the C Ltd SCSI Controller connected all by itself, but won't work with both of them connected at the same time, you should call our Customer Service Department for instructions. We can offer several solutions to this particular problem, including replacing the sub-standard parts with parts that work, we have these parts and will make them available to our customers. End of quote. They say Commodore acknowledges a problem with the expansion port and that Commodore blames the problem on a sub-standard part. I take it C Ltd is speaking of the PAL chips. Any comments from Commodore on this? By the way, my C Ltd 20 Meg hard disk was definitely bad. It got worse and worse with more and more read/write errors and finally "NOT A DOS" and wouldn't format. At first I suspected that the read/write errors were due to a problem with the combination of my aMega RAM and SCSI controller. But since the hard disk (or SCSI controller) was definitely bad and wouldn't work right even without my external RAM, it's possible that when I get the fixed (or new) hard disk back from C Ltd ( I sent it UPS March 5th for $16) that it will work with no problems. I pray this will be the case. I've seen 2 postings of people who say they have no problems with the hard disk. C Ltd said that they'll send me a new hard drive the same day they receive my old one, or they'll fix my old one that same day. UPS told me it could take up to 6 working days for my drive to get to Kansas, so I figure 6+2+6 working days total before I should have my drive back. That means March 25th. I'm counting the days. I'll post a message when I get it back. Marnix -- Marnix (ain't unix!) A. van\ Ammers Work: (415) 545-8334 Home: (707) 644-9781 CEO: MAVANAMMERS:UNIX UUCP: {ihnp4|ptsfa}!pttesac!vanam CIS: 70027,70
blgardne@esunix.UUCP (Blaine Gardner) (03/08/87)
Ok, I'll bite! Where do you get the info on C-A's "three different ways
to do the Kickstart elimination"? And where do you get 27512 EPROMs (4
of them) for $15? Best price I've seen is $18 each.
--
Blaine Gardner @ Evans & Sutherland
UUCP Address: {ihnp4,decvax}!decwrl!esunix!blgardne
Alternate: {ihnp4,seismo}!utah-cs!utah-gr!uplherc!esunix!blgardnecarolyn@cbmvax.UUCP (03/12/87)
In article <4@esunix.UUCP> blgardne@esunix.UUCP (Blaine Gardner) writes: >Ok, I'll bite! Where do you get the info on C-A's "three different ways >to do the Kickstart elimination"? There's no way for you to get it yet. That was part of the notes given under non-disclosure agreement to the developers at the Amiga Developer's Conference in Monterey. We are, however, putting together a version of those notes which will be available directly from us when they are finished and printed. The notes will probably include the "three different ways". I can not give you an availability date or price yet. When I can, I will. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Carolyn Scheppner -- CBM >>Amiga Technical Support<< UUCP ...{allegra,caip,ihnp4,seismo}!cbmvax!carolyn PHONE 215-431-9180 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
spg@well.UUCP (03/12/87)
In article <256@mcdsun.UUCP>, daveh@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes: >Just a point of information: anyone who's not buffering the 86 pin edge >connector is not conforming to the expansion specification. From Chapter >physical.new, page 8, of the Amiga "Schematics and Expansion Specifications" > > 4. Loading > > There is 1 AMP available on the plus 5 volts. > > Put your buffers as close to [86 pin] connector as you > possibly can. > > You can put one 74F load on each signal. > >Any board that follows these rules shouldn't have any loading problem. >There are a few signals that sometimes can't be buffered, but the main >one (address, data, strobes, etc.) must be. Also, there's a good amount >of timing constraints that must also be followed; some Amiga specific, >some based on the timing specification of an 8MHz 68000. I'll bet you that >most of the boards that are having trouble are violating some of these >design rules. I don't personally have access to any of these expansion >devices, so I'm not stating that they categorically violate any of the >given rules. But these rules were written up for a specific reason -- to >be followed! If a manufacturer breaks them, all the fast PALs in the world >may not help. Way to go Dave! How come C-A hasn't come out PUBLICLY and said this? Many people are misinformed about what is or is not allowed and CLTD et al are capitalizing on this. If Cltd. said my design was bad I would certainly have set them straight. Why is C-A silent? IBM or Apple would not let this go by! As far as I know, there are not currently ANY buffered passthrus available. Everyone is cheating(if this is wrong, please tell me). I know that you are on CIS. Why did you not cry FOUL! when Cltd. posted that crap about "Bug Fixes". If C-A would support and defend the Amiga, then people might have a little more respect for it. Third party developers cannot do the whole job. If, for example, Access Associates says that Cltd. is not to spec, people perceive that it is just sour grapes. If C-A says it, it means much more. By the way, the Alegra is fully compatible with the spec(including FCC). We didn't do a passthru because to do it correctly would have added to the retail price and made FCC that much more difficult. We believed that many people needed inexpensive add-on memory and I feel that we have provided a quality product to meet this need. By the way, if anyone is interested, the Alegra 2 meg upgrade is now available from Access. Call for prices. Steve Grant Disclaimer: Although I work for Access Associates, the opinions expressed above are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Access Associates.
grr@cbmvax.UUCP (03/13/87)
In article <2758@well.UUCP> spg@well.UUCP (Stephen P. Grant) writes: > >In article <256@mcdsun.UUCP>, daveh@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes: > >> Put your buffers as close to [86 pin] connector as you >> possibly can. >> You can put one 74F load on each signal. >>some based on the timing specification of an 8MHz 68000. I'll bet you that >>most of the boards that are having trouble are violating some of these >>design rules. >> But these rules were written up for a specific reason -- to be followed! >>If a manufacturer breaks them, all the fast PALs in the world may not help. > >Way to go Dave! How come C-A hasn't come out PUBLICLY and said this? Many >people are misinformed about what is or is not allowed and CLTD et al are >capitalizing on this. If Cltd. said my design was bad I would certainly >have set them straight. Why is C-A silent? IBM or Apple would not let >this go by! As far as I know, there are not currently ANY buffered passthrus >available. Everyone is cheating(if this is wrong, please tell me). I know >that you are on CIS. Why did you not cry FOUL! when Cltd. posted that crap >about "Bug Fixes". Mostly we aren't saying anything because the whole situation is an inherited problem that we (West Chester engineering) were not aware of until recently. Making any comment before we have a chance to dig up the facts, find out what Amiga may have said, and do some investigation ourselves would not be very appropriate. It seems unfortunate that this should become an object of controversy among otherwise well intententioned hardware developers. Hopefully everyone is carefully inspecting their own houses for signs of glassiness between volleys of stone throwing. BTW, access to Compu$erve has been spotty lately do to their strange policys. Commodore is in the process of setting up an effective developers support system via BIX. This has led to increased Commodore participation in the other BIX Amiga interest groups. -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
perry@sfsup.UUCP (03/13/87)
> Way to go Dave! How come C-A hasn't come out PUBLICLY and said this? Many > people are misinformed about what is or is not allowed and CLTD et al are > capitalizing on this. If Cltd. said my design was bad I would certainly > have set them straight. Why is C-A silent? IBM or Apple would not let Way to go Steve! I've been attempting to dispell the C Ltd bogusness for some time now but fear that as you suggest, some people have regarded my efforts as sour grapes. > By the way, the Alegra is fully compatible with the spec(including FCC). > We didn't do a passthru because to do it correctly would have added to > the retail price and made FCC that much more difficult. If you recall, I was one of your early reviewers (of your product). The fact is you DID produce a full spec quality item. And, took the honorable approach to pass thru (ie: none at all). By the way, ASDG products are also full spec and FCC approved. It is amazing how few of our ``worthy competition'' have chosen to similary follow the LAW. By the By the way, what's AA's plans for future amigas? > Steve Grant Perry S. Kivolowitz, ASDG