robinson@renoir.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (03/02/87)
Are there any hardware developers out there that are giving serious
consideration to marketing an above-Amiga expansion chassis that adds the
functionality of a A2000 (2000-style card slots, PC bus, room for drives)
to an existing A1000?
There are things I prefer about my Amiga that I would not want to give up,
such as the keyboard, composite output, Kickstart on disk, etc., but I would
also like to get the expandability of the 2000, and access to all the new
cards that are undoubtably forthcoming. Also, I would like to have a few
more card slots than are being offered in the 2000.
I would love to throw money at someone who could offer such a product, and
I can't imagine that I am the only person that feels this way.
Other than some additional buffering, and new chassis, is there anything
special that would have to be done to existing A1000 expansion boxes?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you study the logistics and heuristics of the mystics,
You will find that their minds rarely move in a line"
Fifty percent of everything is below average.
Mike Robinson USENET: ucbvax!ernie!robinson
ARPA: robinson@ernie.berkeley.edugrr@cbmvax.UUCP (03/02/87)
In article <17641@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> robinson@renoir.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson) writes: >Are there any hardware developers out there that are giving serious >consideration to marketing an above-Amiga expansion chassis that adds the >functionality of a A2000 (2000-style card slots, PC bus, room for drives) >to an existing A1000? CSA has a new "turbo tower" (or something like that) that essentially duplicates the A2000 bus slots and accepts the new form factor cards. I'm not sure about the PC compatibility stuff. ASDG is working on something for the new form factor. I'm not sure they've come up with a final product configuration yet... >Other than some additional buffering, and new chassis, is there anything >special that would have to be done to existing A1000 expansion boxes? Nah, nothing you're local auto-body shop couldn't handle. 8-) -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
dngcb@dcatla.UUCP (03/12/87)
In article <17641@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> robinson@renoir.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson) writes: >Are there any hardware developers out there that are giving serious >consideration to marketing an above-Amiga expansion chassis that adds the >functionality of a A2000 (2000-style card slots, PC bus, room for drives) >to an existing A1000? > >There are things I prefer about my Amiga that I would not want to give up, >such as the keyboard, composite output, Kickstart on disk, etc., but I would >also like to get the expandability of the 2000, and access to all the new >cards that are undoubtably forthcoming. Also, I would like to have a few >more card slots than are being offered in the 2000. > >I would love to throw money at someone who could offer such a product, and >I can't imagine that I am the only person that feels this way. > >Other than some additional buffering, and new chassis, is there anything >special that would have to be done to existing A1000 expansion boxes? > You are not alone. I also prefer the A1000. One of the reasons I bought it was the fact that it is *NOT* IBM PC Compatible! I am of course glad that the A2000 is out - it should lead to greater market penetration and more software for us. My question is how much support will exist for the A1000 a year from now? I am very disturbed that Commodore changed the form factor on their "standard". Come on guys! You need product continuity if you want to keep your loyal following. I know that it puts a lot of unpleasant design restraints on you when you have to make things upwardly compatible but, but businesses (not to mention individuals) simply won't always run out to buy the latest and greatest once a year. I am very pleased with your software in that it seems to be designed with portability and compatability in mind. Oh! And thanks for the reasonable price on the 1.2 upgrade! $14 for three disks and a manual is great (much better than the $80 a competitor charged me for a similar upgrade many years ago). Now if only the manuals were loose leaf so I could put in revision pages. :-) Now, my question and concern here is exactly what is Commodore's committment to A1000 support and upgrades? Byte says that production of the A1000 will be halted, but that Commodore is committed to providing support. How about compatibility as well? I don't want to be in the condition of Apple II owners who can't run most of the software written for the Apple IIe... Nor do I want to be unable to buy any of the new hardware that will come out. I had been planning to buy an expansion box so I could add a hard disk, ram and more serial ports. Instead I've ordered a StarBoard II and am waiting (hopefully not naively) for an A2000 style expansion box which will let me use the new form factor and hopefully will also provide the CPU slot so that I can use A2000 coprocessors. Don't take the above as a flame. In general I've been quite pleased with both my Amiga and with Commodore's support here on the net. They've offered the first computer worth buying in a long long time. (We've come a long way since the KIM-1, haven't we? ;-> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Greg Byrd Atlanta, Ga. {akgua, gatech}!dcatla!dngcb ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
grr@cbmvax.UUCP (03/13/87)
In article <186@dcatla.UUCP> dngcb@dcatla.UUCP (Gregory C. Byrd) writes: >Now, my question and concern here is exactly what is Commodore's committment >to A1000 support and upgrades? Byte says that production of the A1000 will >be halted, but that Commodore is committed to providing support. How about >compatibility as well? The fact that the A500 and A2000 both run the same Kickstart image that was frozen before their design was even finalized says quite a bit in favor of internal hardware/software compatibility. This makes a good starting point for everyone, Commodore included, to maintain both upward and downward compatibility. As far as software upgrades, whatever we can cram in the new ROMS will fit just as well in A1000 kickstart tower, workbench follows automatically. Applications software will find it difficult to guess which machine it's running in, which is probably a good thing since software should be feature sensitive, not model sensitive. Hardware upgrades are a bit murky. A2000 products will be expansion board oriented, but if third parties are serious about A2000 form-factor expansion boxes for the A1000, this is less of an issue. Actual A1000 upgrades are an open item. Commodore will make what people will buy in quantity. If we do something for the A500 or A2000 that 15-30% of A1000 owners will buy, then I would expect us to seriously consider an A1000 version of some sort. Commodore has also been willing to license designs to third parties where we don't see fit to produce things ourselves. Much of the Byte-by-Byte product line is based directly on Commodore/Amiga prototype design work. A1000 production is "halted" because Commodore makes things in *BIG* batches. We made enough A1000's that they should last until A500/A2000 production get going. Whether it gets restarted depends on continuing demand for A1000's past that point. If we really made the A500/A2000 price/feature split correctly, then the "compromise" A1000 design has run it's marketing course. -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
perry@sfsup.UUCP (03/13/87)
Yes, there will be an expansion box for the Amiga 1000 which will give you both A1000 Zorro capability And a full A2000 capability. ASDG is designing one now. Instead of buying a SBII (which will not be usable with our expansion box) you should be considering buying a Zorro I memory board (and Zorro I card rack for use now). ASDG will even credit you purchase of our current two slot Zorro I racks towards the purchase of our 2000-and-1. You can't lose since you get the use of more memory now, plus the use of the same memory board plus all the A2000 goodies later and it costs you nothing extra for the A1000 Zorro I card rack (which is returned to us when you upgrade). Perry
nick@hp-sdd.HP.COM (Nick Flor) (03/16/87)
In article <1201@sfsup.UUCP> perry@sfsup.UUCP writes: > >Yes, there will be an expansion box for the Amiga 1000 which will >give you both A1000 Zorro capability And a full A2000 capability. >ASDG is designing one now. Instead of buying a SBII (which will I don't know why no one has said anything yet, but: I think Commodore should subsidize this box. This way, all of us *loyal* customers who stuck our necks out and bought the Amiga "pay another" 1000 "to upgrade to a 2000" will be happy. Of course, the Commodorians will argue about cost. HAH. Consider the benefits of a loyal customer base. Consider the extra revenues generated by the loyal Amiga 1000-upgraded-to-2000 owners who will be able to buy all the latest hardware. Don't be greedy, think about the long term consequences. Think about what a "nice-guy" image you Commodorians will have if you subsidize this box. Come on net people. Don't be wimps. Let's all chant together: SUBSIDIZE SUBSIDIZE SUBSIDIZE SUBSIDIZE SUBSIDIZE SUBSIDIZE I want to see this group flooded with Re: articles like this: ---------- > SUBSIDIZE SUBSIDIZE SUBSIDIZE SUBSIDIZE SUBSIDIZE SUBSIDIZE I agree. They should do this. It would be nice for them to front some of the cost. ---------- Of course, you can brown nose and write ---------- > SUBSIDIZE SUBSIDIZE SUBSIDIZE SUBSIDIZE SUBSIDIZE SUBSIDIZE You *sshole, Commodore has given us a great machine. You should be glad to pay an extra K to upgrade. It isn't much. ---------- Thank you for your time. (This whole article assumes that the expansion box will cost at least 1000. (Low volume reasons etc.)) Nick V. Flor The Iconoclast -- + Disclaimer: The above opinions are my own, not necessarily my employers'. / Nick V. Flor / ..hplabs!hp-sdd!nick / Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division * "What's going down in this world, you got no idea. Believe me."-The Comedian - "Less Thunder with the Mouth, More Lightning with the Fists."
perry@sfsup.UUCP (03/16/87)
In article <759@hp-sdd.HP.COM>, nick@hp-sdd.HP.COM (Nick Flor) writes: > In article <1201@sfsup.UUCP> perry@sfsup.UUCP writes: > >Yes, there will be an expansion box for the Amiga 1000 which will > >give you both A1000 Zorro capability And a full A2000 capability. > >ASDG is designing one now. Instead of buying a SBII (which will > I think Commodore should subsidize this box. This way, all of us > *loyal* customers who stuck our necks out and bought the Amiga > "pay another" 1000 "to upgrade to a 2000" will be happy. > Thank you for your time. (This whole article assumes that the > expansion box will cost at least 1000. (Low volume reasons etc.)) Actually, we don't think that our 2000-and-1 will exceed $1000.00. We are targeting $695 - $700 as a likely goal. Nick, you've got some interesting concepts there though. One thing that would really help us bring the cost to manufacture down is somehow getting in on CBM's power supply buys. Power supply's are particularly prone to big discounts in big quantities (higher than ASDG is likely to be able to swing). If we could somehow ride along with CBM's power supply (for the A2000) buys, we would definately be able to produce the box for retail around 695 (and make a profit - wow, what a concept?) Now I know such a deal would be really unorthodox, but maybe it could work? Perry S. Kivolowitz
lachac@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Gerard Lachac) (03/16/87)
In article <759@hp-sdd.HP.COM> nick@hp-sdd.UUCP (Nick Flor) writes: >In article <1201@sfsup.UUCP> perry@sfsup.UUCP writes: >> >>Yes, there will be an expansion box for the Amiga 1000 which will >>give you both A1000 Zorro capability And a full A2000 capability. >>ASDG is designing one now. Instead of buying a SBII (which will ... random thoughts then... >Thank you for your time. (This whole article assumes that the >expansion box will cost at least 1000. (Low volume reasons etc.)) Perry already has said his expansion box will cost approximately $650. Since it has/will have everything I want from the 2000 (ie card cage, CPU slot and internal drive space for hard/floppy) I will probably get this box. Unless of course someone offers me something better at a cheaper price :-) -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Isn't fun the best thing to have?" lachac@topaz.rutgers.edu
robinson@renoir.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson) (03/16/87)
In article <759@hp-sdd.HP.COM> nick@hp-sdd.UUCP (Nick Flor) writes: >I think Commodore should subsidize this box. This way, all of us >*loyal* customers who stuck our necks out and bought the Amiga >"pay another" 1000 "to upgrade to a 2000" will be happy. > >Of course, the Commodorians will argue about cost. HAH. Consider >the benefits of a loyal customer base. Consider the extra revenues >generated by the loyal Amiga 1000-upgraded-to-2000 owners who will >be able to buy all the latest hardware. Yeah, Commodore should subsidize the expansion and make their customers happy. And they should give out free lollipops with their upgrades and make at least one customer even happier! Just think about how happy they could make their customers if they included a years worth of free ice cream cones! >I don't know why no one has said anything yet, but: Because no one wanted to sound like the whining snivelers in comp.sys.atari.st. >Nick V. Flor >The Iconoclast Mr. Flor, can you say "planned obsolescence?" If you can, just be glad you didn't buy it when you bought your Amiga, and grow up. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "If you study the logistics and heuristics of the mystics, You will find that their minds rarely move in a line" Fifty percent of everything is below average. Mike Robinson USENET: ucbvax!ernie!robinson ARPA: robinson@ernie.berkeley.edu
nick@hp-sdd.UUCP (03/17/87)
In article <10164@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU> lachac@topaz.rutgers.edu (Gerard Lachac) writes: > >Perry already has said his expansion box will cost approximately $650. <stuff deleted> > >Unless of course someone offers me something better at a cheaper price :-) > Hey, none of this smiley face BS. That last sentence should have read: "Unless Commodore offers to subsidize in which case I will pay a cheaper price." Commodore is a great outfit. They can afford to subsidize. It looks like noone seems to care that they're losing the extra functionality of the Amiga 2000. Nick -- + Disclaimer: The above opinions are my own, not necessarily my employers'. / Nick V. Flor / ..hplabs!hp-sdd!nick / Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division * "What's going down in this world, you got no idea. Believe me."-The Comedian - "Less Thunder with the Mouth, More Lightning with the Fists."
grr@cbmvax.UUCP (03/17/87)
In article <1207@sfsup.UUCP> perry@sfsup.UUCP writes: > >Power supply's are particularly prone to big discounts in big quantities >(higher than ASDG is likely to be able to swing). If we could somehow ride >along with CBM's power supply (for the A2000) buys, we would definately be >able to produce the box for retail around 695 (and make a profit - wow, >what a concept?) > >Perry S. Kivolowitz Perry, the key is to find what is being made in volume and get it as directly from the source as possible. In your case, you want to use a "standard" PC/XT clone supply - find the company that is one Taiwan person fronting for his brother who is manufacturing them. -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
kim@amdahl.UUCP (03/17/87)
In article <1201@sfsup.UUCP>, perry@sfsup.UUCP writes: > > Yes, there will be an expansion box for the Amiga 1000 which will > give you both A1000 Zorro capability And a full A2000 capability. > ASDG is designing one now. Perry - Can you give us an idea of how many Amiga slots, and how many PC slots you'll provide? Also, what about the CPU (unbuffered) slot, and the Video slot? Thanks, /kim -- UUCP: kim@amdahl.amdahl.com or: {sun,decwrl,hplabs,pyramid,ihnp4,seismo,oliveb,cbosgd}!amdahl!kim DDD: 408-746-8462 USPS: Amdahl Corp. M/S 249, 1250 E. Arques Av, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 CIS: 76535,25 [ Any thoughts or opinions which may or may not have been expressed ] [ herein are my own. They are not necessarily those of my employer. ]
nick@hp-sdd.UUCP (03/17/87)
In article <17870@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> robinson@renoir.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Michael Robinson) writes: > >Yeah, Commodore should subsidize the expansion and make their customers >happy. And they should give out free lollipops with their upgrades and >make at least one customer even happier! Just think about how happy they >could make their customers if they included a years worth of free ice cream >cones! > I'll try to refrain from calling you names, but the fact of the matter is that my idea of subsidizing because it will: a) make current amiga 1000 owners happier, thus keeping a large customer base. b) enable amiga1000->2000 owners to buy the latest hardware, thus generating extra revenues for both 3rd party hardware vendors and commodore. is a reasonable / plausible one. Naturally, a thorough cost/benefit analysis must be made. But Commodore is a great company. I see no reason why they can't come up with some sort of subsidy. Your idiotic sarcastic statement just proves that ... (nah, I won't say it) What YOUR saying is that they should forget about the tens of thousands (or more) of Amiga 1000 owners. I mean, gee, if you can't afford the new 2000 -- too bad. If you can't afford to upgrade -- too bad. Customers are a necessary evil, right? Companies should just sell neat whiz-bang products and the customer should be happy with what he gets NOW. I'd hate to be in business with you. Have you taken economics? Will you look at the IBM PC and ask yourself how such a relatively inferior machine (technologically wise) can stay around for such a long time and eat up most of the PC market? >Because no one wanted to sound like the whining snivelers in comp.sys.atari.st. Oh, I guess we should all just chuck our computers when something new and better comes by. Money is nothing right? > >>Nick V. Flor >>The Iconoclast > >Mr. Flor, can you say "planned obsolescence?" If you can, just be glad you >didn't buy it when you bought your Amiga, and grow up. Grow up Mike. It's far nicer for me to post a semi-humorous article than to flame Commodore for not subsidizing this box (Which was my first choice). Immature people like you who fail to see attempts at being nice and post sarcastic nonsense without substance in reply, should get a life. Nick "No more Mr. Nice Guy" Flor -- + Disclaimer: The above opinions are my own, not necessarily my employers'. / Nick V. Flor / ..hplabs!hp-sdd!nick / Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division * "What's going down in this world, you got no idea. Believe me."-The Comedian - "Less Thunder with the Mouth, More Lightning with the Fists."
mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (No one lives forever.) Meyer) (03/17/87)
[This is a flame. You've been warned.] In article <760@hp-sdd.HP.COM> nick@hp-sdd.UUCP (Nick Flor) writes: >Commodore is a great outfit. They can afford to subsidize. >It looks like noone seems to care that they're losing the >extra functionality of the Amiga 2000. What is this gibberish? I've still got the machine I paid for, and I haven't spent any more money on it. There's no way on (or off) earth I could be said to have "lost" anything! Therefore, there's no reason for me to be upset about the A2000. Likewise, since I haven't lost anything, there's no reason for anyone to subsidize me, or to subsidize manufacturers of expansion boards. Now I have to decide whether I want A2000 or zorro (or maybe 86-pin :-) expansion slots. Maybe some sharp manufacturer will figure out a way to turn Zorro slots into A2000 slots with a cheap attachment, and I can get either in one slot. Makes me feel sorry for all those A2000 owners who won't be able to turn A2000 slots into zorro slots. Nick, wake up. There isn't any "extra functionality" in the A2000. It's got more memory inside, but no software will notice that. Anything that will run on a stock A2000 will run on an A1000 + cheap memory board (and at current prices, the A1000 will cost less). True, you can hang extra hardware on an A2000. To get that, you have to buy an expansion box for the A1000. So? You've _always_ had to buy an expansion box for the A1000 to get any significant extra hardware on it. Why does the introduction of a machine that has the slots inside make you think you've been hurt, and need to be subsidized? If this were like the long string of Mac upgrades, where software that ran on the new machines wouldn't run on the old ones without an upgrade, I'd understand you gettig upset. But that didn't obligate Apple to subsidize, and this isn't even that kind of case. BTW, why weren't you screaming for "subsidized" or "free" 1.2 enhancements? After all, software that expects you to have that won't run on 1.1 (unless someone took great pains to make it do so!). After all, at 150,000 users, that's only 2 and 1/4 million dollars it would have cost Commodore (assuming that the $15 price tag was cost, which seems likely) to give one to everyone. Of course, any subsidy has to come from _somewhere_. It ain't gonna come from the stockholders, and it ain't gonna come from labor (I can here the unions now: "You want us to take a 5% pay cut for WHAT!?!?!"). It might come for the programming staff, but I bet they wouldn't like it. Gee, it must come from selling the new machines. Guess who's gonna wind up paying that? Why, the customers, of course! That means they'll sell fewer machines, which means there won't be as large a customer base, which means that there will be less software/new hardware for the machine, which means you'll wind up with software that isn't as good, or costs more, or both. You sure _that's_ what you want to encourage? On the other hand, Perry's suggestion that Commodore could help by allowing hardware developers to add riders to power supply orders & the like seems like a good one. Wouldn't cost Commodore anything (I'm assuming a nominal charge for paperwork/etc.), and would wind up as a net lower cost for the end users. Now, what I _am_ pissed about is that the A2000 is, if anything, a noticable step _backwards_ from the A1000. They put a place for eighty-eighty-sux family processors in it, lowered the ergonomics of the machine (no place to store the keyboard? yuch), and raised the price over the A1000. Why were they wasting time adding marginal features/misfeatures, instead of working on something that's as far ahead of the A1000 as the A1000 was ahead of the rest of the world in '85? <mike -- But I'll survive, no you won't catch me, Mike Meyer I'll resist the urge that is tempting me, ucbvax!mwm I'll avert my eyes, keep you off my knee, mwm@berkeley.edu But it feels so good when you talk to me. mwm@ucbjade.BITNET
lachac@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Gerard Lachac) (03/17/87)
In article <760@hp-sdd.HP.COM> nick@hp-sdd.UUCP (Nick Flor) writes: >>Unless of course someone offers me something better at a cheaper price :-) >Hey, none of this smiley face BS. That last sentence should have read: > >"Unless Commodore offers to subsidize in which case I will pay a cheaper > price." > >Commodore is a great outfit. They can afford to subsidize. >It looks like noone seems to care that they're losing the >extra functionality of the Amiga 2000. Hold on, let me get this straight. You're telling me that a company that was on the verge of Chapter 11 less than a year ago can "afford to subsidize"?? Did they subsidized the C128? Has IBM/Apple ever subsidized? Hey, this would be great if you bought a Mac and now wanted a Mac SE... You knew what you were buying when you bought the A1000. You knew you would need a card cage. let's be reasonable about this. What about those people that bought the Amiga at release, and then CBM starting giving away the monitors?? You have to take your chances in the real world!! And you're not losing "functionality". The A2000 is 100% (that's right, 100%) software compatible. More than you can say for the Mac SE, +, GS or whatever else you might have. Most people will never need a card cage other than for extra mem, and maybe a hard drive. And for this you don't even need a card cage. (feel free anyone, to jump in!) -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Isn't fun the best thing to have?" lachac@topaz.rutgers.edu
mjp@spice.cs.cmu.edu (Michael Portuesi) (03/17/87)
I don't think that Commodore could afford to subsidize the *purchase*
price of A1000->A2000 expansion box. But I think they could afford to
subsidize the *development* of such a box, which would in turn enable
third parties to sell their product more cheaply, since they have less
R&D capital to reimburse.
I don't know the specifics of Commodore's financial situation, but
there's certainly an optimal point at which they could maximize the
benefit of such subsidies while minimizing the amount of the
subsidies. This could be very hard to calculate, given the
instability of the computer marketplace.
The other problem Commodore would have to avoid is favoritism. If
they give one third-party company their "blessings," this could upset
other third-party hardware producers to the point where they would bow
out of the Amiga marketplace. That would be very bad for all amiga
owners, not just those of us with 1000s. So Commodore would have to
make this assistance available to many third-party hardware producers.
That could also be draining financially.
So while in theory subsidies may be a nice idea, they probably
wouldn't work as well as expected, and getting them to work well would
require some planning and forecasting.
Myself, I can't afford all the cards to go into the slots in the 2000,
so I'll just keep my 1000 and be happy about it.
--M
--
Mike Portuesi / Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department
ARPA: mjp@spice.cs.cmu.edu
UUCP: {harvard | seismo | ucbvax | decwrl}!spice.cs.cmu.edu!mjp
BITNET: s314mp1u@cmccvb, rainwalker@drycas (pick one)
"Amiga hackers do it graphically, with lots of sound effects"
"Mac owners dream in black and white
Atari owners dream in color...
but Amigoids dream using Hold and Modify!"nick@hp-sdd.HP.COM (Nick Flor) (03/17/87)
In article <2822@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (No one lives forever.) Meyer) writes: >[This is a flame. You've been warned.] > >In article <760@hp-sdd.HP.COM> nick@hp-sdd.UUCP (Nick (I live forever) Flor) writes: >>Commodore is a great outfit. They can afford to subsidize. >>It looks like noone seems to care that they're losing the >>extra functionality of the Amiga 2000. > >What is this gibberish? I've still got the machine I paid for, and I >haven't spent any more money on it. There's no way on (or off) earth I First off, let me state that I'm assuming that the A2000 expansion slots are different from the zorro slots. Now, for my flame: Bail out now if you're going to be offended. >could be said to have "lost" anything! Therefore, there's no reason >for me to be upset about the A2000. > You're losing the ability to buy cheap hardware. >Likewise, since I haven't lost anything, there's no reason for anyone >to subsidize me, or to subsidize manufacturers of expansion boards. > ... Maybe some sharp manufacturer will figure out a >way to turn Zorro slots into A2000 slots with a cheap attachment, and >I can get either in one slot. Makes me feel sorry for all those A2000 >owners who won't be able to turn A2000 slots into zorro slots. > Mike, why in the world would anyone make hardware for the A1000 after the A2000 comes out. And even those that are stupid enough to do so will charge OUTRAGEOUSLY HIGH PRICES (low volume reasons etc.). Will you think before you spew. >Nick, wake up. There isn't any "extra functionality" in the A2000. >It's got more memory inside, but no software will notice that. Mike, get a life. I meant extra hardware functionality. The very idea that I meant extra software functionality is ABSURD. Notice, one of my pro's for subsidizing was that 3rd party hardware developers and commmodore will have a larger customer base to draw revenues from. >True, >you can hang extra hardware on an A2000. To get that, you have to buy >an expansion box for the A1000. So? You've _always_ had to buy an >expansion box for the A1000 to get any significant extra hardware on >it. Why does the introduction of a machine that has the slots inside >make you think you've been hurt, and need to be subsidized? > Get a life. I was waiting for the prices of expansion boxes to go DOWN. With the introduction of the A2000, producing A1000 boxes in low volume will keep the prices up. Also, think about this -- would you go into business producing boxes for a machine that has been discontinued? > >BTW, why weren't you screaming for "subsidized" or "free" 1.2 >enhancements? After all, software that expects you to have that won't > One can always get software updates from dealers (assuming commodore will let them give 'em out). Commodore doesn't have to ship updates out to everyone, just to central points. But hey, this isn't a software discussion, let's move on. >Of course, any subsidy has to come from _somewhere_. It ain't gonna >come from the stockholders, and it ain't gonna come from labor (I can >here the unions now: "You want us to take a 5% pay cut for >WHAT!?!?!"). It might come for the programming staff, but I bet they >wouldn't like it. Gee, it must come from selling the new machines. >Guess who's gonna wind up paying that? Why, the customers, of course! >That means they'll sell fewer machines, which means there won't be as >large a customer base, which means that there will be less >software/new hardware for the machine, which means you'll wind up with >software that isn't as good, or costs more, or both. You sure _that's_ >what you want to encourage? > You're looking at the short term solution. ( But what I really want to say is: People who don't take any kind of economics or business classes in college and then spew business diarrhea as if it was gospel really get my goat. ) But I wouldn't want to offend anyone. To summarize -- if the EXPECTED extra REVENUES generated from the LARGER customer base offsets the costs of subsidizing + other FC's, and furthermore, if this extra revenue creates profits greater than what is expected without subsidizing, then DO IT. For no other reason than it makes you money in the LONG RUN. No sh*t, the subsidy has to come from somewhere, but if the above holds true, then your subsidy will be paid off and you'll get a little extra. They don't necessarily have to take pay cuts to finance this subsidy. There are banks in this country. The customer doesn't necessarily have to pay more. Again, let me state that a thorough market analysis must be made. If the risk isn't worth it, then don't do it. >price over the A1000. Why were they wasting time adding marginal >features/misfeatures, instead of working on something that's as far >ahead of the A1000 as the A1000 was ahead of the rest of the world in >'85? > Because, you have to go with what makes you the most moeny. I think it's a smart move. It's a sneaky way of getting more of a market. Furthermore, if they're smart, they'll be able to slowly phase away IBM. Then we'll all be much happier. FLAME OFF Now look folks, I'm just looking for a solution that makes both sides happy. I know a lot of A1000 owners who aren't happy with the new A2000 for the reasons outlined above. Maybe this subsidizing idea was a bad idea, but noone has shown me why. Just a lot of sarcastic and not well thought out replies. I'll stop cluttering this net with my flames and use e-mail more. Nick -- + Disclaimer: The above opinions are my own, not necessarily my employers'. / Nick V. Flor / ..hplabs!hp-sdd!nick / Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division * "What's going down in this world, you got no idea. Believe me."-The Comedian - "Less Thunder with the Mouth, More Lightning with the Fists."
nick@hp-sdd.HP.COM (Nick Flor) (03/17/87)
In article <10195@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU> lachac@topaz.rutgers.edu (Gerard Lachac) writes: > >Has IBM/Apple ever subsidized? Hey, this would be great if you bought a Mac >and now wanted a Mac SE... > This is not the point. The point is that if by subsidizing, Commodore can realize a greater profit (see my response to Mike Meyer), then they should do it. This BS about so and so never doing X is total NONSENSE. What would happen if Amiga Inc. took the attitude: "Well, geez, IBM doesn't have a multi-tasking OS or a blitter, nor does apple, so the thought of doing it is absurd. We'll do what everyone else is doing I-B-M- P-C COMPATABILITY!!!" But of course they did not take the "so and so never did X" attitude and so now we have a new generation of computers. You do what makes money. Who cares if you take a loss in the short run as long as you can recover the amount plus more later on. This scheme of mine has as a residual affect of customer satisfaction. While I realize that customer satisfaction is not the *primary* goal of a business (making money is), it sure helps bring in the revenues. >And you're not losing "functionality". The A2000 is 100% (that's right, 100%) Hardware functionality. Think profits next time, not current industrial trends. I know I promised to try not to post anymore, but these e-mail flames containing nonsense about 'so and so never doing X' so why should Commodore do so, had to be cleared up. Nick BTW, this may seem to contradict what I've been saying (it doesn't if you understand my point), but remember long ago when software and software updates used to be free? Then, some clever fellow/company decided to charge for software? I suppose you are going to tell this person that "so and so isn't doing X" and he is a buffoon and that he should cut it out before we all spank him. -- + Disclaimer: The above opinions are my own, not necessarily my employers'. / Nick V. Flor / ..hplabs!hp-sdd!nick / Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division * "What's going down in this world, you got no idea. Believe me."-The Comedian - "Less Thunder with the Mouth, More Lightning with the Fists."
cjp@vax135.UUCP (Charles Poirier) (03/18/87)
In article <760@hp-sdd.HP.COM> nick@hp-sdd.UUCP (Nick Flor) writes: >Commodore is a great outfit. They can afford to subsidize. Right, the company which just fired most of the Amiga technical staff, which was almost bankrupt last year, which has given up trying to produce some potentially good peripherals, THAT Commodore can afford to subsidize. Yeah, so can the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, and Santa Claus according to Saint Nick here. Get real, Mr. Flor, this is not how businesses work. They do not subsidize us; we subsidize them! Your idea of being a "loyal customer" is to expect free handouts at every turn? Commodore is primarily a hardware company; if they give away their hardware, where does their money come from? Don't try to dance if you can't pay the piper. Getting tired of this stuff, Charles Poirier
chapman@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Brent Chapman) (03/18/87)
In article <760@hp-sdd.HP.COM> nick@hp-sdd.UUCP (Nick Flor) writes: >In article <10164@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU> lachac@topaz.rutgers.edu (Gerard Lachac) writes: >>Unless of course someone offers me something better at a cheaper price :-) >Hey, none of this smiley face BS. That last sentence should have read: > >"Unless Commodore offers to subsidize in which case I will pay a cheaper > price." > >Commodore is a great outfit. They can afford to subsidize. >It looks like noone seems to care that they're losing the >extra functionality of the Amiga 2000. By extension of your arguement, I suppose I should expect Apple to subsidize my expansion from a II+ to a Mac+? They're both "+" machines, after all... Or how about IBM subsidizing my expansion from an original version PC (64k, no disk) to an AT? You've got to realize something if you're going to stay happy in the computer game (especially when dealing with micros): In a year, anything you buy now will be half as good and cost half as much. If you admit this to yourself, then you can enjoy yourself and get some work done. Otherwise, you end up doing one of two things: You keep waiting and waiting, and never buying, because "something better" will be out "real soon now", or you go ahead and buy and kick yourself to death six months down the line. I speak from experience: The first micros I did any serious work with were the old Commodore Pets. Then I moved up to a Zenith Z-89 (soon upgraded to a Z-90, and which _still_ has more disk space than any other system I've ever owned). I bought an Apple II+ when it was a neat system. I paid about $5000 for it, all told, over several years. I could buy an equivalent Apple system today for < $1000. So far, I've sunk only a little more than half that $5000 into my Amiga, and already I have a system that is easily 20 times as useful and useable. So it goes... Quit your bitchin', and sit back and enjoy the ride... Brent -- Brent Chapman chapman@mica.berkeley.edu or ucbvax!mica!chapman
lachac@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Gerard Lachac) (03/18/87)
In article <762@hp-sdd.HP.COM> nick@hp-sdd.UUCP (Nick Flor) writes: >First off, let me state that I'm assuming that the A2000 expansion >slots are different from the zorro slots. Your right, they are different. Different size, and a slightly different pin out on the card. >>could be said to have "lost" anything! Therefore, there's no reason >>for me to be upset about the A2000. >You're losing the ability to buy cheap hardware. Only if you don;'t lay out the initial cash for the card cage. It seems your just upset you don't have a card cage, and have to pay for it. This is the REAL world, you bought a 1000 without a card cage. All you have to due is shell out the bucks for a card cage, and you get TOTAL A2000 fuctionality, if the card cage accepts A2000 cards. >Mike, why in the world would anyone make hardware for the A1000 after >the A2000 comes out. And even those that are stupid enough to do so >will charge OUTRAGEOUSLY HIGH PRICES (low volume reasons etc.). >Will you think before you spew. Gee, I think they still make hardware for the TRS Model I. There was a big market for that after the Model III came out. People with Model I's were anxious to by stuff that made their machines like the III. There are over 100k A1000's out there. Hardware manufacturer's aren't going to ignore that market!! >>Nick, wake up. There isn't any "extra functionality" in the A2000. >>It's got more memory inside, but no software will notice that. >Mike, get a life. >I meant extra hardware functionality. The very idea that I meant >extra software functionality is ABSURD. Notice, one of my pro's >for subsidizing was that 3rd party hardware developers and commmodore >will have a larger customer base to draw revenues from. But Nick, you ignored Mike's point. Software doesn't care whether the mem is on the motherboard or on the bus, as long as it's there. The extra mem on board the A2000 makes absolutely no difference. I can buy an Alegra now and get the one meg the A2000 comes with. >Get a life. I was waiting for the prices of expansion boxes to go >DOWN. With the introduction of the A2000, producing A1000 boxes >in low volume will keep the prices up. Also, think about this -- would >you go into business producing boxes for a machine that has been >discontinued? Damn straight I would!! Think of all those A1000 owners who want a card cage to make there A1000's into A2000's!! So far the A1000 has not been discontinued (to my knowledge). As I said a 100k user base is hard to ignore. If you were going to buy an expansion box anyway, why not buy the one that offers you A2000 card compatibility. So far 2 companies are making such boxes. >No sh*t, the subsidy has to come from somewhere, but if the above holds >true, then your subsidy will be paid off and you'll get a little extra. >They don't necessarily have to take pay cuts to finance this subsidy. >There are banks in this country. To whom CBM owes PLENTY of money. 'nuff said... -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Isn't fun the best thing to have?" lachac@topaz.rutgers.edu
blgardne@esunix.UUCP (Blaine Gardner) (03/18/87)
> In article <1201@sfsup.UUCP>, perry@sfsup.UUCP writes: > > Yes, there will be an expansion box for the Amiga 1000 which will > give you both A1000 Zorro capability And a full A2000 capability. > ASDG is designing one now. > > Perry - One question on a minor point. What will be the approximate dimensions of the 2000 & 1? I sure hope that it will not be as TALL as the PAL box. Seems like the IBM type power supply would make it pretty tall. Of course if the 2 Zorro I cards are mounted vertical, it will have to be a very tall box. Any chance the Zorro I cards will mount horizontally? What will be the total number of slots? -- Blaine Gardner @ Evans & Sutherland UUCP Address: {ihnp4,decvax}!decwrl!esunix!blgardne Alternate: {ihnp4,seismo}!utah-cs!utah-gr!uplherc!esunix!blgardne
billd@crash.CTS.COM (Bill D'Camp) (03/18/87)
[]
You ask why anyone would continue to make expansion products for the A1000,
why do companies continue to make products for things like the PDP-8?
Because there are still people out there using the things. With 140,000 to
150,000 machines out there, A1000 owners are hardly a small isolated group.
You were making a lot of statements about people who had never taken any
business courses spouting marketing bull, I think you should take a good
look at Commodore's balance sheet. This company was a leading candidate for
chapter 11 less than a year ago, its creditors were clamoring for their money,
and the future of the company was in real doubt. THIS is a company which
can afford to subsidize something? I suspect that the bankers which you
mention as a source of funding for this subsidy would not look favorably
at something which is liable to affect near-term cashflow, and which
does not, as you claim, provide any certainty of additional sales. If
you look at C-A's approach to expansion boxes, you will notice that none
of the products have their name on them, nor do they officially endorse
any of the available products, does this tell you anything about how
C-A feels about A1000 expansion products? I mean this company changed the
specifications of the expansion bus after some third-party vendors had
already gone to market. While I like my Amiga, and I continue to develop
software for it, I do not support you in asking C-A to do something which
does not make good business sense. C-A can ill afford capitol outlays
of that magnitude, they are not a charitable organization, they are answerable
to their stockholders just like any other publicly held company, they would
not be exercising fiscal responsibility if they succcumb to your campaign.
--
_ /|
\`o_O'
( ) Aachk! Phft!
U
(serious self-portrait?)
Opinion? I thought you said onions.
UUCP: {akqua,hplabs!hp-sdd,sdcsvax,nosc}crash!billd
ARPA: crash!billd@nosc
INET: billd@crash.CTS.COMkent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) (03/19/87)
In article <760@hp-sdd.HP.COM> nick@hp-sdd.UUCP (Nick Flor) writes: > >Commodore is a great outfit. They can afford to subsidize. >It looks like no one seems to care that they're losing the >extra functionality of the Amiga 2000. I think the something for nothing discussion has gone on long enough. I bought an Amiga 1000. This did not give me a mortgage on Commodore's future. To get that, I went out and bought some Commodore common stock. In case it has already slipped your mind, Commodore was _barely_ rescued from Title 11 by its bankers. The bankers, in turn, got a lot of control of how Commodore is run. For example, Commodore may not pay dividends on its common stock until its present indebtedness is take care of (I don't know the details of what it takes to satisfy this). Guess how happy _the bankers_ would be if Commodore said: "Guess we'll just give away 140,000 units * $500 subsidy 'cause we want to be nice guys". In case you didn't notice, Commodore was in business before the Amiga, and they will probably still be in business when it is long forgotten. In its day, the C64 dominated its market, and I think it is still the personal computer with the largest installed base. Moral: despite the song of the grasshopper, the world _doesn't_ owe you a living. Acting like you think it does says little for your grasp of basic reality. ( Think I'll run for president. With a winning personality like mine, how could I lose? Besides, we need another technocrat. Or maybe we could bring back JEC and save me the bother. ;-) <N.B., I didn't get that nickname for _agreeing_ with people!> ) -- Kent Paul Dolan, "The Contradictor", 25 years as a programmer, CS MS Student at ODU, Norfolk, Virginia, to find out how I was supposed to be doing this stuff all these years. 3D dynamic motion graphics a specialty. Work wanted. Unemployment is soooo nice though...I never have to disclaim anything! UUCP : kent@xanth.UUCP or ...seismo!decuac!edison!xanth!kent CSNET : kent@odu.csnet ARPA : kent@xanth.cs.odu.edu Voice : (804) 587-7760 USnail: P.O. Box 1559, Norfolk, Va 23501-1559 Wisdom: "Peace in mankind's lifetime. Why leave a whole universe unexplored?"
wagner@utgpu.UUCP (03/19/87)
In article <2822@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (No one lives forever.) Meyer) writes: >[This is a flame. You've been warned.] > >Now, what I _am_ pissed about is that the A2000 is, if anything, a >noticable step _backwards_ from the A1000. They [8086 bashing], >lowered the ergonomics of >the machine (no place to store the keyboard? yuch), and raised the >price over the A1000. Amen. The Amiga is the first machine I ever owned that had some aesthetics. I won't buy a machine without functionality, but it was nice to have a functional machine that didn't look like it was designed by a stamping-machine operator. The A2000 has all the aesthetics of my friend's PC Clones. Boxy looking. Looks like it belongs on a machine shop floor. Home appliances have to look nice to sell in the home. >Why were they wasting time adding marginal features/misfeatures, Actually, I like some of the new features. I just wish they hadn't tossed out so many of the old features. The place for the keyboard meant that one could tidy up one's desk. When you're talking about limited work space, that really matters. Not every Amiga is put in a dedicated workstation position. Certainly not in the home. And where does the genlock go now? But I like the keyboard and mouse connections nearer to where they are going to be used. >instead of working on something that's as far >ahead of the A1000 as the A1000 was ahead of the rest of the world in >'85? Sadly, I think that the answer to this lies in C-A's not having time to do a good job because of the time and money pressure they're in. > > <mike Michael
perry@sfsup.UUCP (03/23/87)
In article <17@esunix.UUCP>, blgardne@esunix.UUCP (Blaine Gardner) writes: > > give you both A1000 Zorro capability And a full A2000 capability. > > ASDG is designing one now. > > > very tall box. Any chance the Zorro I cards will mount horizontally? > Blaine Gardner @ Evans & Sutherland It is a given that the Zorro I slots shall be horizontal. Blaine, I've got to live with my products too :-) Perry
alex@xios.UUCP (Alex B Laney) (03/25/87)
In article <1987Mar19.093351.14810@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu> wagner@gpu.utcs.UUCP (Michael Wagner) writes: > >Amen. The Amiga is the first machine I ever owned that had some >aesthetics. I won't buy a machine without functionality, but it was >nice to have a functional machine that didn't look like it was designed >by a stamping-machine operator. The A2000 has all the aesthetics of my >friend's PC Clones. Boxy looking. Looks like it belongs on a machine shop >floor. Home appliances have to look nice to sell in the home. I agree -- The Amiga people really deserve applause for creating a computer that looks good as well as has `hacker appeal'. A pencil holder! A keyboard `garage'! A cohesive outer design! The outer plastic shell is definitely iffy (strength/shielding) - but the colour looks deeper than on metal cases. Too bad that C-A never wanted a piece of the expansion market. We could have good looking card cages as well. (Note not really Commodore I'm talking about here -- I mean C-A) Disclaimer-I haven't seem all of them. It's too bad the Amiga people didn't design an internal card cage -- but that would have been an unusual decision for a machine that was to be the ultimate game machine. And the A2000 doesn't live up! You won't see the A2000 on Miami Vice. Now I'm not a big fan of the Vice, but aesthetics count on that show, and it's neat to see Amigas there. When will Terminal and PC makers start putting keyboard connectors on the front? Keyboard cables get chewed up otherwise. And just think we have 7 doctors in Florida to thank for all this! -- {utcsri,utzoo}!dciem!nrcaer!xios!alex alex@xios.UUCP Xios Systems Corp, 150-1600 Carling Av, Ottawa, Ontario "Who sent you.. the sissies at Delmore Catering?" - TCM2