mjp@spice.cs.cmu.edu.UUCP (04/04/87)
So, I got to see a demo of the New Personal System/2 here on campus
yesterday. It was being shown by an IBM rep that looked like she had
all of 20 minutes experience with the machine. Apparently they've
repackaged the PC and AT into the Personal System/2 models 30 and 60
respectively. They've added a fair amount of stuff standard,
including video circuitry on the mother board that handles 640x480
with 256 colors simultaneous out of 262,000. The pictures it
generated in the demo were "Amiga-quality." The version 30 has an
8086 at 8 Mhz, the 60 has an 80286 at 10 Mhz. They weren't showing
the 386 machine (the Personal System model 80), but it has been
announced (two models, low end 16 Mhz, high end 20 Mhz). The
expansion bus is proprietary and is also auto-config, if I understood
the saleslady correctly (she was glowing about how the auto-config
"intelligence is distributed across the machine.")
With the educational discounts they're giving here at CMU (and I
suspect many other universities as well), a 386 PC with 1 floppy, 44
meg hard drive and color display costs $5500. A comparably equipped
Mac II (1 floppy, 40 meg SCSI) costs $4000. So IBM isn't even being
competitive with Apple. The system 30 (XT equivalent) can be had for
less than $2000.
I suspect IBM may find itself caught between a rock (Apple) and a hard
place (the clone makers). But after seeing these new machines, I
can't help but think the whizzy graphics display the new PCs contain
wouldn't be there if it wasn't for the Amiga's influence on the
market.
--M
--
Mike Portuesi / Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department
ARPA: mjp@spice.cs.cmu.edu
UUCP: {harvard | seismo | ucbvax | decwrl}!spice.cs.cmu.edu!mjp
BITNET: s314mp1u@cmccvb, rainwalker@drycas (pick one)
"Amiga hackers do it graphically, with lots of sound effects"
"Mac owners dream in black and white
Atari owners dream in color...
but Amigoids dream using Hold and Modify!"farren@hoptoad.UUCP (04/18/87)
In article <1177@spice.cs.cmu.edu> mjp@spice.cs.cmu.edu (Michael Portuesi) writes: >The expansion bus is proprietary and is also auto-config, if I understood >the saleslady correctly (she was glowing about how the auto-config >"intelligence is distributed across the machine.") My understanding is that cards can now have a lot more intelligence, and the resources will be there to support it. The expansion bus ("microchannel") is evidently set up to allow for independent communications between cards at will, without requiring data to be routed through the processor. This can be a BIG advantage in terms of I/O speed if software allows for it. >With the educational discounts they're giving here at CMU (and I >suspect many other universities as well), a 386 PC with 1 floppy, 44 >meg hard drive and color display costs $5500. A comparably equipped >Mac II (1 floppy, 40 meg SCSI) costs $4000. So IBM isn't even being >competitive with Apple. The system 30 (XT equivalent) can be had for >less than $2000. I suspect that the '386 machine will have greater computational capacity. Most benchmarks that I have seen have the '386 running slightly faster than an equivalent 68020. Also, the '386 has the MMU built in, whereas the Mac II requires an add-on card (which isn't available yet). Finally, I/O on the IBM machine will likely be a lot faster, especially disk I/O. The ESDI interface used on the IBM is considerably quicker than the SCSI the Mac uses. Still an Amigan --- -- ---------------- "... if the church put in half the time on covetousness Mike Farren that it does on lust, this would be a better world ..." hoptoad!farren Garrison Keillor, "Lake Wobegon Days"
daveh@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (04/20/87)
in article <2004@hoptoad.uucp>, farren@hoptoad.uucp (Mike Farren) says: > Keywords: PC AT XT PS/2 barf aggh ugh > > In article <1177@spice.cs.cmu.edu> mjp@spice.cs.cmu.edu (Michael Portuesi) writes: >>The expansion bus is proprietary and is also auto-config, if I understood >>the saleslady correctly (she was glowing about how the auto-config >>"intelligence is distributed across the machine.") > > My understanding is that cards can now have a lot more intelligence, and the > resources will be there to support it. The expansion bus ("microchannel") is > evidently set up to allow for independent communications between cards at will, > without requiring data to be routed through the processor. This can be a BIG > advantage in terms of I/O speed if software allows for it. The larger machines are supposed to have the "micro-channel" bus, whatever that is, along with some kind of autoconfiguration scheme. Haven't seen any of the larger machines, though, as of now. We did get the Model 30 in house. The configuration is 1 3-1/2" floppy, one 3-1/2" hard disk (the hard disk uses an IBM-specific hard disk inferface, involving some large IBM custom controller chips), and one color monitor. The system cost something over $3000. There's no "micro-channel" bus on the Model 30, its a normal PC 62 pin bus. The unusual thing about it is that the 3 slots are available on a plug-in card, and everything mounts horizontally. Its possible that this plug-in 3-slot card could be replaced with something else, like a different bus or more slots (more slots would require a larger case). The video, while still driven by the processor (in this case an 8086) is good looking. The video circuitry consists of two gate arrays, 64K of video memory (shift register DRAM), and various glue chips. The only really interesting graphic mode is the 320x200x8, which of course gives you 256 simultaneous colors out of a palette of 256K? (they're using an INMOS color lookup table, I forget the exact size of this pallette). The video logic is doing scan doubling as well as the more common pixel doubling in this lo-res mode, so there aren't any signal differences between the low and high resolution modes. The high resolution modes allow a maximum of 16 colors (all video is based on that 64K of video RAM), so they're nothing different than Amiga hi-res modes, and of course, there's no blitter or copper to speed things up. > The ESDI interface used on the IBM is considerably quicker than the SCSI > the Mac uses. Even the 10 meg/sec of a SCSI drive is fast enough for me, if only our DOS would do something more efficiently with it. Someday... > Still an Amigan --- > ---------------- > "... if the church put in half the time on covetousness > Mike Farren that it does on lust, this would be a better world ..." > hoptoad!farren Garrison Keillor, "Lake Wobegon Days" -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga Usenet: {ihnp4|caip|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh "The A2000 Guy" BIX : hazy "These are the days of miracle and wonder" -P. Simon
keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) (04/21/87)
In article <1177@spice.cs.cmu.edu> mjp@spice.cs.cmu.edu (Michael Portuesi) writes: >including video circuitry on the mother board that handles 640x480 >with 256 colors simultaneous out of 262,000. The pictures it The specs I saw said you get 256 colors in the 320x200 mode and only 16 in the 640x480 mode. >announced (two models, low end 16 Mhz, high end 20 Mhz). The >expansion bus is proprietary and is also auto-config, if I understood >the saleslady correctly (she was glowing about how the auto-config >"intelligence is distributed across the machine.") What I thought was funny was watching the IBM salesman on 'The Computer Show' demonstrate the advantages of the new 3-1/2 inch drive "See, you can put them in your pocket" and being reminded of the Apple guys doing that some 3 years ago. Keith Doyle # {ucbvax,ihnp4,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd # cadovax!keithd@ucla-locusasasa
mb@munnari.oz (Michael Bednarek) (04/22/87)
In article <1495@cadovax.UUCP> keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) writes: >What I thought was funny was watching the IBM salesman on 'The Computer >Show' demonstrate the advantages of the new 3-1/2 inch drive "See, you >can put them in your pocket" and being reminded of the Apple guys doing >that some 3 years ago. > >Keith Doyle I think IBM should be applauded for doing the right thing. ( ... more joy about one repentant sinner ... ) And, as a flow-on, 90mm disks (as IBM calls them here) should now become real cheap?
grr@cbmvax.UUCP (04/22/87)
In article <1571@munnari.oz> mb@munnari.UUCP (Michael Bednarek) writes: >In article <1495@cadovax.UUCP> keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) writes: >>What I thought was funny was watching the IBM salesman on 'The Computer >>Show' demonstrate the advantages of the new 3-1/2 inch drive "See, you >>can put them in your pocket" and being reminded of the Apple guys doing >>that some 3 years ago. >> >>Keith Doyle > >I think IBM should be applauded for doing the right thing. >( ... more joy about one repentant sinner ... ) > >And, as a flow-on, 90mm disks (as IBM calls them here) should now >become real cheap? Huh? The diskettes have already been getting pretty cheap without IBM's help. Likewise drive prices have been steadily descending, mostly due to competition between Japanese vendors. IBM is using custom mechanisms that don't use the standard power and signal cable arrangement. Avoiding standardization doesn't help lower overall prices. Likewise the PS/30 has a non-standard 3.5" hard drive. This means the average dealer or customer can't just buy a generic drive and stick it in. Now there will have to be ST506 3.5" drives, SCSI 3.5" drives and IBM 3.5" hard drives. Sometimes IBM leads and sometimes they follow. Most of the time they try real hard to watch their ass and protect their profits. I wouldn't be surprised if their 3.5" drives spin backwards 8-). -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
wtm@neoucom.UUCP (04/23/87)
In article <1495@cadovax.UUCP>, keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) writes: > > What I thought was funny was watching the IBM salesman on 'The Computer > Show' demonstrate the advantages of the new 3-1/2 inch drive "See, you > can put them in your pocket" and being reminded of the Apple guys doing > that some 3 years ago. > I was watching The Computer Show too via my satellite dish. I found the whole IBM demo rather amusing. I thought it was rather appropriate that the show started out with Victoria standing in front of a building that looked rather like the Kremlin. Well to get to the point, I got the biggest laugh out of the Microsoft Windows demo, where they mentioned that in about a year, we'll be able to stack up our windows, rather than tile-ing them next to each other.-- Like, ummm, that's a real breakthrough. Unfortunately, the Amiga has only made one solitary appearance on The Computer Show, and it was when C-A announced PeeCee compatibility using the Sidecar. It didn't look good, as somebody had dropped the Sidecar on the ground on the way to the show, and it was not operational for the demo-- well, that's live TV fer ya. My favorite silliness on TCS was Jean Louis Gasse of Apple showing off the Mac II prototype where in he crashed the machine several times, and pretended that it was a feature rather than a bug. Typical Apple marketing fer ya. My favorite recent goof was the recent premier issue of a computer magazine that featured a free diskette supposedly with $30 worth of free software. There was also an unintended bonus- the publisher accicentally bound in 5 pages of Playboy's Miss May centerfold! I heard that it was selling like crazy- never mind the free disk. Bill Mayhew The Mad Science Torture Dungeon Northeastern Ohio Universities' College of Medicine Rootstown, OH 44272 USA phone: 216-325-2511 (wtm@neoucom.UUCP ...!cbatt!neoucom!wtm)
fnf@mcdsun.UUCP (Fred Fish) (04/23/87)
In article <556@neoucom.UUCP> wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) writes: >Well to get to the point, I got the biggest laugh out of the >Microsoft Windows demo, where they mentioned that in about a year, >we'll be able to stack up our windows, rather than tile-ing them >next to each other.-- Like, ummm, that's a real breakthrough. Given sufficient screen area, I prefer the tile desktop. On my Amiga at home, I use stacking out of necessity. On my Sun-3 at work I usually have two or three 80 column wide windows open next to each other, in which I do the majority of my work. I like to be able to see everything at once without resorting to moving things around. Maybe this is partly because I find the Sun window environment more awkward than the Amiga's. It certainly isn't because of "neatness", my physical desk is a lot more stacked than tiled... :-) :-) Guess its largely a matter of taste. Anyone know of any studies on the subject? -Fred -- = Drug tests; just say *NO*! (Moto just announced new drug testing program) = = Fred Fish Motorola Computer Division, 3013 S 52nd St, Tempe, Az 85282 USA = = seismo!noao!mcdsun!fnf (602) 438-5976 =
spierce@crash.UUCP (04/23/87)
I heard that 75% of the 3 1/2" disks are made in Japan, and that prices may jump due to tariffs.
carolyn@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Carolyn Scheppner CATS) (04/28/87)
In article <1047@crash.CTS.COM> spierce@pnet01.CTS.COM (Stuart Pierce) writes: >I heard that 75% of the 3 1/2" disks are made in Japan, and that prices may >jump due to tariffs. I sure hope not. All of the reliable disks I've ever used were made in Japan. In general, the shells and hubs are more to-spec. They seem to seat solidly in every drive I've tried them on. If I have to use disks with USA shells, I use them for Write Once stuff only. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Carolyn Scheppner -- CBM >>Amiga Technical Support<< UUCP ...{allegra,caip,ihnp4,seismo}!cbmvax!carolyn PHONE 215-431-9180 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
wtm@neoucom.UUCP (04/29/87)
I thought I'd reply to Fred's response to my article about desiring to be able to stack windows in OS/2. I agree that side-by-side windows on something of the resolution of a sun screen makes tiling acceptible. Even the new ibm screens don't have really adequate resolution. I'd also like to be able to make the choice- with stackable windows; you can still tile if you want. Soooo, you're right! --Bill (wtm@neoucom.UUCP)