cb29#@andrew.cmu.edu.UUCP (04/19/87)
[This is a request for information regarding the definition of several terms related to graphics] I have been listening to much of the discusion about various graphics abilities and distinctions of the Amiga vs. the IBM PS/2 (anyone know what the PS/1 was?) and I am slighlty confused as to many of the terms that are used in the articles. I would be thankful to anyone who can answer any of the following questions are define any of the following terms. Getting a common definition down can be very helpful in avoiding conflicts that are really failures of communication. Terms: Amy vid chip video gate array blitter copper chipmem fastmem graphmem color look-up table color registers X (or X Windows) SunNews Agnus, fat agnus, paula, portia, diane, etc. SUPER_BITMAP any other useful or commonly used graphic term that could be misinterpreted Questions: What are the various ways of representing a monitor image in memory? bitplanes? each dot has it's own contigous group of bits for color (chunky memory)? chunky-planar? HAM? Can anyone give a 2 or 3 paragraph explanation of just how HAM works? How about any other "exotic" memory map scheme? What is bandwidth (I need a really exact definition of this one, it's all kind of fuzzy in my head, must not be enough bandwidth, eh?), and how does it relate to graphics display? Other related terms of interest: CLIPPER AM29000 TurboAmiga the AT&T blitter beast other blitters (how about a knowledgeable comparison?) -- Chad "Just remember, where ever you go... there you are" - Now if I could just remember where I was going...
dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (04/19/87)
>Amy vid chip The Amiga's Video chip. >video gate array ??? >blitter A device which offloads graphics tasks from the main processor. As far as I know, there are two terms: 'blitter', and 'bimmer'. A blitter is basically a DMA processor which can do copies between rectangular areas on a bitmap. This is slightly more complicated than a standard memory copy as the rectangular areas can be any width and height, and their upper left hand corner need not be the upper left hand corner of the bitmap. Blitters usually have the ability to draw 'lines'. A bimmer is a more powerful version of a blitter. The Amiga's blitter is really a medium scale bimmer, since it can perform arbitrary login operations on the bitmap data. We call it a blitter because the term stuck. In anycase, as far as the Amiga goes, it's blitter can do any arbitrary logic operation from three sources to one destination. The destination can also be included in the login operation by specifying it as one of the sources. >copper The Copper is a simple two instruction co-processor in the Amiga. The Copper can (A) Wait for the video chip to get to a particular scan line on the display, and (B) stick some immediate data into almost any IO register. The Copper is thus used to change video modes on the fly (i.e. change the color registers, sprite pointers, video modes, etc....). Again, the whole idea is to offload work from the 68000. Although the Copper steals cycles from the 68000, it runs a very small percentage of the time (less than 3%). To do all the stuff the Copper does in the 68000 would take considerably more time (10%+). >chipmem Chipmem refers to the area of memory that the custom chips can access with their DMA. Currently, the custom chips have only enough address lines to access the lower 512K of memory. Any custom chips which steal processor cycles only do so when the processor is attempting to access this area of memory. The 256K expansion you stick in the front of your Amiga gives it exactly 512K (not including the OS, which has its own 256K). >fastmem FastMem refers to any expansion memory you might add to your Amiga beyond the first 256K expansion you stick in the front of your machine. That is, any RAM beyond the 512K mark is fast memory. The term 'fastmem' comes from the fact that the 68000 can run at full speed when referencing FAST mem no matter how many cycles the custom chips are stealing from CHIP memory. Needless to say, the WCS (Writable Control Store) that the OS is loaded into is 'fastmem', although effectively ROM. >graphmem Graphics memory? Generic term meaning the memory available to some graphics device. On the Amiga, this is the lower 512K portion of memory. >color look-up table >color registers Both mean the same thing. If a given pixel on the screen is made up of, say, 4 bits (4 bit-planes), then it can assume one of 16 colors normally. (exception: HAM, see below). On the Amiga, there are 4096 colors available. You want to be able to pick 16 out of the 4096 colors to use for that screen. Thus, your color look-up table would have 16 entries in this case (each entry being able to specify any of the 4096 colors). Each entry represents a combination of bits that are 'on' for that pixel. Some times 'color look-up table' means the lookup table is in RAM rather than in hardware registers. >X (or X Windows) >SunNews These are windowing systems used on workstations. >Agnus, fat agnus, paula, portia, diane, etc. The Amiga's custom chips, with some hardware terms sprinkled in. >SUPER_BITMAP Refers to a window containing a bitmap which is much larger than the window, so you can only see a small part of the bitmap in the window at one time. >What are the various ways of representing a monitor image in memory? >bitplanes? On the Amiga, it's bitplanes. E.G. if each pixel is 5 bits, then the screen has 5 bit planes. Each bitplane is a contiguous segment of memory and can be referenced independantly of other bitplanes. Other machines might, for instance, stick all the bitplanes together in one big chunk so each BYTE represents the information required to display one bit. I for one do not like this method because it is difficult to provide for expansion beyond 8 bits per pixel without changing the way memory is organized (i.e. to go to 16 bits per pixel, you have to now make each word reference a pixel). Whereas with the bitplane approach, you simply add another bitplane. Note that the two methods do not take the same memory bandwidth to display. Whereas the bitplane approach takes a variable amount of bandwidth, the chunky approach always takes the maximal amount. Of course, if the maximal amount can be handled without slowing down the processor, this does not present a problem. >each dot has it's own contigous group of bits for color (chunky memory)? >chunky-planar? See above. It's a contiguous group of bits (as in one byte represents a pixel), or broken up via bitplanes. >HAM? >Can anyone give a 2 or 3 paragraph explanation of just how HAM works? >How about any other "exotic" memory map scheme? HAM is a 6-bitplane low-resolution video mode on the Amiga. The difference is that bits 5 and 4 (543210) now control how the remaining four bits are used. 5 4 3...0 0 0 color of pixel is that found in the color register 0-15 (as if you had 4-bitplane normal video). 0 1 use the color of the pixel to our left, but modify the BLUE using our 4 remaining bits (3210). 1 0 same as 01, but the RED color is modified 1 1 same as 01, but the GREEN color is modified. Thus, you can effectively get all 4096 colors on the screen. By making proper use of your 16 'static' colors, you can get to any of the 4096 available colors within 2 pixels... The idea behind this is that in many pictures, one has a gradual change in color. HAM mode can allow you to make this gradual change without wasting ANY color registers. For those parts of the pictures which have sudden changes, you can use a color register and 'jump' to that color... or close enough to that color that nobody would notice the difference. >What is bandwidth (I need a really exact definition of this one, it's all >kind of fuzzy in my head, must not be enough bandwidth, eh?), and how does it >relate to graphics display? There are two kinds of 'bandwidth'. One refers to the 'bandwidth of your monitor' (basically the resolution it can support). The other refers to MEMORY bandwidth... how many bytes/sec can be transfered from main memory. An Amiga 1000 has a total memory bandwidth of about 7MBytes/sec. (memory access every two cycles of a 7.14Mhz 68000 = 3.57M access/sec, @ 16 bits / access = 7MBytes/sec). (correct me if I'm wrong). >CLIPPER Fairchild's 32 bit microprocessor. It really screams. Burst and tight loop operation is better than a 68020. Normal operation is equivalent to a 16Mhz 68020. I believe the the Clipper has an MMU, FPU, and cache built in. >AM29000 A joke? >TurboAmiga Coined by ASDG, I believe. Refers to an Amiga with a 68020 in it, usually with some 32-bit wide memory running at 16Mhz. >the AT&T blitter beast No idea. >other blitters (how about a knowledgeable comparison?) the Atari ST will soon have a blitter, but rumor is that it will be a very simplistic one. TI has a really awesome bimmer, but I don't have the specs on it. I know of no computers which use it but obviously some must somewhere. -Matt
mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (04/20/87)
In article <8704192056.AA07352@cory.Berkeley.EDU> dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) writes: >>AM29000 > > A joke? Matt didn't put a smiley face on this, so I'll assume he hasn't heard of it. The AM29000 is amd's entry into the 32bit supermicro market. Apparently it's still vaporware. Amd is claiming _very_ good numbers for this chip; 12 MIPs comes to mind. I don't remember if that's burst or average rates. In either case, the chip is screaming. There's lots of stuff in comp.arch on the am29000. Wade through the older articles for it. If you're really interested, you can probably get a manual through your local AMD rep. <mike -- Here's a song about absolutely nothing. Mike Meyer It's not about me, not about anyone else, ucbvax!mwm Not about love, not about being young. mwm@berkeley.edu Not about anything else, either. mwm@ucbjade.BITNET
hah@isum.intel.com (Hans Hansen) (04/20/87)
In article <8704192056.AA07352@cory.Berkeley.EDU> dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) writes: >>Amy vid chip > > The Amiga's Video chip. Err-ah, naw. What it/they is/are and where it/they can be found. A sound chip developed by Atari. Also a sound chip in the new IBM PCs. >>video gate array > > ??? The device that the Atari ST uses to produce its video. >>copper > > To do all the stuff the Copper does in the 68000 would take >considerably more time (10%+). Anybody want to guess at maybe 100-200%. Lets consider what is done by the copper, (Agnus), and also understand that the copper is the heart of the three chip co-processor call the "Custom chips". When you consider that these three chips handle all of the serial IO thru the RS-232 port, the floppy drive IO and the blitter decodes the trackdisk, the video screens and sprites, four audio channels, plus the interrupts for the system, I think that you will have to agree that you would need at least two more 68ks to do the work and still have the same quality of overall performance that the Amiga custom chips deliver. Dont forget the lost processing time that the 68k could not do if it were handling all of these other functions. > >>chipmem > > Chipmem refers to the area of memory that the custom chips can access >with their DMA. Currently, the custom chips have only enough address lines to >access the lower 512K of memory. Any custom chips which steal processor >cycles only do so when the processor is attempting to access this area of >memory. Close but Chipmem actually refers to the first 2MegBytes of RAM in the Amiga's memory map. The existing copper, due to a lack of pins, can only address 512k of memory. >>fastmem > > FastMem refers to any expansion memory you might add to your >Amiga beyond the first 256K expansion you stick in the front of your machine. >That is, any RAM beyond the 512K mark is fast memory. Close again but.. Fast mem refers to the memory above the chip mem area of the memory map, or any RAM at or above 0x00200000. > > The term 'fastmem' comes from the fact that the 68000 can run at >full speed when referencing FAST mem no matter how many cycles the custom >chips are stealing from CHIP memory. Two problems here. First the custom chips don't "steal" memory cycles, instead they utilize the bandwidth more effecently than the 68k and are therefore told to take more of the chip memory bandwidth to get the job done. (I know it's splitting hairs but how can you steal something that you are ordered to take?). Secondly the reason the 68k can run faster when not addressing chip mem is that the chip mem area is seperated from the rest of the 68ks address map thru a DMA port that fully isolates the custom chips and their RAM from the rest of the system. Only by addressing the chip RAM area of the Amiga's memory map and then thru an arbitration process within two PALs is the 68k allowed access to the chip mem area. > >>graphmem > > Graphics memory? Generic term meaning the memory available to >some graphics device. On the Amiga, this is the lower 512K portion of memory. I believe this is a non-Amiga term to describe the assigned video RAM area of their systems. >>Agnus, fat agnus, paula, portia, diane, etc. > > The Amiga's custom chips, with some hardware terms sprinkled in. Never heard of a "fat agnus" or the "diane", and as far as I know neither are C-A chips. >>What is bandwidth (I need a really exact definition of this one, it's all >>kind of fuzzy in my head, must not be enough bandwidth, eh?), and how does it >>relate to graphics display? > > There are two kinds of 'bandwidth'. One refers to the 'bandwidth >of your monitor' (basically the resolution it can support). The other >refers to MEMORY bandwidth... how many bytes/sec can be transfered from >main memory. An Amiga 1000 has a total memory bandwidth of about 7MBytes/sec. >(memory access every two cycles of a 7.14Mhz 68000 = 3.57M access/sec, @ >16 bits / access = 7MBytes/sec). (correct me if I'm wrong). PArtially correct, the 68k's bandwidth is 7.14MByte however the bandwidth of the Amiga is really 14.28MBytes. The custom chips run at twice the data rate of the 68k! This is the main reason that the 68020 turbo, 14.28MHz processors work so well, (well maybe just a little help from the forsight of Dale Luck and C-A). >>TurboAmiga > > Coined by ASDG, I believe. Refers to an Amiga with a 68020 in it, >usually with some 32-bit wide memory running at 16Mhz. Try CSA and 14.28MHz. >>the AT&T blitter beast > > No idea. Me neither. >>other blitters (how about a knowledgeable comparison?) > > the Atari ST will soon have a blitter, but rumor is that it will > be a very simplistic one. Until I can buy one off a dealers shelf I will consider this just a big fat piece of vapor ware. If Atari ever delivers any blitters they will probably be in their workstations and not the ST line, too many machines to retro fit and the fact that not all STs will be retrofitted would cause quite a bit of selling in the Atari arena. > > -Matt For the most part Matt's answers are correct, and I would not have added to his answer except I was just tired of seeing people say that the custom chips steal memory cycles! The DMA circuit in the Amiga is very efficient and using the copper to do tasks is the most efficient use of the chip memorys bandwidth. The fact that the 68k can be blocked from memory access to the chip ram during heavy usage of the blitter, just says to me that the custom chips are doing something that would take the 68000 4 to 20 times as long to do. One related thing that is mostly over looked and that is that if the 68k really needs to take back the chip memory accesses that it has given up it can. There is one "hole" on every scan line left open for just the purpose of turning off blitter_nasty_mode. I really wish that C-A would write all of this up and use it in their ads, or at least give it to their dealers. Hans
tim@amdcad.AMD.COM (Tim Olson) (04/20/87)
In article <8704192056.AA07352@cory.Berkeley.EDU> dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) writes: >>CLIPPER > > Fairchild's 32 bit microprocessor. It really screams. Burst and >tight loop operation is better than a 68020. Normal operation is equivalent >to a 16Mhz 68020. I believe the the Clipper has an MMU, FPU, and cache >built in. > >>AM29000 > > A joke? A slight correction: AM29000 AMD's 32 bit microprocessor. It really screams. Burst and tight loop operation is better than a CRAY XMP/4. Normal operation is equivalent to 3-5 X 25MHz 68020. It has an MMU, Branch-target cache, and 192 registers built in. CLIPPER A joke. ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) Really, I didn't mean to bring up the discussion of the Am29000 here, since it is not the right news group for it. Any further discussion or questions should be emailed to me (or check out comp.arch). Let's get on with the discussion of *current* Amigas! -- Tim Olson Advanced Micro Devices Strategic Planning (...ihnp4!amdcad!tim)
dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (04/20/87)
-> From: Matthew Dillon -> -> To do all the stuff the Copper does in the 68000 would take ->considerably more time (10%+). -From: hah@isum.intel.com (Hans Hansen) - -Anybody want to guess at maybe 100-200%. Lets consider what is done by -the copper, (Agnus), and also understand that the copper is the heart of I was talking about the Copper instructions. -the three chip co-processor call the "Custom chips". When you consider that -these three chips handle all of the serial IO thru the RS-232 port, the Serial I/O is not DMA. -> ->>chipmem -> -> Chipmem refers to the area of memory that the custom chips can access ->with their DMA. Currently, the custom chips have only enough address lines to ->access the lower 512K of memory. Any custom chips which steal processor ->cycles only do so when the processor is attempting to access this area of ->memory. - -Close but Chipmem actually refers to the first 2MegBytes of RAM in the -Amiga's memory map. The existing copper, due to a lack of pins, can only -address 512k of memory. Can you read? I said 'Currently'. ->>fastmem -> -> FastMem refers to any expansion memory you might add to your ->Amiga beyond the first 256K expansion you stick in the front of your machine. ->That is, any RAM beyond the 512K mark is fast memory. - -Close again but.. Fast mem refers to the memory above the chip mem area -of the memory map, or any RAM at or above 0x00200000. Obviously the person who asked the questions in the first place is not a vetren in programming the Amiga. There was no need to go into such detail. -> -> The term 'fastmem' comes from the fact that the 68000 can run at ->full speed when referencing FAST mem no matter how many cycles the custom ->chips are stealing from CHIP memory. - -Two problems here. First the custom chips don't "steal" memory cycles, -instead they utilize the bandwidth more effecently than the 68k and are -therefore told to take more of the chip memory bandwidth to get the -job done. (I know it's splitting hairs but how can you steal something -that you are ordered to take?). Secondly the reason the 68k can run -faster when not addressing chip mem is that the chip mem area is seperated -from the rest of the 68ks address map thru a DMA port that fully isolates -the custom chips and their RAM from the rest of the system. Only by -addressing the chip RAM area of the Amiga's memory map and then thru -an arbitration process within two PALs is the 68k allowed access to the -chip mem area. Look guy, just because I don't go into detail doesn't mean my answer is incomplete. 0 problems. -> ->>graphmem -> -> Graphics memory? Generic term meaning the memory available to ->some graphics device. On the Amiga, this is the lower 512K portion of memory. - -I believe this is a non-Amiga term to describe the assigned video RAM -area of their systems. I SAID THAT. -PArtially correct, the 68k's bandwidth is 7.14MByte however the bandwidth -of the Amiga is really 14.28MBytes. The custom chips run at twice the -data rate of the 68k! This is the main reason that the 68020 turbo, 14.28MHz -processors work so well, (well maybe just a little help from the forsight -of Dale Luck and C-A). A 7.14Mhz 68000 has a memory bandwidth of 3.57MBytes/sec. (Every 16bit fetch takes 4 clocks). I was under the impression that CHIP memory had a bandwidth double the 68000's, which would be 7.14MBytes/sec. Am I wrong? can anybody at C-A help? - For the most part Matt's answers are correct, and I would not -have added to his answer except I was just tired of seeing people say -that the custom chips steal memory cycles! The DMA circuit in the -Amiga is very efficient and using the copper to do tasks is the most -efficient use of the chip memorys bandwidth. The fact that the 68k - For the most part, Hans answers to my answers to the original question were uncalled for. Although he did correct some mistakes I made (the clock rate for the 68020 board, the AM29000), most of his qualms made no sense at all, and simply reiterated what I said. Rightly, his message should have been in response to the original question, not my answer to the original question. -Matt
grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (04/21/87)
Somewhat against my better judgement I'm going to answer these, although I know others have already attempted the feat... In article <MS.V3.18.cb29.8002110e.butler.ibm032.1588.0@andrew.cmu.edu> cb29#@andrew.cmu.edu (Chad Kavanaugh Bisk) writes: > >I have been listening to much of the discusion about various graphics >abilities and distinctions of the Amiga vs. the IBM PS/2 (anyone know what >the PS/1 was?) There was nothing called a PS/1 - I guess PS/2 is just saying this is the second generation - PC/XT/AT being the first. >Amy vid chip Confusion - Amy is a diminutive used in some circles to refer to an Amiga. The Amiga functions are actually distributed over 3 custom chips, but it appears as only entitity from the programming model point of view. >video gate array This (VGA) refers to a "all-in-one" custom chip used in the PS/2 machines to handle video output. >blitter >copper These are subfunction "processors" in the Amiga custom chips. The blitter (aka bimmer) performs bit-oriented logical operations on bit planes. "blit" is an formalism/algorithm for performing such operations. The copper is another "processor" that runs in synchronism with the beam position on the CRT screen. While it's organization is simple, it allows tricky screen manipulations without visual artifacts and with minimal 68000 overhead. >chipmem >fastmem Loosely (!!!) chip memory is that memory that the custom chips are able to access directly. Expansion memory is accessable by the processor and external DMA, but not the custom chips. Although the chip memory is normally shared by the 68000 and the display without interference, some video modes and all blitter/copper actions may co-opt processor cycles. Fast memory is memory that is not affected by the custom chip cycle "sharing". That is a program running in fast memory can run full speed even though you may be beating the chip memory to death. Internal expansion (> 512K) on new machines is somewhere in between in that it works like chip memory, but isn't accessable by the current custom chips. External memory is still "fast". >color look-up table >color registers Means of translating a limited number of bits per pixel to one of a many color shades. >X (or X Windows) >SunNews X or the X Window System is a windowing system created out of Project Athena at MIT. NeWS (New Window System) is a windowing system created by Sun Microsystems. They are contending for the "standard" window system on workstations. Both require Berkeley style unix. >Agnus, fat agnus, paula, portia, diane[sic], etc. These are the Amiga custom chips. Agnus - Address Generator - Contains all the pointer registers, update logic and DMA control. Also the blitter, copper, sprite engines, etc, and sync generation. Fat Agnus - is a modified Agnus chip used in the A500. It integrates various logic from the A1000 board into the Agnus package, but does not add any new capabilities. Paula (orginally Portia) handles most of the random I/O functions includingserial port, floppy and sound. Denise (orginally Daphne) handles the video shifting, color lookup table, sprite/bitplane priority andmouse motion. Two 8520 "Versatile I/O" chips handle the mundane I/O operations including the keyboard, parallel port, floppy control and RS232 control. >SUPER_BITMAP A bitmap bigger than can actually be displayed on the screen. >What is bandwidth (I need a really exact definition of this one, it's all >kind of fuzzy in my head, must not be enough bandwidth, eh?), and how does it >relate to graphics display? Bandwidth is basically the number of bits per unit time that you can get through a device. In the case of video, it is the number of bits/second you need to handle screen refresh. In the case of high resolution/lots of bits/pixel displays this becomes a critical design factor. The Amiga performs 1 16-bit memory cycle every ~280 nanoseconds. This yields a total bandwidth of 7.16 Megabytes/Second. Normally half of these cycles are used by video refresh and half by the processor, however it is possible to select video modes that use more than 3.58 Megabytes/Second, in which case cycles normally allocated to the processor will be used. This is a basic design limitation of the Amiga chipset and can only be avoided by implementing faster memory cycles, specialized memory chips, 32-bit wide video memory, external display hardware or some combination of the above. The Atari ST suffers from the same limitations, but doesn't have any display modes fancy enough to exceed half the available bandwidth. >Other related terms of interest: >CLIPPER >AM29000 The Clipper (Fairchild), AM29000 (AMD) and MIPS chip (MIPS) are ground up "super-micro" processor chips intended for the workstation market. None of them have had much effect on the microcomputer market yet. They encompass various speed/cost of implementation tradeoffs. The 68020/68030 and 386 chips are high-end versions of existing micro-processor families that are also targetted at the workstation market. Since they have some compatibility with the chips currently being used in micro, they are more likely to show up in the next generation of systems. >TurboAmiga CSA's 68020 Expansion box for the A1000. >the AT&T blitter beast AT&T has some interesting videodisplay boards/systems. Not clear what effect these will have on the general purpose micro market. >other blitters (how about a knowledgeable comparison?) Atari has some kind of blit chip in the works, but seems to have trouble getting chips into systems and on the shelf. TI has a very powerful video processor chip that will show up on a number of PC/AT compatible video cards. It might show up on some A2000 expansion cards eventually... There are a number of other blit chips or video/processor chips incorporating "blit" functions. There is nothing really magical about the Amiga blitter. It just was the first to provide blit functions at a reasonable cost and integrate the blit functions with all the other system functions. -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
mwm@eris.UUCP (04/21/87)
In article <1699@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >Somewhat against my better judgement I'm going to answer these, although >I know others have already attempted the feat... You did a good job, George. Thanx for the data. You just slipped once (that I know of): >>X (or X Windows) >>SunNews > > X or the X Window System is a windowing system created out of Project > Athena at MIT. NeWS (New Window System) is a windowing system created > by Sun Microsystems. They are contending for the "standard" window > system on workstations. Both require Berkeley style unix. Minor nit: NeWS is "Networkd Extensible Window System" (or at least that's what the slides at the Gosling talk said). Before the advertising people got a hold of it, it was "SunDew". Not sure what that meant; possibly "distributed extensible windows" or some such. Of course, the adverdroids could have changed it again. Major nit: Neither requires Berkeley style unix. Both require some kind of IPC, usually TPC/IP. X has been made to run on OS/9 (and thrown out; it's HUGE). NeWS has been made to run on the Atari ST, running TCP/SLIP to a sun for IPC. <mike -- Here's a song about absolutely nothing. Mike Meyer It's not about me, not about anyone else, ucbvax!mwm Not about love, not about being young. mwm@berkeley.edu Not about anything else, either. mwm@ucbjade.BITNET
andy@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Andy Finkel) (04/21/87)
In article <8704201929.AA26502@cory.Berkeley.EDU> dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) writes: >-> From: Matthew Dillon > A 7.14Mhz 68000 has a memory bandwidth of 3.57MBytes/sec. (Every >16bit fetch takes 4 clocks). I was under the impression that CHIP memory had >a bandwidth double the 68000's, which would be 7.14MBytes/sec. Am I wrong? >can anybody at C-A help? You're right. > > -Matt -- andy finkel {ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy Commodore/Amiga /or/ pyramid!amiga!andy } "Do not meddle with the affairs of wizards, for it makes them soggy and hard to light." Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share. I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
lrj@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Lewis R. Jansen) (04/22/87)
In article <1699@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >In article <MS.V3.18.cb29.8002110e.butler.ibm032.1588.0@andrew.cmu.edu> cb29#@andrew.cmu.edu (Chad Kavanaugh Bisk) writes: >>X (or X Windows) >>SunNews > > X or the X Window System is a windowing system created out of Project > Athena at MIT. NeWS (New Window System) is a windowing system created > by Sun Microsystems. They are contending for the "standard" window > system on workstations. Both require Berkeley style unix. This is picking nits, but the guy DID ask for definitions... NeWS is an acronym for Network Extensible Window System, and does not have the name Sun prepended to it. It was originally called SunDew (or something like that), but the name was changed to remove any reference to Sun, as they'd love to do with NeWS what they've done with NFS (Network File System). :^) -- -- Lewis R. Jansen, LASSP Systems Grunt lrj@lasspvax.tn.cornell.edu ...!cornell!lasspvax!lrj The above opinions are for sale or rent. Inquire within.
papa@bacall.UUCP (04/22/87)
George Robbins writes: > Somewhat against my better judgement I'm going to answer these, although > I know others have already attempted the feat... > > In article <MS.V3.18.cb29.8002110e.butler.ibm032.1588.0@andrew.cmu.edu> cb29#@andrew.cmu.edu (Chad Kavanaugh Bisk) writes: > >X or X Windows > > > >SunNews > > X or the X Window System is a windowing system created out of Project > Athena at MIT. NeWS (New Window System) is a windowing system created > by Sun Microsystems. They are contending for the "standard" window > system on workstations. Both require Berkeley style unix. > While it is true that X REQUIRES Berkeley style UNIX, this is not true at all for Sun's NeWS. A NeWS server "can run as an application on a single process personal computer or bitmapped terminal, communicating with clients on some multi-process system via a phone line or network". NeWs has been written with portability in mind. Sun has shown a version of NeWS running on the Atari ST over 1200 baud phone lines. And note that the Atari does not even support multiprocessing. NeWS implements its own lightweight type of processes. Porting NeWS to the Amiga should be fairly easy, though a source licence will cost $25,000 to a private company, and $1000 to a University. The quoted paragraph is from Sun's "NeWS Preliminary Technical Overview". > > >other blitters (how about a knowledgeable comparison?) > > Atari has some kind of blit chip in the works, but seems to have > trouble getting chips into systems and on the shelf. > > TI has a very powerful video processor chip that will show up on > a number of PC/AT compatible video cards. It might show up on some > A2000 expansion cards eventually... > The TI chip is the TMS34010. It is a complete processor and some products are already available that use it: the Number Nine Clipper graphics board for the IBM PC (which also includes the Intel chip, see later) and the new board from Tektronix (also for the PC) that runs Grafpoint Tgraf-05 and Tgraf-07 (tek 4105 and 4107 graphics emulators). > There are a number of other blit chips or video/processor chips > incorporating "blit" functions. There is nothing really magical > about the Amiga blitter. It just was the first to provide blit > functions at a reasonable cost and integrate the blit functions > with all the other system functions. Among other, Intel has the 82786 graphics processor that includes a bit blitter, and National has the AGCS (Advanced Graphics Chip Set) which also includes a blitter. To give you an idea of the prices, the less sophisticated Intel 82876 costs about $150, the TI 34010 costs about $500, and the National chips set is not completely available yet. -- Marco -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Marco Papa 3175 S. Hoover St., Ste. 275 (213)747-8498 Los Angeles, CA 90007 USC: (213)743-3752 F E L S I N A Now working for ::::::: BIX: papa But in no way :: :: Officially representing ::::::: ...!usc-oberon!bacall!papa S O F T W A R E papa@usc-cse.usc.edu -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
grr@cbmvax.UUCP (04/22/87)
In article <3246@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: >In article <1699@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >>Somewhat against my better judgement I'm going to answer these, although >>I know others have already attempted the feat... > >You did a good job, George. Thanx for the data. You just slipped once >(that I know of): > >>>X (or X Windows) >>>SunNews >> >> X or the X Window System is a windowing system created out of Project >> Athena at MIT. NeWS (New Window System) is a windowing system created >> by Sun Microsystems. They are contending for the "standard" window >> system on workstations. Both require Berkeley style unix. > >Minor nit: NeWS is "Networkd Extensible Window System" (or at least >that's what the slides at the Gosling talk said). Before the >advertising people got a hold of it, it was "SunDew". Not sure what >that meant; possibly "distributed extensible windows" or some such. Of >course, the adverdroids could have changed it again. I had a twitchy feeling about that, but didn't have the energy to do a real truth quest. Hard to tell what acronyms really stand for, but I'm sure the Network Extensible Window System is the offical verision. >Major nit: Neither requires Berkeley style unix. Both require some >kind of IPC, usually TPC/IP. X has been made to run on OS/9 (and >thrown out; it's HUGE). NeWS has been made to run on the Atari ST, >running TCP/SLIP to a sun for IPC. I should have said something along the lines that X windows was originally written for Berkeley unix and all known commerical implementations are Berekley based or rely on Berkeley compatibility features. Anyway, all is subject to change... Any info on who did the NeWS port for the ST? I shouldn't be too hard to port from the ST to the Amiga. It might be pretty intersting when the Ameristar ethernet boards and software become readily available. Oh well, back to my *hardware* responsibilities... -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
mike@ames.UUCP (Mike Smithwick) (04/23/87)
In article <1710@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: > > Any info on who did the NeWS port for the ST? I shouldn't be too > hard to port from the ST to the Amiga. It might be pretty intersting > when the Ameristar ethernet boards and software become readily > available. > >Oh well, back to my *hardware* responsibilities... >-- >George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr The ST port of NeWs was done by Sun engineers to prove how easy it was to port over to different machines. It was never meant to be a product of any sort, although it has drawn alot of interest. Many companies have bought source licenses (such as Microsoft, and Apollo) to adapt it to their machines, so I wouldn't be surprised to see someone bring it up on an Amiga. Last week Sun announced their plans to merge X.11 with SunNeWS. They have an X.10 demo running, but '10 apparently has BIG problems, so they're waiting for '11. Anyway, for the unintiated, SunNeWS is supposed to be a "machine independent" windowing system, based on PostScript(tm). There is a Postscsript server resident on the workstation accepting PS binaries across the net for display. Using this the user can custom design the look of the entire scsreen, from width of the window borders, to location of the winbdow dittle. I was shown one window modeled after the Macintosh, and another which looked like the more traditional (read boring) Sun window. The real utility of SunNeWS comes in the ability of a remote task to drive a window display.That is, if I am running an Amiga from my home talking to a Sun at work, any windowed tasks can be based on the Sun, while generating objects, windows and menus at home. -- *** mike (powered by M&Ms) smithwick *** "ever felt like life was a game, and someone gave you the wrong instruction book?"
jdg@elmgate.UUCP (Jeff Gortatowsky) (04/23/87)
Read the original Byte article. It did a fair job of explaining the
DMA slot allocations.
Ever notice how sick the drives sound when the head stepping is slowed
down by something?
Oh yes, Video Gate Array, better known as VGA. A new video chip in
the new (big deal) IBM's. The Atari ST's chip is called 'Shifter'.
If I'm wrong, may my Sun cra
Parity Error! Bus Error Reg 4e91<VALID,LPARERR>
Parity Error: Address 0x1efbc, Data 0xb0bd, Bus Error Reg 4e91<VALID,LPARERR>
panic:
syncing disks: 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
dumping to dev 701 offset 24358
8^)
--
Jeff Gortatowsky {seismo,allegra}!rochester!kodak!elmgate!jdg
Eastman Kodak Company
These comments are mine alone and not Eastman Kodak's. How's that for a
simple and complete disclaimer? mwm@eris.UUCP (04/23/87)
In article <1710@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: > Any info on who did the NeWS port for the ST? I shouldn't be too > hard to port from the ST to the Amiga. It might be pretty intersting > when the Ameristar ethernet boards and software become readily > available. As someone else pointed out, that port was done to prove that it could be done. According to Gosling, the hard part of that port was the TCP/SLIP implementation for the ST. Maybe the nice people at Ameristar would consider adding a SNeWS port to there line of networking products after they have the TCP/SLIP code running? <mike -- Take a magic carpet to the olden days Mike Meyer To a mythical land where everybody lays ucbvax!mwm Around in the clouds in a happy daze mwm@berkeley.edu In Kizmiaz ... Kizmiaz mwm@ucbjade.BITNET
grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (04/25/87)
In article <2393@bacall.UUCP> papa@bacall.UUCP (Marco Papa) writes: > >While it is true that X REQUIRES Berkeley style UNIX, this is not true at >all for Sun's NeWS. A NeWS server "can run as an application on a single >process personal computer or bitmapped terminal, communicating with clients >on some multi-process system via a phone line or network". NeWs has been >written with portability in mind. Sun has shown a version of NeWS running >on the Atari ST over 1200 baud phone lines. And note that the Atari does not >even support multiprocessing. NeWS implements its own lightweight type >of processes. Porting NeWS to the Amiga should be fairly easy, though a >source licence will cost $25,000 to a private company, and $1000 to a >University. The quoted paragraph is from Sun's "NeWS Preliminary >Technical Overview". Ok, I'm feeling a little better now. NeWS has a split personality. An interpreter/rendering agent that runs on any "intelligent" graphics terminal and some host software that tells it what to do. Now, agreed that the terminal software can be ported to almost machine or OS, what are the characteristics of the Host software? Has anyone ported it to a non-Sun, non-Berkeley machine yet? Does the source license include both halves? What does it look like from the programmers point of view? The oprating systems POV (I wanna shell here!)? Am I confused? -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
jmsynge@sqm.dec.com (James M Synge, DTN 381-1545) (04/29/87)
In article <2393@bacall.UUCP> papa@bacall.UUCP (Marco Papa) writes: >While it is true that X REQUIRES Berkeley style UNIX... WRONG! The X Window System is designed with a client-server model, where the communication takes place with TCP in the initial implementation. The client and server can be running totally different OSs. Thus your client on a 4.3 machine could be displaying on an Amiga which had an implementation of the server side and an ethernet board. I've talked with some guys at MIT who are attempting to do just that. James Synge USENET: {decvax, ucbvax, allegra}!decwrl!sqm.dec.com!jmsynge ARPAnet: jmsynge%sqm.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM #include <disclaimer.h> "Ken Olsen can speak for Digital, not me!"
pklier@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Peter Klier) (04/29/87)
[]
In a previous article, someone from DEC mentioned that there is a
project at MIT to implement an X window server for the Amiga. If
there is anyone involved with that project on the net, would you
please let us know how it's coming along, when you expect it to be in
beta, etc.?
Please mail responses, unless you can all agree on one person to post a summary
of your work. I'll post a summary if I receive anything juicy.
--Lang Zerner
ARPA: langz@athena.MIT.EDU
Usenet: ...{mirror|seismo|ihnp4|blblbl}!mit-eddie!langz@athena
USnail: P.O. Box 247, MIT Branch, Cambridge, MA 02139
Phone: 617 / 628-7156
"Nothing is ever accomplished by a reasonable man."
-- George Bernard Shawglee@cognos.uucp (Godfrey Lee) (04/29/87)
I understand that TCP/SLIP is the serial line equivalent for TCP/IP, but does anyone know whether it is available in source form? If so, for what machine, and how does one obtain it? Thanks in advance. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Godfrey Lee, Cognos Incorporated, 3755 Riverside Drive, Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA K1G 3N3 (613) 738-1440 decvax!utzoo!dciem!nrcaer!cognos!glee
gary@mit-eddie.UUCP (04/30/87)
In article <9561@decwrl.DEC.COM> jmsynge@sqm.dec.com (James M Synge, DTN 381-1545) writes: -In article <2393@bacall.UUCP> papa@bacall.UUCP (Marco Papa) writes: - ->While it is true that X REQUIRES Berkeley style UNIX... - -WRONG! The X Window System is designed with a client-server model, where -the communication takes place with TCP in the initial implementation. The -client and server can be running totally different OSs. Thus your client -on a 4.3 machine could be displaying on an Amiga which had an implementation -of the server side and an ethernet board. I've talked with some guys at MIT -who are attempting to do just that. - -James Synge - In fact, it doesn't require Unix at all. You can currently use VMS as a server and even an AT as a client. And X doesn't require Ethernet, although it probably wouldn't be much fun using a 1200 baud serial line. ;-) Gary