philip@dalcsug.UUCP (04/16/87)
In article <1673@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >Anybody who has some neat ideas should suggest them now, but please be sure >to consider all the system implications, including memory bandwidth, hardware >compatibility, software compatibility and incremental cost. At least that's >what we have to do at this end... What new boards are being planned for the 2000's video slot? Is it possible to plug in a ultra-hi-res-lotsa-colours board into this slot and could it be done on a 1000? It would be real nice if the system could have information on the current maximums of screen height,width and depth so that the program could check what those values were and varry its output accordingly. That way a cad program written today that uses 640x400x16 could use 1024x1024x256 when(if) that becomes available without having to do a revision. If you want a wish list ... 6 planes in 640x400 (HAM) and 5 in normal mode (640x400x32). And whatever you do - leave in an option for interlace, desktop video is not a market that commodore can ignore! Peter Philip Dalhousie University Halifax, Nova Scotia
grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (04/25/87)
In article <63@dalcsug.UUCP> philip@dalcsug.UUCP (Peter Philip) writes: > >What new boards are being planned for the 2000's video slot? Is it possible >to plug in a ultra-hi-res-lotsa-colours board into this slot and could it >be done on a 1000? The video slot is primarily intended to allow implementation of an internal Genlock peripheral. It can also used to mount a composite video/RF modulator board. The slot provides the same kind of signals present on the video connector and the audio connectors. It would possible to come up with a more advanced audio/visual board, however if a lot of control/data transfer is needed you would need to cross connect to a board on the normal expansion bus. > It would be real nice if the system could have information >on the current maximums of screen height,width and depth so that the program >could check what those values were and varry its output accordingly. >That way a cad program written today that uses 640x400x16 could use >1024x1024x256 when(if) that becomes available without having to do a revision. This general capability is already present and is used to switch between NTSC and PAL display formats in a software sense. It would need to be expanded a bit for radical display formats. -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
kim@amdahl.UUCP (Kim DeVaughn) (04/26/87)
In article <1735@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP>, grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: > The video slot is primarily intended to allow implementation of an internal > Genlock peripheral. It can also used to mount a composite video/RF modulator > board. > > The slot provides the same kind of signals present on the video connector ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > and the audio connectors. It would possible to come up with a more advanced > audio/visual board, however if a lot of control/data transfer is needed you > would need to cross connect to a board on the normal expansion bus. I've see it mentioned in several places that the "Westchester design" of the A2000 will have additional signals available at the video slot, while the "German design" will not. In particular, the "Westchester design" is supposed to make available the 12 raw RGB bits, which would then permit add on boards to do things like "Chroma Keying", in addition to "Genlocking". Is this correct, George? How can one tell if one is getting one design or the other? Are there yet other signals that the "Westchester design" provides in addition to the raw RGB signals? On a related topic ... when and where can one get the technical specs, etc. on the A2000? /kim -- UUCP: kim@amdahl.amdahl.com or: {sun,decwrl,hplabs,pyramid,ihnp4,seismo,oliveb,cbosgd}!amdahl!kim DDD: 408-746-8462 USPS: Amdahl Corp. M/S 249, 1250 E. Arques Av, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 CIS: 76535,25 [ Any thoughts or opinions which may or may not have been expressed ] [ herein are my own. They are not necessarily those of my employer. ]
grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (04/27/87)
In article <6370@amdahl.UUCP> kim@amdahl.UUCP (Kim DeVaughn) writes: >I've see it mentioned in several places that the "Westchester design" of the >A2000 will have additional signals available at the video slot, while the >"German design" will not. The German design has all the basic features, while the West Chester design is intended to lower production costs. We did take the liberty of adding a few simple enhancemnts. >Is this correct, George? How can one tell if one is getting one design or the >other? Current plans are that production machines in the US will all be of the West Chester variety. >In particular, the "Westchester design" is supposed to make available the 12 >raw RGB bits, which would then permit add on boards to do things like "Chroma >Keying", in addition to "Genlocking". Actually, the requests I've heard for chroma-keying work the other way, with video being switched based of the color of the external video input. This would let you point your camera at a model against a blue backdrop and have just the model appear superimposed over an amiga generated graphics background. This is really an analog video function. The other effect would be simple to accomplish by making bit 15 of the color registers control the pixel-switch bit, instead of keying on "color 0". This is something we're thinking about... > Are there yet other signals that the "Westchester design" provides in >addition to the raw RGB signals? Most of the internally available video and audio signals, assorted clocks and the parallel port signals are present on an additional connector. One other little goodie we snuck into both the A500 and WC A2000 is a control bit to disable the compromise anti-aliasing filter in the audio- output. Assuming you use a high-sampling rate and/or an external anti- alias filter, you can get some really impressive audio out of the box. >On a related topic ... when and where can one get the technical specs, etc. on >the A2000? At this point the only way is to get yourself signed up as a developer. There's really not much new stuff because of the degree of compatibility with the A1000 and the "zorro" bus described in the existing expansion documentation. -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
rossi@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Lisa Rossi CATS) (04/27/87)
In article <6370@amdahl.UUCP> kim@amdahl.UUCP (Kim DeVaughn) writes: > >On a related topic ... when and where can one get the technical specs, etc. on >the A2000? > We are currently working on the technical specs for the A2000. As soon as they become available I will let the net know. -- ************************************************************************* Lisa Rossi-Siracusa Commodore Business Machines uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!rossi arpa: cbmvax!rossi@seismo.css.GOV or rossi@cbmvax.UUCP@{seismo|harvard} tel : (215) 431-9180 -- a mime is a terrible thing to waste -- *************************************************************************
miner@ulowell.cs.ulowell.edu (Rich A Miner ) (04/27/87)
References: In article <1759@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> (George Robbins) writes: >In article <6370@amdahl.UUCP> kim@amdahl.UUCP (Kim DeVaughn) writes: >..West Chester design...We did take the liberty adding a few simple > enhancemnts. Do you supose that your German friends will follow suite and incorrporate your design changes or are video-slot hardware designers going to have two different A2000 systems to think anbout. >>In particular, the "Westchester design" is supposed to make available >>the 12 raw RGB bits... for chroma-keying... > <George replies about chroma-keying, but not about 12 RGB bits> So, whats the beef? Will the A2000 have full 12-bit RGB information that comes from Denise available?? I just informed a fellow developer that he only had the Analog RGB signals shown in appendix F of the A2000 manual, page F-9 (nice manual by the way, schematics and chip pin-outs!). No one told us this was subject to change. What he is developing could sure take advantage of additional digital RGB signals. Can you post the pin-outs for the connector these are available on suggest a method for developers to get the new information? -- Rich Miner ULowell-Cntr for Productivity !ulowell!miner 617-452-5000x2693
bryce@COGSCI.BERKELEY.EDU (Bryce Nesbitt) (04/28/87)
>>In article <6370@amdahl.UUCP> kim@amdahl.UUCP (Kim DeVaughn) writes: >>In particular, the "Westchester design" is supposed to make available 12 >>raw RGB bits, which would then permit add on boards like "Chroma >>Keying", in addition to "Genlocking". > > Actually, the requests I've heard for chroma-keying work the other way, > with video being switched based of the color of the external video > input [...] This is really an analog video function. > Actually it depends just what you want to do... some may wish/need to spend more $$$ on their analog that C-A can for every production unit. This entire respose actually belongs to a PBS employee without net-access. It gives comments and worries about the Amiga 2000 from the standpoint of needs in production work. She currently uses a 1000 with 2 megs external ram and a extra DMA comtroller for data swapping. The station is considering several 2000's: --------strong needs/wishes------ Digital RGB on the video slot connector with 4 bits/gun and an extra 4 pins/gun of nothing for future expansion. If the extra half meg of memory is to be slow fast memory then a jumper or kludge to disable it so some true fast memory can be added. With the Amiga 1000 we are already using we need fast memory to keep the frame rate up when using high-res overscan interlace. It is unacceptable for any of the slow fast memory to get allocated. [Editorial: THIS is what I was talking about on the 500/They specify MEMF_FAST and expect to get it -Bryce] We run out of chip memory first... We run out of colors second... (though HAM with twice the bandwidth would probably about settle it) Better DESCRIPTIONS of the overscan support, particularly in relation to intuition and hot spots on gadgets. ----------other items---------- Tiny jumper on PCB to place +5 volts on the parallel port. If you want to get fancy you could spend as much as two PCB holes implementing this. I LOVE the modular (RJ-11) jack on the 1000's keyboard. First thing I did was go to Radio Shack and get a 25 footer. Too bad it's gone... MORE DISK SPACE! I heard sony has a 2 meg drive out, also one that runs at 600 RMP. Yes, I will pay more... must read/write older dis of a w inver
ud118191@ndsuvm1.bitnet.UUCP (04/28/87)
Kim mentions the possibility of doing Chroma Keying with a special device in
the future that would possibly fit into the specialized video slot of the
Amiga 2000. Ok...I ask you this much: What is your definition of Chroma Key?
I use the chroma key at a TV studio everyday, and it is part of the Master
Control in the TV control room. What good is having a chroma key without a
TV studio? I can't see any use of having a "Chroma Key Card" unless a person
wanted to stand in front of a green curtain (like I do when doing TV weather)
and have him/herself "superimposed" over the Amiga image. This would be very
difficult to do, and think of the cost of such a device. If it were to be a
professional chroma key, Commodore would have to do a better job at making
this great chroma key card than they did the Amiga Genlock. I've never
laughed harder than the day when we connected an Amiga Genlock to our Master
Control and it didn't work! Genlock...HA HA HA! And now a Chroma KEY? Oh, do
we all have a TV studio in our back yard? Think of the extreme vertical
market!daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (04/28/87)
in article <8704280904.AA22403@cogsci.berkeley.edu>, bryce@COGSCI.BERKELEY.EDU (Bryce Nesbitt) says: > Keywords: A2000 video > > Digital RGB on the video slot connector with 4 bits/gun and an extra > 4 pins/gun of nothing for future expansion. There is some room on the video connector for future expansion, though none of the available pins have yet been dedicated to anything. The video slot does provide better access to some video components than the 23 pin video plug. I'll post full specifications on it here as soon as the material is "de-classified". > If the extra half meg of memory is to be slow fast memory then a jumper > or kludge to disable it so some true fast memory can be added. With the > Amiga 1000 we are already using we need fast memory to keep the frame > rate up when using high-res overscan interlace. It is unacceptable for > any of the slow fast memory to get allocated. [Editorial: THIS is what I > was talking about on the 500/They specify MEMF_FAST and expect to get it > -Bryce] There's several things you can do to set up a system with the $C00000 memory that sees video chip contention. First of all, the $C00000 memory is a feature, not an end-all kind of thing. The $C00000 memory can be disabled or removed, physically. And of course, normal FAST memory can be added in expansion slots or on-the-side, depending on what your hardware configuration is. The only problem with this is that the slower $C00000 memory shows up first in the allocation list. A program (by Andy or Carolyn, or both) was written that will re-order the allocation scheme, such that true FAST memory is allocated before $C00000 memory is used. While you could really disable $C00000 RAM, you probably don't really want to, because: > We run out of chip memory first... I've done it myself, so I can sympathsize. If you have $C00000 memory in an Amiga system, certain OS elements, starting as far back as some ExecBase stuff, will be allocated in $C00000 memory instead of CHIP memory. This won't change your system's speed; this ExecBase and other stuff can't be located in autoconfiguration memory anyway, so its either $C00000 or CHIP memory. And also note that the $C00000 memory that's subject to video processor contention is subject to this contention because its located on the video memory bus, not the local 68000 bus. This leaves room for future upgrades that wouldn't be present if the $C00000 memory were truely FAST. Don't bash the "SLOW FAST MEMORY" too badly just yet, its there for reasons other than cost. > I LOVE the modular (RJ-11) jack on the 1000's keyboard. First thing I > did was go to Radio Shack and get a 25 footer. Too bad it's gone... The phone jack was dropped on the A2000 in favor of the much more reliable (though less easy to extend) DIN plug, and on the A500 for cost, of course. > MORE DISK SPACE! I heard sony has a 2 meg drive out, also one that runs at > 600 RMP. Yes, I will pay more... must read/write older disks, however. You could probably get a bit more data on the current floppys with a more sophisticated encoding scheme. There's no way for Paula to read higher RAW densities, though. Floppys seem to be making a comeback, I agree -- Kodak has a special floppy/drive combination based on the 5.25 format that can handle about 6.6 megabytes..... -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga Usenet: {ihnp4|caip|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh "The A2000 Guy" BIX : hazy "These are the days of miracle and wonder" -P. Simon
grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (05/01/87)
In article <1230@ulowell.cs.ulowell.edu> miner@ulowell.cs.ulowell.edu (Rich A Miner (.ram)) writes: >In article <1759@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> (George Robbins) writes: >>In article <6370@amdahl.UUCP> kim@amdahl.UUCP (Kim DeVaughn) writes: >>..West Chester design...We did take the liberty adding a few simple >> enhancemnts. >Do you supose that your German friends will follow suite and incorrporate >your design changes or are video-slot hardware designers going to have two >different A2000 systems to think anbout. The WC version is intended to be cheaper to manufacture, etc. and should eventually be *the* version. For the time, we'll concentrate on selling what we have, where we can sell it. >>>In particular, the "Westchester design" is supposed to make available >>>the 12 raw RGB bits... for chroma-keying... >> <George replies about chroma-keying, but not about 12 RGB bits> Like I said, almost all internal video related signals. I think this includes 12 bits, without being overly specific... >So, whats the beef? Will the A2000 have full 12-bit RGB information >that comes from Denise available?? I just informed a fellow developer >that he only had the Analog RGB signals shown in appendix F of the A2000 >manual, page F-9 (nice manual by the way, schematics and chip pin-outs!). Yeah, both the A500 and A2000 user manuals contain schematics of the system at the time the manual was printed. You'll probably still have to send in $$ if you want schematics that exactly match the current production revision. >No one told us this was subject to change. What he is developing >could sure take advantage of additional digital RGB signals. All things are subject to change, especially improvment. But, we (peon engineers and tech support folks) can only post info about new products/changes after the topic has been "cleared". >Can you post the pin-outs for the connector these are available or >suggest a method for developers to get the new information? As I understand it, an information package will be available concurrent with the realase of sample WC version systems to the developers. If you need something immediatly, press your case with the developer support people and/or send E-mail. -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (05/01/87)
In article <8704280904.AA22403@cogsci.berkeley.edu> bryce@COGSCI.BERKELEY.EDU (Bryce Nesbitt) writes: >> Actually, the requests I've heard for chroma-keying work the other way, >> with video being switched based of the color of the external video >> input [...] This is really an analog video function. >Actually it depends just what you want to do... some may wish/need to spend >more $$$ on their analog that C-A can for every production unit. Agreed. I was commenting that the availability of all the digital color bits didn't have any bearing on chroma-keying as we understood the primary desire for it. >This entire respose actually belongs to a PBS employee without net-access. >It gives comments and worries about the Amiga 2000 from the standpoint of >needs in production work. She currently uses a 1000 with 2 megs external >ram an a extra DMA comtroller for data swapping. The station is >considering several 2000's: > >--------strong needs/wishes------ > >Digital RGB on the video slot connector with 4 bits/gun and an extra >4 pins/gun of nothing for future expansion. The 4 bits/gun are there. I woudn't expect to see 8/bits gun available externally. If you were to widen the color table, you'd almost certainly got to an integrated color table/video DAC solution. >If the extra half meg of memory is to be slow fast memory then a jumper >or kludge to disable it so some true fast memory can be added. With the >Amiga 1000 we are already using we need fast memory to keep the frame >rate up when using high-res overscan interlace. It is unacceptable for >any of the slow fast memory to get allocated. There is a jumper location specifically for this purpose, if you feel your application demands it. [Editorial: THIS is what I >was talking about on the 500/They specify MEMF_FAST and expect to get it >-Bryce] This is a software problem (say's a hardware person). There's a program to delete the C0 memory from the "FAST" chain, if that's enought to solve your problem. In the long run, I'm afraid the "FAST" notion may need refinement, as there is no simple way the system software can be sure some external (or internal) memory is really fast. All it can really say it isn't chip memory. >We run out of chip memory first... We're working on this. >We run out of colors second... (though HAM with twice the bandwidth would >probably about settle it) No immediate hope here... >Better DESCRIPTIONS of the overscan support, particularly in relation to >intuition and hot spots on gadgets. The best be here is the amiga.dev public group on bix. There have a number of discussion between the people who have made overscan do what they want, and those trying to find out how to do so. >----------other items---------- >Tiny jumper on PCB to place +5 volts on the parallel port. If you want >to get fancy you could spend as much as two PCB holes implementing this. There's a resistor there that you can replace with a jumper if you feel compelled to do so. Don't try to plug in a standard IBM printer cable/printer if you do, because there is *NO* +5 at all on the IBM PC standard printer connector. >I LOVE the modular (RJ-11) jack on the 1000's keyboard. First thing I >did was go to Radio Shack and get a 25 footer. Too bad it's gone... Sorry, PC shape, PC style keyboard, PC keyboard connector. It's not too much harder to make up an extension cord and we don't have to worry about whether the random phone cord you pick up is wired correctly or will meltdown and/or blow your keyboard. >MORE DISK SPACE! I heard sony has a 2 meg drive out, also one that runs at >600 RMP. Yes, I will pay more... must read/write older disks, however. Maybe, but the controller doesn't support this stuff now. If you're doing something serious, get a hard drive. Floppies are ok for program interchange, but as long as a floppy is smaller than your RAM size, they sure as hell aren't mass storage. They don't exactly make the ideal hard disk backup device either. Given some software developement, our hard disk/SCSI controller should support reasonably effective cartridge tape drives. -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (05/01/87)
In article <144UD118191@NDSUVM1> UD118191@NDSUVM1.BITNET writes: >Kim mentions the possibility of doing Chroma Keying with a special device in >the future that would possibly fit into the specialized video slot of the >Amiga 2000. Ok...I ask you this much: What is your definition of Chroma Key? >I use the chroma key at a TV studio everyday, and it is part of the Master >Control in the TV control room. What good is having a chroma key without a >TV studio? I can't see any use of having a "Chroma Key Card" unless a person >wanted to stand in front of a green curtain (like I do when doing TV weather) >and have him/herself "superimposed" over the Amiga image. Don't you think we want to see our images floating over a graphics background also? Professional toys have little to do with desire. > This would be very >difficult to do, and think of the cost of such a device. If it were to be a >professional chroma key, Commodore would have to do a better job at making >this great chroma key card than they did the Amiga Genlock. Actually, since I found out what chroma-keying was about, I've thought it is something that should be part of the Genlock peripheral. Once you've done the RGB separation, the actual chroma-keying shouldn't be difficult, just three video-speed comparators and a touch of logic. Might cost five dollars or so. > I've never >laughed harder than the day when we connected an Amiga Genlock to our Master >Control and it didn't work! Genlock...HA HA HA! And now a Chroma KEY? Oh, do >we all have a TV studio in our back yard? Think of the extreme vertical >market! Well? How did it fail and were you able to get it to work? My understanding is that for real broadcast quality output, you need to run the RGB video into the studio bus and the SYNC through some kind of sync regenerator. Was it worse than this? BTW, how many A1000's and Genlock's can you buy for the price of a typical studio titler or other typical piece of equipment? -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)