keithd@cadovax.UUCP (05/16/87)
In article <1868@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> carolyn@cbmvax.UUCP (Carolyn Scheppner CATS) writes: > I'd like to clarify a legal issue here. Files from the WorkBench disk >may not be distributed on shareware or freeware or in any publicly >redistributable manner. The contents of the Workbench disk is copyrighted. This is still a bit fuzzy in my mind. Does that mean you can do an 'install' on a newly formatted disk without obtaining a license or not? What about the ram-handler, disk-validator, and port-handler and system-configuration? If these aren't included, what is the impact of booting a disk without these on it? Aside from the extra $100 a year revenue, I was wondering what the rationale is. >The files may only be distributed by an individual or company with a >Workbench License. The licensee must be the sole distributor and must >adhere to the rules of the license regarding copyright notices, disclaimers, >etc. This makes public redistribution impossible under the contract. I'm trying to decide if what you are saying is that it is not legal to produce a public domain disk that is self-bootable. Slideshow disks for example. A friend of mine is a commercial artist that has a series of his images and a PD slideshow on it configured to boot up and run the slideshow. Is it legal for him to distribute it PD? If so, could he decide to charge for it without incurring the $100? (starving artist counts pennies). If someone decided to contribute $100 to Fred Fish for the purpose of getting a workbench license, can we all then just give Fred bootable disks and have him distribute them all for us? Or on the other hand, if all this is not legal, has anyone out there seen any PD boot-up software that will address these problems? > Publicly redistributable software can be distributed with an installation >script designed to strip a user's copy of Workbench and install itself >onto that copy of Workbench. That's different than a boot disk designed for the dumb dumb user who wouldn't even know how to execute a script or run the CLI. We're talking first-time Amiga users here. So what's the exact scoop? Keith Doyle # {ucbvax,ihnp4,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd # cadovax!keithd@ucla-locus.arpa Contel Business Systems 213-323-8170
farren@hoptoad.uucp (Mike Farren) (05/17/87)
Keith Doyle seems to have some problems. Here are my responses. Sorry, Keith, but it doesn't seem "fuzzy" to me! In article <1541@cadovax.UUCP> keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) writes: >In article <1868@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> carolyn@cbmvax.UUCP writes: >> I'd like to clarify a legal issue here. Files from the WorkBench disk >>may not be distributed on shareware or freeware or in any publicly >>redistributable manner. The contents of the Workbench disk is copyrighted. > >This is still a bit fuzzy in my mind. Does that mean you can do an >'install' on a newly formatted disk without obtaining a license or not? Of course you can. What you can't do is to sell or (strictly) give that disk to the public. >What about the ram-handler, disk-validator, and port-handler and >system-configuration? If these aren't included, what is the impact >of booting a disk without these on it? Probably won't boot. I'm not going to check it out - I've had enough disk problems as it is! It seems pretty clear from Carolyn's statement that these files cannot be distributed. >I'm trying to decide if what you are saying is that it is not legal to >produce a public domain disk that is self-bootable. Seems to me that that's exactly what she's saying. >A friend of mine is a commercial artist that has a series >of his images and a PD slideshow on it configured to boot up and run the >slideshow. Is it legal for him to distribute it PD? If so, could he >decide to charge for it without incurring the $100? (starving artist >counts pennies). No, he cannot distribute it as a bootable disk, with or without charging for it. >If someone decided to contribute $100 to Fred Fish for the >purpose of getting a workbench license, can we all then just give Fred >bootable disks and have him distribute them all for us? Presumably he could, if and only if nobody else ever copied them. Since I have gotten most of my Fish disks from other sources than Fred, it seems that this would not be practical. >> Publicly redistributable software can be distributed with an installation >>script designed to strip a user's copy of Workbench and install itself >>onto that copy of Workbench. > >That's different than a boot disk designed for the dumb dumb user who >wouldn't even know how to execute a script or run the CLI. We're talking >first-time Amiga users here. Seems to me that one solution would be for someone to write a little program that would be run automatically when a disk was first brought up, which would prompt for the original Workbench disk and do the install automatically. This would, presumably, take care of all the problems. If I have been talking out of the side of my hat (not that I would ever do such a thing :->), Carolyn or one of the other CATS should let me know. -- ---------------- "... if the church put in half the time on covetousness Mike Farren that it does on lust, this would be a better world ..." hoptoad!farren Garrison Keillor, "Lake Wobegon Days"
innes@unccvax.UUCP (Norm Innes) (05/17/87)
In article <2142@hoptoad.uucp>, farren@hoptoad.uucp (Mike Farren) writes: > In article <1541@cadovax.UUCP> keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) writes: > > In article <1868@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> carolyn@cbmvax.UUCP writes: > > > I'd like to clarify a legal issue here. Files from the WorkBench disk > > > may not be distributed on shareware or freeware or in any publicly > > > redistributable manner. The contents of the Workbench disk is copyrighted. > > > > This is still a bit fuzzy in my mind. Does that mean you can do an > > 'install' on a newly formatted disk without obtaining a license or not? > > Of course you can. What you can't do is to sell or (strictly) give that disk > to the public. Carolyn's remarks refer to the distribution of *files* from the WorkBench disk. Consider the case, for example, where a number of public domain picture files, along with a suitable display program, are copied to a newly formatted disk. If you then run the install command to install that disk (without copying any WorkBench files) you can boot the disk and run the display program from the default CLI that appears. You can't do a LoadWB, of course, since you don't have the necessary files on that disk, nor do you have any of the usual CLI commands at your disposal. You can, however, add a suitable startup command file (s/startup-sequence) so the disk will boot and then automatically run the display program. It appears that this would satisfy many of the needs for bootable PD disks without infringing on copyrighted WorkBench files.
fnf@mcdsun.UUCP (Fred Fish) (05/18/87)
In article <1541@cadovax.UUCP> keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) writes: >In article <1868@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> carolyn@cbmvax.UUCP (Carolyn Scheppner CATS) writes: >>The files may only be distributed by an individual or company with a >>Workbench License. The licensee must be the sole distributor and must >>adhere to the rules of the license regarding copyright notices, disclaimers, >>etc. This makes public redistribution impossible under the contract. >If someone decided to contribute $100 to Fred Fish for the >purpose of getting a workbench license, can we all then just give Fred >bootable disks and have him distribute them all for us? This would certainly allow *ME* to distribute bootable disks, but would defeat a major purpose of the library, that of making it freely redistributable by anyone ("freely" here refering to tolerable legal restrictions, if any, as opposed to monetary exchange). Given such a hypothetical situation, individuals or Amiga dealers could probably allow copying of the disks (after all, distributers and dealers don't have to obtain Workbench Licenses to *sell* (or give away at a loss if they are so inclined) commercial products that are distributed by the producer under a Workbench License. Of course, I have never seen the text of such a license so this is just supposition... >> Publicly redistributable software can be distributed with an installation >>script designed to strip a user's copy of Workbench and install itself >>onto that copy of Workbench. Given that the focus of my library has always been the experienced user, this is my prefered solution. You may have noticed on some of my later disks that I've started making them more "Workbench friendly" where this is reasonable and does not require me rewriting the code to make it work under Workbench. -Fred -- = Drug tests; just say *NO*! (Moto just announced new drug testing program) = = Fred Fish Motorola Computer Division, 3013 S 52nd St, Tempe, Az 85282 USA = = seismo!noao!mcdsun!fnf (602) 438-5976 =
carolyn@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Carolyn Scheppner CATS) (05/18/87)
In article <1541@cadovax.UUCP> keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) writes: >In article <1868@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> carolyn@cbmvax.UUCP (Carolyn Scheppner CATS) writes: >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> I'd like to clarify a legal issue here. Files from the WorkBench disk >> may not be distributed on shareware or freeware or in any publicly >> redistributable manner. The contents of the Workbench disk is copyrighted. >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >This is still a bit fuzzy in my mind. Does that mean you can do an >'install' on a newly formatted disk without obtaining a license or not? You can do whatever you want with your newly formatted disk. But if you put anything from Workbench on it, you can not give it away or sell it. If you are selling an Amiga software product and you are the sole publisher/distributer of the product, you can get a Workbench license which will allow you to distribute your product with Workbench files on the disk. The license currently costs $100/year and requires that you include C-A copyright statements and disclaimers. This obviously precludes any type of shareware/freeware/pd type of distribution because you would not be the sole publisher/distributer and would not be able to enforce compliance with the terms of the license. >What about the ram-handler, disk-validator, and port-handler and >system-configuration? If these aren't included, what is the impact >of booting a disk without these on it? I suggest you don't try. You'll probably GURU, hopefully BEFORE you trash your disks. >Aside from the extra $100 a year revenue, I was wondering >what the rationale is. Protection of our copyrights and control over the distribution of our copyrighted material. >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> The files may only be distributed by an individual or company with a >> Workbench License. The licensee must be the sole distributor and must >> adhere to the rules of the license regarding copyright notices, disclaimers, >> etc. This makes public redistribution impossible under the contract. >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >I'm trying to decide if what you are saying is that it is not legal to >produce a public domain disk that is self-bootable. Slideshow disks >for example. A friend of mine is a commercial artist that has a series >of his images and a PD slideshow on it configured to boot up and run the >slideshow. Is it legal for him to distribute it PD? If so, could he >decide to charge for it without incurring the $100? (starving artist >counts pennies). That is what I am saying. It is not legal to distribute a public domain disk which is bootable or contains any of the contents of the Workbench disk. >If someone decided to contribute $100 to Fred Fish for the >purpose of getting a workbench license, can we all then just give Fred >bootable disks and have him distribute them all for us? Not at this time. It is possible that we might be able to work out some type of text file to be displayed by the startup-sequence which would state our copyrights and disclaimers, and then a mattress tag type of statement (You may not remove or modify this file or the code which displays this file under penalty of law). If this can be worked out with the legal department, it may be possible in the future to license Workbench for PD distribution. I'll see what I can do. No promises. >Or on the other hand, if all this is not legal, has anyone out there seen >any PD boot-up software that will address these problems? Yes. They supply a script that creates the bootable disk. >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Publicly redistributable software can be distributed with an installation >>script designed to strip a user's copy of Workbench and install itself >>onto that copy of Workbench. >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >That's different than a boot disk designed for the dumb dumb user who >wouldn't even know how to execute a script or run the CLI. We're talking >first-time Amiga users here. This is true. As I said, I'll see what I can do. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Carolyn Scheppner -- CBM >>Amiga Technical Support<< UUCP ...{allegra,caip,ihnp4,seismo}!cbmvax!carolyn PHONE 215-431-9180 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
carolyn@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Carolyn Scheppner CATS) (05/18/87)
In article <709@unccvax.UUCP> innes@unccvax.UUCP (Norm Innes) writes: >In article <2142@hoptoad.uucp>, farren@hoptoad.uucp (Mike Farren) writes: >> In article <1541@cadovax.UUCP> keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) writes: >> > In article <1868@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> carolyn@cbmvax.UUCP writes: >> > > I'd like to clarify a legal issue here. Files from the WorkBench disk >> > > may not be distributed on shareware or freeware or in any publicly >> > > redistributable manner. The contents of the Workbench disk is copyrighted. >> > >> > This is still a bit fuzzy in my mind. Does that mean you can do an >> > 'install' on a newly formatted disk without obtaining a license or not? >> >> Of course you can. What you can't do is to sell or (strictly) give that disk >> to the public. > >Carolyn's remarks refer to the distribution of *files* from the WorkBench disk. >Consider the case, for example, where a number of public domain picture files, >along with a suitable display program, are copied to a newly formatted disk. >If you then run the install command to install that disk (without copying any >WorkBench files) you can boot the disk and run the display program from the >default CLI that appears. You can't do a LoadWB, of course, since you don't >have the necessary files on that disk, nor do you have any of the usual CLI >commands at your disposal. You can, however, add a suitable startup command >file (s/startup-sequence) so the disk will boot and then automatically run the >display program. > >It appears that this would satisfy many of the needs for bootable PD disks >without infringing on copyrighted WorkBench files. Sorry, but it won't work. A boot disk needs the L directory handlers and disk-validator. Probably also needs quite a bit of what's in DEVS:. [ Sorry about the long quote and the short answer. Take some of my previous long answer and make believe it's here ] -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Carolyn Scheppner -- CBM >>Amiga Technical Support<< UUCP ...{allegra,caip,ihnp4,seismo}!cbmvax!carolyn PHONE 215-431-9180 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
keithd@cadovax.UUCP (05/20/87)
In article <709@unccvax.UUCP> innes@unccvax.UUCP (Norm Innes) writes: >Carolyn's remarks refer to the distribution of *files* from the WorkBench disk. >Consider the case, for example, where a number of public domain picture files, >along with a suitable display program, are copied to a newly formatted disk. >If you then run the install command to install that disk (without copying any >WorkBench files) you can boot the disk and run the display program from the >default CLI that appears. You can't do a LoadWB, of course, since you don't >have the necessary files on that disk, nor do you have any of the usual CLI >commands at your disposal. You can, however, add a suitable startup command >file (s/startup-sequence) so the disk will boot and then automatically run the >display program. > >It appears that this would satisfy many of the needs for bootable PD disks >without infringing on copyrighted WorkBench files. Except if you have to have the person RECEIVING the disk do the install, instead of doing the install BEFORE making the disk public domain, you lose all of the dumb users who don't know how to use the CLI. And in other words, YOU CANNOT LEGALLY DISTRIBUTE A PUBLIC DOMAIN AMIGA DISK THAT WILL BOOT. Even if all you want to boot to is your own little program that dosen't use any WB files. At least until someone can come up with a PD version of 'install'. Bah! Keith Doyle # {ucbvax,ihnp4,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd # cadovax!keithd@ucla-locus.arpa Contel Business Systems 213-323-8170
ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) (05/20/87)
In article <1891@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> carolyn@cbmvax.UUCP (Carolyn Scheppner CATS) writes: >Sorry, but it won't work. A boot disk needs the L directory handlers and >disk-validator. Probably also needs quite a bit of what's in DEVS:. > I beg to differ. Do the following: Format a fresh disk. 1> format drive df1: name "Pthpthpthpt!" noicons Next, make it bootable. 1> install df1: Now, plug this new -- and totally empty -- disk into the internal drive, and reboot. It'll boot. Mind you, you'll have no commands, and you'll be stuck in 64-column mode, with all the workbench defaults, but it'll boot. Software that you may run that opens libraries won't work of course (unless you re-assign LIBS:). If the program is properly written, however, it will bomb out gracefully and tell you that it can't open the library it needs. So all you need to make a disk bootable is to install it. Everything else on the disk is just there to support software that you may use, but isn't *absolutely* necessary. If it turns out I'm blatantly wrong about this, let me know. _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape ihnp4!ptsfa -\ \_ -_ Bike shrunk by popular demand, dual ---> !{well,unicom}!ewhac O----^o But it's still the only way to fly. hplabs / (pronounced "AE-wack") "Work FOR? I don't work FOR anybody! I'm just having fun." -- The Doctor
keithd@cadovax.UUCP (05/20/87)
In article <1890@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> carolyn@cbmvax.UUCP (Carolyn Scheppner CATS) writes: >>Or on the other hand, if all this is not legal, has anyone out there seen >>any PD boot-up software that will address these problems? > >Yes. They supply a script that creates the bootable disk. > >>That's different than a boot disk designed for the dumb dumb user who >>wouldn't even know how to execute a script or run the CLI. We're talking >>first-time Amiga users here. > >This is true. As I said, I'll see what I can do. Thanks for the efforts Carolyn, I know what it is like to deal with corporate lawyers who really have no idea how all of this stuff is being used. To me, we've succeeded when one can legally: 1) Go into a store that sells Amigas, 2) Give a salesman a disk that says 'boot me' on it, 3) Leave the store with the knowledge that 2 weeks later, when another salesman finds the disk in the 'demo' bin, he will easily be able to figure it out enough to be able to boot it and run the slideshow or other demo program. Computer salesman can not be expected to be able to remember or figure out how to get to the CLI, and do an 'install' or execute a script before they can run a PD disk. My local Federated has a whole bin of PD graphics demos they use in the store to demo the machines. It is clear that none of the salesmen know how to setup a slideshow disk. Come to find out, that a customer has been helping them out to try to help out Amiga sales. He comes in periodically with bootable slideshow disks that he gives them for that purpose. I've heard this happens at other stores. Apparently it is technically illegal. It's a good thing not too many people have been thinking about that, as it could have meant fewer Amiga sales. Now I suppose, as many PD libraries do, one could produce a PD disk that has icons to start up the demo, without including any Workbench files. However, I almost NEVER use the Workbench. All of the disks I configure for myself with slides on them just use the good-ol startup-sequence. Since 'install' puts workbench data on a disk that can't be deleted, as it is not a file, I would have to: 1) Format a new disk. 2) Copy the picture files and slideshow program to the disk 3) make an icon for the slideshow program 4) figure out how to configure the 'info' on the icon to invoke the slideshow with it's associated script files. 5) make sure the slideshow program WORKS from an icon. I suppose this could be done with a script once I take the time to figure it out for the first time, but there are about a half dozen slideshow programs out there that work differently, and would probably need special considerations. And the one that comes down the net next week will probably need new special considerations. And I suppose its possible some won't work correctly from the workbench anyway if they do printfs or something, I don't know. Even then, if the in-store machine dosen't have an external drive, it may add to the difficulty/confusion. You know how much easier it is to simply do a 'copy' of the disk as I use it? When a friend comes over, and wants the latest images I've collected, or if I feel like going over to Federated, and 'being a nice guy' by giving them a new slideshow, which method do you think is likely I will use? If I want to run down to a local computer show or users group meeting to show off the latest Amiga pictures, which method do you think I will use? I respect Commodore's rights to their software, and understand how they may want to 'maintain control' over it. However, in my mind, the present philosophy serves to either discourage such free distribution of demo disks, and/or encourage the illegal distribution of such disks due to the added effort required to produce a 'legal' demo. After all, none of that software will run on anything but Amiga hardware. And, everyone who buys an Amiga gets that software with it, so should already have equivalent rights to it anyway. From a user's perspective, the only difference is ease of use. And another side note, if you DELETE the Workbench system files, is that good enough? There are a variety of utilities that will undelete files out there. I've got it! If someone writes a program that boots up to a special program that undeletes all the workbench files, runs 'install' on itself and then reboots, it can be then distributed and the first time it boots will reconstruct the workbench environment as needed from 'deleted' files. Hmmm... Not really any easier to set up than the 5 step approach described above though. Isn't dependent on this weeks slideshow program characteristics, but it probably makes 'deleting' files not legally good enough anyway. So Carolyn, good luck in trying to get the powers that be to address these issues. I'd like more of us to be inspired to 'help the Amiga sales' by passing around a few 'free' disks, instead of being discouraged of that because we might be doing something illegal. Keith Doyle # {ucbvax,ihnp4,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd # cadovax!keithd@ucla-locus.arpa Contel Business Systems 213-323-8170
hrlaser@pnet02.UUCP (05/20/87)
Keith, you're lucky. At least your local Federated is a step past
MY local Federated. The few times I've wandered back to their computer
sales area, the demo Amiga usually has the "Insert Kickstart" hand on
the screen. I guess they don't leave the Kickstart disk out assuming
someone will steal it, so they put it away and the salesman turning
on the machine in the morning can't find where the last guy left it!
Great way to sell Amigas, eh?
Harv
PeopleLink: CBM*HARV
UUCP: {akgua!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!pnet02!hrlaser
INET: hrlaser@pnet02.CTS.COMrichard@pnet02.UUCP (05/20/87)
I think Keiths federated is the same as yours Harv, I mean how many are there
in Torrance, just Ye Olde Towne, right?
UUCP: {akgua!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!pnet02!richard
INET: richard@pnet02.CTS.COMcarolyn@cbmvax.UUCP (05/20/87)
In article <3094@well.UUCP> ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes: >In article <1891@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> carolyn@cbmvax.UUCP (Carolyn Scheppner CATS) writes: >>Sorry, but it won't work. A boot disk needs the L directory handlers and >>disk-validator. Probably also needs quite a bit of what's in DEVS:. >> > I beg to differ. Do the following: > > Format a fresh disk. >1> format drive df1: name "Pthpthpthpt!" noicons > > Next, make it bootable. >1> install df1: > > Now, plug this new -- and totally empty -- disk into the internal >drive, and reboot. > > It'll boot. Mind you, you'll have no commands, and you'll be stuck >in 64-column mode, with all the workbench defaults, but it'll boot. I stand corrected. If a program doesn't use any disk resident devices or libraries (including icon.library), doesn't use Execute(), doesn't use ram:, doesn't need workbench or any cli commands, and never ever writes to a disk, it can be booted off an Install'd disk which contains nothing else. This configuration may be acceptable for some pd running demo type applications. I forgot about this type of standalone program and was thinking only of the type of boot disk required for something like Chris Gray's Draco language system disk. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Carolyn Scheppner -- CBM >>Amiga Technical Support<< UUCP ...{allegra,caip,ihnp4,seismo}!cbmvax!carolyn PHONE 215-431-9180 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
cmcmanis@pepper.UUCP (05/20/87)
In article <1549@cadovax.UUCP> keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) writes: > >Except if you have to have the person RECEIVING the disk do the install, >instead of doing the install BEFORE making the disk public domain, you >lose all of the dumb users who don't know how to use the CLI. And in other >words, YOU CANNOT LEGALLY DISTRIBUTE A PUBLIC DOMAIN AMIGA DISK THAT >WILL BOOT. Even if all you want to boot to is your own little program >that dosen't use any WB files. At least until someone can come up with >a PD version of 'install'. Bah! > >Keith Doyle Of course with the latency of netnews I am sure this will get bounced around a few more times but what the heck. As Leo has pointed out (and I have verified) you can indeed format a diskette and run 'install' on it and it will boot to the initial CLI and stop. Why does it do this? Because AmigaDOS IS IN THE KICKSTART ROM NOT ON THE DISK. All the install does is put about 32 bytes of object code into the 'boot' sector to call the DOS IN ROM. There are NO COPYRIGHTED FILES ON THE DISK AT ALL. Now we all know that a disk with nothing on it is not very useful, however you could put your own startup script, and some ARP command replacements on the disk. There is no replacement for disk-validator yet so it had better not get corrupted however it is also a simple matter to instruct the use in what to do if it does get corrupted, "Boot your machine from your workbench disk, stick the 'mumble' disk in any drive, after it stops grinding the disk will have been validated again and you can go back to using it as before." I guess this probably points to some things that would make good ARP projects... --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) (05/20/87)
In article <513@gryphon.CTS.COM> richard@pnet02.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) writes: >I think Keiths federated is the same as yours Harv, I mean how many are there >in Torrance, just Ye Olde Towne, right? I guess it just depends on what salesman is there that day. Which goes to prove my point, SOME salesman can't even be expected to figure out how to BOOT an Amiga, much less run a script against a PD disk so it can be booted. Keith Doyle # {ucbvax,ihnp4,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd # cadovax!keithd@ucla-locus.arpa Contel Business Systems 213-323-8170
kim@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kim DeVaughn) (05/21/87)
In article <1551@cadovax.UUCP>, keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) writes: > After all, none of that software will run on anything but Amiga > hardware. And, everyone who buys an Amiga gets that software with > it, so should already have equivalent rights to it anyway. From a > user's perspective, the only difference is ease of use. Once upon a time, there was a company called IBM. They never expected to see their big operating systems (MVS, VM, etc.) run on anything but a big Blue machine. They were wrong! Now as unlikely as it is that anyone will ever "clone" the Amiga H/W, it is in CBM's best interest to fully protect their rights. It is also in their best interest to provide a method that allows *anyone* to distribute "turnkey" applications. Perhaps CBM could allow some minimal set of AmigaDOS commands, libs, devices, or whatever, to be excluded from copying and redistribution restrictions. Just enough to Execute a script that would copy anything else that the target application required from a "real" Workbench floppy, over to the application's floppy. This operation would only need to be performed the 1st time the floppy was "booted". Anyway, such a compromise might make selling the idea to the lawyers and bean-counters a little easier for you, Carolyn. Good luck! /kim [ Any thoughts or opinions which may or may not have been expressed ] [ herein are my own. They are not necessarily those of my employer. ] -- UUCP: kim@amdahl.amdahl.com or: {sun,decwrl,hplabs,pyramid,ihnp4,seismo,oliveb,cbosgd}!amdahl!kim DDD: 408-746-8462 USPS: Amdahl Corp. M/S 249, 1250 E. Arques Av, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 CIS: 76535,25
elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) (05/21/87)
in article <1541@cadovax.UUCP>, keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) says: > > In article <1868@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> carolyn@cbmvax.UUCP (Carolyn Scheppner CATS) writes: >> I'd like to clarify a legal issue here. Files from the WorkBench disk >>may not be distributed on shareware or freeware or in any publicly >>redistributable manner. The contents of the Workbench disk is copyrighted. > >> Publicly redistributable software can be distributed with an installation >>script designed to strip a user's copy of Workbench and install itself >>onto that copy of Workbench. Hi ho, Hi ho, brain-damaged lawyers galore, feed us cash, and we'll feed you bills and from our mouths will pour spouts of swill! (such as the above quotes from Carolyn, which are obviously depraved rantings of brain-dead lawyers... after all, everybody knows that you need an Amiga to run Workbench, and everybody knows that each Amiga already COMES with Workbench....) By the way, I'm not sure as to the legality of one legal owner of a piece of software giving a copy of his software to another legal owner of that piece of software. For example, I am a legal owner of SuperForth-64, and one of my disks was bad upon recieving it. I re-copied that disk from another friend with SuperForth-64, instead of waiting for a month while Parsec Research shipped me new disks. Gosh golly, that makes me one of them "software pirates", huh, according to Commodore's lawyers! So what's the difference between Fred Fish giving me, a legal owner of Workbench, a copy of Workbench on a public domain disk, and me copying that SuperForth disk? *WITH PERMISSION OF PARSEC RESEARCH*, by the way -- I called them when I found the bad disk, and mentioned that my friend had it. So what's the big deal? As a software author myself, and copyright holder on a couple of semi-commercial programs, I am quite aware of problems of piracy etc. However, I fail to see any problem here, since the only company making the Amiga is Commodore, and thus the Workbench wouldn't do anybody else any good. Oops, I forget. It WOULD be useful for programmers to be able to put the Workbench on their disks.... oh dear, it's useful, how much can we rip.... err.... charge them for it? (snicker snicker). And it's useful for PROGRAMMERS! Hey, we shouldn't subsidize those nasty critters by letting them put Workbench on PD disks for FREE, who knows, maybe they'd even start writing PROGRAMS, ooh ick, what a disaster! -- Eric Green elg%usl.CSNET CS student, University of SW Louisiana {cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg Apprentice Haquer, Bayou Telecommunications Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 BBS phone #: 318-984-3854 300/1200 baud Lafayette, LA 70509 I disclaim my existence, and yours, too.
bryce@COGSCI.BERKELEY.EDU (Bryce Nesbitt) (05/21/87)
In article <> carolyn@cbmvax.UUCP (Carolyn Scheppner CATS) writes: >>Or on the other hand, if all this is not legal, has anyone out there seen >>any PD boot-up software that will address these problems? > >Yes. They supply a script that creates the bootable disk. > >>That's different than a boot disk designed for the dumb dumb user who >>wouldn't even know how to execute a script or run the CLI. We're talking >>first-time Amiga users here. > >This is true. As I said, I'll see what I can do. You do NOT need to require CLI knowlege to execute a script that would copy workbench files from a user's disk to the product disk. A file that was passed 'round a while back called "ICONEXEC" will give a Workbench icon to a CLI command. I do not have a copy, but it probably ended up on a FISH disk. > Computer salesman can not be expected to be able to remember or figure > out how to get to the CLI, and do an 'install' or execute a script before > they can run a PD disk. The *should* be able to, but *should* not have too. > [This person] comes in > periodically with bootable slideshow disks that he gives them for that > purpose. I've heard this happens at other stores. Apparently it is > technically illegal. [goes on to talk about INSTALL] Inspired by your letter, I wrote a PD version of install. See the next posting...
scotty@l5comp.UUCP (Scott Turner) (05/21/87)
In article <1891@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> carolyn@cbmvax.UUCP (Carolyn Scheppner CATS) writes: >In article <709@unccvax.UUCP> innes@unccvax.UUCP (Norm Innes) writes: >>In article <2142@hoptoad.uucp>, farren@hoptoad.uucp (Mike Farren) writes: >>> In article <1541@cadovax.UUCP> keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) writes: >>> > In article <1868@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> carolyn@cbmvax.UUCP writes: B >>> > > I'd like to clarify a legal issue here. Files from the WorkBench disk >>> > > may not be distributed on shareware or freeware or in any publicly >>> > > redistributable manner. The contents of the Workbench disk is copyrighted. >>> > >>> > This is still a bit fuzzy in my mind. Does that mean you can do an >>> > 'install' on a newly formatted disk without obtaining a license or not? >>> >>> Of course you can. What you can't do is to sell or (strictly) give that disk >>> to the public. >Sorry, but it won't work. A boot disk needs the L directory handlers and >disk-validator. Probably also needs quite a bit of what's in DEVS:. A boot disk doesn't need any of that stuff to boot. PROGRAMS on the other hand may wish to have some of this stuff. But if your program is self contained then I've got the program for you! At the end of this article you will find a program I wrote to answer the question of "Can I install or can I not install". It does it by supplying a new install program that puts non-infringing but 100% compatible boot code on the disk. So A now you can install and thumb yer nose at C-A Inc.! :-) I think it's a sad state when we have to sink to cloning to get around silly BS like this. The new boot code is the same size as the C-A original but executes a few cycles slower. On the bright side you can modify this program to install anything that will fit in the 1024 byte boot section on a floppy! Been hankering to make a copy protected auto-boot disk? Here's yer shot. Want to load stuff and set it up rather than come in and tear out stuff THEN setup? Use this and get in there BEFORE stuff gets setup! :) (Like change the CLI for a shell without playing head games I think...) Give your product a startup screen just like on a Mac! The uses are endless. On a more practical note, if your program requires something from the workbench disk (disk based library, SER:, PAR: etc) then modify this program to put a bootblock on your disk that tells the user your disk isn't bootable. This beats having the user think the disk is busted! This program is hardwired for DF0:, BUT unlike INSTALL it doesn't copy 1000 bytes of non-zero'd ram to yer disk. You'd be amazed at what you find in those bootblocks out there! I found several lines of MY source code on one of my floppy boot disks(!) So I consider this program more 'secure' than install. Scott Turner L5 Computing, the home of Merlin, Arthur, Excalibur and the CRAM. GEnie: JST | UUCP: stride!l5comp!scotty | 12311 Maplewood Ave; Edmonds WA 98020 If Motorola had wanted us to use BPTR's they'd have built in shifts on A regs [ BCPL? 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MW,F//,HB-P-[*<J4O`-YQLC6DG%E$`>L7,V2#,F5G,QYG`!)MP/.?,I2ZVB] M3,K?C(R-G!L@X,JFK)0E2@,X`,KG/,E2*\SB?,SSG,BH+'(H:AQ/T&I-\!-X MK,C1W,[5+,W][*\Y$\TV0-!?,'',1`5(\-!2:Y\4301!H!@:7<F`@FND9@1& MH!-4H-$J'7%%X`0_`1H````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` $```````` ` end -- L5 Computing, the home of Merlin, Arthur, Excalibur and the CRAM. GEnie: JST | UUCP: stride!l5comp!scotty | 12311 Maplewood Ave; Edmonds WA 98020 If Motorola had wanted us to use BPTR's they'd have built in shifts on A regs [ BCPL? Just say *NO*! ] (I don't smoke, send flames to /dev/null)
upl@puff.WISC.EDU (Future Unix Gurus) (05/21/87)
Hey, wasn't there a pd program around called Xicon that let you attach an execute file to an icon in some manner? Seems like this is the obvious naive-user-installation tool, and since its PD it could be redistributed..... Could someone maybe re-post that sucker or tell us where it can be found in the FF library ? Jeff Kesselman upl@puff.cs.wisc.edu
scotty@l5comp.UUCP (Scott Turner) (05/22/87)
In article <19350@sun.uucp> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: >does it do this? Because AmigaDOS IS IN THE KICKSTART ROM NOT ON THE >DISK. All the install does is put about 32 bytes of object code into >the 'boot' sector to call the DOS IN ROM. There are NO COPYRIGHTED Wrongo Chuck. Install puts about 20 bytes of code in the boot sectors and about 1000 bytes of whatever is lying around in memory PLUS the required 12 bytes of info dealing with 1. This IS a DOS disk 2. A checksum 3. Where the root node is on the disk. Interestingly enough this seems to be the function of the boot code as well, except it returns a pointer to the RootNode memory structure which is not the same as the disk's rootnode :). It also doesn't call anything except FindResident (OpenLibrary doesn't work at this point in the bootstrap) and then returns to whomever called it. ie the boot code DOES NOT call the dog. Scott Turner -- L5 Computing, the home of Merlin, Arthur, Excalibur and the CRAM. GEnie: JST | UUCP: stride!l5comp!scotty | 12311 Maplewood Ave; Edmonds WA 98020 If Motorola had wanted us to use BPTR's they'd have built in shifts on A regs [ BCPL? Just say *NO*! ] (I don't smoke, send flames to /dev/null)
andy@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Andy Finkel) (05/26/87)
In article <917@killer.UUCP> elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) writes: >in article <1541@cadovax.UUCP>, keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) says: >> In article <1868@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> carolyn@cbmvax.UUCP (Carolyn Scheppner CATS) writes: >BY PERMISSION OF PARSEC RESEARCH*, by the way -- I called them when I found the >bad disk, and mentioned that my friend had it. (well, asking for permission puts it into a whole different ball game...) > >So what's the big deal? > >As a software author myself, and copyright holder on a couple of >semi-commercial programs, I am quite aware of problems of piracy etc. However, >I fail to see any problem here, since the only company making the Amiga is >Commodore, and thus the Workbench wouldn't do anybody else any good. Oops, I >forget. It WOULD be useful for programmers to be able to put the Workbench on >their disks.... oh dear, it's useful, how much can we rip.... err.... charge >them for it? (snicker snicker). If you're selling your program (not sharewaring it) there's no problem. There is an inexpensive Workbench license available. (and I'm sure we'll be able to work out the non-comercial stuff) A bit of friendly advice, from one programmer to another...Eric, don't you ever let one of your programs be involved in a royalty situation. You'd lose your shirt. :-) (think about it) Yes, lawyers, laws, and contracts can complicate our lives. But there are some issues here that need to be worked out. >Eric Green elg%usl.CSNET CS student, University of SW Louisiana andy finkel -- andy finkel {ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy Commodore/Amiga "An end is always a new beginning." - Captain Cloud Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share. I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
scotty@l5comp.UUCP (05/27/87)
I had an interesting thought this past weekend. "What if I wanted to build an Amiga clone? Where would I get the software?" 1. If it were ME I'd do the world a favor and REWRITE all this software that C-A is so careful to protect. 2. If my backers were in a real hurry though, I'd send 'em out to buy all the 1.2 Enhancer kits they could lay their mitts on. :) So what do we get from this policy of C-A's??? Scott Turner -- L5 Computing, the home of Merlin, Arthur, Excalibur and the CRAM. GEnie: JST | UUCP: stride!l5comp!scotty | 12311 Maplewood Ave; Edmonds WA 98020 If Motorola had wanted us to use BPTR's they'd have built in shifts on A regs [ BCPL? Just say *NO*! ] (I don't smoke, send flames to /dev/null)
elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) (05/28/87)
in article <1928@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP>, andy@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Andy Finkel) says: > In article <917@killer.UUCP> elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) writes: > If you're selling your program (not sharewaring it) there's no problem. > There is an inexpensive Workbench license available. > (and I'm sure we'll be able to work out the non-comercial stuff) Oh, I'm not concerned, since I'm not writing for the Amiga at the moment (nothing personal, you understand.... it's just that Amiga Creek is an aweful lot smaller than IBM Ocean). And I have no trouble with Fish Disks, since I have 3/4ths of a brain. It's just the idea of "them lawyers are at it again" that peeves me.... it seems like the entire legal profession is either a) trying to take everything away from you, or b) trying to make things harder on all your customers. Almost as bad as government -- but at least government usually just wants your money. > A bit of friendly advice, from one programmer to another...Eric, don't > you ever let one of your programs be involved in a royalty situation. > You'd lose your shirt. :-) > (think about it) I know what you mean. I talked to one kid who wrote a program for Megasoft, and he says that he recieved a whole $12 in royalties, and Megasoft said that they only sold 10 copies.... for a nationally-advertised program, that people had all over the place. Since Megasoft is/was a Canadian company, he had no recourse, alas (couldn't sue, since he's an American). In general, my philosophy is that a) If a price in a store isn't listed, I can't afford it, and b) if I can't read the contract's legalese, I can't afford it. Especially if it mentions things about "profits" -- I learned so many ways of evaporating profits in my Accounting classes, that it's a wonder that ANY American business makes a profit! > Yes, lawyers, laws, and contracts can complicate our lives. > But there are some issues here that need to be worked out. I can imagine. Like, "uh oh, blurbfoo is coming out with an Amiga clone, and they found a public domain disk with some of our copyrighted stuff on it". In which case, Commodore has no recourse but to sue the guy who illegally put Commodore stuff on a public domain disk, I guess. But this sure sounds like a jiffy-neato reason for putting one of those "licencing agreements" into effect (you know, the ones that disclaim your existence, pretend that you are being allowed to use the program temporarily via the generosity of Micro Sloth Corporation for the low low price of $600, and so forth). Something about licensed owners of the software being able to exchange it with other licencsed owners of the software (and assuming that while Imperial Bat Monsters may own an Amoeba, the people who buy Baby-A's from Imperial Bat Monsters won't be license owners of the software -- since buying an Amoeba is necessary to become a licensed owner). > andy finkel {ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy > Commodore/Amiga Ya know, none of this cr*p would be necessary if we all tried to live like human beings and quit trying to f*ck each other.... sigh.... it's enough to make a person ashamed of being a member of the same species. PS: Sorry for any flames, they were directed at lawyers for Commodore et. al., not at any of the Commodore technical staff, who do a fine job whenever their lawyers aren't dragging them over hot coals and flogging them with horse whips. -- Eric Green elg%usl.CSNET CS student, University of SW Louisiana {cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg Apprentice Haquer, Bayou Telecommunications Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 BBS phone #: 318-984-3854 300/1200 baud Lafayette, LA 70509 I disclaim my existence, and yours, too.
jcz@sas.UUCP (06/04/87)
In article <1903@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP>, carolyn@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Carolyn Scheppner CATS) writes: > I stand corrected. If a program doesn't use any disk resident devices or > libraries (including icon.library), doesn't use Execute(), doesn't use ram:, > doesn't need workbench or any cli commands, and never ever writes to a > disk, it can be booted off an Install'd disk which contains nothing else. > This configuration may be acceptable for some pd running demo type > applications. > Carolyn Scheppner -- CBM >>Amiga Technical Support<< Isn't the code put on the disk by INSTALL also copyrighted? This would flatly make any Bootable PD distribution a violation, unless you had a PD OS. -- --jcz John Carl Zeigler SAS Institute Inc. Cary, NC 27511 (919) 467-8000 ...!mcnc!rti-sel!sas!jcz