bad@ihwpt.ATT.COM (bill dwyer) (05/30/87)
Two of my associates and myself have been saving up over the last year to buy a home computer. We have not yet reached a decision on which computer to buy, but we have pretty much decided what we will be looking for in the pc. We beleive that our best options are either the new Atari MegaST or the new Amiga 2000. If you have suggestions as to what our best options would be, I would appreciate receiving email with your advice. Any ideas as to which pc if either sounds best, and what software/hardware is available and approximate prices would be greatly appreciated. I will then summarize the response and repost our decision. Thanks in advance for any help. The pc we buy will be the center of a small startup company which the three of us are starting. We would like to get all of the typical business type functions of a pc such as spreadsheets, database management, inventory control, word processing, etc. We will also definitely be wanting a hard disk, probably 20 Meg. We also will be using the pc as a test center for signal processing products. So we would like to be able to interface an outside product to the pc, and then use the pc to analyze and/or design the products. Thus we would like to be able to handle fairly large sized data files and be able to do number crunching in a relatively efficient manner. The main use of the graphics will be for CAD design work, and more importantly for the presentation and statistical analysis of signal processing data. So having a nice statistical package is another desirable feature. It would be very nice to be able to run background jobs while doing tasks such as file keeping or word processing. We tend to lean toward these new pcs because we would like the pc to be easily expandable so that it may be useful for years to come. Upward compatibility with a 68020 board is very nice, as may be the easy compatibility with IBM products. Another hardware item we will want is a good modem. Additional software/hardware systems we may want are speech and audio signal processing systems. These are all of the items I can think of at the moment. Performance is more of a consideration than cost, though we have a limited budget. (who doesn't!) We would rather build up our pc system slowly and use it for many years rather than buy something cheap that rapidly becomes obsolete. We are basically only mildly knowledgable about the latest in pcs. So any items that you can give me ideas on would be appreciated. Again thanks in advance for your help. -- Bill Dwyer AT&T Bell Laboratories ihnp4!ihwpt!bad Naperville, Ill.
elg@killer.UUCP (06/02/87)
in article <1711@ihwpt.ATT.COM>, bad@ihwpt.ATT.COM (bill dwyer) says: > The pc we buy will be the center of a small startup company which the three of > us are starting. We would like to get all of the typical business type functions > of a pc such as spreadsheets, database management, inventory control, word > processing, etc. You can probably get all of those programs for either the ST or the Amiga, but they're likely to be of lesser quality than equivalent MS-DOS programs (at least, for spreadsheets and database management -- I've seen good WP software for both ST and Amiga). SO I think IBM compatibility would be a real plus. Jack Tramiel has been saying "Real Soon Now" for quite some time about IBM compatibility for the ST line. So has Commodore, although Commodore has actually shipped some IBM compatibility boxes outside the U.S. so we know that at least their stuff exists, even if they're not selling it here for some odd reason. > We will also definitely be wanting a hard disk, probably 20 Meg. IBM-compatible drives are real cheap. I've seen ads selling 20 meg IBM drives for under $400. Drives for the ST are semi-expensive (probably about $650-$700 for a drive). Drives for the Amiga are expensive (around $899 or so), for a very slow hard drive (all ST and IBM drives are DMA drives, while the less expensive of the Amiga drives aren't). > We also will be using the pc as a test center for signal processing products. So > we would like to be able to interface an outside product to the pc, and then use > the pc to analyze and/or design the products. I think you may be biting off more than you can chew here. There is very little process control software for any consumer microcomputer, so you'd probably need to write your own. There is a little hardware out there for the IBM bus that I've seen in electronics mags that might be useful, but nobody has done anything equivalent for the ST or Amiga. >. The main use of the graphics will be for CAD design > work, The Amiga will do this. Probably the ST will, although I don't know a package off-hand. So will the IBM PC with EGA or better graphics card. > So having a nice statistical package is another > desirable feature. I know of no such package for either the ST or Amiga. There's several for the IBM PC and clones, though. But the interface probably is reminiscent of punched-card days :-). > It would be very nice to be able to run background jobs > while doing tasks such as file keeping or word processing. Only one in the bunch that'll do it stock out of the box is the Amiga. You can buy Microport Unix for the IBM AT and run a single MS-DOS program while doing the rest of your stuff under Unix, but I'm unsure about the level of compatibility that would provide. Depends on whether your applications re well-behaved. You also have Double-DOS-like programs for both the ST and IBM-compat computers, but that really doesn't qualify as multitasking, since many programs don't respect the set limits. > We tend to lean toward > these new pcs because we would like the pc to be easily expandable so that it may > be useful for years to come. Upward compatibility with a 68020 board is very > nice, as may be the easy compatibility with IBM products. Another hardware item > we will want is a good modem. Additional software/hardware systems we may want > are speech and audio signal processing systems. Hmm. Well, here's my prognistication: Your main choice is probably between the IBM AT with a hefty hard drive and possibly Microport Unix if your applications are well-behaved and will run as the single MS-DOS process provided under Microport, or the (currently Real Soon Now) Amiga A-2000. If you chose the A-2000, many of your tasks would need to run on the IBM side of the machine, unless you were into serious hardware and software hacking (which I guess you're not, since you want to do a job, not play with the computer all day). The ST is probably out of it because it has about the same level of sophistication as an AT-clone, but with a hard drive costs the same and is slower and doesn't have an expansion bus for your data collection hardware to live on and doesn't have the hardware or software anyhow. I'll probably be screamed at by both Amiga and ST people, but I'd really have to recommend the AT. Unless you're a hardware and software hacker, you'd have trouble doing everything you wanted on the ST or the Amiga side of the A-2000, and why buy an A-2000 just for its IBM compatible side? If you think you can expand further with the A-2000 because of its graphics capability and ability to upgrade to a 68020, well, gopherit, but it really doesn't look like the most cost-effective solution AT THIS TIME (maybe sometime in the future, after the machine actually is being SOLD and has something to fill in the slots with, you might have something to look at). I guess it really just depends on how long you intend to keep the computer... the A-2000 is likely to be around long after the AT is obsolete, but it'll also cost a heckuva lot in the meantime, as you first buy your applications for the IBM side, and then upgrade them to the Amiga side as Amiga equivalents become available. After all, an AT clone costs barely more than an Amiga hard drive :-). -- Eric Green elg%usl.CSNET CS student, University of SW Louisiana {cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg Apprentice Haquer, Bayou Telecommunications Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 BBS phone #: 318-984-3854 300/1200 baud Lafayette, LA 70509 I disclaim my existence, and yours, too.
trb@stag.UUCP (06/07/87)
<flame on...to a prior Re:> I am really tired of seeing an 'analysis comparison' of the three machines (ibm, st, amiga) by someone who obviously hasn't used any of them extensively...what a waste of time. <flame off> Just to answer a few misunderstandings: There are both IEEE expansion boxes and HP/IB expansion cages available for the ST. We have a local distributor for a german company (in Mnpls, MN!) who develops control system software/hardware for the ST. I have also seen an ST tied into Ethernet at ETA, and at least one ST that I know of has 4 RS232 ports allowing multiple logins under the Multi-Tasking C-Shell (Beckmeyers'). I will try to get more info at our next ST developers' meeting if anyone is interested. Also, it is quite easy to add inexpensive hard drives to the ST, it just costs a bit more because you need to add a case and a SCSI adapter...Figure on paying about $150 more if you just buy bare drives and cases than if you bought an external drive for a PC...$200-$300 more if you buy a pre-packaged drive from Supra. One nice thing about the ST is that if you get a 3.5 inch Supra 20, you will have a very quiet setup (no fans at all)...great for an office environment. In the area of CAD, there are several packages for the ST. First Cad is my favorite 'drafting' type package...I have used it for quick schematics and Logic block diagram drawings. There are probably better ones, but I am a cheapskate (First Cad is $49.95 retail). Also, the new CAD 3D 2.0 is pretty nice for simple 3D visualization...it is incredible when used with the Tektronic 3D glasses (I have actually used one at last...but hear that the order backlog is >3 months). I wouldn't do anything very large with CAD 3D, however (i.e. no building design). I have heard rumors that some of the $500-$5000 cad packages for the PC have been ported to the ST, but I haven't seen any yet. In the area of word processors, I still haven't seen anything 'great' out yet for the ST. I revert to Final Word for large manuals and First Word (or Publishing Partner) for small stuff. On the other hand, there are more good database progs (relational, graphics based, spreadsheet, etc) than I care to think about for the ST, so I don't (I wrote a simple database program once on the 8 bit Atari and it was all I have ever needed for my own database work.) -Todd Burkey ...ihnp4!meccts!stag!trb
hadeishi@husc4.UUCP (06/08/87)
In article <955@killer.UUCP> elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) writes: >in article <1711@ihwpt.ATT.COM>, bad@ihwpt.ATT.COM (bill dwyer) says: >> The pc we buy will be the center of a small startup company which the three of >> us are starting. We would like to get all of the typical business type functions >> of a pc such as spreadsheets, database management, inventory control, word >> processing, etc. >Jack Tramiel has been saying "Real Soon Now" for quite some time about IBM >compatibility for the ST line. So has Commodore . . . You'll probably want an IBM for spreadsheets, etc. You might consider getting a dedicated IBM clone for those functions and separating the CAD stuff on another machine (Amiga or AT). However, the A2000 IBM compatibility certainly exists; the card is real, it works, it's been demoed, it is as fast as a PC, it runs color graphics, and it multitasks with Amiga tasks. The PC AT card is in design and a prototype was shown at a show (though not demoed as far as I know). And of course you can get IBM cards for the A2000 such as multifunction boards, hard disk cards, instrument control and data acquisition boards, and so forth. There is the capability for communications between the IBM and Amiga side, and file transfer will be available. Even coprocessor support is possible; the Amiga, for example, can use the IBM's 8087 for floating point acceleration. The A2000 isn't in the US yet pending FCC modifications (arrgh) but it has been sold in Europe. >> We also will be using the pc as a test center for signal processing products. So >> we would like to be able to interface an outside product to the pc, and then use >> the pc to analyze and/or design the products. > I think you may be biting off more than you can chew here. There is very >little process control software for any consumer microcomputer, so you'd >probably need to write your own. There is a little hardware out there for the >IBM bus that I've seen in electronics mags that might be useful, but nobody >has done anything equivalent for the ST or Amiga. Process control software should be easy to write given a good C compiler on the Amiga. The Amiga also has the advantage of a multitasking environment which is easy to utilize and program for and may have some use for signal processing, data acquisition and so forth. For example, it is easy to write an interrupt handler for the Amiga and have it communicate with the host task; the code can all be done in C with standard system calls. >>. The main use of the graphics will be for CAD design >> work, > The Amiga will do this. Probably the ST will, although I don't know a >package off-hand. So will the IBM PC with EGA or better graphics card. Specifically, PCLO for the Amiga, a PC design CAD package (rather expensive, but apparently quite capable.) >> So having a nice statistical package is another >> desirable feature. > I know of no such package for either the ST or Amiga. There's several for the >IBM PC and clones, though. But the interface probably is reminiscent of >punched-card days :-). Statistical packages written in F77 and VAX Fortran, etc. abound, and the Amiga has an EXCELLENT F77 (with F8? extensions) compiler which is fast, bug-free, and produces fast, high-quality code. The compiler is available from AbSoft. Any stat package written in F77 or a more advanced dialect (like VAX Fortran) will compile and run with no problem on an Amiga; also AbSoft supports the 68020 and 68881 for even faster results (far surpassing the VAX for data processing speed.) A 68020/68881 board exists now for the A2000; C-A is planning one with an MMU (far future) that may run UNIX (far future). Standard stat libraries written in F77 can be linked with your own user interface or your own signal processing output. >> It would be very nice to be able to run background jobs >> while doing tasks such as file keeping or word processing. > Only one in the bunch that'll do it stock out of the box is the Amiga. >[ talks about Microport for IBM and refers to multitasking shell for ST ] This is not an article about the ST, but there is a multitasking shell for the ST (which doesn't run all ST software, but it does run that software which conforms to the shell's rules). If you got an A2000 with a Bridge card, you could run word processing on the IBM side (Word Perfect) and run statistics on the Amiga side, or run word processing on the Amiga side (Word Perfect) and run statistics on the IBM side. Depends on where you want to spend your money. I'd spend it on statistics on the Amiga side if you had a 68020 card (faster) or on the IBM side if you had an 8087 (faster, more off-the-shelf stat software (with horrible user interfaces)). >> We tend to lean toward >> these new pcs because we would like the pc to be easily expandable so that it may >> be useful for years to come. Upward compatibility with a 68020 board is very >> nice, as may be the easy compatibility with IBM products. Another hardware item >> we will want is a good modem. Additional software/hardware systems we may want >> are speech and audio signal processing systems. >Your main choice is probably between the IBM AT with a hefty hard drive and >possibly Microport Unix if your applications are well-behaved and will run as >the single MS-DOS process provided under Microport, or the (currently Real >Soon Now) Amiga A-2000. If you chose the A-2000, many of your tasks would need >to run on the IBM side of the machine, unless you were into serious hardware >and software hacking (which I guess you're not, since you want to do a job, >not play with the computer all day). The current IBM line will become obsolete in time, replaced by the PC/2 line (slowly). If you want expandability, you either have to pay through the nose for a high-end PC/2 system (with no software yet to take advantage of all the hardware) or get an Amiga 2000 which has some hardware NOW, and lots more to come (mostly from manufacturers like Perry Kivolowitz and the wizards at ASDG and others). 68020/68881 is available NOW for the Amiga line. If you want immediate functionality an IBM AT might do it for you, but recall that ATs are great as far as existing software/hardware, but you'll probably have to rely on existing software/hardware. The Amiga would require more work initially, but you would probably get a system that better suited your needs in the long run, with the IBM compatibility (even AT compatibility) still available. Software development is, basically, much easier on the Amiga, and you'll find writing software to handle real-time stuff is also much easier and less problematic than on an AT (even with Unix, which is notorious for having a bad scheme for handling interrupts and signals, not to mention intertask communications.) With the A2000 such possibilities as running Microport Unix or 286 OS/2 on the AT bridge card with the 68020/68881 on the Amiga side doing CAD/CAM or number crunching are possible; now THAT's expansion capability. Basically, the Amiga OS is better suited to custom applications and much better suited for future expansion than either Messy DOS or Unix. For example, as was noted on the net a couple days ago, the Amiga can be networked over Ethernet with other NFS (Network File Server) machines and an NFS server (i.e., networked with Suns, etc.) with no trouble at all; I mean, after reading about all of the nightmares of networking in the IBM clone magazines, that's a feat in itself. Apparently this is done easily by adding a couple modules to the Amiga OS; adding NFS to Unix, however, is possible, but as was commented, "Sun says NFS is a drop-in. That may be true, but it makes a big splash." My recommendation would be to go with the A2000. It basically has the flexibility, functionality, and expandability you need, and it certainly fits you product description better than any other machine out there, for less money than any other machine out there. There aren't too many customers out there who would benefit from an Amiga more. -Mitsu
peter@sugar.UUCP (06/10/87)
> > We also will be using the pc as a test center for signal processing products. So > I think you may be biting off more than you can chew here. There is very > little process control software for any consumer microcomputer, so you'd On the other hand the Amiga EXEC is a real-time type O/S with fixed priority tasks and the ability to easily add special purpose handlers, so it would probably be easier to write a process control type program for the Amiga.