rminnich@udel.EDU (Ron Minnich) (07/03/87)
I have already had one (very polite) letter from someone at Apple telling me why no one really cares about NFS, NFS users are a drop in the bucket, etc. Then i see this on comp.sys.appletalk: In article <1521@botter.cs.vu.nl> jim@cs.vu.nl (Jim van Keulen) writes: >We have a UNIX environment (SUNS's, VAX'es) here with Ethernet (TCP/IP). >We also have MacIntoshes and AppleTalk, so questions arise >about connecting these systems. >More specifically: "Can UNIX machines and MacIntoshes communicate, >can UNIX machines be used as file servers for MacIntoshes". >What (public domain) software is available and how can get it. Once again: Amiga does this now, has been doing it for a while, and it works. I sure hope Commodore is going to pick up on this! It is just as important as slick graphics to my way of thinking- that is, if C= is really serious about selling to Nasa (who use suns) and 'real world' companies. How about a cheap ether board like the ones we hear rumors about for PCs? Also note that there are now appletalk/ether gateways (a friend of mine built one here at udel). Amigas can talk appletalk! ron P.S. BTW, note also that not just Amiga fans read this list! -- Ron Minnich
hadeishi@husc4.HARVARD.EDU (mitsuharu hadeishi) (07/03/87)
In article <312@louie.udel.EDU> rminnich@udel.EDU (Ron Minnich) writes: . . . > Then i see this on comp.sys.appletalk: >In article <1521@botter.cs.vu.nl> jim@cs.vu.nl (Jim van Keulen) writes: >>We have a UNIX environment (SUNS's, VAX'es) here with Ethernet (TCP/IP). >>We also have MacIntoshes and AppleTalk, so questions arise >>about connecting these systems. >>More specifically: "Can UNIX machines and MacIntoshes communicate, >>can UNIX machines be used as file servers for MacIntoshes". >>What (public domain) software is available and how can get it. > > Once again: Amiga does this now, has been doing it for a while, >and it works. I sure hope Commodore is going to pick up on this! >It is just as important as slick graphics to my way of thinking- that >is, if C= is really serious about selling to Nasa (who use suns) >and 'real world' companies. . . . Yes, exactly. Much has been made of the fact that the new IBM PS computers are designed to network more effectively, how the DEC VAXen network better than the IBM minis, how this is a big competitive advantage for DEC, and so forth. The fact that the Amiga runs NFS transparently and without any problems (augmented by the fact that the Amiga filesystem is very UNIX-like and the Amiga, being multitasking, has an advantage over IBM NFS implementations) should be a big marketing advantage particularly to the mid-size high-tech companies who don't care as much about name brand as performance and flexibility. The fact that the Amiga networks as well as the VAXen do, with a multitasking environment to support it properly (background data transfers and so forth), should really be a big marketing tool. Just having articles in the trade journals about the Amiga's networking capabilities should be a boost for the machine's prestige even if it doesn't mean much to many users. -Mitsu
rick@sbcs.UUCP (Rick Spanbauer) (07/04/87)
> and 'real world' companies. How about a cheap ether board like > the ones we hear rumors about for PCs? Depends on what you call cheap - the Ameristar Ethernet board costs around $699 for the A2000. Note that what you are actually interested in is SYSTEM cost: Sun PC-NFS software ~$350 3Com ethernet card $545 (when purchased in Feb '86) ----- ~$900 I also recall seeing a blurb stating that the MAC-II Ethernet card is about $800 with no software. Compare the above with the Ameristar NFS package (for the A2000): Board + software: $800 Of course, all of the above figures neglect the cost of connection, which ranges from a few bucks for cheapernet to a few hundred bucks for a xcvr + xcvr drop cable + tech time to insert xcvr in thick ethernet. The current price of the Amiga ethernet card is driven primarily by the cost of the Lance chipset (> $100 as of this writing) and voltage inverter (~$20) required for DC isolation in cheapernet. If the Lance chipset ever sees plastic (and therefore comes down in price), you may see the the Ameristar board drop in price a bit. The other reason why Amiga ethernet boards cost more is the same reason Amiga memory boards, disk controllers, etc all cost more: lack of volume. At last count, the installed base of PC's was up somewhere in the millions of systems - compared to a few hundred thousand units for the Amiga. Any PCB is going to cost more if you're producing only 10's of pieces at a time. Ameristar is trying to offset the hardware price differences by pricing their software as low as possible to keep overall system costs in line with comparable IBM PC systems solutions. The reasoning is that if they present Amiga systems solutions that cost roughly the same as IBM PC based solutions, AND provide greater functionality, this will win sales with folks who have the option to run on either platform. This in turn will drive up volume, and drive down costs. Rick Spanbauer PS. I'm not neutral w.r.t. Ameristar - I designed the Ethernet card..
lsr@apple.UUCP (Larry Rosenstein) (07/07/87)
In article <312@louie.udel.EDU> rminnich@udel.EDU (Ron Minnich) writes: >I have already had one (very polite) letter from someone at >Apple telling me why no one really cares about NFS, NFS >users are a drop in the bucket, etc. > > Then i see this on comp.sys.appletalk: >In article <1521@botter.cs.vu.nl> jim@cs.vu.nl (Jim van Keulen) writes: >>We have a UNIX environment (SUNS's, VAX'es) here with Ethernet (TCP/IP). >>We also have MacIntoshes and AppleTalk, so questions arise >>about connecting these systems. >... > Once again: Amiga does this now, has been doing it for a while, I was the person mentioned above. I don't disagree with the importance of connectivity. If you want your machine to integrate into a university or large business environment (for example) then you have to support connectivity. I still feel, however, that the vast majority of users (and potential users) don't have Suns or VAXes around. Also, previous messages in this thread have implied that the Macintosh cannot do this, which is totally false. There have been AppleTalk/Ethernet gateways for a while, and there are several TCP/IP implementations for the Mac. (We use these products here at Apple; I can log onto our VAXes and Cray over AppleTalk.) >P.S. BTW, note also that not just Amiga fans read this list! I always like to keep tabs on the competition (:-). I'm sure that there are Amiga fans who read comp.sys.mac. -- Larry Rosenstein Object Specialist Apple Computer AppleLink: Rosenstein1 UUCP: {sun, voder, nsc, mtxinu, dual}!apple!lsr CSNET: lsr@Apple.com
rminnich@udel.UUCP (07/07/87)
Still talking about ethernet ... In article <1274@apple.UUCP> lsr@apple.UUCP (Larry Rosenstein) writes: >Also, previous messages in this thread have implied that the Macintosh >cannot do this, which is totally false. There have been AppleTalk/Ethernet >gateways for a while, and there are several TCP/IP implementations for the >Mac. (We use these products here at Apple; I can log onto our VAXes and >Cray over AppleTalk.) I guess i was not clear enough. After all, we have an Appltalk/ether gateway here (home brew), and building it was impressively straightforward- which i guess says good things about appletalk. But Macs still do not do NFS yet, and may not for a while; this represents a competitive advantage for the amiga. And yes, i know TCP/IP for the MAC has been here for a while. Can i run ftp, telnet, rlogin, at the same time on the MAC? I have not seen that yet, because it does not multi-task. Someone here told me he would no run UW on the mac, as then it could not do anything else. On the Amiga, i can run UW and Dpaint side-by-side. I will soon be able to run dpaint and have output on a laser printer somewhere on our ethernet, all while reading mail on two or three vaxes. nice. I think the NFS world is going to explode, once people begin to realize just how nice it is. And given that NFS is a standard, i think a company that supports nfs, rather than Yet Another Private Standard, is going to come out ahead. I have no intention of buying Amiga Tex for $350; it makes a lot more sense to just go get the NFS card, since i do not have room for all the fonts i use (would need to get a hard disk too). Also, imagine 50 amigas all with Amiga Tex, and how much fun it would be to update all those programs. NFS eliminates this problem completely. ron -- Ron Minnich
rokicki@rocky.STANFORD.EDU (Tomas Rokicki) (07/08/87)
Just correcting some bad information posted. AmigaTeX is $200 for TeX, LaTeX, BibTeX, IniTeX, Previewer, some other utilities, samples, and five floppies of fonts. That's eight floppies total. Individual printer drivers are $100 apiece, and (usually) come with their own set of fonts, typically three to seven additional floppies. Try and find a comparably priced TeX/previewer/driver combination for any other microcomputer. And you don't put the entire distribution on your hard disk (or floppies.) A caching scheme has been implemented which allows AmigaTeX to run very comfortably on two floppies, which includes plenty of space for 300 dpi fonts for your laser, 100 dpi fonts for the preview, and a relatively large workspace. NFS is great, but most people don't have access to it, especially at home. And, even with NFS, you still want to preview on the Amiga.
gray@labc.dec.com.UUCP (07/09/87)
Pehaps one of the individuals who have had the opportunity to
use the Amiga NFS package from Ameristar could describe the
implementation details specific to the Amiga.
Specifically, it would be of interest to hear how the NFS
remotely mounted filesystems are (1) managed and (2) accessed
via the Amiga Workbench interface. Also, given that the
current advertisments from Ameristar indicate that their
product now runs in the Amiga 2000; what kind of support
is already present in NFS for a M68020 CPU upgrade (into
the 86-pin co-processor slot on the A2000 or the Turbo
Amiga upgrade for the A1000.) What is the effective
throughput of their Ethernet interface? In other words,
how effective is the Amiga Workbench/NFS environment for
performing high-level (user transparent) distributed
processing?
Note that a recent issue of Mac World (May, 1987 or June, 1987)
indicated that Apple has announced it is licensing NFS from
SUN for the MacIntosh II! If my memory serves me, I believe
it is to run under AEX, the new Apple Unix System V.2 port
for the Mac II.
What I would like to see is an Icon interface to NFS (the AEX
system is not icon-based) in a low-end workstation (<SUN).
It is a networking system that has this kind of capability
that would prove itself in the "business PC market."
I think it is clear that the A2000 with M68020 native processor
(upgrade) and an i286 (or even i386) based coprocessor can
provide a powerfull system processing environment. Harnessed
with Workbench, this power can be effectively delivered to
the lucrative business-market. With the addition of a good
industry-standard fast and efficient networking system, with
functionality superior to the token-ring environment, I believe
the A2000 could be a serious contender in the PS/2, Mac II,
386-clone market-place.
-Thomas C. Gray
uucp: labc.dec.com!gray
ARPA: gray@LABC.DEC.COM
ENET: LABC::GRAY
[ The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect
those of Digital Equipment Corporation. ]
rminnich@udel.UUCP (07/09/87)
For $200, this begins to sound good. Note that it really is $300
if you want to drive a printer at your house and you do not have a
driver for your printer available.
So, some questions:
1) Do these TeX's produce .dvi files just like standard tex?
(i.e. not 'improved'). If so, we can use the dvi2ps program
(which i think was posted not long ago, we have it here)
to drive a Laser Writer, or the dviqms program we have here to
drive the qms 800s.
2) When you say you run on a 2-drive system, is that with .5Mb
or do you need more ram?
3) What is the largest document you have produced? Can i run
off a 60-page chapter, for example? What resource is consumed
fastest, disk or RAM? Are those disks so full of fonts and
such that my .tex files have to be really small?
I am really tempted by the $200 price; the earlier price of $350
was just too high. Also, i think if i could show people around
here AmigaTex, with previewer, and then tell them they could
build such a system for under $2000, that they would be sold.
ron
--
Ron Minnich