root@sbcs.UUCP (Root) (07/16/87)
I have a port of Suns NeWS window system up and running on the Amiga. For
now, all that is running solidly is the server (and one or two of their
utilities). The code has been integrated with Ameristar network stuff, and
one can run demos, etc off the Sun and watch the stuff go on the Amiga
screen.
Much to Suns credit (thanks guys!), the port was fairly easy to do as most
of the OS specific code was isolated in ~3 files. The version I have
working uses the Sun supplied Pixrect drivers - I'm working on a native
version which uses the Amiga graphics library + blitter. The toughest part
of the port was isolating all the implicit violations of the stdio library
that were made throughout the NeWS code - close second was finding a "feature"
that they implemented in an attempt to save a few kBytes of core (went like
this: if(namep < &edata) then {name is in the data segment, don't
bother to allocate memory for buffer} - of course the Amiga has no notion
of Unix like heap memory allocation, so their assumption failed). To date,
I've worked almost a week on the port.
I'm not really interested in debating the religious issues of X -vs- NeWS
(as I use both window systems frequently), but I will say that NeWS' ability
to be programmed in PostScript (and from shell scripts, no less!) opens up some
fascinating possibilities for rapidly prototyping applications without
having to resort to C, Pascal, etc. I also find their termcap programmable
terminal emulator (psterm) quite novel in that to emulate almost any character
terminal, all one has to do is write an /etc/termcap entry. Neat idea.
The only downside to NeWS that I've found so far is that the server is
quite HUGE (~270K text + 50K data/bss) - so if you haven't purchased
extra memory yet, you're dead.
As for distributing AmigaNeWS, I've been told by Sun that I cannot distribute
it under any circumstances - before you go bashing them, though, remember
that they've had quite a few folks working for YEARS on NeWS, and believe it
or not, they would like to recoup their investment. Can't say I blame them.
Anyways, I hope to get them a copy of the reference port of NeWS so at the
very least they can distribute it to other source licensees.
Rick Spanbauer
SUNY/Stony Brook
PS. NeWS is probably a trademark of Sun Microsystems, Inc.mjp@spice.cs.cmu.edu (Michael Portuesi) (07/18/87)
Keywords: > I'm not really interested in debating the religious issues of X -vs- NeWS [...] > As for distributing AmigaNeWS, I've been told by Sun that I cannot distribute > it under any circumstances - before you go bashing them, though, remember > that they've had quite a few folks working for YEARS on NeWS, and believe it > or not, they would like to recoup their investment. Can't say I blame them. > Anyways, I hope to get them a copy of the reference port of NeWS so at the > very least they can distribute it to other source licensees. > > Rick Spanbauer > SUNY/Stony Brook If Sun wants to recoup their investment, and if they *really* want NeWS to be a standard instead of X, then they would allow people to distribute ports of NeWS, instead of engaging in "software terrorism" as they seem to be doing. X has one very, very big advantage over NeWS; it's freely redistributable. --M-- Mike Portuesi / Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Department ARPA: mjp@spice.cs.cmu.edu UUCP: {backbone-site}!spice.cs.cmu.edu!mjp BITNET: rainwalker@drycas (a uVax-1 run by CMU Computer Club...tons o' fun) "Paradise is exactly like where you are right now...only much, much better" --Laurie Anderson, "Lanugage is a Virus"
ralph@mit-atrp.UUCP (Amiga-Man) (07/18/87)
In article <478@sbcs.UUCP> root@sbcs.UUCP (Root) writes: >I have a port of Suns NeWS window system up and running on the Amiga. For ... >As for distributing AmigaNeWS, I've been told by Sun that I cannot distribute >it under any circumstances - before you go bashing them, though, remember >that they've had quite a few folks working for YEARS on NeWS, and believe it >or not, they would like to recoup their investment. Can't say I blame them. ... > Rick Spanbauer > SUNY/Stony Brook Gee, isn't it a shame. Now here's something that could potentially be really useful to many sun users and amiga users, particularly in academic environments. But...sorry folks. It's too bad that SUN doesn't view this as a way to increase sales of suns...and hence put the Amiga end of it in the public domain. It a shame when compu-corps need to kill useful things in efforts to make sure they make the most profit. I guess since they aren't public service entities they shouldn't be bound to be helpful. Rick, too bad since YOU wrote the Amiga end YOU can't distribute it as you like. Anyone who needs the SUN end will already have a sun somewhere and can get it though their sun license. Then, at any academic place(or commercial) for that matter, they can buy a bunch of Amiga's and used them running of the SUN's that are around. Then again, maybe I'm confused about all this.....
kagle@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Jonathan C. Kagle) (07/19/87)
In article <1386@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU> ralph@ATRP.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Amiga-Man) writes: !In article <478@sbcs.UUCP> root@sbcs.UUCP (Root) writes: !>I have a port of Suns NeWS window system up and running on the Amiga. For !... !>As for distributing AmigaNeWS, I've been told by Sun that I cannot distribute !>it under any circumstances - before you go bashing them, though, remember !>that they've had quite a few folks working for YEARS on NeWS, and believe it !>or not, they would like to recoup their investment. Can't say I blame them. !... !> Rick Spanbauer !> SUNY/Stony Brook ! !Gee, isn't it a shame. Now here's something that could potentially be !really useful to many sun users and amiga users, particularly in academic !environments. But...sorry folks. It's too bad that SUN doesn't view this !as a way to increase sales of suns...and hence put the Amiga end of it !in the public domain. It a shame when compu-corps need to kill useful things !in efforts to make sure they make the most profit. I guess since they !aren't public service entities they shouldn't be bound to be helpful. !Rick, too bad since YOU wrote the Amiga end YOU can't distribute it as you !like. Anyone who needs the SUN end will already have a sun somewhere and !can get it though their sun license. Then, at any academic place(or commercial) !for that matter, they can buy a bunch of Amiga's and used them running of !the SUN's that are around. I may be way off base, but wouldn't it be possible to distribute massive DIFF files for the sources code to NEWS? Assuming the DIFFs wouldn't be considered to contain any copyrighted SUN code, it _should_ be legal. If David Small could hack through the MAC ROMs to make the Magic Sac without Apple's vulture lawyers suing him, almost anything is possible. Unfortunately, SUN may be guarding against 68020 machines like the MAC II and expanded Amigas, so they may be less than willing to see their software run on a "mere" A1000. -Jonathan C. Kagle _______________________________________________________________________________ -- Jonathan C. Kagle Cornell Theory Center kagle@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu/kagle@crnlthry/!decvax!cornell!batcomputer!kagle "Union Carbide is proud to be the official supplier of tear gas for the 1988 Summer Olympic Games"
ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo L. Schwab) (07/19/87)
In article <1386@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU> ralph@ATRP.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Amiga-Man) writes: >In article <478@sbcs.UUCP> root@sbcs.UUCP (Root) writes: >>I have a port of Suns NeWS window system up and running on the Amiga. For >... >>As for distributing AmigaNeWS, I've been told by Sun that I cannot distribute >>it under any circumstances - before you go bashing them, though, remember >>that they've had quite a few folks working for YEARS on NeWS, and believe it >>or not, they would like to recoup their investment. Can't say I blame them. > >Gee, isn't it a shame. Now here's something that could potentially be >really useful to many sun users and amiga users, particularly in academic >environments. But...sorry folks. It's too bad that SUN doesn't view this >as a way to increase sales of suns...and hence put the Amiga end of it >in the public domain. [ ... ] Now, before everyone starts bashing SUN over the head and accusing them of being a**holes for not releasing NeWS, consider the following hypothetical scneario: An institution (doesn't matter what kind) wants a LAN. By some miracle, they get an array of Amigas with Ameristar Ethernet boards running NFS. Then someone drops NeWS on the machines, and Voila! Everyone's speaking PostScript (the merits of which are another flame entirely). Note that there is not a single SUN hardware product in sight, and SUN sees no financial return for this scenario. Somehow, this doesn't seem fair to SUN, or the people who wrote NeWS. I think the optimal solution would be for SUN to sell the Amiga version of NeWS, or license someone to sell it, with a return to SUN. After all, they wrote the bloody thing; they're entitled to *something*. All we can hope for is that they don't change SUN prices for it. So, try not to bash SUN too hard. They don't deserve it nearly as much as EA :-) :-) :-) :-) :-). _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape ihnp4!ptsfa -\ \_ -_ Bike shrunk by popular demand, dual ---> !{well,unicom}!ewhac O----^o But it's still the only way to fly. hplabs / (pronounced "AE-wack") "Work FOR? I don't work FOR anybody! I'm just having fun." -- The Doctor
kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) (07/20/87)
Rick, Even if you can't distribute NeWS, YOU wrote the changes, so you should have no problems distributing the diff's between your file and the original. The context should be covered under the copyright "fair use" provision, and Sun should be ecstatic, because to make use of your stuff, the potential user has to license the originals from Sun. This leaves the world's biggest maintenance headache, each time Sun issues a change to NeWS, but systems administrators get used to dealing with this kind of cruft all the time as it is. Comments? Kent, the man from xanth.
farren@hoptoad.uucp (Mike Farren) (07/20/87)
In article <3577@well.UUCP> ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes: > I think the optimal solution would be for SUN to sell the Amiga >version of NeWS, or license someone to sell it, with a return to SUN. >After all, they wrote the bloody thing; they're entitled to *something*. >All we can hope for is that they don't change SUN prices for it. Why not? Sun only charges $100 for the binary of NeWS, seems pretty reasonable to me - of course, source, as seems to be usual for Unix, is EXPENSIVE. I'd like to see Sun say "Sure. You can distribute it, but binaries only, and we want to see a $100 licensing fee for each copy, please." Sounds pretty fair to me - we get NeWS for $100 + whatever the porter sees fit to charge for his profit, Sun gets $100 per copy, as usual, and everyone wins... -- ---------------- "... if the church put in half the time on covetousness Mike Farren that it does on lust, this would be a better world ..." hoptoad!farren Garrison Keillor, "Lake Wobegon Days"
miner@dino.cpe.ulowell.edu (Rich Miner) (07/20/87)
In article <478@sbcs.UUCP> root@sbcs.UUCP (Root) writes: >I have a port of Suns NeWS window system up and running on the Amiga. ... >... The code has been integrated with Ameristar network stuff, and > >The only downside to NeWS that I've found so far is that the server is >quite HUGE (~270K text + 50K data/bss) - Won't the size get _much_ smaller as you include the direct calls to the to the Amigas graphics libray? >As for distributing AmigaNeWS, I've been told by Sun that I cannot distribute >it under any circumstances - before you go bashing them, though, remember Can't you license the system from Sun and then sell the Amiga version to all of us networked Amiga people? I would think your plans would be to have Ameristar market it as a real product. I would prefer this; then we get a supported system, not just the diffs to make to our NeWs sources or some similar kludge. >PS. NeWS is probably a trademark of Sun Microsystems, Inc.-- Rich Miner|miner@dino.cpe.ulowell.edu|Cntr Prod Enhancement|617-452-5000x2693
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (07/20/87)
For reasons that should seem patently obvious to anyone I can't make any sweeping statements about NeWS on the Amiga. I can say that some people do not think ahead to far before they say something. Which can be a bad thing if it causes more problems than it solves, smoke aside I can address one of Leo's statements : In article <3577@well.UUCP> ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes: > I think the optimal solution would be for SUN to sell the Amiga >version of NeWS, or license someone to sell it, with a return to SUN. >After all, they wrote the bloody thing; they're entitled to *something*. >All we can hope for is that they don't change SUN prices for it. Sun sells the NeWS binary tape for Sun 3's for $100, what did you pay for Dpaint? --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
klm@munsell.UUCP (Kevin McBride) (07/22/87)
In article <3577@well.UUCP> ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes: > I think the optimal solution would be for SUN to sell the Amiga >version of NeWS, or license someone to sell it, with a return to SUN. >After all, they wrote the bloody thing; they're entitled to *something*. >All we can hope for is that they don't change SUN prices for it. OK, here's my $.02 worth. I tend to agree with Leo and Chuck. Let Sun license the Amiga port of NeWS to somebody... Ameristar would seem to be a good candidate as they are already supporting network stuff on the Amiga. Then those people who want NeWS can get it from somebody who will presumably support it, Sun gets the piece of the action that they're entitled to and everybody is happy (hopefully!) Sun, Ameristar, are you guys listening? (hint hint) -- Kevin McBride |Disclaimer: These | harvard -\ Eikonix - A Kodak Co. | opinions are mine, | ll-xn ---adelie-----> munsell!klm 23 Crosby Dr. | not my employer's, | decvax -v talcott -v | Bedford, MA 01730 | So There! | allegra ------------encore
ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) (07/22/87)
In article <23815@sun.uucp> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: >smoke aside I can address one of Leo's statements : > >In article <3577@well.UUCP> ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes: >>All we can hope for is that they don't change SUN prices for it. > >Sun sells the NeWS binary tape for Sun 3's for $100, what did you pay for >Dpaint? > Ooops! I didn't know it was this reasonable. I seem to have this mindset that anything associated with UNIX has to be over-priced. I didn't pay anything for DPaint. Dan Silva gave me a copy for free. Mind you, it's a b*tch to load. See, I have to rewind this SUN tape cartridge every time, and..... Never mind. :-) :-) :-) _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape ihnp4!ptsfa -\ \_ -_ Bike shrunk by popular demand, dual ---> !{well,unicom}!ewhac O----^o But it's still the only way to fly. hplabs / (pronounced "AE-wack") "Work FOR? I don't work FOR anybody! I'm just having fun." -- The Doctor
scotty@l5comp.UUCP (Scott Turner) (07/25/87)
In article <3599@well.UUCP> ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes: >In article <23815@sun.uucp> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: >>Sun sells the NeWS binary tape for Sun 3's for $100, what did you pay for >>Dpaint? >> > Ooops! I didn't know it was this reasonable. I seem to have this >mindset that anything associated with UNIX has to be over-priced. Leo, he says it's $100 "for Suns"... This brings a few questions to my mind: 1. Can I buy News from Sun on a cartridge for $100 if I don't intend to use it on a Sun 3??? ie do I need a Sun 3 serial #? 2. Is $100 the single copy price or is that a quantity/dealer price? 3. Is the binary complete or do I need to have NFS etc as well? 4. And you're right Leo, just about everything is overpriced for un*x. Mainly because noone believes that only one person will be using software at a site since a un*x machine is inherently multi-user. But if news is only $100 how much are the manuals? :) If un*x software is expensive you should see what everyone wants for manuals! Scott Turner -- UUCP-stick: stride!l5comp!scotty | If you want to injure my goldfish just make UUCP-auto: scotty@l5comp.UUCP | sure I don't run up a vet bill. GEnie: JST | "The bombs drop in 5 minutes" R. Reagan Disclaimer? I own L5 Computing. Isn't \8[54 'D^*?\*
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (07/30/87)
In article <302@l5comp.UUCP> scotty@l5comp.UUCP (Scott Turner) writes: >Leo, he says it's $100 "for Suns"... This brings a few questions to my mind: >1. Can I buy News from Sun on a cartridge for $100 if I don't intend to use >it on a Sun 3??? ie do I need a Sun 3 serial #? Yes, it comes on a 1/4" (or 1/2") tape and you don't need a serial number. >2. Is $100 the single copy price or is that a quantity/dealer price? It's the price to you, the user. >3. Is the binary complete or do I need to have NFS etc as well? Huh? The tape contains sun-3 binaries. Since all Sun-3's come with NFS you don't need anything extra, just load it and go. If you try to run the binaries on a non-Sun machine the stuff that talks to the frame buffer and the network interface will die a horrible death. Basically, it is not feasible to run it on anything but a Sun-3, but we'll still sell you the tape. NOTE: Buying a tape includes a Sun-3 binary liscence, you could not buy a Sun tape, and then have someone mail you an Amiga port and use it. For that you would need an Amiga Binary license. (No we don't sell such a thing) >4. And you're right Leo, just about everything is overpriced for un*x. Mainly >because noone believes that only one person will be using software at a site >since a un*x machine is inherently multi-user. But if news is only $100 how >much are the manuals? I believe the manuals are included in the $100 price but you should call Sun to check. In our yearly results we mention the number of units in the field. Currently that number is 44,000 Suns. (Not all Sun 3's) Needless to say to make back your investment in software for that number of machines will require you to charge higher prices. At over 200,000 Amigas you can get away with $50-$300 priced packages. As the installed base expands the prices should come down (they always have in the past). --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.