peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (08/03/87)
Beware... the game "OGRE" is copyrighted by Steve Jackson games. Steve Jackson is, I am given to understand, a litigious fella. That means he's heavily into taking vigorous legal action to defend his rights. Be warned. Not all piracy is software piracy. You may be lucky and find that changing the rules and calling it "cybertank" will help. -- -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!seismo!soma!uhnix1!sugar!peter (I said, NO PHOTOS!)
fnf@mcdsun.UUCP (Fred Fish) (08/05/87)
In article <456@sugar.UUCP> peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: >Beware... the game "OGRE" is copyrighted by Steve Jackson games. Steve >Jackson is, I am given to understand, a litigious fella. That means he's >heavily into taking vigorous legal action to defend his rights. I am slightly confused here, are you saying: (1) The name "OGRE" is a trademark (registered or not) of Steve Jackson games. It's not possible to my knowledge to copyright a single word. (2) Steve Jackson games distributes a copyrighted work that is similar to but not derived from (or vice versa) the "ogre" game recently distributed over the net. (3) Steve Jackon games owns the copyright to the "ogre" game distributed over the net. (4) Something other than (1), (2), or (3) above... -Fred -- = Drug tests; just say *NO*! = Fred Fish Motorola Computer Division, 3013 S 52nd St, Tempe, Az 85282 USA = seismo!noao!mcdsun!fnf (602) 438-3614
mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (08/05/87)
In article <456@sugar.UUCP> peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
<Beware... the game "OGRE" is copyrighted by Steve Jackson games. Steve
<Jackson is, I am given to understand, a litigious fella. That means he's
<heavily into taking vigorous legal action to defend his rights.
Why don't we call it "Bolo" instead? Going all the way back to the
original sources (well, there are probably more even further back...).
The PD version floating around doesn't include any of the text from
the original (or it didn't when I was fooling with it), so there's not
a clear copyright violation involved. The best bet is the "look and
feel" idiocy being propogated by certain vendors, but that's never
actually ben upheld in court. Taking that route, SJ might get a
restraining order to keep people from distributing the PD game.
If he actually carried it into a lawsuit, copyright penalties are
usually something nominal plus damanges. What damages can SJ claim
from a game that encourages people to get a copy of his work?
BTW, SJ licensed the concept of the Bolo, and the authers of the
commercial Ogre came licensed that from SJ. Since both people are
making money off of the licensed work, there is room for non-trivial
amounts of money to change hands in the lawsuit.
<mike
--
Kiss me with your mouth. Mike Meyer
Your love is better than wine. mwm@berkeley.edu
But wine is all I have. ucbvax!mwm
Will your love ever be mine? mwm@ucbjade.BITNETkent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) (08/08/87)
In article <349@mcdsun.UUCP> fnf@mcdsun.UUCP (Fred Fish) writes: >In article <456@sugar.UUCP> peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: >>Beware... the game "OGRE" is copyrighted by Steve Jackson games. Steve >>Jackson is, I am given to understand, a litigious fella. That means he's >>heavily into taking vigorous legal action to defend his rights. > >I am slightly confused here, are you saying: > > (1) The name "OGRE" is a trademark (registered or not) of > Steve Jackson games. It's not possible to my knowledge > to copyright a single word. > > (2) Steve Jackson games distributes a copyrighted work that > is similar to but not derived from (or vice versa) the > "ogre" game recently distributed over the net. > > (3) Steve Jackon games owns the copyright to the "ogre" game > distributed over the net. > > (4) Something other than (1), (2), or (3) above... > >-Fred >-- >= Drug tests; just say *NO*! >= Fred Fish Motorola Computer Division, 3013 S 52nd St, Tempe, Az 85282 USA >= seismo!noao!mcdsun!fnf (602) 438-3614 Not claiming to be an authority, but my understanding is that (4) The _design_ of a game (rules, board layout, etc.) is copyrightable. Steve Jackson had a rather ugly experience when splitting with Microgames (or whatever), with both sides claiming ownership of the materials he developed and they sold. This has rather sensitized him to the subject of copyright infringement. He is a very nice guy otherwise, and I have corresponded with him over the net [ From: <sjackson@im4u.utexas.edu> it says on one of the notes from him that I saved]. If you are interested in his opinions on netogre, drop him an email line. I was disappointed in all this, because I was trying to find a current source of an old favorite of mine developed by Steve, called Rivits. This was one of those great "zip-loc bag games", and I played it a lot while doing ocean survey work along the equator. It turns out this was one of the games to which both sides had a good enough claim that neither dared the legal hassle of bringing it out in defiance of the other, so there is no current source. It would have made a great Amiga game, something like Final Conflict for the Apple ][+, but I lost the copy I had, and there are none to be found. Kent, the man from xanth.
peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (08/13/87)
In article <349@mcdsun.UUCP> fnf@mcdsun.UUCP (Fred Fish) writes: |In article <456@sugar.UUCP> peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: |>Beware... the game "OGRE" is copyrighted by Steve Jackson games. Steve |>Jackson is, I am given to understand, a litigious fella. That means he's |>heavily into taking vigorous legal action to defend his rights. | |I am slightly confused here, are you saying: | | (1) The name "OGRE" is a trademark (registered or not) of | Steve Jackson games. It's not possible to my knowledge | to copyright a single word. | | (2) Steve Jackson games distributes a copyrighted work that | is similar to but not derived from (or vice versa) the | "ogre" game recently distributed over the net. | | (3) Steve Jackon games owns the copyright to the "ogre" game | distributed over the net. | | (4) Something other than (1), (2), or (3) above... | |-Fred Steve Jackson Games distributes a copyrighted work called "OGRE", from which the "ogre" game distributed over the net has been derived. The rules are absolutely identical. The playing board is absolutely identical. The graphics are better on the original :->. There is a commercial computer game called OGRE that is also directly based on Steve Jackson's game, and which is either published by SJG or by someone who pays royalties to SJG. OGRE was Steve Jackson's first succesful product when it was first published as Microgame #1. Now, Steve has not been too scrupulous about using other people's work without credit... but he hasn't violated any copyrights that I'm aware of. Do him the same courtesy. If you want to keep "OGRE" around, call it "BOLO" and change the rules some. -- -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!seismo!soma!uhnix1!sugar!peter (I said, NO PHOTOS!)
mwm@eris.UUCP (08/16/87)
In article <478@sugar.UUCP> peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
<Steve Jackson Games distributes a copyrighted work called "OGRE", from which
<the "ogre" game distributed over the net has been derived. The rules are
<absolutely identical. The playing board is absolutely identical. The graphics
<are better on the original :->. There is a commercial computer game called
<OGRE that is also directly based on Steve Jackson's game, and which is either
<published by SJG or by someone who pays royalties to SJG.
<--
<-- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!seismo!soma!uhnix1!sugar!peter (I said, NO PHOTOS!)
As often as Peter is right, it's a little surprising to see him drop
one.
SJG has distributed *two* versions of OGRE. They are almost identical,
with a minor change in the rules. The concepts therein are licensed
from Keith Laumer, deriving from his BOLO stories.
Origin Systems Inc distributed a version of OGRE under license from
SJG. It is now distributed by EA. The graphics are nearly identical
to the SJG version, and the rules are nearly identical. The OSI
version allows for starting conditions that violate the rules of the
SJG version, and there is no way to use the optional rules. It's
nicely done; if only I could get it without the user traps.
There is an ASCII version of Ogre floating around. The graphics are
different, and the board is smaller. There is no option to allow a
human to play the ogre. There are three versions: stock, with problems
relating to stacking and movement (user interface bogosity - if you've
still got this, let me know) and a dumb ogre; one improved to the
point where only infantry combat rules differ from SJG, plus some
optional rules and ui improvements; and finally a version with ogre
types from The Space Gamer included.
Someone ported the middle version to the Amiga. I would assume it
still has most of the same problems (infantry combat and board size).
So neither the graphics nor the rules would be identical.
<mike
--
But I'll survive, no you won't catch me, Mike Meyer
I'll resist the urge that is tempting me, ucbvax!mwm
I'll avert my eyes, keep you off my knee, mwm@berkeley.edu
But it feels so good when you talk to me. mwm@ucbjade.BITNEThenry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (08/18/87)
> The PD version floating around doesn't include any of the text from > the original (or it didn't when I was fooling with it), so there's not > a clear copyright violation involved... Oh no? Copyright includes translations into other languages and media, as I recall. If you want to make a movie of, say, "The Hunt For Red October", simply changing all the dialogue slightly won't keep Tom Clancy from suing you. If the rules of the "PD" version are identical to those of Jackson's game, then it's almost certainly a copyright violation. It is also probably a trademark violation, since I can't believe that Jackson hasn't trademarked the game name "Ogre". -- Support sustained spaceflight: fight | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology the soi-disant "Planetary Society"! | {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,utai}!utzoo!henry
andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) (08/19/87)
In article <4759@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: >SJG has distributed *two* versions of OGRE. They are almost identical, >with a minor change in the rules. The concepts therein are licensed >from Keith Laumer, deriving from his BOLO stories. I remember how disappointed I was when they changed the rules. I thought it was funny that the OGRE could be killed easily by GEVs. As it proved that "Biphase carbide armor" was merely a marketing gimick from the Ogre Corporation after all. -- andy finkel {ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy Commodore-Amiga, Inc. "The goal of Computer Science is to build something that will last at least until we've finished building it." Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share. I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (08/22/87)
In article <4759@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, (Mike Meyer) writes: |SJG has distributed *two* versions of OGRE. They are almost identical, |with a minor change in the rules. The concepts therein are licensed |from Keith Laumer, deriving from his BOLO stories. First of all, the differences are extremely minor. If you want to pick nits replace the words "absolutely identical" with "virtually identical". Steve did not license anything from Keith Laumer... it is quite likely he never read the books (I know he never read Illuminatus before designing Illuminati). He gave Keith Laumer credit, but that's it. Secondly, it is extremely unlikely Steve gave his permission for the PD version. I've run into him a couple of times at conventions, and I got the impression that he wouldn't be happy with me doing one... so I didn't. I didn't actually bring up the subject, but his views were pretty obvious. Basically, the game OGRE is copyright be Steve Jackson, and I believe that the PD version is a violation of that copyright. There's more to copyright violation than software piracy... though you wouldn't think it on the net. If you have some facts to dispute this belief, I'd be happy to apologise. In the meantime, it'd probably be a wise move to remove the OGRE port from PD disk collections and bulletin boards. I haven't told SJ or anyone associated with them, and I'm not saying you're likely to be prosecuted. I just think that the "PD" OGRE is not consistent with the basic "rules" of PD software. |Origin Systems Inc distributed a version of OGRE under license from ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ |SJG. It is now distributed by EA. The graphics are nearly identical ^^^ |to the SJG version, and the rules are nearly identical. OSI/EA has permission. The person who did the PD version doesn't. -- -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!seismo!soma!uhnix1!sugar!peter (I said, NO PHOTOS!)
fnf@mcdsun.UUCP (Fred Fish) (08/24/87)
In article <531@sugar.UUCP> peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: >In the meantime, it'd probably be a wise move to remove the OGRE port >from PD disk collections and bulletin boards. I haven't told SJ or anyone >associated with them, and I'm not saying you're likely to be prosecuted. >I just think that the "PD" OGRE is not consistent with the basic "rules" >of PD software. Lest people think I am ignoring this issue with respect to my set of library disks, I have been trying (so far unsuccessfully) for the last couple of weeks to get in contact with Steve Jackson. About a week ago I sent a letter to an address provided to me by someone via email but have yet to get any response. If anyone has contact information for Steve Jackson that is known to be correct and current, I would appreciate a phone call with the information. Call (602) 921-1113 and leave a message on my answering machine. Thanks for any help. -Fred -- = Drug tests; just say *NO*! = Fred Fish Motorola Computer Division, 3013 S 52nd St, Tempe, Az 85282 USA = seismo!noao!mcdsun!fnf (602) 438-3614