steele@unc.cs.unc.edu (Oliver Steele) (01/01/70)
[ Note that I am adding sci.lang to the newsgroup heading and redirecting followups there; please do the same if you reply to a different article in this thread. ] mkhaw@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Mike Khaw) writes: >One could also use the well-established third-person singular neuter pronoun >that begins this sentence. When using "one", one's sentences read differently >from sentences that use "he" or "she", and one runs the risk of sounding arch, >but one is clearly not being sexist. 'One' is an arch substitute for colloquial 'you', and acts as a general pronoun that doesn't require an antecedent instead of a definite pronoun that does. Overloading it with meanings this similar would probably be unacceptably ambiguous: "That's a nice baby, isn't one." "One of the receptionists finally got around to receiving me, and one told me that Mr. Bigglesworth would be back from lunch shortly." (The two 'one's are co-referential). I tend to use foo, since it's easy to pronounce and one (:-) doesn't ever need to run computer descriptions and people-talk so closely together that 'one's uses as third person pronoun and metasyntactic variable conflict. Also: who where when whither whence wherefore thoo there then thither thence therefore who here hither hence wherefore (the top 'who' and 'wherefore' are interogative; the bottom ones are relative -- kludge) It is impossible to get a new word introduced into English with hard th ('then') instead of soft 'th' ('thistle'), and 'foo' comes close to 'thoo' with a soft 'th'. sterritt@ge-mc3i.UUCP (Chris Sterritt) writes: >NO NO A MILLION TIMES NO!!!!! Linguists DO NOT DICTATE LANGUAGE!!!! NO ONE >HAS EVER EVER EVER SUGGESTED SUCH A "FIX" FOR ANY HUMAN LANGUAGE AND HAD IT >STICK (except in France). (I'm glad letters only have two cases!) Exactly. The way to get a word introduced is to use it, not to prescribe it. I've only been able to get this to work for small groups of people (under 100). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Oliver Steele ...!{decvax,ihnp4}!mcnc!unc!steele steele%unc@mcnc.org
graifer@net1.ucsd.edu (Dan Graifer) (01/01/70)
All this stuff about sexually neutral language, the role of linguists, etc.,
is very interesting; Does it belong in these newsgroups? It reminds me of
some of the tangents the social groups go off on. Isn't there a natural
language group it could be moved to?
Thanks
Dan Graifer
graifer@net1.UCSD.EDU
Disclaimer: Nobody ever listens to me anyways; Why should they start now?kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) (01/01/70)
In article <336@ge-mc3i.UUCP> sterritt@ge-mc3i.UUCP (Chris Sterritt) writes: >>In article <2214@xanth.UUCP> kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >>>In article <8708200011.AA09857@cogsci.berkeley.edu> bryce@COGSCI.BERKELEY.EDU (Bryce Nesbitt) writes: >>>>~~ Some linguist should come up with a neuter personal pronoun and eliminate >>>>this sexist "he" or "she" stuff from modern literature. >>>possessive case, with the vowel sound a little shorter and less structured >>>Actually, one pretty good attempt I've seen uses "ser", which sounds like a >>Kent, the man from xanth. > >NO NO A MILLION TIMES NO!!!!! Linguists DO NOT DICTATE LANGUAGE!!!! NO ONE >HAS EVER EVER EVER SUGGESTED SUCH A "FIX" FOR ANY HUMAN LANGUAGE AND HAD IT >STICK (except in France). > >THIS IS JUST INCREDIBLY BOGUS. You are absolutely confused on the role of >people in language: No doubt you read William Safire. Language is invented, >changed, and updated by the PEOPLE, not the Academicians. Well, I'm more of a computer geek than a linguist, in spite of the family background. I have this strange feeling that except for a few Amigas and cats that have been blamed for postings, the net is mostly made up of people. If everyone on the readers list for comp.sys.amiga started using some agreed upon set of sex-neutral pronouns in speach and writing (where appropriate), exactly two "steps" (I tell all my acquaintances, they tell all theirs) would blanket the Continent, and three would probably encompass the English speaking world. It seems a lot simpler expressed that way. In the realm of sexist language usage, I can but quote Walt Kelly's Pogo: "We have met the enemy, and they are us." Kent, the man from xanth.
kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) (08/21/87)
In article <8708200011.AA09857@cogsci.berkeley.edu> bryce@COGSCI.BERKELEY.EDU (Bryce Nesbitt) writes: >~~ Some linguist should come up with a neuter personal pronoun and eliminate >this sexist "he" or "she" stuff from modern literature. Actually, one pretty good attempt I've seen uses "ser", which sounds like a possessive case, with the vowel sound a little shorter and less structured than "sayer", but having the same average sound. Perhaps "se", same vowel as "see", but a tad shorter, would do for a visually pleasing nominative case, and "sim" for an objective case? Worth a try. (This has zip to do with Amigas, but that's where the question was posed, and we're all readers and writers of English on this net, so I thought I'd toss this proposal back. Comments welcome as to the euphony of the proposal. Religious war flames as to whether it's worth mucking up a working language to protect gender sensitive ears go to /dev/null. It's important to some people, that's good enough.) Kent, the man from xanth. ( Certainly not a linguist, but child of a past vice president of the International Society for General Semantics, Chester Virl Dolan. ( Anybody seen my Dad the last twenty years or so? Lost him in the vague vicinity of California. He'd be about 70 by now, 5' 9", slender, mostly bald. Used to have family in L.A. Writes tech manuals. ) ) Kent Paul Dolan, LCDR, NOAA, Retired; ODU MSCS grad student // Yet UUCP : kent@xanth.UUCP or ...{sun,harvard}!xanth!kent // Another CSNET : kent@odu.csnet ARPA : kent@xanth.cs.odu.edu \\ // Happy USPost: P.O. Box 1559, Norfolk, Virginia 23501-1559 \// Amigan! Voice : (804) 587-7760 -=][> Last one to Ceres is a rotten egg! -=][>
jdow@gryphon.CTS.COM (Joanne Dow) (08/25/87)
In article <2214@xanth.UUCP> kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >In article <8708200011.AA09857@cogsci.berkeley.edu> bryce@COGSCI.BERKELEY.EDU (Bryce Nesbitt) writes: >>~~ Some linguist should come up with a neuter personal pronoun and eliminate >>this sexist "he" or "she" stuff from modern literature. > >Actually, one pretty good attempt I've seen uses "ser", which sounds like a >possessive case, with the vowel sound a little shorter and less structured >than "sayer", but having the same average sound. Perhaps "se", same Actually the APA field (Amateur Press Association) has had a set for some years now that are not much used outside; but, do avoid sexism... For he or she: hesh for him or her: himer for his or hers: hiser And so on... -- <@_@> BIX:jdow INTERNET:jdow@gryphon.CTS.COM UUCP:{akgua, hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, ihnp4, nosc}!crash!gryphon!jdow Remember - A bird in the hand often leaves a sticky deposit. Perhaps it was better you left it in the bush with the other one.
mkhaw@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Mike Khaw) (08/26/87)
One could also use the well-established third-person singular neuter pronoun
that begins this sentence. When using "one", one's sentences read differently
from sentences that use "he" or "she", and one runs the risk of sounding arch,
but one is clearly not being sexist.
Mike Khaw
--
internet: mkhaw@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa
usenet: {hplabs|sun|ucbvax|decwrl|sri-unix}!mkhaw%teknowledge-vaxc.arpa
USnail: Teknowledge Inc, 1850 Embarcadero Rd, POB 10119, Palo Alto, CA 94303sterritt@ge-mc3i.UUCP (Chris Sterritt) (08/26/87)
>In article <2214@xanth.UUCP> kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >>In article <8708200011.AA09857@cogsci.berkeley.edu> bryce@COGSCI.BERKELEY.EDU (Bryce Nesbitt) writes: >>>~~ Some linguist should come up with a neuter personal pronoun and eliminate >>>this sexist "he" or "she" stuff from modern literature. >>possessive case, with the vowel sound a little shorter and less structured >>Actually, one pretty good attempt I've seen uses "ser", which sounds like a >Kent, the man from xanth. NO NO A MILLION TIMES NO!!!!! Linguists DO NOT DICTATE LANGUAGE!!!! NO ONE HAS EVER EVER EVER SUGGESTED SUCH A "FIX" FOR ANY HUMAN LANGUAGE AND HAD IT STICK (except in France). THIS IS JUST INCREDIBLY BOGUS. You are absolutely confused on the role of people in language: No doubt you read William Safire. Language is invented, changed, and updated by the PEOPLE, not the Academicians. As an example: There was a non-sexist pronoun recommended a while back, but it just 'never caught on'; it was 'thon' (really!); Want to know when this awesomely farsighted and incredibly desirable idea (:-) was put forth? IN THE LATE 1800's!!! IT WAS NEVER HEARD OF AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Read "Word Play" by Peter Farb, a very fun to read book on linguistics by a real expert who can speak my language, and probably yours. It'll straighten out this fallacy and a million others (at least :-) that you may have, without even knowing it.
khayo@sonia.cs.ucla.edu (Erazm J. Behr) (08/26/87)
In article <1321@gryphon.CTS.COM> jdow@gryphon.CTS.COM (Joanne Dow) writes: >In article <2214@xanth.UUCP> kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >>In article <8708200011.AA09857@cogsci.berkeley.edu> bryce@COGSCI.BERKELEY.EDU (Bryce Nesbitt) writes: >>>~~ Some linguist should come up with a neuter personal pronoun and eliminate >>>this sexist "he" or "she" stuff from modern literature. (...) >Actually the APA field (Amateur Press Association) has had a set for some years >now that are not much used outside; but, do avoid sexism... (etc...) Two questions, if I may: Aren't there more worthwhile tasks before us (like introducing non-sexist pictograms to be painted on restrooms' doors)? WHAT THE HESH IS THIS DOING IN THESHE NEWSGROUPS??????????!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ khayo@math.ucla.edu
lishka@uwslh.UUCP (Christopher Lishka) (08/27/87)
[Strange subject for comp.sys.amiga, but what the hell...]
I find that my preferred way of referring to both sexes with
pronouns is to use combinations such as "s/he" and "her/his".
Personally, I try to do this as much as possible (however, sometimes I
forget...). Maybe this helps...
-Chris
--
Chris Lishka /lishka@uwslh.uucp
Wisconsin State Lab of Hygiene <-lishka%uwslh.uucp@rsch.wisc.edu
\{seismo, harvard,topaz,...}!uwvax!uwslh!lishka