geoffk@otl.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Geoffrey Kim) (09/23/87)
When I got my A500 about three months ago, I pretty disappointed with the manual provided with the computer. I mean, here is a computer that geared (=priced) for the masses (=first time computer user), but yet provides little or no information about how to get started. The manual provides two ends of the spectrum, it describes the usual stuff about what the keyboard is, how to insert disks, care and feeding of disks, (you know, real "low level" stuff which comes right after "Congratulations on you purchase of..." ;-)) and then gives you the schematics, pin-outs of connectors and custom chips. Come on, Commodore! I think first time users are going to have a heck of a time trying to get started without step by step instructions on what to do. Granted a lot of users are migrating from the C64 base, but we are trying to get new users as well. I thought the manual which came with the C64 and also the VIC20 (silicon from the days of old :)) was much better. I really don't mean to flame Commodore, because I think they have the best machine around (at least until I get my NEXT workstation :)). I just wanted to offer some constructive criticism on what could definitely use some improvements. On another note, I have gotten price quotes for the 501A at various mail order outfits for ~$160. So assuming you can get similar discount pricing on the Microbotics version, I would expect to see it available for about $100 - $110. BTW, where's the lowest price for an A2000. I've gotten quotes from Computer Best @$1595. CSB Inc., here in San Diego is selling the A500 at $550. Better deals anyone?
schwager@uiucdcsm.UUCP (09/24/87)
> /* Written 10:32 am Sep 23, 1987 by geoffk@otl.SanDiego.NCR.COM in uiucdcsm:comp.sys.amiga */ > /* ---------- "Amiga Manuals" ---------- */ > > When I got my A500 about three months ago, I pretty disappointed > with the manual provided with the computer. I mean, here is a > computer that geared (=priced) for the masses (=first time computer > user), but yet provides little or no information about how to > get started. > > /* End of text from uiucdcsm:comp.sys.amiga */ I got my A500 a month and a half ago. I ignored my girlfriend (who's basically computer illiterate, by the way) for about a week straight, then decided I better show my face at work :-). When I came home and fired up my machine, I found a small note she had written with notepad. I can't reveal its contents here... let's just say we had a lot of fun for a couple of days, and the Amiga languished on the desk. Anyway, I consider my girlfriend a "mass", so I figure if she can learn how to use it adequately in the space of an afternoon, the rest of the "masses" can too. Where did you find fault with the intro manual? -mike schwager -- {ihnp4,convex,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!schwager schwager%uiuc@csnet-relay.arpa University of Illinois, Dept. of Computer Science
andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) (09/27/87)
In article <1766@crash.CTS.COM> amiguy@pnet01.CTS.COM (Sean Wolfe) writes: >That's the way Commodore does their manuals. I was almost impressed when >I saw my manuals for the A1000. Its tough for a manual to be all things to all people. The original A1000 manual aimed for a computer unsophisticated user. The A500 manual on the other hand, aims a bit higher (with the CLI commands). While I agree that the schemetics are not useful to most people, believe it or not, its a *much* requested item. Lots of people like to hack their hardware. Or at least know what chip is on the other end of an I/O port. If you think your's are bad, loook at their >manual for the Commodore 64. And theres the story about the C64 programmers >reference guide on the subject of smooth scrolling. You look in the index for >smooth scrolling (which was a big deal in the old 64 days) and go to the >specified page. It tell's you that you have to write a machine lang. routine >to do smooth scrolling, that's it. It doesn't give any information on how to >do it. What ? That can't be right. I'm sure I told more than that when I wrote it. Well, lets see...look at the index...hmmmm no smooth scrolling listed, but there is an entry for scrolling. pages 128-130. Well, lets see...hmmm, looks like 3 pages on how to play with the VIC chip to get smooth scrolling. What could you have been talking about ? Oh, I see. I didn't include a block move routine for you. Well, block moves aren't hard, sorry I didn't put an example in, but I guess I didn't feel it added anything... I guess you should have looked closer, and saved yourself some trouble. What could have made you skip those pages ? Oh, I don't know. Just who in the world Could it have been. I wonder, could it have been...ATARI ? Oh, isn't that special. :-) >That's probably because Commodore didn't know either. No, that's not the reason. *I* could write a raster synced block move routine then, and I can do one now. :-) O'Well, the first >book I read for the Amiga was COMPUTE!'s Amiga DOS (ISBN#0-87455-047-5) >You can get it at B Dalton's or probably any book store for that fact. It's >real good for just starting out. To do real programming on the Amiga you really need both the Rom Kernal manuals, the AmigaDos manual, and (until Addison-Wesley comes out with an update already) the native developer's update disks, available from Commodore-Amiga Tech Support. Also helpful is Mortimer's Amiga Programmers books. Personally, I didn't fine the Compute books all that helpful. >AmiGuy -- andy finkel {ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy Commodore-Amiga, Inc. "Interfere? Of course we'll interfere. Always do what you're best at, I always say." Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share. I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
bryce@hoser.berkeley.edu.UUCP (09/27/87)
In article <1766@crash.CTS.COM> amiguy@pnet01.CTS.COM (Sean Wolfe) writes: > >[If you think the A1000 manuals are bad...] >And theres the story about the C64 programmers >reference guide on the subject of smooth scrolling. You look in the index for >smooth scrolling (which was a big deal in the old 64 days) and go to the >specified page. It tell's you that you have to write a machine lang. routine >to do smooth scrolling, that's it. It doesn't give any information on how to >do it. That's probably because Commodore didn't know either. Don't know what your complaint is. I found the C64 Programmer's Reference Guide to be an excellent guide. Clearly written and well partitioned. All the information needed, rolled into one little package. I checked and the smooth scrolling description was complete (except for the sprites in the border trick :-). Because of the nature of the C64, machine language is often needed. BASIC 2.0 does not support any graphics primitives more complex than "print". For a long time *after* those manuals came out the only two languages for the C64 were BASIC and 6502. Very few errors or ommisions. (With the definite exception of the serial bus timing charts and some related serial bus warnings (ie. sprites enabled during disk access)) The authors were not attributed, are to be complimented. Like the A1000 tech manuals, they are *not* tutorial. That is best left to another book. The Programmer's Reference Guide seemed to try hard to give BASIC examples for everything, but at certain points that become impractiable. |\ /| . Ack! (NAK, ENQ, SYN) {o O} . (") bryce@hoser.berkeley.EDU -or- ucbvax!hoser!bryce U How can you go back if you have not yet gone forth?
dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (09/27/87)
> If you think your's are bad, loook at their >>manual for the Commodore 64. And theres the story about the C64 programmers >>reference guide on the subject of smooth scrolling. You look in the index for >>... The C64 manual was *horrible* (sorry andy). The information was there (or most of it anyway), but the layout was so bad that you had to flip through the entire book every time you wanted to look something up. >In article <1766@crash.CTS.COM> amiguy@pnet01.CTS.COM (Sean Wolfe) writes: >>That's the way Commodore does their manuals. I was almost impressed when >>I saw my manuals for the A1000. The A1000 manual (that came with the computer) was quite a bit better than the C64 manual, but still lacks the organisation (sp). >Personally, I didn't fine the Compute books all that helpful. Neither do I. In my opinion, the A500 manual is the best of the lot. Workbench, CLI, machine connections and pinouts, and a separate BASIC manual. The A500 manual covers a wider range of users (or user brains) ... all except the programmers (us), which is just as well since we need thousands of pages of reference material anyway and it doesn't make sense to include all that junk in the box. BTW I refering to manuals which come with the computer, not 'other' stuff like the RKM etc.... -Matt
bathkey@well.UUCP (Kenneth S. Bethke) (09/27/87)
Andy, or anyone else in net-land.. I just opoened up my B2000, and noticed the "BusterTower" What in the world is this used for, I looked all over the place in the manual, and in all the dealer-demo documentaion, and I cant find any reference to WHAT on earth it is used for, was this some last minute bug fix, or is it a last minute feature, or what? I cant wait to find out. Scott Bethke BATHKEY@WELL
amiguy@pnet01.CTS.COM (Sean Wolfe) (09/28/87)
>> The c64 manual was *horrible* (sorry andy). The information was there (or most of it anyway), but the layout was so bad that you had to flip through the entire book every time you wanted to look something up. >> I guess I started this so...I should explain some more. My first computer was a C64. I knew very LITTLE about computers in general, and my first exposure to any information on them was the C64 Manual. It was aimed at the beginner, but it was impossible to learn from because (as stated by others) of it's layout.. I read it over and over again and again, but I didn't absorb much from that book. I used to do consultations for friends of friends who just bought their computers (usually c64's). I was just trying to give these people some information on how to get started with their C64. Most of them had some specific purpose in mind for their computer. The most often heard complaint was something to the effect that "the book that came with the Commodore 64 didn't teach me a thing.." Now, these people was the ones buying the computer, and if the manual couldn't get them started and just confused them more, well then it's worthless..... From the opinions expressed to my comments about Compute! books, well, it looks as if they are not favoured by most users here. I think I learned a great deal about the Commodore 64 from them as well a friend. I like Computes! Amiga DOS because when I first got my Amiga, it gave me quick to find explanations of the CLI commands. The books that came with the C128 had a nice touch with the colour photos, but seemed more or less like a reference manual that a beginners guide. Maybe Commodore thought that experienced users would be their targeted buying population and decided to drop step-by-step teachings... Sean Wolfe (These are, of course, just my opinions and I am no way connected to any Companies/Corp's mentioned above) UUCP: {cbosgd, hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!pnet01!amiguy ARPA: crash!pnet01!amiguy@nosc.mil INET: amiguy@pnet01.CTS.COM
grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) (09/29/87)
In article <126@otl.SanDiego.NCR.COM> geoffk@otl.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Geoffrey Kim) writes: > > When I got my A500 about three months ago, I pretty disappointed > with the manual provided with the computer. I mean, here is a > computer that geared (=priced) for the masses (=first time computer > user), but yet provides little or no information about how to > get started. The manual provides two ends of the spectrum, it > describes the usual stuff about what the keyboard is, how to > insert disks, care and feeding of disks, (you know, real "low level" > stuff which comes right after "Congratulations on you purchase of..." > ;-)) and then gives you the schematics, pin-outs of connectors and > custom chips. Come on, Commodore! I think first time users are > going to have a heck of a time trying to get started without step > by step instructions on what to do. The user's manual is always a bit of a problem. A real Amiga manual would be maybe a foot thick - people would think they are buying one of those unabridged dictionaries with the computer thrown in for free! 8-) The general idea is to put enough information in the manual for the customer, who may or may not be computer literate, to get some kind of action out of his purchase and to give an overview of the things it can do. A secondary purpose is to include reference material specific to this machine that may not appear in more generic texts. The general user may never need this stuff, but when the time comes to make up a cable or when the user is curious about what's inside or how it works, some information is there. Once you get beyond this stage, you need to hit the bookstore and get some more information, either the manuals written by Commdore or the more recent independent references. -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: out to lunch... Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) (09/29/87)
In article <4051@well.UUCP> bathkey@well.UUCP (Kenneth S. Bethke) writes: > > Andy, or anyone else in net-land.. I just opoened up my B2000, and noticed > the "BusterTower" > What in the world is this used for, I looked all over the place in the > manual, and in all the dealer-demo documentaion, and I cant find any reference > to WHAT on earth it is used for, was this some last minute bug fix, or is it > a last minute feature, or what? I cant wait to find out. It's a last minute bug fix. The gate array vendors don't seem to understand that "quick turnaround" is supposed to mean "delivered to the factory, next day". The couple of chips on the tower correct the problem... -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: out to lunch... Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
ins_atge@jhunix.UUCP (Thomas G Edwards) (10/08/87)
the documentation i particularly missed with my amiga was an amigados manual...along the lines of the tear-out technical reference guide in the middle of amiga world's special issue 1987. i could have really appreciated the info command a long, long time before i found out about it...even ibm dos comes with a manual. the introduction to using the workbench was very good though, and the docs had all the rs-232 pinouts and such. -thomas g edwards