kim@amdahl.UUCP (10/03/87)
[ 'Yo, 'bro, 'yo line is fried! ] I'm posting this for Pete Jordan here at Amdahl, who asks a question that alot of us are interested in. Also, I've heard various rumors of "scan-doublers" (or similar kinds of h/w) that some people are supposed to be working on ... anyone know anything more about such beasts? /kim > Long Persistence Monitor Question > > I sure would like to ask Commodore a question on Usenet: > > I've recently heard some great things about the Microvitec Long > persistence monitor mated to the Amiga: > > 14 inch screen > long persistence > not a multisync (standard 15.75) > $995 retail price. Computer Attic will sell them > for $899 (in Palo Alto). > Made in the U.K. > > The Microvitec person I talked to (404-991-2246) said that Commodore > has unofficially said this monitor would be supported. He even > dropped some Commodore names like Jeff Porter and Don Gilbrith (sp). > Microvitec is trying to talk Commodore into OEMing their monitor at > a good price of around $645. But Commodore might decide to have one > made in the Far East to cut expenses more. At any rate Microvitec > said that Commodore's long persistence monitor may not be ready for > about one year! > > My main question is: Would this be a good deal or will Commodore > support some kind of scan doubler which would require a multisync > monitor? I AM DESPERATE TO GET RID OF THIS FLICKERING CRAP*. Thanks > for any advice short of getting fired because of releasing top secret > information! > > *The flickering problem is the only main thing that has caused me > many times to think about switching over to a MACII or to the IBM > compatible world. I hope Commodore takes this complaint seriously. > > Have a nice day. -- UUCP: kim@amdahl.amdahl.com or: {sun,decwrl,hplabs,pyramid,ihnp4,uunet,oliveb,cbosgd,ames}!amdahl!kim DDD: 408-746-8462 USPS: Amdahl Corp. M/S 249, 1250 E. Arques Av, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 CIS: 76535,25
bryce@hoser.berkeley.edu.UUCP (10/03/87)
In article <15518@> kim@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kim DeVaughn) writes: >I'm posting this for Pete Jordan here at Amdahl... >> >> ...*The flickering problem is the only main thing that has caused me >> many times to think about switching over to a MACII or to the IBM >> compatible world. I hope Commodore takes this complaint seriously. I'd like to second that. You seem to want a color interlace solution. I'd settle for a monochrome one. I have been keeping my eyes open for a long-persistence monitor to hook to an A500. Have not found it yet. The last two times I have been in the local Amiga/Atari ST shop I have witnessed people convinced to purchase an Amiga walk out with an ST and the monochrome monitor -> for no other reason than nobody could show them a flicker-free 400 line display. Could anyone post part numbers and sources for LP monochrome monitors? They should be cheap... I picked a smear-green screen a long time ago for $79 or so; so far no luck repeating that feat. (That was a ultra low quality special, but you get the idea) Perhaphs Commodore should issue a flyer to dealers with some suggested monitors. Commodore does not sell such a beast yet, and until then it can only help sell 500 and 2000's to a segment of users that has not been able to consider them before. [The eventual solution in a multi-scanning capable chipset... even if it does reduce the number of colors. I'd sink considerable sums to get 704*464 flicker free.] Bryce (-: My 'brohs disk is 'fried :-) Nesbitt |\ /| . Ack! (NAK, ENQ, SYN) {o O} . (") bryce@hoser.berkeley.EDU -or- ucbvax!hoser!bryce U How can you go back if you have not yet gone forth?
bobb@tekfdi.TEK.COM (Robert Bales) (10/04/87)
In article <4122@zen.berkeley.edu> bryce@hoser.berkeley.edu.UUCP (Bryce Nesbitt) writes: >Could anyone post part numbers and sources for LP monochrome monitors? >They should be cheap... I picked a smear-green screen a long time ago >for $79 or so; so far no luck repeating that feat. (That was a >ultra low quality special, but you get the idea) One man's experience. . . . About a month ago, I used Dpaint II in hi-res mode with a two-color screen to draw some software charts for work. On my KV-1311, this was barely tolerable with the proper choice of colors. However, when I decided to take my Amiga to work, I didn't want to haul in the monitor. So I used a ??-301, the common Amdek amber-screen monitor used with IBM's. Although I could ocassionally note some flicker, I worked with this all day without the eyestrain that I experience after staring at an interlaced color display, even when the flicker is nearly subliminal. A very satisfactory solution, although the sample Digi-view images I showed my co-worker did leave something to be desired. :-) I was usig black on white. Whenever the program modified the colors to bring up a requester, the dot pattern caused by the chroma information was very noticeable. I have no idea what persistance phosphor is used in this monitor. Bob Bales Tektronix, Inc. I help Tektronix make their instruments. They don't help me make my opinions.
amiguy@pnet01.CTS.COM (Sean Wolfe) (10/04/87)
bryce@hoser.berkeley.edu (Bryce Nesbitt) writes: >In article <15518@> kim@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kim DeVaughn) writes: >>I'm posting this for Pete Jordan here at Amdahl... >>> >>> ...*The flickering problem is the only main thing that has caused me >>> many times to think about switching over to a MACII or to the IBM >>> compatible world. I hope Commodore takes this complaint seriously. > a Have you ever seen a VCR recording or a composite picture of an interlaced screen (flickering), well it turns out beautfully. Most TV graphics (e.g. the news) are interlaced. Interlace reproduces on tape better than normal screens.A Have you ever used a Jitter-Rid (tm.)? I have one and It almost completely wipes out the flicker on the Amiga Monitor. It is just a thin piece of smoked plexy-glas that covers the tube. I suppose any piece of PlexyGlas would do the trick. It runs for appx. $13. I would highly recommend it. Sean Wolfe AmiGuy Disclaimer : I have no affiliation with the makers of Jitter-Rid (tm.) UUCP: {cbosgd, hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!pnet01!amiguy ARPA: crash!pnet01!amiguy@nosc.mil INET: amiguy@pnet01.CTS.COM
richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) (10/05/87)
kim@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kim DeVaughn) writes: > >Also, I've heard various rumors of "scan-doublers" (or similar kinds >of h/w) that some people are supposed to be working on ... anyone know >anything more about such beasts? My guess is you will be able to buy a scan doubler before you can buy an Amiga Live! - And I saw Live! demonstrated at the show yesterday. They even had some shipping boxes around the booth to prove they *could* ship if they did anything *to* ship. >/kim > > >> Long Persistence Monitor Question >> >> I sure would like to ask Commodore a question on Usenet: >> >> I've recently heard some great things about the Microvitec Long >> persistence monitor mated to the Amiga: >> >> 14 inch screen >> long persistence >> not a multisync (standard 15.75) >> $995 retail price. Computer Attic will sell them >> for $899 (in Palo Alto). >> Made in the U.K. ^^^^ Uh-oh. >> >> The Microvitec person I talked to (404-991-2246) said that Commodore >> has unofficially said this monitor would be supported. He even >> dropped some Commodore names like Jeff Porter and Don Gilbrith (sp). >> Microvitec is trying to talk Commodore into OEMing their monitor at >> a good price of around $645. But Commodore might decide to have one >> made in the Far East to cut expenses more. At any rate Microvitec >> said that Commodore's long persistence monitor may not be ready for >> about one year! I have used these monitors (with certain brain damaged computer goods) and they range from "well, ok" to "moderatly wretched". They are BIG, run hot, break a lot, always need adjusting. For starters. For a while there Microvitec was using an "IBM blue" phosphor (kind of a 0-12-15 looking blue) instead of "sky blue", or, what we would expect for blue. As a result, nothing came out even close. Except IBM logo's. Later ones have "true blue". Make sure you get the right one if you decide you need one of these things. >> My main question is: Would this be a good deal or will Commodore >> support some kind of scan doubler which would require a multisync >> monitor? I AM DESPERATE TO GET RID OF THIS FLICKERING CRAP*. Thanks >> for any advice short of getting fired because of releasing top secret >> information! In reality (good point, what *would* I know about that ?) you dont need a multisync monitor to use a scan doubler. Just a monitor that can sync up to the rate of the scan doubler output. But if you want one that will work w/o the scan doubler, then yes, you want a multisync. >> *The flickering problem is the only main thing that has caused me >> many times to think about switching over to a MACII or to the IBM Good God, man. There's no point in being irrational about this. Forget the Microvitec. Remember the English can't build anything that uses electricity or oil, and make it work. The 'vitec is *right up there* with the Electrohome in terms of outstanding color quality. Ie, none. Buy a Sony Multi scan, and stick a Polaroid (tm) flicker ridder critter in front of it. And when the scan doublers come out, you'll be one step ahead of us all. >> compatible world. I hope Commodore takes this complaint seriously. >> >> Have a nice day. Right. >UUCP: kim@amdahl.amdahl.com -- Richard J. Sexton INTERNET: richard@gryphon.CTS.COM UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, ihnp4, nosc}!crash!gryphon!richard "It's too dark to put the keys in my ignition..."
king@dciem.UUCP (Stephen King) (10/09/87)
In article <1758@gryphon.CTS.COM> richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) writes: >My guess is you will be able to buy a scan doubler before you can buy an >Amiga Live! - And I saw Live! demonstrated at the show yesterday. They I recently posted a request for pointers to monitors that would accept scan-doubler output. There were no responses. I assume that this means that such an item may not be readily available. I did discover that Tektronix has a system that may suit my needs, but most of you will probably know that Tektronix means $$$ (and quality, of course). I don't think that scan-doublers will be available until there are reasonably priced monitors for them. >Forget the Microvitec. Remember the English can't build anything >that uses electricity or oil, and make it work. Careful, you are being a little bit obnoxious here. I'll assume that the :-) was implicit. ...sjk -- * Defence & Civil Institute * ...!utzoo!dciem!king * of Environmental Medicine * Stephen J King - Simulation & Training Group - (416) 635-2149
bryce@hoser.berkeley.edu (Bryce Nesbitt) (10/12/87)
In article <2472@dciem.UUCP> king@dciem.UUCP (Stephen King) writes: >In article <1758@gryphon.CTS.COM> richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) writes: >I recently posted a request for pointers to monitors that would accept >scan-doubler output. There were no responses. I assume that this means >that such an item may not be readily available. Any "multiscan" monitor will. This means a NEC Multisync, Sony Multiscan and a host of other random less well known brands. Sony offers the Multiscan with Amiga cable. About 550 dollars. (Sony is probably the most expensive of the consumer multiscans). >>My guess is you will be able to buy a scan doubler before you can buy an >>Amiga Live!... The "King of vaporware" proudly announced that he needs a new title. Yes, Amiga LIVE! is shipping. No kidding. For a person who is not already in the waiting line there will still be a backorder, however. (They still did not get all the parts in from the supplier that was to have built them. I'm told you get a complete product except for the A-squared logo... that will be mailed to you whenever they get it. Now the question is, can a prouct work without the logo of it's manufacturer emblazoned on the side? :-) ) >>Forget the Microvitec. Remember the English can't build anything >>that uses electricity or oil, and make it work. Chunk McManis has a old Sun color monitor at Hacker's V3.0. Color was reasonable on a non interlace screen and low flicker for interlace. (I guess you would call it a "medium" persitence monitor) The monitor spent two days playing "Front Line"; no smear problems as far as the game went. Only real problems are the thing is as big as four 1080 monitors and you would probably need to purchase it used (not an easy find). |\ /| . Ack! (NAK, ENQ, SYN) {o O} . (") bryce@hoser.berkeley.EDU -or- ucbvax!hoser!bryce U "...this will shoot the lips off a cockroch."
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (10/13/87)
In article <4281@zen.berkeley.edu> (Bryce Nesbitt) writes: >Chunk McManis has a old Sun color monitor at Hacker's V3.0. Color >was reasonable on a non interlace screen and low flicker for >interlace. (I guess you would call it a "medium" persitence monitor) >The monitor spent two days playing "Front Line"; no smear problems >as far as the game went. Only real problems are the thing is as >big as four 1080 monitors and you would probably need to purchase >it used (not an easy find). [Note my name is Chuck, not 'Chunk' :-)] [The Sun-2 color monitor is big (19") and heavy (> 100 lbs)] What Bryce said is correct, except the game was MicroIllusions 'FirePower' which could easily be billed as the ultimate tank game. And since it was played for 38 hrs straight by several people I think I can give it a fairly good review here : Overview : Firepower is the first in a series of 'One on One' series by MicroIllusions. The game can be played with two people on the same machine (side by side graphics), one person against the computer, or two people on two machines using modems to connect them. The object is to capture the 'flag' of the other player and return it to your 'garage'. The perspective is from overhead like Armor Attack and playfield is scrolled around as you move across it ala Faery Tale. A joystick is used to control the tank you are driving (you have a choice of three models when you start the game) and the fire button fires the cannon. The World : Each player has a home base, one has green features, and the other has brown features. This base is surrounded by lots of walls that have gun emplacements at the corners. Inside the base are buildings of several varieties all but the hospital and garage can be blown up. Through out the world there are roads that are generally easier to follow than to make your way through the third type of are, forest. The buildings are fairly interesting in that they contain different types that hold troops in various proportions. There are office buildings that hold a few troops, warehouses that hold no troops, barracks that hold lots of troops and jails that hold *your* troops. More on troops later in Scoring. The Players : There are actually two types of aggressive units in this game, tanks and helicopters. You control your tank, it stays on the screen at all times. The helicopters (up to five at a time) are 'automatic' and attack the enemy pretty much randomly. One of the 'features' of this game is that shells from any piece will blow up something that can be destroyed (so you can blow up your own buildings if you want). Additionally, there are troops that run around although they can't kill you. Tank Specifics : When you start the game you can choose between one of three tanks. The tanks vary in speed, defensive capability, efficiency and number of mines and troops. Tanks are fairly manuverable, however they do tend to get stuck in 'rubble' sometimes fatally so [see bugs]. The status screen displays how many mines and troops you are carrying and how much fuel you have left. There is also a radar screen that shows your position relative to the enemy tank or helicopters. When you are taking damage the current number of damage points remaining are displayed in the radar screen. When that number goes to zero your tanks explodes. Game Play (or how to Score) : Points are scored when ever you destroy something that belongs to the enemy. The most common way of destroying things is to blast it a number of times with your cannon. The sound effects are quite good and include explosions, tank sounds, and squishes. The latter comes into play with one of the more morbid ways of scoring points, killing troops. When ever a building or gun emplacement is destroyed there are often some troops that try to run away from the destruction, driving over them with your tank makes a 'squish' sound and leaves a red splotch on the ground. You also score three points. However troops are useful too, if you save some of your own and take them to the hospital, you get one mine for every five troops that make it. The goal in multiplayer mode is to capture the opponents flag (stored in a bunker) and carry it back to your garage. You have an unlimited number of tanks to do this with. In you vs the computer mode, you have a limited number of tanks and simply try to score lots of points. Bugs (or misfeatures) : What review would be complete without some negative news. The good news is that this game was played for 36 hours straight and never gurued. My machine runs 1.2 with expanded memory so the two worst cases were taken into account. One of the most annoying features, is the problem with stuck tanks. It is possible to get a tank wedged in some rubble. Normally, holding the joystick in one direction for > 10 seconds will unwedge it, sometimes the only way to get out is to have the other player come around and destroy you. Another feature of this game is mines. You can lay mines anywhere you chose and when the enemy tank gets within range the mine blows up, destroying the tank. Unfortunately the way to drop mines is to stop, press the fire button and then pull down on the joystick. The mine drops and you have some time to get away from it before it arms itself. Unfortunately, these same moves are often used in battles with enemy units! If you are carrying a mine, and while fighting drop it and fail to notice you did so (quite easy) then it blows you up. Most annoying. It is also possible to drive into the other players 'garage' (where the tank always starts from.) If you do this, then when the enemy player gets destroyed the game will create a new tank right on top of you. The game won't let you move because your too close to the other tank, you cant shoot it because it isn't in front of your gun, and the helicopters cant get it because the garage protects you. You guessed it, reboot time. Another highly publicized but poorly implemented feature was multiplayer through the serial port mode. At Hackers we had two Amigae connected together via a null modem cable. Unfortunately, FirePower wanted to see a modem on the serial line. It refused to connect without some sort of AT type handshake going on. This was a big disappointment. As a packaging flaw there were no instructions packages with the game. It was sort of like a coin-op in that we figured things out by trying them. There are some screens of instructions although they do not go far enough in describing the game. Finally, the game does not multitask, although with some forethought it should be able to on large memory space machines. And if you try to start it from the workbench it gives you a message to reboot the machine with the firepower disk in drive 0. Conclusions : Overall I would rate this game a high 7 or 8 on a scale of 1 to 10. The multiplayer mode is definitely more fun than the single player mode and the fact that you don't have to have two Amigae is a big win. The graphics are very nice and are easily 'arcade quality.' I have no qualms about recommending this game to anyone who likes arcade 'action' games. For a great time compare it to 'tank' on the Atari 2600 some time, what a difference a decade can make no? --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) (10/13/87)
In article <2472@dciem.UUCP> king@dciem.UUCP (Stephen King) writes: >I recently posted a request for pointers to monitors that would accept >scan-doubler output. There were no responses. I assume that this means >that such an item may not be readily available. I did discover that Tah-Daaa! The Answer! Any one of the various MultiSynch monitors, such as the NEC MultiSync, Taxan 770, Sony MultiScan, etc., should work just fine. They are all spec'd for the IBM PGA card, which is 640 X 480, so a 640 X 400 Amiga screen should do pretty well. -- ---------------- Michael J. Farren "... if the church put in half the time on covetousness unisoft!gethen!farren that it does on lust, this would be a better world ..." gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa Garrison Keillor, "Lake Wobegon Days"
richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) (10/13/87)
In article <2472@dciem.UUCP> king@dciem.UUCP (Stephen King) writes: >In article <1758@gryphon.CTS.COM> Richard Sexton writes: Stephan King writes: > >I recently posted a request for pointers to monitors that would accept >scan-doubler output. There were no responses. I assume that this means >that such an item may not be readily available. I did discover that >Tektronix has a system that may suit my needs, but most of you will >probably know that Tektronix means $$$ (and quality, of course). > >I don't think that scan-doublers will be available until there are reasonably >priced monitors for them. > As Bryce will point out in an upcoming article, the current crop of multi-sync monitors will work just fine when this scan-doubler emerges. >>Forget the Microvitec. Remember the English can't build anything >>that uses electricity or oil, and make it work. > >Careful, you are being a little bit obnoxious here. I'll assume that >the :-) was implicit. ...sjk Right on both counts. I am obnoxious, and a :-) was (and ALWAYS IS) implied. Besides I worked on Jaguars and Triumphs, so I feel a little entitled to slander my ancestors (I was born there). They slander me all the time. >Stephen J King P.S. Keep up the scarey books. I loved _Cujo_. -- Richard J. Sexton INTERNET: richard@gryphon.CTS.COM UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, ihnp4, nosc}!crash!gryphon!richard "It's too dark to put the keys in my ignition..."
king@dciem.UUCP (Stephen King) (10/13/87)
In article <4281@zen.berkeley.edu> bryce@hoser.berkeley.edu (Bryce Nesbitt) writes: >Any "multiscan" monitor will. This means a NEC Multisync, Sony Multiscan (in response to my comments re: scan doublers) Ahem. I think I better clarify myself. I was (am) looking for a monitor which will do 120Hz FIELDS for a 60Hz FRAME rate. Will the above mentioned monitors do this? At a 32kHz horizontal rate (interlaced)? Or, will these monitors do ~480 lines at 60Hz non-interlaced? I understand that Toshiba now makes a unit which includes conversion circuitry, and displays NTSC in a 60Hz NON-INTERLACED fashion. This seems a useful beast. Flames invited - it's starting to get cold up here! ...sjk -- * Defence & Civil Institute * ...!utzoo!dciem!king * of Environmental Medicine * Stephen J King - Simulation & Training Group - (416) 635-2149
richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) (10/13/87)
In article <4281@zen.berkeley.edu> (Bryce Nesbitt) writes: >In article <2472@dciem.UUCP> king@dciem.UUCP (Stephen King) writes: >>In article <1758@gryphon.CTS.COM> (Richard Sexton) writes: >>I recently posted a request for pointers to monitors that would accept >>scan-doubler output. There were no responses. I assume that this means >>that such an item may not be readily available. I did *not* write this. Can't you tell ? The spelling and grammer is correct. > >Any "multiscan" monitor will. This means a NEC Multisync, Sony Multiscan >and a host of other random less well known brands. Sony offers the >Multiscan with Amiga cable. About 550 dollars. (Sony is probably >the most expensive of the consumer multiscans). ... and for a reason. In a previous life we had the Sony, the Nec, the Electrohome and Microvitec all together on a bench. Note they are listed here in order of image quality, with a big gap between the Nec and the Electrohome. > > >>>My guess is you will be able to buy a scan doubler before you can buy an >>>Amiga Live!... > >The "King of vaporware" proudly announced that he needs a new title. >Yes, Amiga LIVE! is shipping. No kidding. For a person who is not >already in the waiting line there will still be a backorder, however. > >(They still did not get all the parts in from the supplier that was >to have built them. I'm told you get a complete product except >for the A-squared logo... that will be mailed to you whenever they >get it. Now the question is, can a prouct work without the logo >of it's manufacturer emblazoned on the side? :-) ) Great, I can see it now. "I just got off the phone with Wendy, and she said Logos will be shipping real soon now". "Oops forget it, one of their paint suppliers cant make delivery of pigment #497, and the delivery for the logo's has been slipped..." Ad nausium. Seriously (for a change) it's GREAT to see this product actually meet the light of day. > >Chunk McManis has a old Sun color monitor at Hacker's V3.0. Color >was reasonable on a non interlace screen and low flicker for >interlace. (I guess you would call it a "medium" persitence monitor) >The monitor spent two days playing "Front Line"; no smear problems >as far as the game went. Only real problems are the thing is as >big as four 1080 monitors and you would probably need to purchase >it used (not an easy find). Is this the case of a $5000 monitor hooked up to a $1000 computer ? > bryce@hoser.berkeley.EDU -or- ucbvax!hoser!bryce -- Richard J. Sexton INTERNET: richard@gryphon.CTS.COM UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, ihnp4, nosc}!crash!gryphon!richard "It's too dark to put the keys in my ignition..."