lbrown@apctrc.UUCP (10/01/87)
In article <21027@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> robinson@renoir.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Michael Robinson) writes: > >Kaypro (remember them) won a Clio for their "but how much does it REALLY >cost" ad. Alright then, if BADGE can sponsor a Killer Demo contest, then why doesn't C-A or their Ad firm (Sleepy, Dopey, and Pokey) get on the stick with a Killer Ad contest? We have assembled here some of Amigas finest minds, people who can make the machine jump through hoops (or in Leo's Case, unicycles). Barring that, what about the ad company bouncing some ideas off us? I'm not so egotistical as to suggest we are the ultimate experts, but we ARE pretty close when it comes to ideas of what's looking sharp on the Amiga machine. It may be that C-A just isn't budgeting the bucks for ads. Timeslots on major networks for big shows like Max Headroom, Star Trek, Cosby show (wouldn't that be ironic? Texas Instrument Joke). If so the Ad people may have the ideas but are hamstrung in implementing 'em. Well??? -- Lawrence H. Brown USENET: ...!uunet!apctrc!cdf!zlhb0a or zlhb0a@cdf.apctrc.uucp (?) Phone: (918-660-4389) 24 hrs, voice. USmail: 7325 E. 50th, Tulsa, OK 74145 Disclaimer: I paid 25 cents to see the light. Call it cheap entertainment.
mike@ames.arpa (Mike Smithwick) (10/11/87)
> >Alright then, if BADGE can sponsor a Killer Demo contest, then why doesn't >C-A or their Ad firm (Sleepy, Dopey, and Pokey) get on the stick with a >Killer Ad contest? We have assembled here some of Amigas finest minds, people >who can make the machine jump through hoops (or in Leo's Case, unicycles). > >Barring that, what about the ad company bouncing some ideas off us? > >I'm not so egotistical as to suggest we are the ultimate experts, but we >ARE pretty close when it comes to ideas of what's looking sharp on the >Amiga machine. Actually, I suggested that to some of the guys both at BAADG and FAUG, with some interest. What I was looking at was a "Design Your Own Print Ad" contest, which would be a bit easier than a video contest. Submissions could be in both IFF and photo/art format. I have a half-dozen serious and not so serious ideas I'd love to do. I even went so far as to suggest that we could take the winner and actually run it in one of the medium level mags if the cost wasn't too outrageous (entry fees could pay for it). A video contest would be fun as well, but difficult for many people. Oh, heck, we could just make it a group project, and star the guys from BAADG. I wonder what it would cost to rent "Star Tours" at Disneyland for a couple of hours of shooting?? Back to reality, I just saw the new A500 ads last night running on KTVU, an independent station (on Saturday nite?? Who are you kidding guys!). They weren't too bad, but still never really told me why I'd want to buy an Amy over a PeeCee Klone. What would've been alot better would be to have testimonials from users, such as the guy who does the Max Headroom graphics, to people doing MTV videos, to researchers at NASA. Or how 'bout mimicking those California Almond commercials. Instead we have Amiga developers standing hip-deep in Kickstart disks saying "Hi there, were developers, you know the guys who bring you all that neato software. Well, Porches are expensive these days, and how 'bout them hard-disks? (in unison, the others say, "yeah" or "you bet" looking around at each other). (some other inane comments) And the ad ends. . . "An Amiga a week, that's all we ask". Tis all for now. . . -- *** mike (powered by M&Ms) smithwick *** "ever felt like life was a game, and someone gave you the wrong instruction book?" [discalimer : nope, I don't work for NASA, I take full blame for my ideas]
higgin@cbmvax.UUCP (Paul Higginbottom SALES) (10/12/87)
in article <3070@ames.arpa>, mike@ames.arpa (Mike Smithwick) says: > Back to reality, I just saw the new A500 ads last night running on KTVU, an > independent station (on Saturday nite?? Who are you kidding guys!). They > weren't too bad, but still never really told me why I'd want to buy an Amy > over a PeeCee Klone. What would've been alot better would be to have > testimonials from users, such as the guy who does the Max Headroom graphics, > to people doing MTV videos, to researchers at NASA. Or how 'bout mimicking > those California Almond commercials. Instead we have Amiga developers > standing hip-deep in Kickstart disks saying "Hi there, were developers, you know > the guys who bring you all that neato software. Well, Porches are expensive > these days, and how 'bout them hard-disks? (in unison, the others say, "yeah" > or "you bet" looking around at each other). (some other inane comments) And > the ad ends. . . > -- > *** mike (powered by M&Ms) smithwick *** > "ever felt like life was a game, and > someone gave you the wrong instruction book?" > [discalimer : nope, I don't work for NASA, I take full blame for my ideas] This (from your description) was NOT a Commodore commercial. Probably put on by local dealer[s]. The A500 commercial begins with monitors coming out of the "primordial soup" (i.e., mist and murky backdrop). Paul.
dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (10/13/87)
>The A500 commercial begins with monitors coming out of the "primordial >soup" (i.e., mist and murky backdrop). > > Paul. Yah... I saw that one. A deaf person would like it. Unfortunetly, most of the viewing audiance can hear. The guy's voice made the machine sound like a toy... inflections in the wrong place, too forced and unnatural. Personally I think it hurt the machine more than it helped it. I dunno, but I have the feeling that somebody isn't *thinking* over there in the advertisement department. What they need are fewer bells and whistles, and more intelligence. -Matt (BTW this isn't directed to any CA personal on the net... I doubt any of the people responsible for the Commercial are on the net. Still.. pass it on if you can).
king@dciem.UUCP (Stephen King) (10/14/87)
Here in Toronto, a local radio station (CFNY) runs commercials for a computer dealer (Computer Dumb - for people that are) offering $300 off an Amiga 500 if you trade in your old C64. They then give the C64 to charity!! I don't know what their normal selling price for a 500 is, but this seems quite a noble thing to do (and a tax write-off too, no doubt). The sore spot is that this commercial is sometimes followed by an Atari ad offering to give you a Mac SE if you buy an ST and don't like it. I don't know the complete details here, but this is what I heard...sjk -- * Defence & Civil Institute * ...!utzoo!dciem!king * of Environmental Medicine * Stephen J King - Simulation & Training Group - (416) 635-2149
higgin@cbmvax.UUCP (Paul Higginbottom SALES) (10/14/87)
>What they need are fewer bells and whistles, and more intelligence. > -Matt I think you overestimate the TV viewing audience. A survey once declared that the maturity level of the TV audience is on average the same as that of a 12 year old. You, Matt, are clearly more intelligent that the average viewer. In TV in 30 seconds, it's really tough to convey much beyond enforcing NAME recognition. Print media is much better for details. Paul.
kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) (10/15/87)
In article <2495@cbmvax.UUCP> higgin@cbmvax.UUCP (Paul Higginbottom SALES) writes: >>What they need are fewer bells and whistles, and more intelligence. >> -Matt > >I think you overestimate the TV viewing audience. A survey once declared >that the maturity level of the TV audience is on average the same as >that of a 12 year old. > >You, Matt, are clearly more intelligent that the average viewer. >In TV in 30 seconds, it's really tough to convey much beyond enforcing >NAME recognition. > >Print media is much better for details. > > Paul. Come on, Paul. We love you like a brother; we have to, you're all we've got! But, you don't really believe for a minute that the potential customers for a $600 toy that actually requires cerebration and participation forms a one to one map with the set of average couch potato vidiots who also happen to see your efforts? You'd better pitch at the folks who would spring that kind of cash for a HiQ toy, rather than the average, couldn't be bothered slobs. Kent, the man from xanth. His expression lit up. "Hey, you wouldn't be a dope smuggler, would you?" Rail looked confused. "Why would anyone wish to smuggle stupidity when there is so much of it readily available?" -- Alan Dean Foster, GLORY LANE
keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) (10/16/87)
In article <8710130223.AA15695@cory.Berkeley.EDU> dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) writes: >>The A500 commercial begins with monitors coming out of the "primordial >>soup" (i.e., mist and murky backdrop). >> > What they need are fewer bells and whistles, and more intelligence. > > -Matt Either that, or get Sedelmeyer to do one with a goofy guy going into a computer store with a hard-sell salesman, and looking at the PC (showing the new machines with huge price tags or something), at the Mac SE (Where is Ted Turner when we need him?), or the IIGS or ATARI (having them playing Space Invaders or Defender) Same Place, Same Thing Keith Doyle # {ucbvax,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd Contel Business Systems 213-323-8170
cp46@sdcc15.UUCP (Hartford) (10/16/87)
In article <2495@cbmvax.UUCP> higgin@cbmvax.UUCP (Paul Higginbottom) writes: >>What they need are fewer bells and whistles, and more intelligence. >> -Matt > >I think you overestimate the TV viewing audience... > There's a difference between the TV viewing audience's intelligence and producing a commerical which looks like it came out of a high school media class. I was at Ami Expo last weekend and the prevailing attitude there was "it stinks but at least they're doing something". I asked someone there from Griffon Bechal about the commerical, in particular the part where the smoke obscures the screen so bad you can't see what is on it. He said that they HAD to obscure the screen because of the angle the camera was coming in on the screen. Yeah, right. Come on CA, pay a little more and get a lot more. As far as TV ads, the recent IBM and Mac ads strike me as calm, sophisticated, and, by gosh, even intelligent. Amazing all that CA can come up with is a "golly gee, a computer!" attitude... BTW, Ami Expo was a blast. Not necessary the show, but rooming with John Foust (I know you're listening), and partying with the gang in NY. Don't miss the LA show if you can help it! -- Stephen Hartford // cp46%sdcc15@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu people unclear on the concept: \\ // am10fme%sdcc2@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu "power without the price" \// ma176abn%sdcc19@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu
higgin@cbmvax.UUCP (Paul Higginbottom SALES) (10/16/87)
in article <2785@xanth.UUCP>, kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) says: > Come on, Paul. We love you like a brother; we have to, you're all we've got! Thanks, I think :-| Disclaimer: These are obviously personal opinions on my part. > But, you don't really believe for a minute that the potential customers for a > $600 toy that actually requires cerebration and participation forms a one > to one map with the set of average couch potato vidiots who also happen to > see your efforts? I absolutely do! We didn't sell 7 million C64s to intellectuals. And the C64 is basically a more difficult machine to use than the Amiga. Now I mean USE and not PROGRAM. Consider this: 50% of U.S households now have VCRs. VCRs are generally NOT easy to use unless you only play tapes. Even then, the MYRIAD of possible connections that the lack of standards in cable-tv systems has made setting them up far more difficult than an Amiga. I do not believe for one minute that VCRs have only sold to "upscale, informed consumers." Curious side note: Ever notice there's NO advertising for VCR's on TV by the manufacturers. Paul.
richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) (10/16/87)
In article <2495@cbmvax.UUCP> higgin@cbmvax.UUCP (Paul Higginbottom SALES) writes: >>What they need are fewer bells and whistles, and more intelligence. >> -Matt > >I think you overestimate the TV viewing audience. A survey once declared >that the maturity level of the TV audience is on average the same as >that of a 12 year old. > Paul. Doesn't anybody remember a Python sketch from the days of yor, the two old women staring at the telly (with the penguin on top) watching a commercial. At the end of the commercial, one of them cackles: "oooh, they think we're idiots" and the other replies: "but we ARE". -- Richard J. Sexton INTERNET: richard@gryphon.CTS.COM UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, ihnp4, nosc}!crash!gryphon!richard "It's too dark to put the keys in my ignition..."
flax@suadb.UUCP (Jonas Flygare) (10/17/87)
in article <8710130223.AA15695@cory.Berkeley.EDU>, dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) says: > >>The A500 commercial begins with monitors coming out of the "primordial > most of the viewing audiance can hear. The guy's voice made the machine sound > like a toy... inflections in the wrong place, too forced and unnatural. > Personally I think it hurt the machine more than it helped it. I dunno, but > I have the feeling that somebody isn't *thinking* over there in the > advertisement department. > > What they need are fewer bells and whistles, and more intelligence. > Hmm, haven't seen anything.. (Don't usually get US programs piped into my good old TUbe here in Sweden.. ;-) But it sounds just like what happened at the last exhibition/convention/whatever (my english failed here, I'm afraid..) where ANYONE who wanted to talk to the swedish Amiga/CBM-people had to fight/ push/shovel and/or bribe all the kids to move.. Wish they would separate the booth in two parts, one for showing the amiga as a toy, and one for people wanting to talk business. I guess that if any seriousminded businesspeople wanted to see the machine, they would have second thoughts upon seeing those kids screaming/jumping/etc.. As for me myself, I use my amiga, and really like it. But I don't go to a computer exhibition (is faire the right word??? ;-) to see the hottest games or music toys being displayed. I go there to find out what hardware/software is available for my machine. This was a semi-flame at the people responsible, and also letting out some steam due to long waiting for programs/hardware.. And i don't really mind kids playing computer games. But don't mix kids/business in the Amiga booths.. Because the kids take over! -- | "Go to the Huntington Gallery and hold a razor blade a quarter of | | an inch away from "The Blue Boy" and shout "Ding dong, ding dong...""| | flax@suadb.UUCP (Jonas Flygare) | | jonasf@kuling.UUCP |
kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) (10/17/87)
In article <2525@cbmvax.UUCP> higgin@cbmvax.UUCP (Paul Higginbottom SALES) writes: >in article <2785@xanth.UUCP>, kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) says: >>[me] > [Paul] >Disclaimer: These are obviously personal opinions on my part. >>But, you don't really believe for a minute that the potential >>customers for a $600 toy that actually requires cerebration and >>participation forms a one to one map with the set of average couch >>potato vidiots who also happen to see your efforts? >I absolutely do! We didn't sell 7 million C64s to intellectuals. And >the C64 is basically a more difficult machine to use than the Amiga. >Now I mean USE and not PROGRAM. > Paul. Somehow I seem to have a lot more respect for your customer base than you do! ;-) I envision something more like: * = vidiot mental capabilities (100's of millions of 'em) ^ = C64 purchasers mental capabilities (7 millions of 'em) * * * * * * * * * * * * ^* * ^ ^* * ^ ^* * ^ ^ * * ^ ^ * * ^ ^ * * ^ ^ * There's plenty of room for computer users without aiming at the lowest common denominator, Paul. They're there too, but if you aim for them, they won't buy, and the folks you want to buy will be turned off by your ad aimed at the mental midgits. Folks like to think that you think that they're smart, even when it's not true. What are your ads telling them that you think of them? Kent, the man from xanth. His expression lit up. "Hey, you wouldn't be a dope smuggler, would you?" Rail looked confused. "Why would anyone wish to smuggle stupidity when there is so much of it readily available?" -- Alan Dean Foster, GLORY LANE
kim@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kim DeVaughn) (10/18/87)
In article <2495@cbmvax.UUCP> higgin@cbmvax.UUCP (Paul Higginbottom SALES) writes: >>What they need are fewer bells and whistles, and more intelligence. >> -Matt > >I think you overestimate the TV viewing audience. A survey once declared >that the maturity level of the TV audience is on average the same as >that of a 12 year old. > >You, Matt, are clearly more intelligent that the average viewer. >In TV in 30 seconds, it's really tough to convey much beyond enforcing >NAME recognition. Sorry Paul, I can't quite agree with you on this. For example, there is a recent ad out for the ST that is VERY effective, provides decision making information and name recognition, and looks like it was rather inexpensive to produce. It doesn't resort to hype or glitz, nor mystical, fog-shrouded images, nor etheral voices to make it's point. The commercial opens with an ST sitting along side a Mac. The professional sounding voice then compares some aspects of the two machines. Paraphrased: "The ST's screen is larger than the Mac's." "And in color." [shows the same 3D histograms on both machines, the ST in color, of course] "Useful for drawing fruit." [shows Apple logo on both machines, the ST in color, of course] "The ST plays great music with it's MIDI ..." [various music, shown with the program displaying a score] "Both machines have a mouse." "And a simple, powerful user interface/operating system." "How much more does the ST cost?" "HALF as much!" [cut to local dealer ... in this case Federated] (There were a couple other comparative points in the commercial, but I don't recall them ... amount of memory may have been one.) I dunno if this is Atari's own commercial, or Federated's (moot point), but I found it to be quite effective ... particularly the last line after having seen the side-by-side comparison in which the ST was shown to outperform the Mac. And I don't think it took a high-powered Madison Avenue whiz-kid to come up with it, either. Now I don't want to throw cold water on your efforts, because y'all actually *are* starting to advertise, but I'd really like to see you do some *quality* stuff, and avoid the "gee whiz" kind of hype. Properly presented, with some factual information, the Amiga can sell itself. Comparing Amy with other machines could be a particularly effective way to show off some of her unique features. And when I say "features", I do NOT mean the ability to display a bouncing ball, or other such demos ... few people spend hundreds of $$$'s to do that kind of thing. I DO mean showing them what multitasking really *is* in meaningful ways, and how you can *use* the powerful graphic capabilities, and how expandable the machine is, etc. Oh yes, and PRICE ...! /kim -- UUCP: kim@amdahl.amdahl.com or: {sun,decwrl,hplabs,pyramid,ihnp4,uunet,oliveb,cbosgd,ames}!amdahl!kim DDD: 408-746-8462 USPS: Amdahl Corp. M/S 249, 1250 E. Arques Av, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 CIS: 76535,25
dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (10/18/87)
>You, Matt, are clearly more intelligent that the average viewer. >In TV in 30 seconds, it's really tough to convey much beyond enforcing >NAME recognition. Even the most stupid of viewers is comparitive. Relative to most Apple and IBM advertising I've seen, that A500 spot was a disastrous! The idea isn't to lower yourself to that level of stupidity, but to cause such people to raise themselves to your level (or at least to make them think they are). -Matt
higgin@cbmvax.UUCP (Paul Higginbottom SALES) (10/19/87)
in article <2834@xanth.UUCP>, kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) says: > What are your ads telling them that you think of them? I think they're simply trying to tell people that the Commodore-Amiga offers the best graphics and computing power combination at its price. We have positioned the A500 as "the best home computer." To convey details about multi-tasking, etc... would take way more than 30 seconds. You just can't fit that much into a commercial. So visual imagery to convey the graphics of the Amiga, and a message about a "new dawn rising" sort of... Paul. Disclaimer: I have to disclaim these opinions as my own and not necessarily those of Commodore.
lishka@uwslh.UUCP (Christopher Lishka) (10/21/87)
In article <2539@cbmvax.UUCP> higgin@cbmvax.UUCP (Paul Higginbottom SALES) writes: > >To convey details about multi-tasking, etc... would take way more than >30 seconds. You just can't fit that much into a commercial. >So visual imagery to convey the graphics of the Amiga, and a message >about a "new dawn rising" sort of... > > Paul. Oh, I don't know. A quick idea comes to mind (that would use less than 30 seconds): Fade into a screen with three Macintoshes on the left, three Ataris on the right, and one Amiga in the middle. A voice says something like: "to run three programs at once, you need three Macintoshes, or three Ataris, or only ONE Amiga 500." Then add some catchy slogan like, "why limit yourself to one program at a time?" or so, you know, elaborate on that. Sure, the viewer may say, "what the h*ll does that mean?", but it would give her/him further motive to go check out the *real* facts, and he would see that the commercial wasn't lying. The commercial wouldn't even need to mention the word "multitasking," just the concept. Just a thought... -Chris -- Chris Lishka /lishka@uwslh.uucp Wisconsin State Lab of Hygiene <-lishka%uwslh.uucp@rsch.wisc.edu "What, me, serious? Get real!" \{seismo, harvard,topaz,...}!uwvax!uwslh!lishka
phil@titan.rice.edu (William LeFebvre) (10/25/87)
Amiga and advertising are mutually exclusive terms, but... check out the November 1987 issue of "High Fidelity", way back there on page 81. It's a full-page color advertisement for the 500! That's great........but in "High Fidelity"? I guess they assume videophiles read the mag. BTW: I don't subscribe to it. That issue was given to me by a friend. <-> Still waiting for my second internal disk drive! Grind, eject, grind, eject, grind, eject,..... William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University <phil@Rice.edu>
peter@sugar.UUCP (10/28/87)
Scene of someone in kitchen talking to a kid while making dinner. Scene of someone in an office working at desk, making notes while talking on the phone... "You can do more than one thing at a time..." Scene of someone sitting waiting for Mac to get done printing. Scene of someone waiting for a PC to recalculate a spreadsheet. "Why can't your computer?" Scene of someone with an Amiga, hits a few keys, pulls open another window with a mouse, starts working, printer starts going. "Well now it can..." -- -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter -- Disclaimer: These U aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.
mike@ames.UUCP (11/01/87)
In article <278@uwslh.UUCP> lishka@uwslh.UUCP (Christopher Lishka) writes: >In article <2539@cbmvax.UUCP> higgin@cbmvax.UUCP (Paul Higginbottom SALES) writes: (one man's idea to demonstrate multitasking) >Fade into a screen with three Macintoshes on the left, three Ataris on >the right, and one Amiga in the middle. A voice says something like: >"to run three programs at once, you need three Macintoshes, or three >Ataris, or only ONE Amiga 500." Then add some catchy slogan like, >"why limit yourself to one program at a time?" or so, you know, >elaborate on that. > >Sure, the viewer may say, "what the h*ll does that mean?", but it >would give her/him further motive to go check out the *real* facts, >and he would see that the commercial wasn't lying. The commercial >wouldn't even need to mention the word "multitasking," just the concept. > >Just a thought... > > -Chris As an extention to Chris' ad, you have the "same" software running on the 3 Macs, and STs, such as a bar chart (gag!) program, MacPaint/Neochrome, and perhaps a wordprocessor. Then on the Amy you have DPaint only on the screen. But then as the cymbals crash, and the announcer proclaimes that multitasking is here, we see the DPaint screen yanked down to reveal the Barchart, then that slides down to reveal WPerfect, or some such thing. If you wanted to get slightly corny, you could have one person on the mac bouncing between the 3 machines, while a Amigazoid is doing his thing. Then the Macinphile starts taking notice of the Amiga, goes back to his stuff, gets angry, looks back at the Amiga, and sez "Gee, I wish I could do that!". Then the announcer s sez "But you can, with an Amiga 500." -- *** mike (powered by M&Ms) smithwick *** "ever felt like life was a game, and someone gave you the wrong instruction book?" [discalimer : nope, I don't work for NASA, I take full blame for my ideas]
rodney@auc.UUCP (Rodney Ricks) (11/06/87)
For those looking for Amiga Ads... I saw an Ad for the 500 in the latest Omni magazine. I believe its in the area of an article about "The Science of Imagination". Also, a story on last night's Channel 5 news was about labs detecting radon contamination in homes. They showed quick scenes of two computers being used in the labs. The first looked like a Mac II, until I put on my glasses and realized that it was an Amiga 1000. The second one that they showed was an IBM PC (yawn). So, Commodore, where are all of the TV ads??? I've heard about them, but I haven't seen any yet. Any chance that someone could tell us what shows these ads are going to be on? NO WARRANTY EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED Rodney Ricks Morehouse College, Atlanta University Center
thomas@sertne.Dayton.NCR.COM (Scott A. Thomas) (11/06/87)
In article <32151@auc.UUCP> rodney@auc.UUCP (Rodney Ricks) writes: >For those looking for Amiga Ads... > > Delete stuff...... > >NO WARRANTY EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED > >Rodney Ricks > Morehouse College, Atlanta University Center I saw in the most recent copy of PC WEEK an ad by Commadore. This ad is asking for people to become Amiga dealers. I gives six reasons why you should sell Amigas. These include desktop publishing, desktop video, use in live presentations, CAD/CAM, and the fact that the A2000 is Strictly a business type machine. It is a fairly nice advertisement that tastefully shows the Amiga and some of what it can do. Maybe they can get the dame people to do some good TV ads for them to. -- Scott A. Thomas CSNET S.Thomas@sertne.Dayton.NCR.COM NCR Corporation ARPA S.Thomas%Dayton.NCR.COM@relay.cs.net Dayton, OH 45479 Disclaimer: These are only my thoughts and not Voice: (513)865-8119 necessarily my employers.