rminnich@udel.UUCP (10/28/87)
Just got a look at a MAC II. Nice box. I do not like it as much as my amiga but there are individual things i like a lot better, one of which is the monitor. Can anyone explain: 1) What is the refresh rate (i.e. did they get that nice display with 60 hz.?) 2) is it a long persistence monitor? 3) I am told it is a Sony- what model is it most like?(i.e. KV1311,etc.) Thanks, ron -- ron (rminnich@udel.edu)
farren@gethen.UUCP (10/30/87)
In article <642@louie.udel.EDU> rminnich@udel.EDU (Ron Minnich) writes: >Just got a look at a MAC II. Nice box. I do not like it as much >as my amiga but there are individual things i like a lot better, one >of which is the monitor. Can anyone explain: >1) What is the refresh rate (i.e. did they get that nice display > with 60 hz.?) The refresh rate may or may not be 60 Hz, but the horizontal frequency is certainly not 15KHz, the NTSC value. Probably about twice that, 30 KHz or so. This figure, rather than the refresh rate, is what determines how much a monitor can display on one frame - interlace mode on the Amiga splits a screen up into two frames, which introduces interlacing and all of its flicker problems. >2) is it a long persistence monitor? No, it doesn't need to be. See above. >3) I am told it is a Sony- what model is it most like?(i.e. KV1311,etc.) It is a Sony, but I don't know what model. I do know that it has been tweaked considerably in order to work perfectly with the existing Apple video card, which is why it looks so nice. Similar tweaking could probably be done with a similar monitor to get similar results on the Amiga, especially with a scan converter card to get rid of interlacing. -- ---------------- Michael J. Farren "... if the church put in half the time on covetousness unisoft!gethen!farren that it does on lust, this would be a better world ..." gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa Garrison Keillor, "Lake Wobegon Days"
fnf@mcdsun.UUCP (Fred Fish) (10/31/87)
In article <267@gethen.UUCP> farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes: >In article <642@louie.udel.EDU> rminnich@udel.EDU (Ron Minnich) writes: >>Just got a look at a MAC II. Nice box. I do not like it as much >>as my amiga but there are individual things i like a lot better, one >>of which is the monitor. Can anyone explain: >>1) What is the refresh rate (i.e. did they get that nice display >> with 60 hz.?) > >The refresh rate may or may not be 60 Hz, but the horizontal frequency >is certainly not 15KHz, the NTSC value. Probably about twice that, >30 KHz or so. This figure, rather than the refresh rate, is what >determines how much a monitor can display on one frame - interlace >mode on the Amiga splits a screen up into two frames, which introduces >interlacing and all of its flicker problems. From the Appendix of the AppleColor RGB Monitor manual: Picture tube: 13-inch viewable diagonal .25 mm aperture grille pitch Trinitron CRT Input Signals: Red, green, and blue video signals using RS-343 standard. Composit sync., negative going TTL User controls: Power switch (back panel) Degauss switch (back panel) Brightness, with detent reference (right side) Contrast (right side) V-twist misconvergence adjustment (back panel) H-stat misconvergence adjustment (back panel) Scanning Frequencies: 35.000 Khz horizonal 66.7 Hz vertical Video bandwidth: +/- 1.0db to 23 MHz Resolution: 640 horizonal pixels by 480 vertical lines Active video display: Adjusted at the factory to produce an active video area of 235 mm horizontal by 176 mm vertical. The remainder of the screen is used for the dark border around the display. Weight: 34 lbs including video cable and power cord Power requirement: 160 watts maximum Input voltage: 50-60Hz, 85-270 Vrms, self-configuring Operating temp: 10 deg C to 35 deg C (50-95 deg F) Operating Humidity: 90 % maximum, non-condensing Operating Altitude: 10,000 feet maximum (!!! -Fred) Warm-up time: 20 minutes to meet all specifications. Input signal Jack: DA-15 style connector 1 Red video return 2 Red video 3 Composite TTL sync 4 Composite sync return 5 Green video 6 Green video return 7 (not used) 8 (not used) 9 Blue video 10 (not used) 11 (not used) 12 (not used) 13 Blue video return 14 (not used) 15 (not used) Shell Shield ground -- # Fred Fish hao!noao!mcdsun!fnf (602) 438-3614 # Motorola Computer Division, 2900 S. Diablo Way, Tempe, Az 85282 USA
cheeser@dasys1.UUCP (Les Kay) (11/03/87)
Someone was asking about the Mac II monitor, was it long persistance, 60 cycles, etc., the answer is: No, it is not long persistance. It either uses 60 cycle or faster, I forget. Its bandwidth is 37mh. It is most like the Sony MultiSync monitor, only higher preformance. -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Bing, Master (cheeser) ...ihnp4!hoptoad!dasys1!cheeser "Pereant, iniquit, qui ante nos nostra dixerunt!" also "Non illegitimus carborundum!" crash!pnet01!pro-sol!pro-carolina!cheeser
cheeser@dasys1.UUCP (Les Kay) (11/03/87)
In an earlier article, I posted the Mac II color monitor had a hor. band width of 37 mh, I meant, of course, Kh. . . . -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Bing, Master (cheeser) ...ihnp4!hoptoad!dasys1!cheeser "Pereant, iniquit, qui ante nos nostra dixerunt!" also "Non illegitimus carborundum!" crash!pnet01!pro-sol!pro-carolina!cheeser
braun@thumperbellcore.com (David A. Braun) (11/04/87)
In article <> cheeser@dasys1.UUCP (Les Kay) writes: > >In an earlier article, I posted the Mac II color monitor had a hor. band >width of 37 mh, I meant, of course, Kh. . . . > You really did mean 37 Mh! 37 Kh would give you a horizontal resolution of something less than 1! dave
cmcmanis@pepper.UUCP (11/06/87)
In article <866@thumperbellcore.com> braun@thumper.UUCP (David A. Braun) writes: >In article <> cheeser@dasys1.UUCP (Les Kay) writes: >>In an earlier article, I posted the Mac II color monitor had a hor. band >>width of 37 mh, I meant, of course, Kh. . . . >You really did mean 37 Mh! 37 Kh would give you a horizontal resolution of >something less than 1! Actually none of this makes sense, but I think I may know what Les was trying to say. He was most likely referring to the parameter known as 'Hor
wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) (11/08/87)
According to an engineering rep at Sony, the Mac I monitory is exactly the same thing as a CPD 1302, except for the color of the cabinet. Sony can supply a Mac II cable, if you have a CPD 1302. I'm not sure I toatlly believe the Sony rep, as there has been such a long delay in the introdution of the Mac II color Monitor. I got the Mac press kit from a friend at Apple. Here is the spec sheet: Picture tube: 13 inch viewable diagonal .25 mm aperature grille pitch Trinitron (tm) CRT Resolution: 640 dots horizontally by 480 dots vertically Active display area: 235 millimeters horizontal by 176 millimeters vertical (remainder of display is used for border) Input siganls: Red, gree, and blue video signals using RS-343 standard synchronization, negative going TTL Video bandwidth: 23 MHz <---- please note Scan rates: 35.0 kilohertz horizontal 66.7 hertz vertical Controls: Right side: -Brightness, with detent reference -Contrast Back panel -Power switch -Degauss switch -Vertical misconvergence <---- nice touch! adjustment Electrical requirements: Line voltage 85 to 270 volts AC Frequency 47 to 63 Hz Nominal power 90 watts Environmental Requirements: Operating temperature 50 to 104 degrees F (10 to 40 degrees C) Relative humidity: 90% maximum Maximum altitude: 10,000 feet (3,048 m) Fuse protection: The monitor contains internal power line fuse protection. This fuse should be replace with the same type by a qualified service technician Warm-up time 20 minutes to meet all <---- guess waiting for Kick specifications Start isn't so bad :-) Size and weight: height: 11 in. (281mm) width: 13.5 in. (344 mm) depth: 15.2 in. (385 mm) weight 34 lbs. (15.5 kg) Apple part # M0401, includes video cable, power cable, Owner's Guide, and Limited Warranty Statement.
papa@uscacsc.UUCP (Marco Papa) (11/09/87)
From the description it looks that the MAc color monitor is indeed manufactured by SONY, but it is not the same as the SNY CPD-1302. Differences I found from the technical description of the CPD-1302: * Multiscan: Horizontal Sync: 15.75-34 KHz Verticel Sync: 50-100 Hz * Bandwidth: 25 MHz * Dot Resolution: 900H x 560V -- Marco
cmcmanis@pepper.UUCP (11/10/87)
[Another in the Chuck's Video tutorial series ... ] In article <749@neoucom.UUCP> wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) writes: Thanks Bill for posting the specs, here are some formulae one can use to determine the maximum resolution this monitor is capable of and the required parameters of the appropriate display interface. Note that it is the *computer* that determines the display resolution not the monitor. >Picture tube: >13 inch viewable diagonal >.25 mm aperature grille pitch >Trinitron (tm) CRT >Active display area: >235 millimeters horizontal by >176 millimeters vertical >(remainder of display >is used for border) These numbers give the physical limits to displaying pixels on the tube. Because the tube is not *really* a continuous surface, rather it is a bunch of phosphor dots that are excited by the electron gun(s). So dividing out the numbers horizontally, you can put on this tube with a .25 mm dot pitch (.25 mm between dot 'centers') 235 mm of active disply/.25 mm between pixels = 940 pixels per line. Vertically, you can divide 176 mm vertical active area by .25 mm dot pitch and come up is 704 lines. Unfortunately, it is not a perfect world so you will not see this sort of actual resolution out of this tube. The tube is driven by a bunch of electronics that control the electron guns inside, and the fastest they can respond is given by this next specification : >Video bandwidth: >23 MHz <---- please note If you looked at a picture that consisted of white and black dots you might not normally associate this with a frequency, but if you looked at the input to the electron gun that caused this pattern to be displayed on an oscilloscope you would see a 'square' wave. This is due to the relationship between voltage on the electron gun and the brightness of the spot it just hit on the screen. So changes in intensity on the screen are really just a time varying waveform to the electron gun. And the above specification says that this wave form cannot exceed 23 MHz. If it does, then the electron gun cannot respond fast enough and rather than black and white dots you only get grey dots. Now we can combine this value with the next one to find out what the maximum number of pixels the *electronics* can display. >Scan rates: >35.0 kilohertz horizontal This means the beam sweeps across the screen 35,000 times a second. Since we know from the above that the fastest the pixels can change is 23 million times a second the most you could put on a line before the beam moves on to the next line is 23,000,000 / 35,000 = 657.14 pixels. However, since the beam doesn't jump immediately to the next line, you have to allow some time for it to mave back to the beginning of the next scan line. This time varies on different monitors and is usually supplied in the extended specifications as Horizontal Retrace Time. Most monitors I've worked with have a retrace time in the range of 4 to 6 uS (micro seconds). The time the beam spends one line is 1 / 35,000 or about 286 uS. Using the worst case of 6 uS retrace time means 280 uS would be available for displaying pixels, and the ratio (280/286) = (657.14/x) yields 643.35 pixels that can be displayed. >66.7 hertz vertical This is also sometimes called the 'frame' rate since it is also the number of times per second that the entire 'frame' is displayed. Using this information we can calculate how many times the beam will trace out a line before the beam gets dragged back to the top of the display. Simply, (35,000 lines/second) / (66.7 frames/second) = 524.73 lines/frame. Again time has to be allowed for the beam to go from the bottom of the screen to the top which is usually specified as the Vertical Retrace Time. Since we don't have it here we have to pick 'reasonable' values pretty much out of the air. Due to the way monitors are built this number is often related to the horizontal retrace time. However because of the increased distance the beam has to travel it is a couple of orders of magnitude larger. So a monitor with a horizontal retrace time of 6 uS might have a vertical retrace time of 600 uS (.6 mille second) For now we will assume this number is a good estimate and calculate from there. Again, since the frame rate is 66.7 Hz, the time spent in one frame is 1/66.7 = .0149 second and subracting off the vertical retrace time gives us (.0149-0.0006) = .0143. Using the ratio technique again (.0143/.0149) = (524/x), x = 503. Or a maximum of 503 lines. >Resolution: >640 dots horizontally by >480 dots vertically So given that the monitor *can* display 643 X 503 pixels the designers of the Mac Display hardware *chose* to display 640 X 480 pixels. When deciding how many pixels to display other factors besides the monitor's capability come into play. Factors such as memory use, and the monitor's aspect ratio. 640 X 480 is a 4:3 aspect ratio which is the same aspect ratio of the tube, thus the pixels displayed are 'square' when the monitor controls are adjusted properly. So now when you look at the spec sheet for a monitor you can calculate for yourself what the maximum resolution that the monitor is likely to display. Since you can adjust the number of rows and columns displayed on your Amiga, if you know the specs for your monitor you can adjust the Amiga to display the largest possible display on it. Note however that the horizontal scan rate and frame rate are fixed at 15,750 Hz and 60 Hz respectively. --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.