c164-1bj@cordelia.berkeley.edu (Jonathan Dubman) (10/23/87)
The elation in switching from Apple 143K disks to Amiga 880K disks has now worn off, and I am once again becoming greedy. I want the 1.6 meg high-density microfloppies. Apple's new Macs are socketed for the new IWM chip that will support the 1.6 meg disks, and another company that makes half of a personal computer with half of an operating system actually comes with the 1.6 meg disks. The acceptance of the format by the aforementioned behemoths will certainly result in massive price reduction on both the drives and the media in about a year. Just as Jay Miner anticipated the cheap RAM chips, I hope Commodore has anticipated the megafloppy and has been at least keeping it in mind when working on new versions of the hardware and (hint) operating system. Question for AmigaDOS Gurus: (Is that last word a noun or a verb??!) How hard would it be to adapt the software and the (tricky part) disk interface to facilitate the megafloppy? I know AmigaDOS supports generalized devices, so that shouldn't be the tough part. *&Jonathan Dubman Busy Berkeley CS student with a semantic analyzer due Wednesday
grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) (10/23/87)
In article <4534@zen.berkeley.edu> c164-1bj@cordelia.berkeley.edu (Jonathan Dubman) writes: > The elation in switching from Apple 143K disks to Amiga 880K disks has now > worn off, and I am once again becoming greedy. A familiar computer disease... > I want the 1.6 meg high-density microfloppies. > > Apple's new Macs are socketed for the new IWM chip that will support the 1.6 > meg disks, and another company that makes half of a personal computer with > half of an operating system actually comes with the 1.6 meg disks. > > The acceptance of the format by the aforementioned behemoths will certainly > result in massive price reduction on both the drives and the media in about a > year. Just as Jay Miner anticipated the cheap RAM chips, I hope Commodore has > anticipated the megafloppy and has been at least keeping it in mind when > working on new versions of the hardware and (hint) operating system. There is no real significant price difference between the normal and double density drives, at least at the component level. They share the same basic components, but require slightly better heads and electronics. Unfortunatly, the same Jay Miner did not anticipate double density floppies and the floppy disk control function he integrated in the Amiga chipset has some real problems accomodating them. We'll probably support them sooner or later, but it's not a snap-the-fingers operation. -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: out to lunch... Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
thomas@sertne.Dayton.NCR.COM (Scott A. Thomas) (10/23/87)
In article <4534@zen.berkeley.edu> c164-1bj@cordelia.berkeley.edu (Jonathan Dubman) writes: >The elation in switching from Apple 143K disks to Amiga 880K disks has now >worn off, and I am once again becoming greedy. > >I want the 1.6 meg high-density microfloppies. > > > *&Jonathan Dubman > Busy Berkeley CS student with a semantic analyzer due Wednesday My question is why stop at 1.6 meg? I just read that some companies are about to release 3.5" floppy drives that use regular double sided/double density media and will hold 10 MEG!!!!! That's right 10MEGABYTES. These drives have a SCSI interface and a 35ms seek time. They are quoted as retailing for about $500-$700 for the average user and lower for OEM's. The articles I read said that and American company was doing this but several Japanese companies were also working on the format. They also said that 20 MB was not out of the question. The other big plus is that is used regular off the shelf media and not special media like the Kodak drives. I personally cann't wait to get my hands on one of these babies and then I can get a 200+ MB hard drive to go along with it. 1/2 :-) Deliveries are supposed to start in January. -- Scott A. Thomas CSNET S.Thomas@sertne.Dayton.NCR.COM NCR Corporation ARPA S.Thomas%Dayton.NCR.COM@relay.cs.net Dayton, OH 45479 Disclaimer: These are only my thoughts and not Voice: (513)865-8119 necessarily my employers.
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (10/27/87)
in article <4534@zen.berkeley.edu>, c164-1bj@cordelia.berkeley.edu (Jonathan Dubman) says: > > The elation in switching from Apple 143K disks to Amiga 880K disks has now > worn off, and I am once again becoming greedy. > > I want the 1.6 meg high-density microfloppies. ... [How about it?] > Well, maybe. The 2 meg (unformatted) floppies weren't designed into Paula, so it's not as simple as dropping in a new device driver.... > Question for AmigaDOS Gurus: (Is that last word a noun or a verb??!) > How hard would it be to adapt the software and the (tricky part) disk > interface to facilitate the megafloppy? I know AmigaDOS supports > generalized devices, so that shouldn't be the tough part. ... but if you are willing to build your own 2 meg floppy interface card, no big deal. Very similar to adding on a hard disk, and with the same basic problems. You'd first of all need a PIC with the 2 meg controller on in. And a bigdisk.device or something similar to drive it. Nothing the OS would have any problem with. Of course, you'd need new floppies, too, since the current ones aren't the 2 meg kind. If you want the same drive to work for both densities based on the disk plugged in, you'd probably have to do more extensive software modifications. I don't know of anyone working on this just yet, but it certainly can be done now with the proper add-ons under the current OS. > *&Jonathan Dubman > Busy Berkeley CS student with a semantic analyzer due Wednesday -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga Usenet: {ihnp4|caip|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh "The B2000 Guy" PLINK : D-DAVE H BIX : hazy "Computers are what happen when you give up sleeping" - Iggy the Cat
peter@sugar.UUCP (10/29/87)
On the horizon is a 10 megabyte 90mm floppy drive that uses a SCSI interface, I think from Kodak. If you have a 2000 or other IBM-alike you can also use the newly announced Verbatim 3.3 and 6.6 meg 5.25" jobbadoos. -- -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter -- Disclaimer: These U aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.
peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (10/30/87)
In article <2615@cbmvax.UUCP>, daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes: > > I want the 1.6 meg high-density microfloppies. ... [How about it?] > Well, maybe. The 2 meg (unformatted) floppies weren't designed into > Paula, so it's not as simple as dropping in a new device driver.... Now, I might be sucking swamp water on this, but... I have heard that the encoding used on the Amiga 1000 diskettes can be modified to pack nearly 1.3 megabytes on the floopies. It's somewhat akin to the idea of using 16 bit nybbles in 18 bit GCR on the Apple-II instead of 6 bit nybbles in 8 bit GCR. Could you comment on this? -- -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter -- Disclaimer: These U aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.
ins_adjb@jhunix.UUCP (10/31/87)
In article <930@sugar.UUCP> peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: >On the horizon is a 10 megabyte 90mm floppy drive that uses a SCSI interface, >I think from Kodak. C Ltd. has announced its "Removable Media 10.5 Megabyte disk drive." It is designed for ALL Amiga computers. I quote here from the advertisement they sent me: 5.25 inch half height drive manufactured by Konica. 10.5 megabytes formatted capacity. Average access time is 75 milliseconds (their hard drive is 65 milliseconds). Uses standard 5.25 inch quad density (IBM PC/AT type) floppy disks, specially formatted and certified. Reads standard IBM/AT 1.2 megatype and IBM/PC/XT 360K formatted floppy disks. Transfers 10MB of data in less than 3 minutes, using the standard Amiga "diskcopy" command. Uses 48 bit ECC (error correction). The complete system for the Amiga 500 & 1000 lists for $1049.95, and includes case, power supply, and SCSI host/controller. For the Amiga 2000, it's $899.95 and mounts internally in the 5.25 inch disk drive bay. If you already have their SCSI controller, it's $899.95 for drive, case, and power supply. I have NO affiliation with C Ltd., not even as a customer. I'm just quoting from the literature they sent me on request. C Ltd., 723 East Skinner, Wichita, Kansas, 67211. (316) 267-6321 --- Dan Barrett ins_adjb@jhunix.UUCP barrett@hopkins-eecs-bravo.arpa
peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (11/05/87)
In article <5411@jhunix.UUCP>, ins_adjb@jhunix.UUCP (Daniel Jay Barrett) writes: > In article <930@sugar.UUCP> peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: > >On the horizon is a 10 megabyte 90mm floppy drive that uses a SCSI interface, > >I think from Kodak. ^^^^ 3.5" for those guys who don't speak metric. > C Ltd. has announced its "Removable Media 10.5 Megabyte disk > drive." It is designed for ALL Amiga computers. I quote here from the > advertisement they sent me: > 5.25 inch half height drive manufactured by Konica. [etc etc etc] I think we're all agreed that 3.5" isn't the same as 5.25". I hope we're all agreed that 3.5" is an improvement, at least in packaging. (and I used to think 5.25" diskettes were so cute and tiny. Ack) -- -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter -- Disclaimer: These U aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (11/10/87)
in article <930@sugar.UUCP>, peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) says: > On the horizon is a 10 megabyte 90mm floppy drive that uses a SCSI interface, > I think from Kodak. > If you have a 2000 or other IBM-alike you can also use the newly announced > Verbatim 3.3 and 6.6 meg 5.25" jobbadoos. > -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter > -- Disclaimer: These U aren't mere opinions... these are *values*. If you've got a telescope (or just came back from Comdex), you'll see even neater stuff from Kodak. Like a prototype Read/Write optical disk, in 3.5" format (a bit thicker than the magnetic ones) which stores over 50 megs. I could see replacing DF1: with that puppy. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga Usenet: {ihnp4|caip|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh "The B2000 Guy" PLINK : D-DAVE H BIX : hazy "Computers are what happen when you give up sleeping" - Iggy the Cat
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (11/10/87)
in article <942@sugar.UUCP>, peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) says: > In article <2615@cbmvax.UUCP>, daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes: >> > I want the 1.6 meg high-density microfloppies. ... [How about it?] >> Well, maybe. The 2 meg (unformatted) floppies weren't designed into >> Paula, so it's not as simple as dropping in a new device driver.... > Now, I might be sucking swamp water on this, but... > I have heard that the encoding used on the Amiga 1000 diskettes can be > modified to pack nearly 1.3 megabytes on the floopies. It's somewhat > akin to the idea of using 16 bit nybbles in 18 bit GCR on the Apple-II > instead of 6 bit nybbles in 8 bit GCR. Could you comment on this? There was lots of talk on this awhile ago. The MFM format used on the current Amiga floppies was used basically because it's very easy to encode and decode using the blitter. As I recall (it's been awhile), 3 passes encode it, 1 pass decodes it. The end effect of the encode/decode is that for every bit encoded, two bits get written to the disk (actually, flux changes, but you know what I mean). There are certain rules that have to be followed, like no two "1"s in a row, and no more than three "0"s in a row, or something like that. Now, if you sat down and enumerated all of the legal combinations in any given word written to the disk, you'd certainly find more than 256 combinations are permissible. The 1:2 encoding give you a valid set of encodings, but not the best set (density-wise). However, if you wanted to write a more compact encoding scheme, you'd probably have to do it via table lookup, rather than blitter, so you'd incur more of a speed penalty. Whether or not this penalty would be significant in comparison to DOS overhead remains to be seen, as does the actual increase in density you could get with a practical system. But it is possible, at least in theory. > -- > -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter > -- Disclaimer: These U aren't mere opinions... these are *values*. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga Usenet: {ihnp4|caip|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh "The B2000 Guy" PLINK : D-DAVE H BIX : hazy "Computers are what happen when you give up sleeping" - Iggy the Cat
kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) (11/11/87)
In article <2706@cbmvax.UUCP> daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes: >[...] you'll see even >neater stuff from Kodak. Like a prototype Read/Write optical disk, in >3.5" format (a bit thicker than the magnetic ones) which stores over 50 megs. >I could see replacing DF1: with that puppy. Where do I sign up? I figure by the time my name gets on the list, starting today, I won't be more that two years backordered. Do they have _any_ idea how much of a commercial success such a product would be? I can just seem my 300 disk library cut down to 6 disks. Yum! GIMME! GIMME! GIMME! GIMME! GIMME! GIMME! GIMME! GIMME! GIMME! GIMME! ;-) Kent, the man from xanth.
klm@munsell.UUCP (11/12/87)
In article <2706@cbmvax.UUCP> daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes: > >If you've got a telescope (or just came back from Comdex), you'll see even >neater stuff from Kodak. Like a prototype Read/Write optical disk, in >3.5" format (a bit thicker than the magnetic ones) which stores over 50 megs. >I could see replacing DF1: with that puppy. Yum Yum. Better yet, how about replacing DF0: with that puppy and tossing DF1:? Nope. Sorry. Brain-damaged idea. Need DF1: to read Fish disks and run Marauder. Don't hold your breath. As they say, it's a prototype. I get my paycheck from Kodak, but they don't necessarily tell me what their plans are WRT new technology. (I certainly would like to get my hands on it, though!!!) I can say from experience in a previous life that it's going to be a while before read/write optical media becomes a cost-effective alternative to magnetic media. For one thing, it's sloooowww. And the media is still prohibitively expensive. About 2.5 to 3 years ago I wrote a device driver and co-designed an adapter board for a prototype Panasonic read/write (actually WORM) drive. Your average mass produced audio CD has (I believe) an aluminum substrate as the recorded media. WORM optical disks, on the other hand, use some kind of exotic metal substrate (tellurium sub-oxide?) that is unstable enough that a low-power solid-state invisible laser can blast holes in it. At the time that I was working on that project, we were paying about $400 a pop for 12 inch disks. The drive cost about $20,000. I realize that, compared to the evolution of magnetic media, optical disk technology is making quantum leaps, but it hasn't caught up to magnetic yet. So, save your nickels and dream about the day 5 to 10 years from now when you'll have a gigabyte or more of storage in your desk top work station. And chances are the media will still be magnetic. -- Kevin McBride, the guy in the brace // | Your mind is totally controlled Eikonix - A Kodak Co. // | It has been stuffed into my mold Billerica, MA \\ // Amiga | And you will do as you are told {encore,adelie}!munsell!klm \X/ Rules! | until the rights to you are sold
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (11/13/87)
in article <1362@squeaker.munsell.UUCP>, klm@munsell.UUCP (Kevin [Being Weird Isn't Enough] McBride) says: > > In article <2706@cbmvax.UUCP> daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes: >> >>If you've got a telescope (or just came back from Comdex), you'll see even >>neater stuff from Kodak. Like a prototype Read/Write optical disk, in >>3.5" format (a bit thicker than the magnetic ones) which stores over 50 megs. >>I could see replacing DF1: with that puppy. > > Nope. Sorry. Brain-damaged idea. Need DF1: to read Fish disks and run > Marauder. > > Don't hold your breath. As they say, it's a prototype. I get my paycheck > from Kodak, but they don't necessarily tell me what their plans are WRT new > technology. (I certainly would like to get my hands on it, though!!!) And it actually came out of the Verbatim division. I understand that Kodak proper also was at one time working on R/W optical disks, but scrapped their plans once they discovered what the at-the-time newly acquired Verbatim folks had up their collective sleeve. > For one thing, it's sloooowww. And the media is still > prohibitively expensive. About 2.5 to 3 years ago I wrote a device driver > and co-designed an adapter board for a prototype Panasonic read/write > (actually WORM) drive. Lots of the initial drives were very slow. For example, CD ROMs. They have very slow seek time. They have to, they're not true random access devices, with track/sector addressing like magnetic disks, they're one long spiral, like LPs. All of the modern WORM and other similar optical disks are track/ sector oriented. Now, I don't know about the writing process; that may be a speed limitation when writing, but the read-back should be as fast if not faster than magnetic read-back. > WORM optical disks, on the other hand, use some > kind of exotic metal substrate (tellurium sub-oxide?) that is unstable > enough that a low-power solid-state invisible laser can blast holes in it. The normal 5.25" WORMs are made of some translucent blue substrate over what's probably glass. The Kodak 3.5"s were more metallic in appearance, but I don't know for a fact that they ones they showed were real prototypes. > At the time that I was working on that project, we were paying about > $400 a pop for 12 inch disks. The drive cost about $20,000. 5.25" SCSI Worms are real close to magnetic media in price. Of course, 300-600 megabyte hard disk drives aren't all that cheap these days either. And of course, they are only write-once. CD ROM driver are very reasonable. > So, save your nickels and dream about the day 5 to 10 years from now when > you'll have a gigabyte or more of storage in your desk top work station. > And chances are the media will still be magnetic. Now THERE you go! Though there are lots of folks out there who'd like you to think that by then, the storage will be optical. If its a gig or so, and cheap enough to go in my A4000 or A5000 or whatever, I really don't care how it's done, personally. > Kevin McBride, the guy in the brace // | Your mind is totally controlled > Eikonix - A Kodak Co. // | It has been stuffed into my mold > Billerica, MA \\ // Amiga | And you will do as you are told > {encore,adelie}!munsell!klm \X/ Rules! | until the rights to you are sold -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga Usenet: {ihnp4|caip|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh "The B2000 Guy" PLINK : D-DAVE H BIX : hazy "Computers are what happen when you give up sleeping" - Iggy the Cat