mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (10/27/87)
This time, I'm not going to vent steam at CBM. I'm going to explain in simple words what bothers me about what they are doing. But first - >> Cripes! I am sick of hearing all this bellyaching about the A1000<->A2000 >> upgrade. My fault. My first flame caught the upgrade as an innocent bystander. Well, mostly innnocent bystander. The upgrade *is* a good deal. CBM is offering you between two and three times the street value of your A1000 in trade, and they probably can't get that much out of it. I apologize for having stirred that bit of trouble up. Of course, the A2000 is in many ways an *inferior* machine to the A1000. Mostly because someone decided it had to have the look and feel of the IBM PC. As a result, I ignored the ugprade offer when it showed up. After all, I wouldn't be willing to trade my A1000 for an identically configured A2000, why should I *pay* to get a less-well configured machine? But then George had to go and say: > I would also point out that Commodore is keeping the brave souls who > bought the A1000 in mind by offering them and only them the special > A1000 -> A2000 upgrade deal. This deal may or may not appeal to you, > but please comtemplate what it suggests about Commodore's plans for > the future... I did go and contemplate Commodore's plans for the future. I recalled what Apple did to the Lisa after their upgrade program. I remember what my friends who had VIC-20s had to say after the C64 came out. After all, Bob Page says: >> Even *I* can't believe that CBM would be so silly as to alienate all >> their A1000 owners. I could. Especially since they are taking some pains to see to it that there aren't that many A1000 owners out there. I don't know what they have in mind. I suspect a hardware upgrade that won't work on the A1000, followed by a software upgrade that won't work on non-upgraded hardware. This will quickly leave A1000 owners in the same shape as people who haven't upgraded to KS1.2. In other words, I got really nervous. So nervous, in fact, that I decided that $1000 to get a machine that wasn't gong to be "orphaned by desertion" was probably worth it. If I could move my memory to the A2000, I'd upgrade. Much as I detest the packaging on the A2000, I'd consider it worth it to avoid whatever CBM has in mind. Except CBM changed the form factor, so the expansion memory that I've already bought twice won't work. Makes it much less attractive. I told some people who had being thinking about an Amiga about the form factor change, and got back the reply "So CBM still has a death wish, huh?" Haven't heard since from them about an Amiga. I said some nasty things about CBM because of that form factor change. I said even nastier things about DEC when they changed buses (they have three peripheral device buses now), to a *proprietary* bus architechture. One for which they won't sell certain types of cards I need. One for which the slowed down the specs on the Unibus so the bus adapters will work. Hold on a second? Bus adapters? What's that? Just what you'd think it is. An adapter that plugs into the new bus so I can run old cards on it. While DEC is in general giving their customers a much nastier time than CBM, they *still* provided a facility so that old peripheral controllers will work on the new hardware. We took tape controllers out of our creaking old 11/70s, and plugged them into bus adapters on our brand-spanking-new top-of-the-line 8800s. We can use them. Basically, CBM made two serious mistakes with the A2000 and the A500. On the A500, they moved the expansion slot so that A1000 expansion would have hell working with it. On the A2000, they failed to provide an expansion slot. Sure, the internal bus is nice. But there's no way to put (expensive) old cards into it. It would have been *much* nicer to your customers to forget the upgrade offer (I expect that the A2000 will be available for the $1300 price people are paying for one shortly, anyway), make it possible to use A1000 SOTS cards on the A2000, and announce (then) that the next generation of machines wouldn't have any SOTS support. Making the A500 work with A1000 products would have left A500 buyers a reasonable upgrade path to the A2000. CBM is trying to market the Amiga as if it were a toy (aka the C64 and vic-20). I'd suggest they consider it as a real computer, and look at what the people who are making a living selling (Sun, DEC & IBM mainframes) such are doing about peripherals. CBM would do well to copy those companies, rather than continuing the strategies that worked with the VIC-20 and C64. <mike -- The sun is shining slowly. Mike Meyer The birds are flying so low. mwm@berkeley.edu Honey, you're my one and only. ucbvax!mwm So pay me what you owe me. mwm@ucbjade.BITNET
andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) (10/27/87)
In article <5634@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: > >This time, I'm not going to vent steam at CBM. I'm going to explain in >simple words what bothers me about what they are doing. But first - > > >In other words, I got really nervous. So nervous, in fact, that I >decided that $1000 to get a machine that wasn't gong to be "orphaned >by desertion" was probably worth it. If I could move my memory to the >A2000, I'd upgrade. Much as I detest the packaging on the A2000, I'd >consider it worth it to avoid whatever CBM has in mind. > >Except CBM changed the form factor, so the expansion memory that I've >already bought twice won't work. Makes it much less attractive. I could *swear* the net hashed this out at great length when we announced the new form factor, around September 1986. Mike, where were you ? > >I told some people who had being thinking about an Amiga about the >form factor change, and got back the reply "So CBM still has a death >wish, huh?" Haven't heard since from them about an Amiga. > >I said some nasty things about CBM because of that form factor change. What I always said was that this time Commodore was putting money into the form factor, so it was much less likely to change again. Surprisingly, many people accept that logic :-) >Hold on a second? Bus adapters? What's that? You mean, like the 2000-and-1 ? You know, the thing of Perry's that lets you plug both Zorro I and Zorro II cards into an A1000 ? And, once again, I repeat: It is possible to plug both types of cards into an A1000 'bare' Zorro box (just remove the front) >Basically, CBM made two serious mistakes with the A2000 and the A500. >On the A500, they moved the expansion slot so that A1000 expansion >would have hell working with it. Still works the same, though. >On the A2000, they failed to provide >an expansion slot. Sure, the internal bus is nice. But there's no way >to put (expensive) old cards into it. Unless you run a ribbon cable over to a Zorro I box. > >It would have been *much* nicer to your customers to forget the >upgrade offer (I expect that the A2000 will be available for the $1300 >price people are paying for one shortly, anyway), make it possible to >use A1000 SOTS cards on the A2000, and announce (then) that the next >generation of machines wouldn't have any SOTS support. I strongly disagree. Some SOTS products have given Amiga owners (and us) no end of trouble. Because they do violate Zorro specs. Automatically. (A very few have been carefully enough designed so they work well; But it seems to be non-trivial to design a SOTS box (which violates Zorro spec) and works well. >Making the A500 >work with A1000 products would have left A500 buyers a reasonable >upgrade path to the A2000. > I added a stand to my A500, and was able to plug a 2 Meg SOTS on fairly easily. (Add a bigger power supply if you try it at home :-) ) > <mike Bottom line mike...there are many ways for you to have it all. (None may be acceptable to you; but there *are* a number of ways to do what you want) andy (I *still* can't believe this is when the form factor change hit home for you!) -- andy finkel {ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy Commodore-Amiga, Inc. "Interfere? Of course we'll interfere. Always do what you're best at, I always say." Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share. I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) (10/27/87)
In article <2632@cbmvax.UUCP> andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) writes: >In article <5634@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: Actually, I forgot...a little ribbon cable or extended board would be needed for an A500 to use a SOTS. (Or make a cut out in the case). (I forgot about that for a minute :-( ) andy -- andy finkel {ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy Commodore-Amiga, Inc. "Interfere? Of course we'll interfere. Always do what you're best at, I always say." Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share. I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (10/27/87)
in article <5634@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) says: > I don't know what they have in mind. I suspect a hardware upgrade > that won't work on the A1000, followed by a software upgrade that > won't work on non-upgraded hardware. This will quickly leave A1000 > owners in the same shape as people who haven't upgraded to KS1.2. Can't happen. Any hardware upgrade would have to happen to ALL systems out there if it were to be made a viable required upgrade. Very soon now, there'll be as many non-A1000s as A1000s in the Amiga world. Regardless of how upgradable there are, they're all A1000 compatible now. So any new software release would have to include these systems, even if we started shipping some kind of enhanced system tomorrow. Which also isn't happening. There's just ONE operating system for A1000s, A500s, and A2000s. And it's staying that way, enhancements or not. > Just what you'd think it is. An adapter that plugs into the new bus so > I can run old cards on it. While DEC is in general giving their > customers a much nastier time than CBM, they *still* provided a > facility so that old peripheral controllers will work on the new > hardware. If it's an SOTS box, talk to its manufacturer. These were never encouraged by C-A, that's why C-A published the full expansion box schematics and all. Microbotics has an adaptor for their StarBoard for the A2000. Want to run any SOTS box for the A1000 on the A500, add a power supply and a short extender. It'll be turned around, and awkward if it's got connectors coming out the front, but it should work if designed properly. If it's a 100 pin device, it'll work just fine in an A2000, only the casework gets in the way. But you CAN use them. > Basically, CBM made two serious mistakes with the A2000 and the A500. > On the A500, they moved the expansion slot so that A1000 expansion > would have hell working with it. On the A2000, they failed to provide > an expansion slot. Sure, the internal bus is nice. But there's no way > to put (expensive) old cards into it. Most SOTS designs won't work chained off an expansion box. Try it some time. They've got a hard enough time working as a second SOS. I wanted an 86 pin edge on the A2000, but it was shot down for exactly this reason. If the A2000 accepted SOTS, we'd have all the same A1000 problems all over again. Card A from Vendor 1 doesn't work with Card B from Vendor 2, etc. SOTS is a real bad idea, and never should have even been mentioned in the Amiga literature. Sure, it's cheaper to add one memory box that way then to buy a real expansion box, but by the time your second box is purchased, you're loosing money and reliablity with SOTS. And a third is completely out of the question, even if the second works. Most SOTS that pass the bus don't do it correctly, and most SOTS don't work right on a correctly done pass through. The card from factor change was really unfortunate. Cards are the proper way to expand, since they force everyone to come at least a bit closer to the specified way of doing things, which forces them to be more compatible whether the individual vendors like it or not. > It would have been *much* nicer to your customers to forget the > upgrade offer (I expect that the A2000 will be available for the $1300 > price people are paying for one shortly, anyway), make it possible to > use A1000 SOTS cards on the A2000, and announce (then) that the next > generation of machines wouldn't have any SOTS support. I think the time to drop SOTS was before SOTS existed. Couldn't do that. So this was the next best thing. Since last March, at the very least, all A1000 owners have know that SOTS was going away. And it went away on an otherwise A1000 comptible machine. So you don't REALLY have to upgrade to stay in the Amiga family and use nearly every software product you can expect for this generation. And if you want to look further ahead, you can buy A2000 style expansion cards and expect them to work on All Amigas. > <mike -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga Usenet: {ihnp4|caip|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh "The B2000 Guy" PLINK : D-DAVE H BIX : hazy "Computers are what happen when you give up sleeping" - Iggy the Cat
childs@cadnetix.UUCP (David Childs) (10/30/87)
In article <2639@cbmvax.UUCP>, daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes:
: If it's an SOTS box, talk to its manufacturer. These were never encouraged
: by C-A, that's why C-A published the full expansion box schematics and all.
One word here: Amiga500
: If the A2000 accepted SOTS, we'd have all the same A1000 problems all over
: again. Card A from Vendor 1 doesn't work with Card B from Vendor 2, etc.
: SOTS is a real bad idea, and never should have even been mentioned in the
: Amiga literature. Sure, it's cheaper to add one memory box that way then to
: buy a real expansion box, but by the time your second box is purchased, youre
: loosing money and reliablity with SOTS. And a third is completely out of the
: question, even if the second works. Most SOTS that pass the bus don't do it
: correctly, and most SOTS don't work right on a correctly done pass through.
Same word as above.
: The card from factor change was really unfortunate. Cards are the proper
: way to expand, since they force everyone to come at least a bit closer to
: the specified way of doing things, which forces them to be more compatible
: whether the individual vendors like it or not.
Same word as above.
: I think the time to drop SOTS was before SOTS existed. Couldn't do that.
: So this was the next best thing. Since last March, at the very least, all
: A1000 owners have know that SOTS was going away. And it went away on an
: otherwise A1000 comptible machine. So you don't REALLY have to upgrade to
: stay in the Amiga family and use nearly every software product you can
: expect for this generation. And if you want to look further ahead, you can
: buy A2000 style expansion cards and expect them to work on All Amigas.
Same word as above.
: Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga Usenet: {ihnp4|caip|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh
: "The B2000 Guy" PLINK : D-DAVE H BIX : hazy
In other words:
"If this is true, why does the Amiga 500 have a side connector?"
Look, I don't really mind. I would much rather have SOTS than no SOTS. It
just seems like you didn't prevent the same problem from happening with the
A500 as with the A1000. I already have, a SupraDrive and a Megaboard 2,
so where am I going to put my Magic Sac when it is available?
David Childs Cadnetix Corp. (303) 444-8075 childs@cadnetix.UUCPacs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Tony Sumrall) (10/30/87)
In article <2639@cbmvax.UUCP> daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes: >in article <5634@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) says: > >> I don't know what they have in mind. I suspect a hardware upgrade >> that won't work on the A1000, followed by a software upgrade that >> won't work on non-upgraded hardware. This will quickly leave A1000 >> owners in the same shape as people who haven't upgraded to KS1.2. > >Can't happen. Any hardware upgrade would have to happen to ALL systems out >there if it were to be made a viable required upgrade. Very soon now, there'll >be as many non-A1000s as A1000s in the Amiga world. Regardless of how >upgradable there are, they're all A1000 compatible now. So any new software >release would have to include these systems, even if we started shipping >some kind of enhanced system tomorrow. Which also isn't happening. There's >just ONE operating system for A1000s, A500s, and A2000s. And it's staying >that way, enhancements or not. C= FACT or your opinion? Don't wanna be a jerk but it does matter. >> <mike >-- >Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga Usenet: {ihnp4|caip|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh > "The B2000 Guy" PLINK : D-DAVE H BIX : hazy > "Computers are what happen when you give up sleeping" - Iggy the Cat -- Tony Sumrall acs@amdahl.com <=> amdahl!acs [ Opinions expressed herein are the author's and should not be construed to reflect the views of Amdahl Corp. ]
dclemans@mntgfx.UUCP (10/30/87)
Just to bring up another point of view... For what I want to do, the A2000 is a SIGNIFICANTLY better packaged system. I want to be able to have all expansion in a single box, and to be able to stick that box in an out of the way place (possibly surrounded with sound baffling material). All I want on my desk is the display and the keyboard. As soon as Commodore ships enough A2090's so that my back order is satisfied I'll be happy. (40 meg internal, plenty of memory, etc.). dgc
peter@sugar.UUCP (10/31/87)
Commodore: You say you wanted to discourage SOTS boxes. Yet you didn't provide an alternative. It was quite a while before expansion boxes became available, you know. And when they did they tended to be priced about as high *by themsleves* as a cheap SOTS memory expansion. If you really wanted to discourage SOTS, you should have come out with a relatively inexpensive Zorro box very soon after you started shipping the computer. But you ignored the laws of the market, in this case that bad money drives out good. It's cheaper to build a box that just gives you extra memory (which is what most people wanted anyway) than to build an expansion box as well as the memory card. Picture yourself as Joe User who's just bought an Amiga. Are you going to pay $500 to go up to a meg, or $1000? Well, perhaps it's not too late to correct the situation. Or to keep it from happening to the 500. -- -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter -- Disclaimer: These U aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.
farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) (11/04/87)
In article <1014@cadnetix.UUCP> childs@cadnetix.UUCP (David Childs) writes: [after an article by Dave Haynie saying that SOTS are a bad idea] >In other words: > "If this is true, why does the Amiga 500 have a side connector?" To allow for a properly configured expansion box. Any such box will NOT have the problems that Dave was talking about - he was specifically referring to side-mounted stand alone memory expansions, etc. -- ---------------- Michael J. Farren "... if the church put in half the time on covetousness unisoft!gethen!farren that it does on lust, this would be a better world ..." gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa Garrison Keillor, "Lake Wobegon Days"
alex@.UUCP (Alex Laney) (11/04/87)
In article <5634@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike Meyer) writes: > > I said some nasty things about CBM because of that form factor change. The old form factor probably doesn't fit in the new boxes, but otherwise a bus adaptor would be SIMPLE to design, as the specs are very little changed. Is there a market though for add-on boxes for A2000's to use the 'old' cards? Doubtful. I think that's one reason for no adaptor being available. But that's no reason that someone couldn't design a kit for it. ( Maybe Byte-by-Byte has some spare PAL Jr boxes lying around. ) Also, don't forget the difference in prices in DEC-bus cards and Amiga cards! (At least whoever buys my copy of AmigaDos can use it without paying CBM.) Alex Laney (alex@xicom.UUCP utzoo!dciem!nrcaer!xios!xicom!alex) (dykes are silly)
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (11/11/87)
in article <1014@cadnetix.UUCP>, childs@cadnetix.UUCP (David Childs) says: > [Deleted my anti-SOTS raves] > In other words: > "If this is true, why does the Amiga 500 have a side connector?" For expansion. BUT, and here's the BUT, that expansion should take one of two forms. EITHER a single powered SOTS box, or a real, powered, full Zorro II spec expansion box. A single SOTS box is OK, it's self contained, works by itself. So maybe a meg or two of RAM and SCSI, in a single box. Or something along those lines. If the SOTS box looks at the 86 pin connector like a Zorro box, I don't care what magic goes on inside. BUT daisy chaining SOTS boxes is a very bad idea; that's what's caused all the trouble on the A1000, and why the idea should have been discouraged on the A1000. Due to the mechanicals of the A500, chained SOTS boxes are going to be much more difficult, and that's a good thing. Real expansion boxes are going to be a bit more difficult, too, but not unrealistic. Like, there's already a 3rd party two slot box out that fits underneath the A500. > Look, I don't really mind. I would much rather have SOTS than no SOTS. > It just seems like you didn't prevent the same problem from happening with > the 500 as with the A1000. In the above context, so would I. But not in other situations. Like when I want more than one thing added. I currently have 1 Amiga and 2 PC slots left on my A2000 here at work. That's 1 hard disk, 1 Bridge, and 2 x 2 meg RAM cards, and everything works like a champ. Even with a 68020 card in the Coprocessor slot. You'll NEVER get that from an arrangement of SOTS boxes, much less such an arrangement that actually works, and I only need one power cord for the whole thing. A500 edge signals ARE much more stable than A1000, now that everything's in LSI. But daisy-chained SOTS are something I'm never going to like. If they work for you, more power to ya. > I already have, a SupraDrive and a Megaboard 2, > so where am I going to put my Magic Sac when it is available? Floppy disk sounds like a good place for me, at least providing that the copyright laws that allow you to make one backup for archival purposes also apply to software in ROM as well as software on magnetic media. And also providing that the Mac OS can run from a place that you've got RAM. However, I've been led to believe that the Mac OS wants to see contiguous RAM starting at $000000 and going as high as you like. If that's true, your Megaboard 2 isn't going to be all that useful to you in Mac mode, unless you either add an MMU to your Amiga or write some kind of RAM disk driver for it. But I digress. > > David Childs Cadnetix Corp. (303) 444-8075 childs@cadnetix.UUCP -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga Usenet: {ihnp4|caip|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh "The B2000 Guy" PLINK : D-DAVE H BIX : hazy "Computers are what happen when you give up sleeping" - Iggy the Cat
grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) (11/15/87)
In article <1014@cadnetix.UUCP> childs@cadnetix.UUCP (David Childs) writes: > > In other words: > "If this is true, why does the Amiga 500 have a side connector?" > > Look, I don't really mind. I would much rather have SOTS than no SOTS. It > just seems like you didn't prevent the same problem from happening with the > A500 as with the A1000. I already have, a SupraDrive and a Megaboard 2, > so where am I going to put my Magic Sac when it is available? Because we wanted to have some kind of expansion capability and thought it would be a nice thing if we made it as compatible with the A1000 as we could, given the constraints of the A500 packaging. What makes this different so that we avoid the SOTS problem that developed with the A1000? First, we've included provision for some memory expansion to the you don't absolutly need to rush out and get an external memory expansion device. Second we've said a lot of nasty things about daisy- chains and vendors have had their own share of grief trying to get different combinations to work together on the A1000. I think the ideal A500 expansion will take one of two forms, either a "shoebox" that plugs into the left side of the system and contains a 3.5" hard drive and a bit of memory, or a small A2000 compatible expansion chassies that sits underneath the keyboard. The idea is one box that handles most people's needs, perhaps with internal options. Since I don't have my rose tinted glasses on at this time of night, I'll admit that I still expect to see a bunch of off-the-wall A500 expansion devices, but what can we do? Hopefully many of the people that create a demand for multiple expansion will see the A2000 as the best way to fulfill their desires. -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: out to lunch... Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)