mjw@F.GP.CS.CMU.EDU (Michael Witbrock) (11/11/87)
Keywords: CMU is about to install a computerised bulletin system (actually, another one). It will involve having lots of monitors in the student union giving info about events etc. The way these things usually happen here is that a big blue or big stripy company gives the university the equipment therfore enabling that company to sell lots and lots of computers in the future. Anyway, C-A might like to contemplate the effect of having amigas entering the daily lives of (and doing wiz bang things in front of) the inhabitants of one of the nations (in fact one of the the world's) foremost suppliers of hacker dweebs (and computer scientists). It is also time (I don't want to nag, I'm getting a 2000 anyway...) to start putting discounted amigas in university computer stores (before people are silly enough to buy MACIIs etc). Is there some problem with the 2000, both companies I have been trying to buy one from said that they had been put on hold by commodore? One implied that some bug in the h/w had been found to cause this delay. Please, Please will some one write a superset of macdraw for the amiga. I am forced to use these disgusting machines (please wait half an hour while I look to see if the laserwriter is free...) Specifically, I need a draw program which has filled objects and postscript font support. not much to ask, really. michael
mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (11/13/87)
In article <341@PT.CS.CMU.EDU> mjw@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Michael Witbrock) writes:
<It is also time (I don't want to nag, I'm getting a 2000 anyway...) to start
<putting discounted amigas in university computer stores (before people are
<silly enough to buy MACIIs etc).
Damn straight. I can get a Mac II for $2077. Need to buy a keyboard
for an extra $137. But that comes with hypercard and a SCSI
controller.
Vaxstations are to expensive. But a Sun 3/50 is $3500, plus $1000 for
or so for a disk (from someone other than Sun, of course). Add $300
for a full Unix.
Given that pricing, why should someone your average user buy an A2000?
<Mike
--
Kiss me with your mouth. Mike Meyer
Your love is better than wine. mwm@berkeley.edu
But wine is all I have. ucbvax!mwm
Will your love ever be mine? mwm@ucbjade.BITNETdaveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (11/13/87)
in article <5886@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) says: > > Damn straight. I can get a Mac II for $2077. Need to buy a keyboard > for an extra $137. But that comes with hypercard and a SCSI > controller. Ahhhh, so! So Mike, you're still in school? No wonder you've been flaming so heavily! Now I understand, and I'm sorry for flaming back. No reason to jar you into reality so quickly. Soon enough, you'll finish up there. And you can then stay there, be a Prof, and live in La-La Land for the rest of your life. Now, Profs DO get to make neat thing, and probably invent more new stuff than anyone this side of Bell Labs. But they also only need to invent it, they rarely need to make it pay the bills. And when it does pay the bills, they typically jump ship and form a startup company and get rich. But most folks go on to boring jobs at IBM, GM, and GE. A few of us actually get to do some of the things we dreamed about in school, but without an understanding of the commercial realities of the situation (eg, if this doesn't sell, there may not be a REAL-COOL-COMPANY for me to work for next year), you're not going to make it. For instance, try writing all your own software when you have to also spend 10-15 hours a day at real work. I've tried, and I KNOW how to build a better Emacs (better than MG or Gosling's or whatever) and better spreadsheet and a better video display board. So do lots of people. But I've got negative free time already, and I only sleep 4-5 hours a night, on good nights. That's why 99% of us need the commercial sector; in the hopes that one of those who knows will be able to make something almost as good that I can buy rather than spend a year of time I don't have and make it myself. I've never liked reality all that much, but I haven't found a better solution. > Vaxstations are to expensive. But a Sun 3/50 is $3500, plus $1000 for > or so for a disk (from someone other than Sun, of course). Add $300 > for a full Unix. > Given that pricing, why should someone your average user buy an A2000? SOFTWARE is a good one. If you can write all your own, OK. But for the the rest of us that need to buy it, you can get lots of A2000 software for the extra $2500 or so. Plus, the A2000 is expandable, the Sun 3/50 isn't. And next year at least a few folks will be running their Amiga in the same speed range as the Sun 3/50 for still quite a bit less, and they'll still be expandable. > <Mike -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga Usenet: {ihnp4|caip|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh "The B2000 Guy" PLINK : D-DAVE H BIX : hazy "Computers are what happen when you give up sleeping" - Iggy the Cat
lee@uhccux.UUCP (Greg Lee) (11/15/87)
In article <2760@cbmvax.UUCP> daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes: >in article <5886@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) says: >> ... >> Vaxstations are to expensive. But a Sun 3/50 is $3500, plus $1000 for >> or so for a disk (from someone other than Sun, of course). Add $300 >> for a full Unix. > ... >SOFTWARE is a good one. If you can write all your own, OK. But for the Software is not a good one. The 3/50 comes with lots -- lots more is available free, e.g. TeX, Metafont, X windows. (I don't know about that $300 charge -- I thought full unix was included in the basic price.) > ... >the extra $2500 or so. Plus, the A2000 is expandable, the Sun 3/50 isn't. The 3/50 is expandable for more hard disk space. But watch for product announcements from Sun in the next week or so before getting one. -Greg Lee, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu
mwm@eris.UUCP (11/17/87)
In article <2760@cbmvax.UUCP> daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes:
<in article <5886@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) says:
<>
<> Damn straight. I can get a Mac II for $2077. Need to buy a keyboard
<> for an extra $137. But that comes with hypercard and a SCSI
<> controller.
<
<Ahhhh, so! So Mike, you're still in school?
No, I run Unix systems for UCB. Staff/faculty get the same discount as
students.
<No wonder you've been flaming so heavily!
I already said that you shouldn't confuse acting irrational with being
irrational. Similar comments apply to acting like a student vs. being
a student.
<Now I understand, and I'm sorry for flaming back.
Don't be sorry for flaming back. Do be sorry for not keeping it to the
topic at hand.
<No reason to jar you into reality so quickly. Soon enough, you'll finish
<up there.
Sorry, I finished my degree long ago. Not that I hadn't done work in
the real world well before getting my degree.
<For instance, try writing all
<your own software when you have to also spend 10-15 hours a day at real
<work.
I have. That's how mg got done.
<I've tried, and I KNOW how to build a better Emacs (better than
<MG or Gosling's or whatever) and better spreadsheet and a better video
<display board. So do lots of people.
Yeah - I'm one of them. At least for the software part of it. But if I
never do anything but tweak existing tools into better shape, I never
get to do anything interesting.
<But I've got negative free time
<already, and I only sleep 4-5 hours a night, on good nights.
But you seem to like dealing with the "real" world. Why don't you take
off and market those things on your own? Me, I don't want the
headaches involved with turning them into real products.
<That's why
<99% of us need the commercial sector; in the hopes that one of those who
<knows will be able to make something almost as good that I can buy rather
<than spend a year of time I don't have and make it myself.
True. Amiga did it, but it took CBM to market it. To bad CBM couldn't
do it again.
<I've never liked reality all that much, but I haven't found a better solution.
Try academia, or being independently wealthy.
<> Vaxstations are to expensive. But a Sun 3/50 is $3500, plus $1000 for
<> or so for a disk (from someone other than Sun, of course). Add $300
<> for a full Unix.
<
<> Given that pricing, why should someone your average user buy an A2000?
<
<SOFTWARE is a good one. If you can write all your own, OK.
Ah, but you don't *have* to write your own for Unix (unlike the
Amiga). It's already been done. No matter how much I like mg, real
GNU blows it out of the water. X is free. VC is free. Scheme is free.
KCL is free. Most of the better Amiga PD/PA software started life on
Unix. Of course, if you want commercial software, the Unix market is
much better established than the Amiga market.
<But for the
<the rest of us that need to buy it, you can get lots of A2000 software for
<the extra $2500 or so.
I count $2000, tops. $1500 if you buy your Amiga from a local dealer
(the Sun 3/50 price has that).
<Plus, the A2000 is expandable, the Sun 3/50 isn't.
The inability to go beyond 4Meg of real memory is a pain - but with VM
and lots of fast disk, not insurmoutnable. Most of the rest of the
A2000 expandability is builtin (more serial ports, SCSI disk
controller, ethernet in either thick or thin flavors).
<And next year at least a few folks will be running their Amiga in the same
<speed range as the Sun 3/50 for still quite a bit less, and they'll still
<be expandable.
Hmmm - you really expect to have a 15MHz 68020 + MMU for $500 or so
(you did say "quite a bit less")? How about memory that's 32 bits wide
instead of 16, and running at a clock rate that's not half the
processor speed? Finally, how about a 1200x900 display?
Of course, if you're really into either speed or expandability, the
3/60 starts at about $5300.
<mikedaveh@cbmvax.UUCP (11/17/87)
in article <5938@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) says: > > In article <2760@cbmvax.UUCP> daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes: > Hmmm - you really expect to have a 15MHz 68020 + MMU for $500 or so > (you did say "quite a bit less")? How about memory that's 32 bits wide > instead of 16, and running at a clock rate that's not half the > processor speed? Finally, how about a 1200x900 display? We did just show a 14.2MHz 68020 + MMU, with 2 megs of 32 bit wide, full speed memory. No pricing yet, and though $500 isn't going to cut it, we should still wind up the lowest cost 68020 system around. And you can run the 68881 as fast as you can get 'em (we got some 25Mhz parts in a few days ago). And a 1000x800x2 display; not quite the 1200x900 of the Sun, but then it does show 4 grey levels rather than the Sun's black and white only. And it even plugs into an A1000. > <mike -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga Usenet: {ihnp4|caip|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh "The B2000 Guy" PLINK : D-DAVE H BIX : hazy "Computers are what happen when you give up sleeping" - Iggy the Cat