mwm@VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike Meyer, My watch has windows) (11/04/87)
Yet another round of bitching at CBM about their total lack of an
upgrade path.
Let's get to the important thing first. I claimed that a posting from
a CBM employee asking people to contemplate what the A1000->A2000
upgrade deal means was scary, because so contemplating leads to the
conclusion that CBM is going to do something *truly* nasty to A1000
owners.
That was weeks ago. I've gotten private mail from CBM employees, and
most of the CBM names seen on the net have replied.
None - NOT ONE - has said that no such thing was planned. They haven't
even used the cop-out "To the best of my knowledge, no such thing is
planned." Any of you CBM people care to say that? Better yet, you want
to provide an "insurance" bet on such?
The best that came from them was when I postulated a specific series
of events. Dave said "it can't happen." The key point was:
<< Any hardware upgrade would have to happen to ALL systems out
<< there if it were to be made a viable required upgrade.
I agree, it should be viable on all systems. But tell me about the KS
1.2 that's now required for new software, or the "optional" 256K of
ram (that is required for the blasted TUTORIAL shipped by CBM!!!).
Given that track record, what assurance do we have that CBM won't do
it again, this time with something that won't run on an A1000?
Most of the replies from CBM on the net were just "Shut up" in more or
less (mostly more) polite tones. I got one piece of e-mail claiming
that my posting had internal inconsistencies. I said "point them out
to me" and am still waiting for a reply.
On the other hand, when I complained about DECs (more later) bus
change, the first thing they said (right after "Not so LOUD! You're
hurting my ears!" :-) was "We think you're wrong. Tell us what you
think is broken, and we'll attempt to fix it, or explain why we
won't."
As I said before, DEC is doing a *much* nastier job of screwing
customers with old hardware, but they are at least willing to *try*
and make things less painfull. CBM is trying to pretend that the
customers with old hardware don't exist, with the exception of trying
to turn them into customers with new hardware.
But let's look at some posted examples of what other manufacturers are
doing:
<< IBM changed from the PC bus to the AT bus and announced that most of
<< the PC cards would not be supported in the AT.
One case so far of a company acting as CMB has acted.
<< IBM dumped the PC/AT bus, an industry defacto standard for the
<< micro-channel.
Not a valid case - IBM doesn't dominate the IBM-PC clone market the
way CBM dominates the Amiga market. People are already dumping Zorro I
products for Zorro ][. The MCA has as yet to prove that it's going to
survive.
<< IBM constantly announces new products with only enough backward
<< compatibility to allow exiting users to upgrade before it's too late.
This must be the micro market. The mainframe market tends to have
software hang around for decades. The latest/greatest systems now
support 30 bit addressing - but still run software that uses the upper
8 bits for other things. So, if the micro market acts like that,
that's two cases - both by IBM.
<< TI walked away from away from the home computer market entirely, turning a
<< computer that was a slow as beans, but had a real operating system and
<< real expansion capability into scrap metal and plastic.
<< TI dumped their low-end minicomputer compatible office systems in favor
<< of incompatible PC compatibles.
<< Apple canned the Apple III completely.
<< Apple canned the Lisa and had nothing to offer but the Macintosh, only
<< the MAC II finally comes close in features and market placement.
These are cases of a company dropping a machine completely. It's not
the same thing, and I'll have more to say about that later.
<< Radio Shack changes models every year or so with compatibility a sometimes
<< sort of affair,
But has RS quit carrying the expansion products for the old machines?
In fact, as long as you stayed inside of a "line" (the z80 model toys,
the z80/68K model business machines, and the IBM-PC clones), RS has
only one compatability boondogle that I know of. They made the mistake
of producing a machine that was superior to, but incompatible with,
the IBM-PC.
<< SUN changed their expansion bus between the SUN-2 and SUN-3, did they change
<< it between the SUN-1 and SUN-2 also?
They didn't change it from the SUN-1 to the SUN-2. And there are ways
to make the old cards work in the SUN-3.
<<SUN has decided that some SUN-3 peripherals will not be supported on SUN-4
<< configurations, even though you can plug them in and the software supports
<< them.
Note, _some_ aren't supported. That means you have to run them at your
own risk. Note also that some _are_ supported, even though Sun changed
processors in going from the 3 to the 4. Contrast this to CBMs
complete lack of support for SOTS and Zorro I in the A2000.
<<DEC had three incompatible I/O busses on the PDP-8 family, two or three on
<< the PDP-11, and god knows how many on the VAX family.
I never dealt with PDP-8s, so... The PDP-11 and VAX expansion bus
class will now come to order. Skip to the "class dismissed" string if
you aren't interested in the gory details
Yup, the PDP-11 line has three expansion busses. The micro-11 line
used the q-bus, and only the q-bus. This is also what you find in the
microvax line. In fact, you can turn your micro-11 into a micro-vax by
plugging in the microvax CPU card and installing a VAX OS. I'll note
that there's not much way to move things from the micro* machines to
larger machines, and leave that line of DEC products. From one on,
when I say "PDP-11," I mean the non-micro 11s. Ditto for "VAX."
The smaller PDP-11s (everything but the /70, the never-distributed
/80, and maybe the /60) only had one IO bus, the unibus. Some of them
(the /45, for instance) had two unibuses.
When DEC announced the /70, the put a new, faster bus with more
address bits in it, called the "massbus." They also put had places to
hang unibus adapters in the machine, so you could use unibus
peripherals in the machine. In fact, that was really the only place to
hang serial cards and some others.
Now, the 11s did have a seperate "bus" that the CPU cards and main
memory hung off of. It corresponded to the motherboard in an A1000/C64
type machine. You could put more memory on it, and that was about it.
Then came the Virtual Address eXtension 11, the PDP/VAX-11/780. It had
the same basic architechture as the PDP-11/70 - a bus for CPU cards
and memory cards, plus one or more unibus and massbuss adapters. In
other words, you could yank the boards from your 11, roll out the CPU,
roll in a VAX cpu, plug the new cards in, and go. It would even run
PDP-11 code, if you wanted it to. Of course, DEC didn't support some
cards in the new machine. But people ran them anyway, as they were
better than what DEC would support.
The 750, 785, and 782 all followed this pattern. The 730 had places on
the backplane to plug things, and is best ignored as the abortion it is.
The 8600 and 8650 changed this only slightly, in that you could plug
two 780-like backplanes into the real backplane. This let you get
twice the IO bandwidth from the machine. But note that you could move
unibus cards from an old, cantankerous 11/45 into an
brand-spanking-new 8650, and they would work. In fact, I did that,
except the cards stopped in 11/70s for a decade or so along the way.
With the 8600, DEC also announced the "VAX Cluster" concept. A VAX
Cluster is basically a Sun cluster done right (details upon demand).
The IO "bus" that supports this is the CI, or Computer Interconnect.
It's more of a 70 MB/sec ethernet than a bus. You hang VAXen and HSCs
off of it. An HSC is nothing more than a file server that does nothing
but serve files - no OS needed. HSCs speak to standard DEC devices -
just move the cables.
This is called an upgrade path. It's what CBM hasn't provided between
the A1000 and the A2000.
Now, you get to the latest series of DEC machines - the
82??/83??/85??/87??/88??. These have a brand new bus, called the BI
(Backplane Interconnect). You can hang CI connecters, massbus
connecters and unibus connecters (though you can't run a unibus flat
out on it) off of them. This is the bus that DEC started getting nasty
with. No serial devices for it (buy LATs), it's proprietary, etc, etc,
etc. But you can *still* take cards from the old machines, and have
them work. Just don't expect them to work well.
[class dismissed]
Now, let's see what people have to say about the new CBM machines:
<< Still, a company that publishes a buss standard, changes it
<< while the machine is still being sold, and then replaces it for the
<< next upgrade, obsoleting all the add on hardware (yours and mine
<< included) DOES have a "game machine" mentality. Responsible companies
<< don't do this kind of stuff to their users.
<< Considering [...] Commodore's own history of introducing
<< incompatible machines,
Of course, I've found out that CBM isn't shipping a serious memory
card yet. Just the little 2Meg jobs using 256Kb chips. Filling the
available address space means filling all but one slot of the bus. Of
course, ASDG will sell you a serious memory card. The same one they
sell for the Zorro I, and have been seling for months.
Now add:
<< However, Commodore hasn't been able to ship us the bridgeboard which
<< we ordered over nine weeks ago, although we were assured the day
<< before making the order that "bridgeboards are in stock".
And you arrive at the conclusion that the "easy expandability" is more
hype than fact. At least until the A2000 market catches up with the
A1000 market.
And from "the B2000 guy" himself, we hear:
<< So you don't REALLY have to upgrade to stay in the Amiga family and
<< use nearly every software product you can expect for this generation.
^^^^^^ ^^^^^
Ah, so you won't be able to run *all* A2000/A500 software on the
A1000? Neat, really neat. Of course, it's only natural for a company
to junk an old software standard after junking an old hardware
standard.
In other words, the only company from that nice long list to behave as
badly as CBM has towards owners of their old hardware is IBM. Acting
like IBM is one of the best reasons I can think of to stop dealing
with a company.
As I said before, an upgrade path would have been easy: just put an
A1000 SOTS slot on the A2000. The replies are:
<< If the A2000 accepted SOTS, we'd have all the same A1000 problems all over
<< again.
But only the people who already had SOTS boxes would have those
problems. At least they would if CBM went to some pains to make sure
that people understood the purpose of SOTS. Then again, expecting CBM
to take pains to prevent their customers pain is probably unreasonable
- as witnessed by the pains they are taking to make sure that A500
users don't buy SOTS expansion for their machine.
But we also get:
<< SOTS is a real bad idea, and never should have even been mentioned in the
<< Amiga literature.
<< I think the time to drop SOTS was before SOTS existed.
Of course, this is in the same message as:
<< Want to run any SOTS box for the A1000 on the A500, add a power supply
<< and a short extender.
Or: "SOTS is lousy, and we should never have done it. But we do have a
brand new SOTS machine if you really want it." Unfortunately, the SOTS
interface is on the *wrong bloody machine*.
Then there's this alternative:
<< Imagine if Commodore had released an incompatible machine, like,
<< one that used the 386 instead of the 68000.
<< It could be worse. C= could have died. They could have come out with
<< an incompatible machine. They didn't.
In other words, if they'd given up on the Amiga. Well, I *know* what
the affect of what they are doing now is: the A1000 peripherals market
is drying up as people abandon it for the A2000 market, and we can
expect to see Amiga software that won't run on the A1000. The second
of these is trivial; the first shortens the usuable life of my machine.
On the other hand, suppose that CBM had walked away from the Amiga.
There'd probably be less new software. On the other hand, the people
producing peripherals for it almost certainly wouldn't have abandoned
it as quickly as they did. The first is (once again) trivial. The
second is the mirror of the above - it signifies a shortening of the
usefull life of the machine.
When I set out to buy a machine, I *don't* try to buy something
completely compatable with what I had before. I set out to buy the
most machine I can get for the dollar that will do the job I want it
to do. That's how I selected the Amiga then.
I had planned on hanging onto my A1000 for about four years. At that
point, I'd probably buy a '386 machine because they're going to be
delivering (actually, already are delivering) a lot more bang for the
buck than anything CBM sold, and will be able to do the job I want the
machine to do.
Except now CBM has cut the feet out from under the A1000 peripheral
market. So I either need to upgrade to the new A2000 now, or wait
until I need something that's not on the market anymore, and then buy
a new computer.
Only CBM treated owners of old expansion hardware the same way Reagan
treats the poor. No reasonable way to use it on the new boxes. Guess
how many alternatives that leaves? And then consider the first few
paragraphs in this article, and notice how many paddles I've got to
get out of the creek CBM left me up.
To summarize the above, I would have been better off if CBM had
abandoned the Amiga, rather than introduce a new machine that's has
enough compatibility to steal the market from the old one.
Now, let's deal with some random comments:
<< Nope, Commodore decides to throw it's weight behind the Amiga, makes another
<< big $investment$ and introduces two new products intended to correct the
<< perceived market limitations of the original. One retains the features that
<< made the A1000 attractive to the recreational users, but through tradeoffs
<< like the integral keyboard and separate power supply, can be priced low
<< enough to appeal to a broader user community, and can be sold without
<< complicated technical explanations of why it's really twice as good as the
<< cheaper Atari machines. The other model adds features intended to address
<< the concerns of the professional or business user who sees the computer as a
<< tool or a means to an end.
Of course, there's no upgrade path from the cheaper of the new
machines to the more expensive, or from the old machine to *either* of
the new ones.
<< Now I suppose it's natural for someone bought an A1000 to argue that this
<< was the perfect machine, since it's the one they decided to buy.
No, it wasn't perfect. I spent to much time fighting SOTS, GURUs and
the like to know that. On the other hand, it was a long sight better
ergonomically than either of it's replacments.
I didn't even think that:
<< the Amiga [...] is the coolest home computer by far ever.
I've publicly stated that there were two home computers I'd seriously
consider trading my Amiga for (but both retail for significantly more
$'s), and I've continually pointed out that the Amiga didn't introduce
multitasking to the home computer market. I've even been pointing out
that I can buy a cheaper multi-tasking, windowing system than an A500.
The Amiga doesn't have any *single* feature that makes it a real win.
It just has a large collection of *right* features.
<< Some even like the paint the people in West Chester as either evil
<< beings or dullards who don't understand the difference between an
<< Amiga and an IBM PC!
I never said anything like that. I accused them of not knowing
anything about ergonomics, and being silly enough to build an Amiga
inside of an IBM PC. The second implies that they understand the
difference between an IBM PC and an Amiga.
I've also accused the CBM planning people of not understanding what's
involved in marketing computers. The A1000 succeeded in spite of them.
The A2000 and A500 will probably succeed in spite of the A1000.
<< Boy, a lot of people are flaming Commodore for the 1000 to 2000 upgrade.
No, a lot of people are flaming CBM because they didn't provide an
upgrade path. I introduced the 1000->2000 upgrade deal into this,
becasue that's what triggered the thing. I've already apologized for
that.
<< Like the typical Commodore fanatic the emergence of the A2000 was
<< a threat to my "state-of-the-art" A1000. Immediately I thought about
<< getting CSAs +$1000 tower. Then I looked at the A2000 but sighed in despair
<< as the price shot up close to $2000. Well I finally settled upon a
<< philosophy that I will use when the A3000 and A4000 come about. It
<< essentially amounts to analyzing how much you are spending and what
<< percentage of that money will start going to work for you immediately.
Naw, the A2000 isn't a threat to the A1000. It wasn't even serious
competition, as far as I was concerned. It took about 15 minutes of
typing at the A2000 to convince me that upgrading was a silly idea.
Unfortunately, it only took me about 30 minutes of thought to realize
that CBM probably had something nasty in the works for A1000 owners,
and when the screaming started, they'd just say "So why didn't you
upgrade?"
It *isn't* that I think that the A2000 is a wonderful machine, and I
feel shat upon because I didn't buy one. It's because the market for
cards to plug into my expansion box is drying up, there probably won't
be any new cards, and CBM is apparently up to something nasty. That,
coupled with lack of any kind of upgrade path is what the problem is.
<< John Campbell, a former (and possibly current) editor of Analog once
<< wrote that pioneering amounts to finding new and more horrible ways
<< to die. Amiga buyers, particularly early ones, were pioneers, and
<< as such they risked seeing their investment in the Amiga, in both time
<< and money, die.
Yes, but JWC didn't cover the people benefitting from your pioneering
stabbing you in the back as one of the risks.
And just for those who haven't gotten it yet - the backstab isn't
announcing the A2000, it's failing to provide for compatability to one
generation back. Even MicroShaft does that much!
<< ...and Commodore still has the hackers. If you don't think so then have
<< a look at the cat demo from the BADGE killer demo contest. (and the
<< others too, they're totally incredible)
And how many of them were actually done on either an A2000 or an A500?
<< So, to the people who are bummed out about the minor incompatibilities:
I don't call having to disgard three times the value of the cpu in
peripheral boxes minor!!!!!
<< Commodore is doing a *wonderful* job supporting 1000 users by maintaining
<< software compatibility
But they blew off hardware compatibility. They've introduced a door
for software incompatibilities, and haven't said anything about not
using it!
<< I think that upgrade deal demonstrates a continuing committment to
<< their early customers
I think it demonstrates a commitment to killing the A1000 so the
screams of pain when they shaft it's owners won't be very loud.
<< Incidentally, I was in a Federated here in Houston today. They have a big
<< new Atari display, and the salesman confidently informed me that the Amiga
<< 2000 had been discontinued.
We're all entitled to be able to dream. Odd that an Atari salesman and
an Amiga fan would have the same one, though.
Finally, I've gotten lots of mail from people who assume I *don't*
know about ways to make the A2000 resemble something other than an
Amiga in an IBM-PC box. Some even got their facts wrong.
1) I know I can put a keyboard garage underneath the A2000. Known it
for a long time. It would happen almost as soon as an A2000
arrived.
2) I know that Zorro I cards plug into Zorro II slots; you just can't
close the case. My A1000 gets enough dust in it as is. I'm not
about to run anything with an open case.
3) I know about the microbotics SOTS adapter. It won't work with
any of the expansion boxes I've used because it requires
leaving the cover off. The things I've put in the SOTS slot
almost certainly weigh to much, and would cover several slots
anyway. Not acceptable.
4) I know about the A2000-n-1. To date, it's varporware. But ASDG does
good things, and helps provide an upgrade path that CBM
didn't see fit to provide, so I expect it to appear. On the
other hand, it doesn't solve the problem of CBM producing
stuff that won't run on/in the A1000.
5) I even recall (as apparently nobody else does) a posting by a CBM
employee when we first started seeing that bogus A2000 keyboard
that an adapter so you could use an A1000 keyboard on an A2000.
The bottom line is I made a stupid mistake. I assumed that a company
marketing a serious computer would act like a serious computer
company, even if they'd only sold toys in the past.
Of course, if I'd listened to Ed Chaban (who was the first person I
saw say that the A2000 was what the A1000 should have been), I would
have known that long ago. That's hilarious, all by itself.
<mikedave@csustan.UUCP (david j wells) (11/04/87)
I have been reading this thread just in case something new came up. Nope! Nothing new yet ... (S/N => 0) The amiga 1000 was a (home micro) state-of-the-art when it was introduced. Thus you were buying a leading edge (no TM) computer. One price that you pay for this is that your computer tries to do things that haven't been done (much) before. So some of what was in the system may not have been done the "right" way. In the next generation of amigas, CBM apparently tried to fix some perceived deficiencies in the amiga 1000. Like the incompatable parallel connector, etc. And I am sure that the Zorro form factor was changed for a GOOD reason! However these changes result in some inompatability between the amiga 1000 and the new systems. Don't flame CBM for CORRECTING MISTAKES and improving their product! If you haven't seen this coming for over a year, then what rock have you been hiding under? And if you saw it coming, *why* did you buy the older cards, etc.??? But if you bought the cards over a year ago, then I don't see that you have a major gripe -- you have gotten good use out of them ... Someone said that they bought their amiga 1000 to use for 4 years. Fine, but don't expect your amiga to stay state-of-the-art for 4 years! As far as I know, 3-5 years is a typical time frame for computer obsolescence. So don't plan to get the latest interactive video system for your 4 year old system! (unless there are several million of them in use :-) But too much already!!!! Kwitchyer gripin, woodya? David p.s. personally, I usually upgrade my system after 1 to 2 years. -- David J Wells dave@csustan.uucp
mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (11/05/87)
In article <1008@csustan.UUCP> dave@csustan.UUCP (david j wells) writes:
<I have been reading this thread just in case something new came up.
<Nope! Nothing new yet ... (S/N => 0)
You obviously haven't been reading it closely enough:
<Don't flame CBM for CORRECTING MISTAKES and improving their product!
No, the flame isn't for changing things, whatever the reason. The
flame is for failing to provide a way for the old things to work with
the new.
<I am sure that the Zorro form factor was changed for a GOOD reason!
That reason has already been stated - they couldn't build a reasonable
sized box if they used the old form factor. In other words, they
wanted cards that would fit inside of an IBM-PC. What rock have *you*
been hiding under?
<But too much already!!!! Kwitchyer gripin, woodya?
Oh, eventually. You, on the other hand, should gripe about the real
world, instead of figments of your imagination.
<mike
--
[Our regularly scheduled .signature preempted.] Mike Meyer
The Amiga 1000: Let's build _the_ hackers machine. mwm@berkeley.edu
The Amiga 500: Let's build one as cheaply as possible! ucbvax!mwm
The Amiga 2000: Let's build one inside an IBM PC! mwm@ucbjade.BITNETpapa@uscacsc.UUCP (Marco Papa) (11/05/87)
OK, Mike, you made your point. Believe that there are other people that are *NOT* CBM, and that disagree with you. -- Marco Papa Felsina Software
mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (11/05/87)
In article <299@uscacsc.UUCP> papa@uscacsc.UUCP (Marco Papa) writes:
<OK, Mike, you made your point. Believe that there are other people that
<are *NOT* CBM, and that disagree with you.
Oh, I knew that *long* ago. Right after Ed Chaban said that he liked
the A2000. He's not the only one.
<mike
--
[Our regularly scheduled .signature preempted.] Mike Meyer
The Amiga 1000: Let's build _the_ hackers machine. mwm@berkeley.edu
The Amiga 500: Let's build one as cheaply as possible! ucbvax!mwm
The Amiga 2000: Let's build one inside an IBM PC! mwm@ucbjade.BITNEThah@mipon3.intel.com (Hans Hansen) (11/06/87)
[Line eater ... sick the jerk that killed the A1000
The real STUPID act is the A1000 + $1000 = A/B2000. While on the surface
this seems like a real nice offer, a closer look shows just how stupid it
really is.
1) It dose nothing to broaden the Amiga install base.
2) It KILLED the value of the A1000 ! Buy back your A1000 for $50 !!!
What C= should have done:
1) Offer A/B2000 to A1000 and C64/128 owners for $1300 ... no trade in. This
would have maintained the value of the A1000 while allowing existing owners
a fair "upgrade?" option.
2) Offer a $300 trade in for Atari ST systems, $50 for Atari 800 et als,
$200 for IBM PC/x88 clones, $300 for IBM PC/x86 clones and IBM PC/x88,
$400 for IBM PC/x86.... and then resell these for $50 to $300!
3) Extend the software package deal to all new A500/1000/2000 customers.
4) Allow existing A1000 owners a package deal on the same software.
Items needing fixing by C= :
1) Cheap box, improve the supports, add an option allowing Zorro I boards
to be housed within a CLOSED A/B2000.
2) Extreamly BAD keyboard, take the SAG out... the existing keyboard
has more SAG than an old "NAG"*.
3) Fix the internal clock setup program to allow the user to correctly
set the clock.
4) Fix the hardware incompatability problems that cause programs that work
on a A1000 w/exp RAM to GURU on the B2000.
* NAG : Northwest Amiga Group, Portland OR.
Hans hah@inteloa -or- hah$mipon3peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (11/06/87)
In article <8711040542.AA29099@violet.berkeley.edu>, mwm@VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike Meyer, My watch has windows) writes: > << the Amiga [...] is the coolest home computer by far ever. > > I've publicly stated that there were two home computers I'd seriously > consider trading my Amiga for (but both retail for significantly more > $'s), and I've continually pointed out that the Amiga didn't introduce > multitasking to the home computer market. Then who did? Not counting third-party software for the IBM-PC that doesn't run fast enough to be useful even on an AT? The Radio Shack Color Computer? Talk about being stuck with a dead-end machine. > I've even been pointing out > that I can buy a cheaper multi-tasking, windowing system than an A500. OK. Name it. I hope you're not talking about the Radio Shack Color Computer or the Sinclair Quantum Leap. Those are the only ones I can think of and both are effectively dead puppies. -- -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter -- Disclaimer: These U aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.
andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) (11/06/87)
In article <8711040542.AA29099@violet.berkeley.edu> mwm@VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike Meyer, My watch has windows) writes: >Yet another round of bitching at CBM about their total lack of an >upgrade path. > >Let's get to the important thing first. I claimed that a posting from >a CBM employee asking people to contemplate what the A1000->A2000 >upgrade deal means was scary, because so contemplating leads to the >conclusion that CBM is going to do something *truly* nasty to A1000 >owners. > >That was weeks ago. I've gotten private mail from CBM employees, and >most of the CBM names seen on the net have replied. > >None - NOT ONE - has said that no such thing was planned. They haven't >even used the cop-out "To the best of my knowledge, no such thing is >planned." Any of you CBM people care to say that? Better yet, you want >to provide an "insurance" bet on such? > >The best that came from them was when I postulated a specific series >of events. Dave said "it can't happen." The key point was: > ><< Any hardware upgrade would have to happen to ALL systems out ><< there if it were to be made a viable required upgrade. > Well, lets look at the issues/incompatibilities: They are: 1) Form factor of Zorro I vs Zorro II First, I still can't get over that you're flaming about it now, over a year after it was announced. Anyway... By now it has been pointed out, at length that the cards are electrically/logically compatible. The thing that changed was the form factor between Zorro I and Zorro II. So now you know that you *can* a) use Zorro I and Zorro II and SOTS cards on an A1000 b) use Zorro I and Zorro II and SOTS cards on an A2000 c) use Zorro I and Zorro II and SOTS cards on an A500 I'm not speculating here...I've personally done it. Now, you may dislike the methods used to connect. That's your right. (I don't like leaving the cover off the A2000 either) But the point is, there *is* an expansion path of sorts. It shouldn't matter to you that the path depends on the efforts of 3rd party hardware vendors like Microbotics or ASDG. 2) Coprocessor slot on A2000 Neither the A500 or the A1000 has one of these. Think of it was a new feature of the A2000. 2) Video slot on A2000 3) ROM vs WCS Here we get into an interesting question. The A1000 is equipped with 256K of ram, called the Writable Control Store. Cost/Power/User demand/and other issues prompted us to replace the WCS with ROM. So far, so good. Because the WCS is designed to hold a ROM image, you will always be able to copy the ROM onto a disk, and boot an A1000. Now, here's the interesting part... the address space for the ROM is 512K. What if we were to take advantage of this, and start putting in 512K of ROM into the A500 and the A2000 ? What would happen to the A1000 owners ? Well, I'll tell you. There are two possibilities. One is we make the additional modules available as Workbench disk loaded modules. This would mean the A1000 owner could always remain up to date on the software, while retaining the WCS. The other possibility is for the A1000 owner to *put ROMs into the A1000*. Yes, that's right. Just either remove the WCS, or remap it to another address to use as RAM, and put in the A500/A2000 ROMs. Then your A1000 will be just like the others, at a slight cost in flexibility. Is there much of a problem ? I think not. 4) Fat Agnus enhancements Here's the tough one. While it may be possibly to add a Fat Agnus to an A1000, I wouldn't count on it. Improvements to Fat Agnus probably (note I say probably) won't be carried back to original Agnus. This may cause problems. On the other hand, the Sun 1 blitter isn't compatible with the Sun 2 blitter or the Sun 3 blitter, and this 'feels' to me to be a similar situation. >Most of the replies from CBM on the net were just "Shut up" in more or >less (mostly more) polite tones. Hey, not from me. I've tried to respond to your postings with facts! >I agree, it should be viable on all systems. But tell me about the KS >1.2 that's now required for new software,or the "optional" 256K of >ram (that is required for the blasted TUTORIAL shipped by CBM!!!). >Given that track record, what assurance do we have that CBM won't do >it again, this time with something that won't run on an A1000? I can't believe that *you* actually said this. My jaw drops in disbeief! You are kidding, right ? Or did you mean something different ? Are you saying that you'd like the software authors shouldn't use the new features of an OS ??? Is that really what you mean ? I'm speechless! You're saying that enhancements should never be added because someone *might use them* ? BTW, if you insist that all programs be written to support the the minimum configuration your expansion problems would be solved. Again, do you really mean this, or are you just checking if anyones reading what you're typing ? >CBM is trying to pretend that the >customers with old hardware don't exist, with the exception of trying >to turn them into customers with new hardware. You can only thing this if you ignore everything I've been posting in response to you. >And from "the B2000 guy" himself, we hear: > ><< So you don't REALLY have to upgrade to stay in the Amiga family and ><< use nearly every software product you can expect for this generation. > ^^^^^^ ^^^^^ > >Ah, so you won't be able to run *all* A2000/A500 software on the >A1000? Neat, really neat. Of course, it's only natural for a company >to junk an old software standard after junking an old hardware >standard. This is not a real problem. Dave was no doubt commenting on the imaginative ways that software authors find to break the rules and ensure compatibility problems. (Usually these are called bugs :-) ) Everyone has them. For instance, lets say someone calls ROM routines through the image at F80000. Directly. This person is commiting 2 no-nos...calling ROM routines directly, and calling at the incorrect address. If different ROM ever appears in the shadow area, their program will break. We had a different one just recently...Alert assumed that ExecBase would be down low. (An incorrect assumption, ie bug). Its things like these that Dave was taking about. Moving on to SOTS as an issue: ><< I think the time to drop SOTS was before SOTS existed. > >Of course, this is in the same message as: > ><< Want to run any SOTS box for the A1000 on the A500, add a power supply ><< and a short extender. >Or: "SOTS is lousy, and we should never have done it. But we do have a >brand new SOTS machine if you really want it." Unfortunately, the SOTS >interface is on the *wrong bloody machine*. No, I think you're entirely wrong. The expansive machine should have the card cage. Why ? Because its more expensive to put in a card cage. Second, its not a SOTS interface. It was meant to interface to an expansion BOX, or *ONE* SOTS. Just because we've experienced problems with SOTS is no reason for us not to tell you, a SOTS person, how to make it work with an A500 or an A2000. If you don't want to know, fine, come right out and say so. But why flame at people expressing their opinions, who then go on and try to help anyway ? >It's because the market for >cards to plug into my expansion box is drying up, there probably won't >be any new cards, and CBM is apparently up to something nasty. That, >coupled with lack of any kind of upgrade path is what the problem is. Only because you don't want to adopt any of the solutions offered to you. (only one of which involves changing machines) (BTW, its fairly easy to put an extended cover on an A2000 to keep dust off) >The bottom line is I made a stupid mistake. I assumed that a company >marketing a serious computer would act like a serious computer >company, even if they'd only sold toys in the past. The bottom line really sounds like you've already made up your mind, no amount of help or advice will change it. Which is a shame. > <mike andy -- andy finkel {ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy Commodore-Amiga, Inc. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo." Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share. I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
klm@munsell.UUCP (Kevin [Being Weird Isn't Enough] McBride) (11/06/87)
In article <299@uscacsc.UUCP> papa@uscacsc.UUCP (Marco Papa) writes: >OK, Mike, you made your point. Believe that there are other people that >are *NOT* CBM, and that disagree with you. Right on! Mike, I am sure that there are others who also share your sentiments about this. It's obvious that you are very opinionated (and you're entitled to be that way) and that nobody is going to get you to change your mind. Likewise, those of us who think that CBM is making a good move are also very opinionated. You are not going to change our minds. I sympathize with your feeling abandoned, but Commodore isn't the only company that's guilty of pulling standards out from under users' feet. Data General stuck it to me real good a few years ago with a CPU architecture change that made a whole lot of software break. It took a couple of man months to sort out the mess. They (DG) were discontinuing the older CPU model that I had been using and told me that the replacement model was identical except for the fact that they had put the CPU on a 2 chip set instead of a board. They didn't mention the fact that the new model no longer had any auto increment/decrement registers. BOOM! So, let's drop this horse puckey and bashing of CBM and get back to some real business. When am I going to be able to get my hands on the BADGE Killer Demo Disks? :-) Seriously, though, I feel kind of isolated living in New Hampshire so far away from the user groups where a lot of this stuff comes out. I hate driving into Boston. Hey, Bob Page, what do you do? Ok, so I was a little annoyed when I found out about the serial/parallel change. That's nothing compared to what DG did to me. I'm upgrading to a 2000 even though Future Sound won't work. I got my order in and am busy figuring out where I'm gonna scrape up $800 in the next two weeks. (Omnitek Computers in Salem, NH says that A1000 + $800 = A2000) -- Kevin McBride, the guy in the brace // | Your mind is totally controlled Condition improved, but still // | It has been stuffed into my mold no skiing in sight. (:^[) \\ // Amiga | And you will do as you are told {encore,adelie}!munsell!klm \X/ Rules! | until the rights to you are sold
richc@vaxwaller.UUCP (Rich Commins) (11/07/87)
In article <5788@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: > In article <299@uscacsc.UUCP> papa@uscacsc.UUCP (Marco Papa) writes: > <OK, Mike, you made your point. Believe that there are other people that > <are *NOT* CBM, and that disagree with you. > > Oh, I knew that *long* ago. Right after Ed Chaban said that he liked > the A2000. He's not the only one. > I'm one of the other people who side with the way CBM is going with the A2000. I personally like the A1000 better than the A2000 as it exists now and have no immediate plans for upgrading my machine. This does not mean that the A2000 will not be the superior machine in a few years. It is better to pay the piper now than to continue with hardware that is hard and costly to expand. I've been very disappointed with the A1000 when it came time to add extra memory and a harddisk and feel that my starboard II and Xebec 20 meg harddisk is a kludge to a machine with great potential. If I understand your point of view, its that CBM did not provide an upgrade path for the A1000 owners. Well in my opinion, hardware is cheap and software is expensive (not only money but the time to learn the software). I've got well over $1000.00 worth of software and it is all usable on A2000. I'd suggest you live and love your A1000 until you want a divorce, then buy an A2000. -- -- Rich Commins (415)939-2400 \ /\ Varian Instruments, 2700 Mitchell Drive, Walnut Creek, CA 94598 \/--\ {ptsfa,lll-crg,zehntel,dual,amd,fortune,ista,rtech,csi,normac}varian!richc
richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) (11/07/87)
In article <299@uscacsc.UUCP> papa@uscacsc.UUCP (Marco Papa) writes: >OK, Mike, you made your point. Believe that there are other people that >are *NOT* CBM, and that disagree with you. Ok, Marco, you made your point. I think Mikes points were quite reasonable. After watching the Macintosh debacle of having to pop $1000 every time they expanded what they thought a mac SHOULD have for memory, the last thing I wanted to see was this gonzo bus madness. Z'ats why I have resisted buying any major peripherals (other than RS-232 devices) for my Amiga. So, Mike, say we concede all your points (which I do) what should happen ? Huh ? >-- Marco Papa -- Richard J. Sexton INTERNET: richard@gryphon.CTS.COM UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, ihnp4, nosc}!crash!gryphon!richard "It's too dark to put the keys in my ignition..."
mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (11/07/87)
In article <2696@cbmvax.UUCP> andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) writes:
A mostly reasonable response, but...
<>Let's get to the important thing first. I claimed that a posting from
<>a CBM employee asking people to contemplate what the A1000->A2000
<>upgrade deal means was scary, because so contemplating leads to the
<>conclusion that CBM is going to do something *truly* nasty to A1000
<>owners.
He didn't answer the above comment.
< First, I still can't get over that you're flaming about it
<now, over a year after it was announced. Anyway...
Becuase I had chosen to ignore it (and the A2000) until CBM started
the upgrade deal. Which did all kinds of nasty things to the A1000
expansion market. While I can buy get an A2000 for as little as $800,
none of the dealers I called (10 or so) could sell me a disk
controller for an A1000. Still got some to try, though.
<I'm not speculating here...I've personally done it. Now, you
<may dislike the methods used to connect.
Apparently a method involving cabling to a Zorro I card was posted,
and the article never got here. That's actually reasonable.
<(I don't like leaving the cover off the A2000 either) But the
<point is, there *is* an expansion path of sorts. It shouldn't
<matter to you that the path depends on the efforts of 3rd party
<hardware vendors like Microbotics or ASDG.
It doesn't - except for what it coming from third parties tells me
about CBM as a company.
[Long description of the advantages of the A2000 deleted.]
<>Most of the replies from CBM on the net were just "Shut up" in more or
<>less (mostly more) polite tones.
<
<Hey, not from me. I've tried to respond to your postings with facts!
True. You didn't even ask me to take the complaints elsewhere.
<I can't believe that *you* actually said this. My jaw drops
<in disbeief! You are kidding, right ? Or did you mean
<something different ? Are you saying that you'd like the
<software authors shouldn't use the new features of an OS ???
<Is that really what you mean ? I'm speechless! You're saying
<that enhancements should never be added because someone *might use them* ?
No. I'm saying that I expect an upgrade that's "optional" like 1.2 &
the extra 256K, but can't be done on an A1000. Thus keeping A1000
owners from using most of the software written after that date.
<No, I think you're entirely wrong. The expansive machine
<should have the card cage. Why ? Because its more expensive
<to put in a card cage.
No, *both* machines should have a SOTS expansion. And make bloody sure
that these are tagged as obscolescent. That way, people get two
machine generations (as opposed to a year) to worry about what to do
about expensive expansion products. This means that the replaceing the
expensive stuff is a fraction of the cost of replacing the CPU,
instead of more than it, later. For instance, 4 Meg of memory is $1000
now (for the chips). In three years (which seems like a reasonable
timeframe for the next Amiga) it'll probably be more like $300.
Note that people are already selling memory SOTS boxes for the A500.
So the "what do I do with the expensive hardware?" problem is going to
keep coming up for a while.
<Second, its not a SOTS interface. It was meant to interface to
<an expansion BOX, or *ONE* SOTS.
If it walks like a SOTS, and it quacks like a SOTS, it's a SOTS.
Doesn't matter what you mean it to be - especially considering how
little I've heard about what that slot is for. Does the manual
specifically say that it's for *ONE* SOTS box?
<Just because we've experienced problems with SOTS is no reason
<for us not to tell you, a SOTS person, how to make it work with
Sorry, I've never been a SOTS person. I've avoided SOTS all along. I
got stuck trying to make SOTS work because CBM didn't bother telling
customers that the 86-pin bus being peddled by people wasn't one that
they liked.
<Only because you don't want to adopt any of the solutions offered
<to you. (only one of which involves changing machines)
Let's look at the solutions
1) Run an A2000 with a new memory card.
2) Ditto, with the cover off.
3) Ditto, with a magic cable.
4) Something like the A2000-n-1
5) Try to live with what little is left of the A100 expansion market.
Three only showed up in a reply to the same posting you replied to.
That's three that require a new machine. One that requires a an
expansion box that isn't available yet - partly because CBM hasn't
been shipping cards to test them with.
<The bottom line really sounds like you've already made up your
<mind, no amount of help or advice will change it. Which is a shame.
Right. I've made up my mind about what kind of company CBM is. As I
said before, CBM has forced me to consider buying a new machine about
halfway through the expected life of the old one. An A2000 is on the
list. Keeping the A1000 and ignoring CBM is also on the list. But so
is the Sun 3/[56]0, a Vaxstation, a '386 box and a Mac ][.
Anyone wanna buy an A1000? MiniRack C + 8M/4, Lattice C 4.0, MCC LISP,
Dpaint ][ (unprotected), a complete collection of Fish disks (through
110), and much other random software. Asking $2000.
<mike
--
[Our regularly scheduled .signature preempted.] Mike Meyer
The Amiga 1000: Let's build _the_ hackers machine. mwm@berkeley.edu
The Amiga 500: Let's build one as cheaply as possible! ucbvax!mwm
The Amiga 2000: Let's build one inside an IBM PC! mwm@ucbjade.BITNETbryan@mothra.cs.utexas.edu (Bryan Bayerdorffer) (11/07/87)
In article <1203@omepd> hah@mipon3.UUCP (Hans Hansen) writes: =-[Line eater ... sick the jerk that killed the A1000 =- =-The real STUPID act is the A1000 + $1000 = A/B2000. While on the surface =-this seems like a real nice offer, a closer look shows just how stupid it =-really is. Read this one again; a closer look shows just how stupid IT really is. Hans, is this strident tone just a result of a lack of a more mature vocabulary, or are you given to making up for flawed reasoning with blustery polemics? =- =-1) It dose nothing to broaden the Amiga install base. Oh no? Where, pray tell, are all those traded-in-and-kept A1000s going then, if they are not being resold? Sure, some people will keep their old machines, but I for one wouldn't have bought an A2000 in the first place if it hadn't been for the trade-in. Many others who have asked me about the $1050 deal have said the same thing. Most of those old A1000s will find new and happy owners. As long as a substantial number of people wouldn't have upgraded for a larger amount of money, and as long as most of those who do upgrade sell their A1000s, the trade-in does a LOT to broaden the installed base. =- =-2) It KILLED the value of the A1000 ! Buy back your A1000 for $50 !!! First of all no. Second, so what? The $50 buy-back is an artifact of a low-margin dealer eating the profit on a used A1000 to sell more 2000s. Even I, who slept through all of ECON 102 at Cornell not all that long ago, know how this works. Just because I buy back my A1000 for $50, doesn't mean it's WORTH $50 to me; it's worth whatever I can get for it, which is a lot more. I could just as well look at it as having bought back my A1000 for $1050 and gotten the trade-in for $0. Now what happened? Did the value of the A1000 just go up? Hmm? =- =- =-What C= should have done: =- =-1) Offer A/B2000 to A1000 and C64/128 owners for $1300 ... no trade in. This =- would have maintained the value of the A1000 while allowing existing owners =- a fair "upgrade?" option. How is this different than a $1000 trade-in and a $300 buy-back? =- =-2) Offer a $300 trade in for Atari ST systems, $50 for Atari 800 et als, =- $200 for IBM PC/x88 clones, $300 for IBM PC/x86 clones and IBM PC/x88, =- $400 for IBM PC/x86.... and then resell these for $50 to $300! Oh, spam; no one is going to trade in anything for these laughable sums if they have any reasonable software investment. The only reason the Amiga trade-in works is because all of us new 2000ers can still run robotroff! 8^} =- =-Hans hah@inteloa -or- hah$mipon3 Don't bitch just 'cause you can't scrape together the $1050. :-) :-) ______________________________________________________________________________ /_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/ |_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| _No dark sarcasm in the classroom|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|___ |____Teachers leave the kids alone__|_____|_____|bryan@mothra.cs.utexas.edu___| ___|_____|_____|_____|___{ihnp4,seismo,...}!ut-sally!mothra.cs.utexas.edu!bryan |_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|
mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (11/07/87)
In article <1350@atkins.munsell.UUCP> klm@atkins.UUCP (Kevin [Being Weird Isn't Enough] McBride) writes:
<So, let's drop this horse puckey and bashing of CBM and get back to some
<real business.
I am. I'm evaluating boxes to upgrade to from my Amiga. The list just
keeps getting longer - for what I've got set aside for a hard disk for
the Amiga, I could get a *killer* OS-9 system.
<mike
--
[Our regularly scheduled .signature preempted.] Mike Meyer
The Amiga 1000: Let's build _the_ hackers machine. mwm@berkeley.edu
The Amiga 500: Let's build one as cheaply as possible! ucbvax!mwm
The Amiga 2000: Let's build one inside an IBM PC! mwm@ucbjade.BITNETcs313s02@uhccux.UUCP (Cs313s02) (11/07/87)
[ COBOL, FORTRAN, core, punched cards, TTY, etc ] In article <1203@omepd> hah@mipon3.UUCP (Hans Hansen) writes: > >The real STUPID act is the A1000 + $1000 = A/B2000. While on the surface >this seems like a real nice offer, a closer look shows just how stupid it >really is. > >1) It dose nothing to broaden the Amiga install base. But it does, if you play your cards right. Find one of those dealers that allow you to buy the A1000 back (say, $50), and then sell your old A1000 for $400 - $600. I'm sure there are people who's willing to buy an A1000 for that price ( I know I do!). And some of these people might be new Amiga owners! >2) It KILLED the value of the A1000 ! Buy back your A1000 for $50 !!! Nah... Actually it halved the value of A2000 to $500 more than A1000. So what you actually get is A1000 + $450 = A2000 (if you sell the A1000 for $600). >What C= should have done: > >1) Offer A/B2000 to A1000 and C64/128 owners for $1300 ... no trade in. This > would have maintained the value of the A1000 while allowing existing owners > a fair "upgrade?" option. Which is steeper than $1,050 to upgrade with buyback. People flamed the $1,000 upgrade enough as it is... >2) Offer a $300 trade in for Atari ST systems, $50 for Atari 800 et als, > $200 for IBM PC/x88 clones, $300 for IBM PC/x86 clones and IBM PC/x88, > $400 for IBM PC/x86.... and then resell these for $50 to $300! I'm not too sure about this one. It makes little economic sense for Commodore to buy these stuffs. And I don't think I'll get so enthusiastic about the Amiga that I trade in my AT for $400. Just let them do what they do best (lowering prices! 8=). >Items needing fixing by C= : > >1) Cheap box, improve the supports, add an option allowing Zorro I boards > to be housed within a CLOSED A/B2000. Ditto. Expansion box prices are still out of reach for the avrage user. > [ 2) and 3) deleted, cause I don't know the answer 8-] >4) Fix the hardware incompatability problems that cause programs that work > on a A1000 w/exp RAM to GURU on the B2000. This you can't really blame C/A, as it's the fault of software developers writing programs with the Apple II mentality ("We'll call the ROM anywhere we damn well please!"). >Hans hah@inteloa -or- hah$mipon3 -- Yuan Chang (currently using a stupid student account) UUCP: {ihnp4,uunet,ucbvax,dcdwest}!sdcsvax!nosc!uhccux!cs313s02 ARPA: uhccux!cs313s02@nosc.MIL "Wouldn't you like to INTERNET: cs313s02@uhccux.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU be an _A_m_i_g_o_i_d too?!?
cs313s02@uhccux.UUCP (Cs313s02) (11/07/87)
In article <5807@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: > >No. I'm saying that I expect an upgrade that's "optional" like 1.2 & >the extra 256K, but can't be done on an A1000. Thus keeping A1000 >owners from using most of the software written after that date. *Sigh*. I don't see programs that will run on a 16K Apple II anymore. Nor any programs that will be happy with 64K on a PC. In fact, you can't even do anything if you run DOS 3.20 on a 64K PC. And OS/2 will barely fit on a 640K PC. Do you really expect any of them to work? Not I. Just a sign of progress, I guess... >-- >[Our regularly scheduled .signature preempted.] Mike Meyer >The Amiga 1000: Let's build _the_ hackers machine. mwm@berkeley.edu >The Amiga 500: Let's build one as cheaply as possible! ucbvax!mwm >The Amiga 2000: Let's build one inside an IBM PC! mwm@ucbjade.BITNET -- Yuan Chang (currently using a stupid student account) UUCP: {ihnp4,uunet,ucbvax,dcdwest}!sdcsvax!nosc!uhccux!cs313s02 ARPA: uhccux!cs313s02@nosc.MIL "Wouldn't you like to INTERNET: cs313s02@uhccux.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU be an _A_m_i_g_o_i_d too?!?
mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (11/07/87)
In article <1223@vaxwaller.UUCP> richc@vaxwaller.UUCP (Rich Commins) writes:
< I've been very disappointed with the A1000 when it came
< time to add extra memory and a harddisk and feel that my starboard II
< and Xebec 20 meg harddisk is a kludge to a machine with great
< potential.
There were good, solid ways to expand the Amiga. I *never* bot a SOTS
box. I just wound up with them because CBM waffled on bus standards.
< Well in my
< opinion, hardware is cheap and software is expensive (not only
< money but the time to learn the software).
I think just the opposite - software is cheap (I can create it in my
spare time!), hardware isn't. Especially since I can now get *all* the
important parts of my software for nothing (with a tip of the hat to
RMS).
Since CBM has put me in a position where I need to seriously consider
buying another computer, I'm doing it as right, and looking at all the
options. Past experience with CBM puts them in a bad spot, but *not*
having to start over with all my software somewhat makes up for it.
Only this time, I'll make bloody sure to buy all my expansion hardware
with the system, preferably from someone *other* than CBM.
< I'd
< suggest you live and love your A1000 until you want a divorce,
< then buy an A2000.
Sounds like going from a divorce to a shotgun wedding to me.
<mikemwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (11/07/87)
In article <1080@uhccux.UUCP> cs313s02@uhccux.UUCP (Cs313s02) writes:
< *Sigh*. I don't see programs that will run on a 16K Apple II anymore.
<Nor any programs that will be happy with 64K on a PC. In fact, you can't
<even do anything if you run DOS 3.20 on a 64K PC. And OS/2 will barely
<fit on a 640K PC. Do you really expect any of them to work? Not I. Just
<a sign of progress, I guess...
But all those machines got replaced by better machine. Of course, you
could also upgrade the Apple II without buying a new computer, and you
could put more than 64K in an IBM-PC without buying a new computer.
The OS/2 example is right, though. CBM and IBM have more in common
than the last two letters of TLA, I guess.
<mikemwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (11/07/87)
In article <2189@gryphon.CTS.COM> richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) writes:
<So, Mike, say we concede all your points (which I do) what should happen ?
Thanx for being so conceding.
CBM should admit they made a mistake.
No, cancel that - that's asking to much.
CBM (*not* some third party) should come out with a nice, cheap gadget
to let people run hardware from an A1000 on an A2000.
Best would be an outside-the-2000 cable that would handle a *single*
SOTS device (more at your own risk). Eating one (or two, or maybe even
three) slots (especially if they are otherwise useless piece-of-crap
slots) would be perfectly acceptable.
This would also let users who've got money tied up in A500 SOTS boxes
use them if they decide to upgrade.
Basically, this would demonstrate that CBM understands the concept of
"family of computers."
Failing that, offering an optional top on the A2000 that would make it
possible to put Zorro I cards into it without running it with it's
underwear showing.
<mike
--
[Our regularly scheduled .signature preempted.] Mike Meyer
The Amiga 1000: Let's build _the_ hackers machine. mwm@berkeley.edu
The Amiga 500: Let's build one as cheaply as possible! ucbvax!mwm
The Amiga 2000: Let's build one inside an IBM PC! mwm@ucbjade.BITNETugfeldmn@sunybcs.uucp (Jon Feldman) (11/07/87)
STOP IT! JUST STOP IT! YOU GUYS ARE DRIVING ME **NUTS!** I don't
really -care- if you guys like or don't like CBM or CBM's upgrade
policy! JUST STOP CLUTTERING THIS NEWSGROUP WITH YOUR REPITITIOUS
FANATICISM!
[My apologies to the moderates on this newsgroup; it had to be said.]
- Jon
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jon Feldman Inter: ugfeldmn@joey.cs.buffalo.edu _^--^_
uucp: {decvax,watmath,rutgers,...}!sunybcs!ugfeldmn / . . \
"Time isn't holding us, time isn't after us ... same as it ever was."( \ )
- David Byrne ^-----`__o_'
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (11/08/87)
In article <6369@sunybcs.UUCP> ugfeldmn@joey.UUCP (Jon Feldman) writes:
<STOP IT! JUST STOP IT! YOU GUYS ARE DRIVING ME **NUTS!** I don't
<really -care- if you guys like or don't like CBM or CBM's upgrade
<policy! JUST STOP CLUTTERING THIS NEWSGROUP WITH YOUR REPITITIOUS
<FANATICISM!
So put the words "CBM", "upgrade" and "mwm" in your Kill file, or
whatever is equivalent in the newsreading software you use.
<[My apologies to the moderates on this newsgroup; it had to be said.]
No it didn't, but someone was bound to say it anyway.
<mike
--
[Our regularly scheduled .signature preempted.] Mike Meyer
The Amiga 1000: Let's build _the_ hackers machine. mwm@berkeley.edu
The Amiga 500: Let's build one as cheaply as possible! ucbvax!mwm
The Amiga 2000: Let's build one inside an IBM PC! mwm@ucbjade.BITNETcs313s02@uhccux.UUCP (Cs313s02) (11/08/87)
In article <5814@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: >In article <1080@uhccux.UUCP> I wrote: >< *Sigh*. I don't see programs that will run on a 16K Apple II anymore. ><Nor any programs that will be happy with 64K on a PC. In fact, you can't ><even do anything if you run DOS 3.20 on a 64K PC. And OS/2 will barely ><fit on a 640K PC. Do you really expect any of them to work? Not I. Just ><a sign of progress, I guess... > >But all those machines got replaced by better machine. Of course, you >could also upgrade the Apple II without buying a new computer, and you >could put more than 64K in an IBM-PC without buying a new computer. What prompted me to write the follow-up was your comment that you expect programs to still be able to run under Amiga DOS 1.0 with 256K of memory. Just like my examples, I don't think anybody is still twiddling with an Amiga in that configuration, is there? And you can't really say that the PC was replaced by a better machine, as the XT only sported more memory, and allowed booting from HD. The Apple IIe threw in a vastly superior keyboard [relative to the II], and little more memory. The A2000 adds more than either to their respective predecessors. Of course, the A2000 is still not perfect, but it is a step in the right direction. >The OS/2 example is right, though. CBM and IBM have more in common >than the last two letters of TLA, I guess. *Sigh*, I would have saved a bundle if IBM had something similar to CBM's upgrade policy (prehaps big enough a bundle that would have gotten me an Amiga... 8=). I hope the two companies don't have too much in common (wonna buy my Amiga-Jr, Amiga-370, Amiga-RT, and Amiga-Portable?). > <mike -- Yuan Chang (currently using a stupid student account) UUCP: {ihnp4,uunet,ucbvax,dcdwest}!sdcsvax!nosc!uhccux!cs313s02 ARPA: uhccux!cs313s02@nosc.MIL "Wouldn't you like to INTERNET: cs313s02@uhccux.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU be an _A_m_i_g_o_i_d too?!?
spencer@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Randy Spencer) (11/08/87)
In article <5807@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: >In article <2696@cbmvax.UUCP> andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) writes: >< Are you saying that you'd like the ><software authors shouldn't use the new features of an OS ??? ><Is that really what you mean ? I'm speechless! You're saying ><that enhancements should never be added because someone *might use them* ? > >No. I'm saying that I expect an upgrade that's "optional" like 1.2 & >the extra 256K, but can't be done on an A1000. Thus keeping A1000 >owners from using most of the software written after that date. This is a really sore point that I think Commodore has delt with very well so far. With the IBM there was this version of the operating system that shipped with most machines (2.11) and then the updated to v3.1 and now v3.2 and the new machines have 3.3, but they cost almost a hundred bucks, most people don't have them, so developers are not developing for them. Most PC software will run under v2.1 of the operating system. Then comes the Mac. There have been more upgrades to that OS than upgrades to a Matt Dillon program. And if you are a developer you are getting really stuck these days. Not that getting a version of the OS that works with your product is a headache, you just develop for one OS, and than ship the disk with it. The problem comes in when you try to support all Mac users. Do people realize that there are still people out there that have 400K floppies, do people realize that the current release of the system runs 300K without such things as printer drivers and the like (there are lots of support files that would be nice to include, what with Easy Access and the like out). Where do you put your executable that was written for this specific OS? On a seperate disk? The Amiga is doing well, the new version of the OS comes out, and Everybody is expected to move to it. It only costs $15 which just about covers Commodore's costs of shipping. So, here is the new operating system, the old one is outdated, and as such unsupported, and that is good. All developers know to make their software run with this OS because they know that Everyone will have it. They can make no other assumptions. The Amiga is multitasking, you can only run one version of the OS at a time, there is not much chance that we will be running an old OS, especially if program disks come with the new version. > <mike -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Randy Spencer P.O. Box 4542 Berkeley CA 94704 (415)284-4740 I N F I N I T Y BBS: (415)283-5469 Now working for |||||||||||::::... . . BUD-LINX But in no way |||||||||||||||::::.. .. . Officially representing ||||||||||||:::::... .. ....ucbvax!mica!spencer s o f t w a r e spencer@mica.berkeley.edu -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
ugfeldmn@sunybcs.uucp (Jon Feldman) (11/09/87)
>>In article <6369@sunybcs.UUCP> I write: >>STOP IT! JUST STOP IT! YOU GUYS ARE DRIVING ME **NUTS!** I don't >>really -care- if you guys like or don't like CBM or CBM's upgrade >>policy! JUST STOP CLUTTERING THIS NEWSGROUP WITH YOUR REPITITIOUS >>FANATICISM! >In article <5825@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU >(Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: >So put the words "CBM", "upgrade" and "mwm" in your Kill file, or >whatever is equivalent in the newsreading software you use. But I don't -want- to skip news about upgrades or CBM ... but that mwm? Hmn.... now THAT has possibilities. >>[My apologies to the moderates on this newsgroup; it had to be said.] > >No it didn't, but someone was bound to say it anyway. > > <mike Your opinion, friend. -Jon -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Jon Feldman Inter: ugfeldmn@joey.cs.buffalo.edu _^--^_ uucp: {decvax,watmath,rutgers,...}!sunybcs!ugfeldmn / . . \ "Time isn't holding us, time isn't after us ... same as it ever was."( \ ) - David Byrne ^-----`__o_' . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (11/09/87)
In article <1088@uhccux.UUCP> cs313s02@uhccux.UUCP (Cs313s02) writes:
< What prompted me to write the follow-up was your comment that you
<expect programs to still be able to run under Amiga DOS 1.0 with 256K of
<memory.
I never said that. I did say that I expected software to show up that
won't work on an A1000. Not the same thing at all.
<mike
--
Tell me how d'you get to be Mike Meyer
As beautiful as that? mwm@berkeley.edu
How did you get your mind ucbvax!mwm
To tilt like your hat? mwm@ucbjade.BITNETjmpiazza@sunybcs.uucp (Joseph M. Piazza) (11/09/87)
In article <5829@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> spencer@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Randy Spencer) writes: > ... >Then comes the Mac. There have been more upgrades to that OS than >upgrades to a Matt Dillon program. Good analogy :-) >And if you are a developer you >are getting really stuck these days. Not that getting a version >of the OS that works with your product is a headache, you just develop >for one OS, and than ship the disk with it. The problem comes in when >you try to support all Mac users. Do people realize that there are >still people out there that have 400K floppies, do people realize that >the current release of the system runs 300K without such things as >printer drivers and the like (there are lots of support files that >would be nice to include, what with Easy Access and the like out). >Where do you put your executable that was written for this specific >OS? On a seperate disk? The Mac hasn't been as bad as that. There are many programs that have run correctly (or at least sufficiently well enough) with many System software versions. This was possible because of Apple's stringent programing guidlines. They clearly told developers that by following the guidelines their products should work with virtually all future system changes and enhancements. Don't follow the guidelines and there's a good chance that your software would break on some new System. (Sound familiar?) A good example of software longevity is Microsoft Word 1.0 (1.01?). I've seen the same version run on a 512K Mac, a Lisa 2 running MacWorks, Mac+ and the SE. This also included the change from MFS (retro-fit title of the original "flat," non-hierarchal file system) to the current HFS (Hierarchal File System). This change broke a l o t of software that didn't follow the guidlines. But Word and other applications that followed the programing guidelines worked with them all. Not a bad record at all. I won't be disappointed if the Amiga does as well. Flip side, joe piazza --- Cogito ergo equus sum. CS Dept. SUNY at Buffalo 14260 UU: ...{rocksvax|decvax}!sunybcs!jmpiazza CS: jmpiazza@cs.buffalo.edu BI: jmpiazza@sunybcs >Randy Spencer ucbvax!mica!spencer spencer@mica.berkeley.edu
mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (11/09/87)
In article <992@sugar.UUCP> peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: <In article <8711040542.AA29099@violet.berkeley.edu>, mwm@VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike Meyer, My watch has windows) writes: <> I've continually pointed out that the Amiga didn't introduce <> multitasking to the home computer market. < <Then who did? Not counting third-party software for the IBM-PC that doesn't <run fast enough to be useful even on an AT? The Radio Shack Color Computer? Sorry, but multitasking systems for home computers predate the IBM-PC and the color computer. OS/9 is old enough that the original version had a flavor that ran off of a cassette deck. But I don't recall whether it predates MP/M from Digital Research (remember them?) or not. But both were first released nearly ten years ago. <> I've even been pointing out <> that I can buy a cheaper multi-tasking, windowing system than an A500. < <OK. Name it. I hope you're not talking about the Radio Shack Color Computer <or the Sinclair Quantum Leap. Those are the only ones I can think of and both <are effectively dead puppies. Yeah, I'm talking about the CoCo. It may be a dead puppy, but people are still starting new hardware expansion products for it. Can the same be said for the A1000? And people are also still doing software work for it. So I'd say that it's got more life than the A1000. In fact, the new one can have more memory than the A500 comes with, and has an MMU. <mike -- Round about, round about, in a fair ring-a. Mike Meyer Thus we dance, thus we dance, and thus we sing-a. mwm@berkeley.edu Trip and go, to and fro, over this green-a. ucbvax!mwm All about, in and out, over this green-a. mwm@ucbjade.BITNET
mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (11/09/87)
In article <5829@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> spencer@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Randy Spencer) writes:
<The Amiga is doing well, the new version of the OS comes out, and
<Everybody is expected to move to it. It only costs $15 which just
<about covers Commodore's costs of shipping. So, here is the new
<operating system, the old one is outdated, and as such unsupported,
<and that is good. All developers know to make their software run with
<this OS because they know that Everyone will have it. They can make
<no other assumptions. The Amiga is multitasking, you can only run one
<version of the OS at a time, there is not much chance that we will be
<running an old OS, especially if program disks come with the new version.
Right - CBM has done very well in that regards. Not as well as Apple
with the Mac (where the upgrades are free, and dealers have to give
them away), but very well.
But Apple got into a morass anyway. Because they released hardware
that wasn't compatable with older versions of their machines. Gee,
guess what path CBM has just started down.
<mike
--
I know the world is flat. Mike Meyer
Don't try tell me that it's round. mwm@berkeley.edu
I know the world stands still. ucbvax!mwm
Don't try to make it turn around. mwm@ucbjade.BITNETewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) (11/09/87)
[ My turn: ] I bought an Amiga 1000 in October 1985. I like it. I'm keeping it. So there. PTHPTHPBBBPTBTHTBTPTPTTT!!!!!!! Perry Kivolowitz: Request feasability study on bringing a Zorro slot outside the 2000 (via ribbon cable or somesuch) to allow plugging in of old SOTS boxes or card cages. In article <5807@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: >Anyone wanna buy an A1000? MiniRack C + 8M/4, Lattice C 4.0, MCC LISP, >Dpaint ][ (unprotected), a complete collection of Fish disks (through >110), and much other random software. Asking $2000. > How much you want for just Lattice? SillyMode (ON); I don't know about anyone else, but I seem to have been able to "sense" what was done right, and what was done wrong. They are mostly purely subjective senses, sometimes based on fact. But it is largely a gut feeling I've had about a number of Amiga products. I get the feeling that the designers of some of them were trying to get by cheap, and it showed (to me anyway). For example: MicroBotics Starboard "feels" right. Everything ASDG has done so far feels right. CLtd. feels all wrong. $C00000 RAM is *all* wrong. Mimetics sound digitizer doesn't feel quite right. Future Sound feels okay. None of the current crop of hard disk controllers feels at all right. None of the clock/calendar accessories seem right. LIVE seems okay (harmless, anyway). DigiView feels good. Mimetics' video board feels all wrong (too good to be true?). CSA feels odd (good stuff, but why so expensive?). Note that these are all subjective reactions on my part, largely unsupported by hard facts. What has this got to do with the price of pogo sticks? Well, take the $C00000 RAM idea, for example. First off, it was a crude hack, executed purely to save money. All the $C00000 RAM boards I've seen "feel" cheap and flakey, not to mention the fact that they're useless in the 500 and 2000 (yes, I know about Sprit Tech's new internal board for the 500. It still feels wrong). These were designed for and sold to people on a shoestring budget who needed/wanted RAM, but couldn't afford a properly designed setup. So they went for cheap. The high-quality manufacturer lost a sale, thus preventing him from lowering the price of his board by economy of scale, and the consumer lost, because s/he wasn't getting the best. I think the $C00000 RAM hack should have been shot down by Amiga the moment it was proposed. Oh well, that's 20/20 hindsight for you. The point is that, if you're going to go for cheap, you're going to pay for it in the end. However, this doesn't address Mike's problem, who owns an ASDG rack (done right). I also own an ASDG rack. This is why I'm electing to keep my 1000. I can trade in my Mr. C for a 2000-and-1, and keep my old memory card (and the SDP when it comes out (drool, drool)). I firmly believe that some brilliant hacker somewhere will come up with a daughterboard that will allow me to use the new Fat Agnus when it becomes available (Dale Luck told me he's going to fight for a pin arrangement that at least has a chance of working in a 1000). I can forsee no useful purpose for the video slot that can't be addressed in another way (suggestions anyone?). SillyMode (OFF); StoryMode (ON); I finally met Dave Needle, one of the hardware types at Amiga, now working for EPYX, working on some secret goodie. I had a very long and entertaining talk with him, during which, he related numerous war stories about the birth of the Amiga, and the in-fighting between Amiga and Commodore. Trivium: Did you know that, as early as the very first round of lay-offs at Amiga Los Gatos, the facility was already slated for closure? Did you know that Commodore management was instructed to *lie* to ALG staff, saying that everything was fine, and that they were merely cutting costs? Trivium: Did you know that ALG staff fought tooth and nail to *not* have PC slots in the A2000? Trivium: Did you know that there almost *weren't* any signatures on the inside cover of the A1000, due to last-minute instructions issued by Commodore? Trivium: TRIPOS (AmigaDOS) *could* have been a stop-gap measure i.e. a temporary DOS until a real one could have been written. Commodore elected to retain TRIPOS, saying that it was just fine the way it was. Trivium: Did you know that Commodore absolutely refused to provide development systems to third-party developers (including EA) on the basis that Commodore wasn't going to support third-party development? StoryMode (OFF); We have a great deal to thank the Amiga Los Gatos staff for. They *FOUGHT* for what we now call the Amiga 1000. Commodore eventually chipped away at their kingdom, took their design away, re-designed their machines themselves (bungling it in the process (face it; there *are* functional design differences)), re-packaged it, and sold them as the 500 and 2000. The new machines don't even have the checkmark on them anymore. Instead they bear the Commodore "chickenhead". I bear no animosity towards the CATS staff. In fact, I love them (especially Carolyn Sheppner, for all her source code (the semaphore example in particular)). It's the egotistical management-type boobs I don't like. In fact, after listening to Needle, I find it amazing that the Amiga ever saw the light of day. One thing is certain, however. It would have been much worse with Tramiel at the wheel. Anyway, I'm keeping my 1000; I suggest you all do the same. It feels right. _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape ihnp4!ptsfa -\ \_ -_ Recumbent Bikes: dual ---> !{well,unicom}!ewhac O----^o The Only Way To Fly. hplabs / (pronounced "AE-wack") "Work FOR? I don't work FOR anybody! I'm just having fun." -- The Doctor
mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (11/09/87)
In article <4410@well.UUCP> ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes:
<[ My turn: ]
Your input is always welcome, Leo!
< How much you want for just Lattice?
Sorry, no unbundling on the deal. But 4.0 is impressive. My current
project went from being 10% slower than the mac version to more like
20+% faster.
But they still have problems with the include files. This time it's
restricted to the prototype header files.
< I don't know about anyone else, but I seem to have been able to
<"sense" what was done right, and what was done wrong.
Interesting. I have a sense for what's "right." Everything else is, by
definition, "not right." I've known people who had the other sense -
of what's "wrong."
< I also own an ASDG rack. This is why I'm electing to keep my
<1000. I can trade in my Mr. C for a 2000-and-1, and keep my old memory card
<(and the SDP when it comes out (drool, drool)).
The SDP and the 2000-n-1 are both scheduled for January. Anyone know
of someone selling either a Zorro I SCSI card, or a Zorro 1 and Zorro
][ expansion box?
<
< We have a great deal to thank the Amiga Los Gatos staff for. They
<*FOUGHT* for what we now call the Amiga 1000.
Most definitely true.
< I bear no animosity towards the CATS staff. In fact, I love them
<(especially Carolyn Sheppner, for all her source code (the semaphore example
<in particular)). It's the egotistical management-type boobs I don't like.
<In fact, after listening to Needle, I find it amazing that the Amiga ever
<saw the light of day.
Likewise. They've been mostly polite towards me while I'm saying
really nasty things about the company they work for.
< Anyway, I'm keeping my 1000; I suggest you all do the same.
< It feels right.
Yes, it feels right. But it's an orphan. Sigh.
<mike
--
And then up spoke his own dear wife, Mike Meyer
Never heard to speak so free. mwm@berkeley.edu
"I'd rather a kiss from dead Matty's lips, ucbvax!mwm
Than you or your finery." mwm@ucbjade.BITNETdillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (11/09/87)
> None of the current crop of hard disk controllers feels at all >right. None of the clock/calendar accessories seem right. LIVE seems okay I dunno, my prize from the badge killer demo contest was MouseTimes, a clock-calendar that plugs into the second mouse port of my A1000. It works great! (and doesn't use the parallel port!). No more typing in the date everytime I reboot... -Matt
hedley@cbmvax.UUCP (11/10/87)
Oh man. Do you guys have any idea what its like checking out this newsgroup every day, and seeing 2-5 MWM messages bitching and moaning ? And then, Leo gets on, and dumps alot of stories about all the bad things we have done. ( Big ouch ). Nothing but negative stories, gripes, and moans about this or that and so much of it is water under the bridge and can't be changed now, but the complaining and whining just keeps on coming in. Alot of us here ( the vast majority in fact ) are behing the Amiga 100%, and do everything we can to do what we ( maybe incorrectly, but not maliciously so ) percieve is best to foster the machine into a stronger one. One really annoying thing about this is the number of Monday Morning Quarterbacks out there. You are not here, you do NOT know alot of the considerations, and just because something seems so, does not make it so. We are not a large company. We are rather small compared to IBM or APPLE or DEC. We have a heavy debt load ( largely due to the Amiga which has consumed unimaginable amounts of cash ), and we have to make a sale to survive. We are doing an awful lot to put the right types of channels in place to allow us to sell higher end machines, but unfortunately, the majority of our sales come from the the lower end machines. ( The only reason we had enough cash/borrowing power to buy Amiga is because of the success of the C64 ). So Yeah, sometimes we do things which, in the interest of making sales, somehow pervert the ( percieved by the hacker community ) intrinsic beauty of the Amiga into something else. This is called taking a machine too expensive to sell ( a real death wish here folks ) and doing what you have to sell them so that you can survive. Hopefully we can retain some functionality in the process. The second step is the next generation of machines. Don't think we are sitting here on our high horse laughing all the way to the bank. We are scared S***LESS. The whole idea is to build machines which will sell to allow us some breathing room so that we can design the next batch. Undoubtly, no one will be satisfied with them either. We ( I ) think there are alot of nice features, but then again, MWM won't. How many "great" machines have died because of lack of market penitration ? Lots. Think about it. The amiga may be scarred, but it is still alive, and for the most part, pretty healthy. So the point is that everyone here is doing what they percieves as best. We always welcome constructive comments and honest criticism. We do what we can. But honestly, with Meyer dead set on undermining everything we do, and several other people complaining that everything we do is wrong, and stupid, and useless, and how our management sucks, I gotta wonder why I bother coming to work in the morning. If I was a paranoid type, I'd swear alot of this net.bandwidth is a Tramielian plot or something. I mean, most of this is accomplishing two things: 1) Pissing off the net gods -> threatening to hurt the newsgroup. 2) Killing sales of new machines to people who stop in and read a little bit of this stuff. It definitely does NOT accomplish one thing: 1) Effect positive change ( Who listens to total whiners ?) ( If anyuthing, it kills any respect we have for the net input. I'm sorry but I'm human, and I tend to disregard people screaming at me, especially when they repeat themselves over and over again. ) So if you guys want to piss off the net gods, kill our sales, and avert any chance of effecting positive change, just keep on doing what your doing right now. I doubt I could conceive a better way to do it. This way you really will have an orphan, and I'll be in the bread lines. Thanks one hell of alot. Oh, and by the way mike: Shove it. Hedley THESE ARE MY PERSONAL OPINIONS. FLAMES ARE CATIGORICALLY IGNORED. NOTHING IN THIS NOTE REFLECTS ANY OPINIONS OTHER THAN MY OWN. I AM NOT PERFECT, I DO NOT CLAIM TO BE PERFECT. ( HELL, I CAN'T EVEN SPELL ). POINTING OUT MY FAULTS ( IN THE WAY Y'ALL ARE INCLINED TO DO ) WON'T REALLY HELP THIS MUCH. ( AND ITS A PRETTY LOWLIFE THING TO DO ).
bryan@mothra.cs.utexas.edu (Bryan Bayerdorffer) (11/10/87)
=- [Hedley is fed up with CA-bashing...] Cheer up friend; I daresay that most readers of this group feel a good deal more appreciation for what you (collectively) are doing than is evident in the rantings of the vocal few. It's hard not to respond to some of the irresponsible diatribes that have been tossed around lately, but if you feel that some statement is non-constructive, then it's your duty to ignore it, instead of trying to melt the author's screen with an even hotter flame. It is sad that some have not yet learned to refrain from the cage- rattling which the absence-of-body nature of an electronic medium facilitates. Don't dignify this behavior by wasting your valuable time on a response. ______________________________________________________________________________ /_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/ |_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| _No dark sarcasm in the classroom|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|___ |____Teachers leave the kids alone__|_____|_____|bryan@mothra.cs.utexas.edu___| ___|_____|_____|_____|___{ihnp4,seismo,...}!ut-sally!mothra.cs.utexas.edu!bryan |_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|
bryce@hoser.berkeley.edu (Bryce Nesbitt) (11/10/87)
In article <2696@cbmvax.UUCP> andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) writes: > >Now, here's the interesting part... >the address space for the ROM is 512K. What if we were to take >advantage of this, and start putting in 512K of ROM into the >A500 and the A2000 ? *** In light of recent net activities, I feel the need for a disclaimer: this is not a flame! *** Except that the extra PC trace needed for this was never run to the rom socket. :-( The decoding is in place, however. I hope C= goes to a 512K ROM anyway, it's obvious the space could be well used. While I'm picking nits, here are two more: The A501's real time clock cannot be easily calibrated. The case is soldered shut and there is no access hole to the trimmer capacitor. The right hand side of the A500's keyboard needs another support. And the A2000's keyboard needs to learn some tricks from the A500 :-). ------------- Somehow I think the root of Mike's complaint is simply that Commodore did not offer a way for Zorro I and SOTS cards to be added to an A2000. The rest grew out of that. He seemed to calm down a bit after I offered to build some adaptors for him. :-) |\ /| . Ack! (NAK, SOH, EOT) {o O} . bryce@hoser.berkeley.EDU -or- ucbvax!hoser!bryce (") U
carolyn@cbmvax.UUCP (Carolyn Scheppner CATS) (11/10/87)
In article <4410@well.UUCP> ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes: >[] > I bear no animosity towards the CATS staff. In fact, I love them >(especially Carolyn Sheppner, for all her source code (the semaphore example >in particular)). Thanks, but I was just the poster on that one. That was a Phil Lindsay example with portions by Dale Luck. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Carolyn Scheppner -- CATS >>Commodore Amiga Technical Support<< UUCP ...{allegra,ihnp4,rutgers}!cbmvax!carolyn PHONE 215-431-9180 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
jimm@mitsumi.UUCP (Jim Mackraz) (11/10/87)
In article <2710@cbmvax.UUCP> hedley@cbmvax.UUCP (Hedley Davis) writes: >Oh man. Do you guys have any idea what its like checking out this >newsgroup every day, and seeing 2-5 MWM messages bitching and moaning ? >And then, Leo gets on, and dumps alot of stories about all the bad >things we have done. ( Big ouch ). I have to add that of the stories I have first- or second-hand knowledge most were quite "colorized." >How many "great" machines have died because of lack of market >penitration ? Lots. Think about it. The amiga may be scarred, but it >is still alive, and for the most part, pretty healthy. I'd like to emphasize this point. The Amiga 1000 is not an orphan, the Mindset is an orphan. >Oh, and by the way mike: Shove it. It's traditional to not be so directly personal. I'm sure Hedly will get over it. I'd like to point out that the traditional thing for him to do would be to stop reading the net. If this occurs, we all owe Mike, particularly, a debt of ingratitude. Let's keep it constructive. jimm -- Jim Mackraz Mitsumi Technology, Inc. 408/980-5422 {amiga,pyramid}!mitsumi!jimm
rminnich@udel.EDU (Ron Minnich) (11/10/87)
In article <2710@cbmvax.UUCP> hedley@cbmvax.UUCP (Hedley Davis) writes: >Oh man. Do you guys have any idea what its like checking out this >newsgroup every day, and seeing 2-5 MWM messages bitching and moaning ? > >And then, Leo gets on, and dumps alot of stories about all the bad >things we have done. ( Big ouch ). > >Nothing but negative stories, gripes, and moans about this or that and >so much of it is water under the bridge and can't be changed now, but >the complaining and whining just keeps on coming in. I am getting tired of this stuff too. I keep seeing things of the type: 'we made the Amiga and they f'ed it up!'. And 'we had the best bunch of people in the world at ALG'. And 'why did C= screw up the 1000'. And so on. For the record, there are lots of good engineers out there, not just restricted to ALG. And i discovered a few years ago that there was a real good group up at West Chester when i got a copy of the Sam's book on the Commodore 64- a machine of surprising sophistication given the market and pricing. A machine that is a lot more interesting engineering-wise than, say, a Mac. The 1000 was a wonderful machine. I have one. I also have a 500, and of the two i much prefer the 500. The 1000 has problems. First and most serious is SOTS. That was an ALG design and it was a mistake. Think of what a manufacturer of a SOTS card has to do: provide two connectors and a nice plastic housing. For a pc, a manufacturer provides a card with fingers built on. The SOTS card is inherently more expensive, especially when you have to amortize the machining for the dies for that nice plastic case over the small number of 1000s out there. Second big problem was KickStart. The whole point of the Amiga is that you can do so much more, especially with multitasking. But i can not multitask a V1.1 kickstart program and a V2.2 kickstart program! The original amigans argue that kickstart was a win; i think it was a botch. I am so happy with the 500 and not having to put that kickstart disk in. But let the marketplace decide, i think. And the marketplace is saying that the 1000 was positioned wrong (few sold, really, in relation to what it must have cost to develop) and that the 500 and 2000 are positioned just right (my dealer can not keep either in stock- they come in and they get sold right away- i had to reserve my 500). C= inherited a neat machine with some serious design problems. I think the 500 and 2000 have done a lot to remedy those problems. I think the 500 is one of the neatest machines i have seen in many years. A lot of people seem to agree. So, Hedley et. al., please do not get discouraged. You are doing real nice work. Thanks. -- ron (rminnich@udel.edu)
ptp6186@ritcv.UUCP (Paul T. Pryor) (11/10/87)
In article <21704@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> bryce@hoser.berkeley.edu (Bryce Nesbitt) writes: >In article <2696@cbmvax.UUCP> andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) writes: >> >>Now, here's the interesting part... >> ... deleted ... > >*** In light of recent net activities, I feel the need for a >disclaimer: this is not a flame! *** > sure glad it isn't a flame ! :-) > ... deleted ... > >The A501's real time clock cannot be easily calibrated. The >case is soldered shut and there is no access hole to the >trimmer capacitor. Agreed. Now, it is a simple matter of drilling a hole in the cover. The bad new is that in order to twiddle the trimmer cap, it is necessary to remove the A501 from the A500. The other alternative is to remove the top case, and about once a week, twiddle the clock (first moving the keyboard out of the way). When the clock is back to specs, put the top case back on. This would kill the warranty for both the A500 and the A501 :-(. > ... deleted ... > >|\ /| . Ack! (NAK, SOH, EOT) >{o O} . bryce@hoser.berkeley.EDU -or- ucbvax!hoser!bryce > (") > U *------------------------------------------------------------------------------* | UUCP: {allegra,seismo}!rochester!ritcv!ptp6186 | | ARPANET: ptp6186%rit@csnet-relay | | BITNET: ptp6186@ritvax.bitnet | *------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
acs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Tony Sumrall) (11/10/87)
In article <2710@cbmvax.UUCP> hedley@cbmvax.UUCP (Hedley Davis) writes: >We are scared S***LESS. The whole idea is to build machines which will >sell to allow us some breathing room so that we can design the next >batch. Undoubtly, no one will be satisfied with them either. We ( I ) >think there are alot of nice features, but then again, MWM won't. I want CBM to remain a viable business. As *I* perceive it, MWM's only bitch is that his investment in SOTS is lost...that and he wants assurance that his machine will continue to be supported-I feel the same way. I'm not upset with the 2000's new features. I'm not terribly happy that my machine doesn't have 'em but, hey, I bought early. I just want continued support for my HW and KS/WB upgrades for my 1000. Nuff said. -- Tony Sumrall acs@amdahl.com <=> amdahl!acs [ Opinions expressed herein are the author's and should not be construed to reflect the views of Amdahl Corp. ]
andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) (11/11/87)
In article <5807@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: >In article <2696@cbmvax.UUCP> andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) writes: > >A mostly reasonable response, but... > ><>Let's get to the important thing first. I claimed that a posting from ><>a CBM employee asking people to contemplate what the A1000->A2000 ><>upgrade deal means was scary, because so contemplating leads to the ><>conclusion that CBM is going to do something *truly* nasty to A1000 ><>owners. > >He didn't answer the above comment. I thought I was saying something better---that software support for the A500/A200 equaled software support for the A1000. I decided that this thought would make you happier than a public statement of A1000 support from me; however, if it will make you happy, I plan to always fight to keep the A1000 supported through our OS software. (If such a fight becomes necessary, which is doubtful, anyway). >< First, I still can't get over that you're flaming about it ><now, over a year after it was announced. Anyway... > >Becuase I had chosen to ignore it (and the A2000) until CBM started >the upgrade deal. I understand now. For awhile I thought I was caught in a time warp, especially when you brought up flames on upgrading software to V1.2. :-) ><It shouldn't ><matter to you that the path depends on the efforts of 3rd party ><hardware vendors like Microbotics or ASDG. > >It doesn't - except for what it coming from third parties tells me >about CBM as a company. > What it tells me is that we're a fairly small company. We don't have the people and resources to do everything. Third party companies that put out quality products (like Microbotics and ASDG) help fill the gap. The respective A1000 to A2000 upgrade niches that each company has chosen to occupy seem perfectly suited to third party companies. (and personally, I'm happy that both are doing it). ><>Most of the replies from CBM on the net were just "Shut up" in more or ><>less (mostly more) polite tones. >< ><Hey, not from me. I've tried to respond to your postings with facts! > >True. You didn't even ask me to take the complaints elsewhere. Well, some people take these things personally. (Some very personally) To me, it doesn't matter. I fight my battles internally before we do something, then either way, support it publically the best I can. And, reading the complaints if often an educational experience :-) >Doesn't matter what you mean it to be - especially considering how >little I've heard about what that slot is for. Does the manual >specifically say that it's for *ONE* SOTS box? As a matter of fact, it says...well, let me quote from manual, (Feb 4th, 1986), Amiga Expansion Architecture, page 1 "For timing and FCC reasons, it is probably not feasible to configure a system with more than two external backplanes attached. Even with only two, the timing is very tight, so the designer must be careful." and on page 2.... "WARNING As of this preliminary writing, we have only tested a single backplane by itself, so it should be born in mind that some of the guidelines given here are not yet tested. We are especially concerned that the address and data may not make it to PICs in the second expansion box in time, unless capacitance and noise are extremely well controlled. We will update these guidelines as our development work progresses, but you must be responsible for your own worst-case analysis." So, while there was no prohibition on two SOTS, there were extreme warnings. If I were a SOTS designer, I would be extremely cautious in passing the bus, therefore, especially after seeing the line "only tested a single backplane" because I would know that it meant "if it worked reliably with two backplanes, we'd have said so". ><Only because you don't want to adopt any of the solutions offered ><to you. (only one of which involves changing machines) > >Let's look at the solutions > > 1) Run an A2000 with a new memory card. > 2) Ditto, with the cover off. > 3) Ditto, with a magic cable. > 4) Something like the A2000-n-1 > 5) Try to live with what little is left of the A1000 expansion market. > >Three only showed up in a reply to the same posting you replied to. >That's three that require a new machine. One that requires a an >expansion box that isn't available yet - partly because CBM hasn't >been shipping cards to test them with. 1 through 3 are how to move your A1000 cards over. 4 is the key for you...as I said, I have used a Zorro backplane connected to my A1000 and have both A1000 and A2000 cards plugged in, and have had no problems. You could do the same, and thus have access to whatever A2000 cards are around. SOTS isn't an issue in your case; (and it is confusing the issues in your posting; what you seem to want is the ability to connect two backplanes, see warning above) they'll work as well using the Zorro backplane as they always did. -- andy finkel {ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy Commodore-Amiga, Inc. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo." Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share. I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) (11/11/87)
How about Commodore (or anybody else) putting up the $2000 MWM wants, so we can finally dump him on comp.sys.mac, comp.sys.atari, comp.sys.ibmpc, or comp.sys.coco (he loves THAT, I bet he'll start it alone!). -- Marco
bilbo@pnet02.cts.com (Bill Daggett) (11/11/87)
I don't think computer companies and businesses are any brighter then
civilizations (past or present).
*Bilbo* Recombinant Hobbit
* Sometimes The Dragon Wins! *
INTERNET: bilbo@pnet02.CTS.COM
UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd!crash, ihnp4!scgvaxd }!gryphon!pnet02!bilbo
WHAT?:craig@unicus.UUCP (11/11/87)
Well, maybe now we can more or less wrap up the compatibility debate.
andy finkel says:
You can use (1) Zorro I and (2) Zorro II on an A500
You can use (3) Zorro I and (4) Zorro II on an A1000
You can use (5) Zorro I and (6) Zorro II on an A2000
I believe it. Now, the question is *how*. These are how I understand
the answers:
(1) by plugging them in upside down and backwards (annoying, free)
(2) a) by buying a 2000-and-1 (convenient, $700+)
OR
b) by plugging them in normally and
covering them in a metal case. (annoying, cheap)
(3) by plugging them in normally. (convenient, free)
(4) a) by buying a 2000-and-1 (convenient, $700+)
OR
b) by plugging them in normally and
covering them in a metal case. (annoying, cheap)
(5) by leaving the cover off. (annoying, free)
(6) by plugging them in normally (convenent, free)
If any of these are wrong, please correct me publicly so the facts
are straight. I will proceed on the assumption they are correct.
Now, of these eight DIFFERENT methods and potential sets of problems,
(an issue in itself), only (3) and (6) are acceptable to the novice user,
and therefore the lowest common denominator.
The others are "solder solutions", or very expensive, or have other problems.
These problems are *not* necessarily with the form factor. Some (1,2,4) are
simply packaging problems. They should be solved by making the following
devices available to Amiga users, through Commodore, so that they are
guaranteed to be available to *any* user, no matter how far off the
beaten track. Hardware manufacturers should sell, them, too.
A. An A500 SOTS case that encapsulates one Zorro I or II card, and
passes the bus connector through (or not).
B. An A1000 SOTS case that encapsulates one Zorro I or II card, and
passes the bus connector through. It *must* pass it through.
C. An A2000 card that simply passes the bus out and around so
that a SOTS can be placed on the side of the A2000.
I believe C., or some form of it, is already available for ~$40 from ASDG.
This solves problem (5). I believe that was Mike Meyer's objection.
A. solves problem (1) and (2a). It lets an A500 owner use any card available
and mix-and-match with other SOTS, as many as he dares.
B. solves problem (4b). It lets an A1000 owner use any card available
and mix-and-match with other SOTS, as many as he dares.
Each of these should sell for about US$40 or less. For all the grief they
are going to save Commodore and its developers and users and dealers in terms
of many potential interfacing problems, multiple FCC approvals, having to find
an appropriate version, keeping your upgrade paths alive, and having to keep
several different packages in inventory... Commodore should pay people to
take it, or at least just give it away free for the asking to any Amiga owner.
It really must be distributed by Commodore. All hardware manufacturers should
be made aware that they will produce Zorro II cards, only Zorro II cards, and
more Zorro II cards until the end of time... developer status should be
rescinded for anyone who makes any other SOTS stuff after a certain date.
(I mean, let `em make all the weirdo stuff they want, but keep the Zorro II
the *only* multiple-expansion-card method there is).
ASDG could make and produce it, if they have a mind. After all, they've
already done a third of the job. And these are, as I understand, passive
devices, and therefore very cheap to produce. Commodore should buy the
rights and make sure every expanding A500 owner knows to buy an "Expander"
and put cards in it, and not to buy other nonstandard goop, unless he
happens to need more than two or three cards, in which case the 2000-and-1
is right there. Likewise for A1000 owners. They can simply buy Zorro II
cards like everyone else, and buy (or get free!) a new Expander for each.
Such things would probably be very cheap to make. If someone inside
Commodore would add up the benefits (in support, goodwill, manpower)
versus the costs (about two bucks), they'd do it, or contract ASDG to do it,
in short order.
They are fools if they don't. But that's just an opinion, albeit a good one.
By the way, unless I've missed something, I fail to see why this debate
should continue to take up net.bandwidth. The above suggestion is workable
and user-friendly and developer-friendly and dealer-friendly and Commodore-
friendly. Its the only correct path out of the situation that I can see.
"Expand your A500 ? Easy, the `Expander 500' is free with any
card you buy. Expand it more ? Get a 2000-and-1
and have a dirt-cheap workstation."
"Keeping your A1000 ? Easy, the `Expander 1000' is free with any
card you buy. And it plugs into any existing expansion, or the
2000-and-1 for true expandability."
"Upgrading to an A2000 ? Easy, the `Expander 2000' is just a few
bucks, and you can use any of your A1000 expansions. And they
all take up just one single slot. Expand to fill the rest."
Well, Perry ? I've even named the damn things for you. :-)
Sell Commodore on the idea, if they aren't already, and cut yourself in.
On another note, comp.sys.amiga currently costs about twice as much per user
to deliver as any other newsgroup. I submit that the attention of the
net.gods will be wrathful on us shortly, unless we learn to control our
own bandwidth. That means wrapping up debates like this more cleanly.
And posting sources and binaries to the appropriate groups.
One more thing: If I buy an A2000 Zorro II card (which is $400 cheaper
than the A1000 version), how *exactly* would I connect it to my A1000 ?
Do I, presently, have to build my own case, as I've assumed above ?
Craig Hubley, Unicus Corporation, Toronto, Ont.
craig@Unicus.COM (Internet)
{uunet!mnetor, utzoo!utcsri}!unicus!craig (dumb uucp)
mnetor!unicus!craig@uunet.uu.net (dumb arpa)farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) (11/11/87)
In article <5118@oberon.USC.EDU> papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) writes: > >How about Commodore (or anybody else) putting up the $2000 MWM wants, so we >can finally dump him on comp.sys.mac, comp.sys.atari, comp.sys.ibmpc, >or comp.sys.coco (he loves THAT, I bet he'll start it alone!). Lighten up. I, for one, think that the whole Amiga community owes Mike a big vote of thanks. He's been one of the best proselytizers for the Amiga we've had, and has produced a lot of fine software (I, for example would find it hard to get around without microGnuemacs, and that wouldn't be nearly so nice if Mike hadn't made it Amiga-aware). I think the bitching and moaning is dying off now, why not just let it? -- ---------------- Michael J. Farren "... if the church put in half the time on covetousness unisoft!gethen!farren that it does on lust, this would be a better world ..." gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa Garrison Keillor, "Lake Wobegon Days"
grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) (11/11/87)
In article <777@ritcv.UUCP> ptp6186@ritcv.UUCP (Paul T. Pryor) writes: > In article <21704@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> bryce@hoser.berkeley.edu (Bryce Nesbitt) writes: > > > >The A501's real time clock cannot be easily calibrated. The > >case is soldered shut and there is no access hole to the > >trimmer capacitor. > > Agreed. Now, it is a simple matter of drilling a hole in the cover. > The bad new is that in order to twiddle the trimmer cap, it is > necessary to remove the A501 from the A500. The other alternative > is to remove the top case, and about once a week, twiddle the > clock (first moving the keyboard out of the way). When the clock > is back to specs, put the top case back on. This would kill the > warranty for both the A500 and the A501 :-(. Ugh, you weren't supposed to mention that! 8-) There really should be a couple holes over the trimmer cap and TP3 to make adjustment simple, but I was still busy trying to get the board layout done and thru FCC to keep a close eye on the mechanical people that did the shields. Maybe we can do something about it, but it would take months for the holes to show up in your dealer. Since the clock is battery powered, you can adjust it outside the machine, however the test point is disabled and you would have to measure the frequency directly at the crystal. Unfortunatly, you need a special inductive or ultra-low capacitance probe for this, since any loading at the crystal will shift the frequency. This is one of those situations where there does't seem to be a real elegant solution that wouldn't jack up the price of the expansion or require unusual test equipment. At least they are adjusted at the factory. -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: out to lunch... Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) (11/11/87)
In article <21704@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> bryce@hoser.berkeley.edu (Bryce Nesbitt) writes: > In article <2696@cbmvax.UUCP> andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) writes: > > > >Now, here's the interesting part... > >the address space for the ROM is 512K. What if we were to take > >advantage of this, and start putting in 512K of ROM into the > >A500 and the A2000 ? > > Except that the extra PC trace needed for this was never run to > the rom socket. :-( The decoding is in place, however. Please look at the schematics. You should find an a line labeled A18 running over to the ROM socket. Simple calculations will show that this is one more address line than is required to address the 256K of ROM currently implemented. > I hope C= goes to a 512K ROM anyway, it's obvious the space could be > well used. Yes, it would be useful, however doing this would be the first straw in having system software that would differ between the A500/A2000 and the A1000. Perhaps a better use would be some sort of "ROM Disk" that would eliminate much of the need to always have a workbench diskette mounted. > The right hand side of the A500's keyboard needs another support. > And the A2000's keyboard needs to learn some tricks from the A500 :-). Are you sure you didn't discard your FCC shield? All the A500's I've checked out have the right hand side firmly supported. -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: out to lunch... Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) (11/11/87)
In article <4410@well.UUCP> ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes: > [ My turn: ] > > I bought an Amiga 1000 in October 1985. > I like it. I'm keeping it. So there. > > What has this got to do with the price of pogo sticks? Well, take > the $C00000 RAM idea, for example. First off, it was a crude hack, executed > purely to save money. All the $C00000 RAM boards I've seen "feel" cheap and > flakey, not to mention the fact that they're useless in the 500 and 2000 Note the the C0 memory was originally part of Amiga's plan for how to have "fast" internal memory for the followup products. As with other aspects of the A1000 slap-on-the-side expansion products, they had little control over what the third party vendors actually shipped. > I think the > $C00000 RAM hack should have been shot down by Amiga the moment it was > proposed. Oh well, that's 20/20 hindsight for you. Um, hard to shoot down your own idea and impossible to control the hackers of the world. The A500 internal expansions cause the same kind of pain, since the power supply isn't intended to support another 1.5 or 2 MB of memory. > I firmly believe that some > brilliant hacker somewhere will come up with a daughterboard that will allow > me to use the new Fat Agnus when it becomes available (Dale Luck told me > he's going to fight for a pin arrangement that at least has a chance of > working in a 1000). Good luck. If it were only a plug in chip, there would be more hope, but remember that you also need to kludge in the additional "chip" memory, requiring some considerable amount of main-board hackery in addition to your daughterboard. The A1000 embodies a number of design tradeoffs that make this an uphill battle. Of course all of these must have been CBM's fault... I can forsee no useful purpose for the video slot that > can't be addressed in another way (suggestions anyone?). The greatest impact is having access to the 12 bits of digital video. Also important is having a nice warm home for audio/visual devices with all the i/o signals and power easily available. If you talk to the third party hardware vendors, you will find that making printed circuit cards is no big deal, the nut cruncher when it comes to getting the product to market is often the casework, power supplys and the capitol requied to make "systems". > I finally met Dave Needle, one of the hardware types at Amiga, now > working for EPYX, working on some secret goodie. I had a very long and > entertaining talk with him, during which, he related numerous war stories > about the birth of the Amiga, and the in-fighting between Amiga and > Commodore. Please remember there are two sides to all these "facts" you relay. I could make a number of equivalently biased negative comments about Amiga but I don't see any particular benefit in this sort of sh*t tossing. > We have a great deal to thank the Amiga Los Gatos staff for. They > *FOUGHT* for what we now call the Amiga 1000. Commodore eventually chipped > away at their kingdom, took their design away, re-designed their machines > themselves (bungling it in the process (face it; there *are* functional > design differences)), re-packaged it, and sold them as the 500 and 2000. > The new machines don't even have the checkmark on them anymore. Instead > they bear the Commodore "chickenhead". Bah! West Chester did the A500 because Los Gatos refused to seriously consider the kind of tradeoffs required to meet the price point for a "consumer Amiga". The whole sidecar/A2000 situation was engendered by the failure of the "Transformer" product to live up to the early claims, and the subsequent failures of several hardware assisted PC compatibility devices the Amiga attempted. > I bear no animosity towards the CATS staff. In fact, I love them > (especially Carolyn Sheppner, for all her source code (the semaphore example > in particular)). It's the egotistical management-type boobs I don't like. > In fact, after listening to Needle, I find it amazing that the Amiga ever > saw the light of day. Leo, if you had the time an opportunity to talk to all the people on both sides of the fence, you'd probably be wondering where most of the "bad guys" went to. There's a tendency to cannonize the dead and castigate the living, but if you look closer you'll find a bunch of people trying to do the best they could, given their personal view of situation and their personal constraints. There's been a lot of noise about corporate cultures, but I suspect what happened is the result of *both sides* failing to develop a productive accomodation to each others needs, coupled with the very real difficulties Commodore was encountering during the same period. > One thing is certain, however. It would have been much worse with > Tramiel at the wheel. And might not have been much better with any other fairy godmother that came along. In reality, only Commodore was willing to pick up the tab. > Anyway, I'm keeping my 1000; I suggest you all do the same. > It feels right. Leo, you wouldn't have bought it if it didn't feel right. However, I suspect there are a large number of people out there who will feel that the A500 is "right" for them, and another group that will feel the same about the A2000. Subjective is just that... -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: out to lunch... Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) (11/11/87)
Oh I see.
Well, what do we know, we are just the customer.
Remember, we are profit, you are overhead.
And if you want to tell Mikes Meyer to shove it, at least have the
semi-good taste to do it in Email.
It's been said before and it bears repeating.
IF YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING IN THIS GROUP, SKIP IT.
What kind of place would it be if we all sat around with our
thumbs up our collective asses saying "Duh, yup, those guys can do no
wrong. Everything is just peachy." Try the Mac group for that.
"Only through suffering can we acheive perfection"
- Checkov
(or Sulu, or Uhuru or somebody)
--
Richard J. Sexton
INTERNET: richard@gryphon.CTS.COM
UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, ihnp4, nosc}!crash!gryphon!richard
"It's too dark to put the keys in my ignition..."bryan@mothra.cs.utexas.edu (Bryan Bayerdorffer) (11/12/87)
In article <2721@cbmvax.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: =- Maybe we can do something about it, but it would =-take months for the holes to show up in your dealer. Look out! He's got a gun! 8^} ______________________________________________________________________________ /_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/ |_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| _No dark sarcasm in the classroom|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|___ |____Teachers leave the kids alone__|_____|_____|bryan@mothra.cs.utexas.edu___| ___|_____|_____|_____|___{ihnp4,seismo,...}!ut-sally!mothra.cs.utexas.edu!bryan |_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|
cs162ffl@sdcc18.ucsd.EDU (John Schultz) (11/12/87)
The simple solution to hushing the net.babies is to simply ingore their cries. Typical sociopaths love attention, positive or negative and they'll do whatever it takes to get it. I guarantee you, if no one responded to mwm et al, those single postings would be passed up and covered with other more important, creative mail that would promote learning and development. On the other hand, if everyone responds to all the flak, then the flames are just propagated onto the next day, and the next, and so on. If someone tears apart your message, let it pass. You'll be far greater than they by not responding. Suggesting improvements is one thing, but repetious monotonic degradation is certainly not going to please anyone, only generate more of the same. If one *must* respond to a posting, just reply to the sender, please don't make everyone else experience these people's insecurites. Yes, this posting is inconsistent as to what I have just written, but with the exception that I will not respond to any non-creative messages or anything that does not promote the general good. John Lighten up, guys. Let's get back to work.
dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU.UUCP (11/12/87)
:In article <2721@cbmvax.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes:
:=- Maybe we can do something about it, but it would
:=-take months for the holes to show up in your dealer.
:
: Look out! He's got a gun! 8^}
No, no... *I* Have the gun. <Matt Dillon>, natch. Ever heard
of electronic bullets?
-Mattdaveh@cbmvax.UUCP (11/12/87)
in article <4410@well.UUCP>, ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) says: > The new machines don't even have the checkmark on them anymore. Instead > they bear the Commodore "chickenhead". Commodore invented the Checkmark. Amiga wanted the Boing! instead. All A500s have the chicken lips, all A2000s have no mark at all, just a plain commodore AMIGA 2000 on them. Except mine. All my Amigas have Boings! If I ever run into you at a show somewhere, yours can too. Then you'll have WHAT WAS ORIGINALLY INTENDED. > Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape ihnp4!ptsfa -\ > \_ -_ Recumbent Bikes: dual ---> !{well,unicom}!ewhac > O----^o The Only Way To Fly. hplabs / (pronounced "AE-wack") > "Work FOR? I don't work FOR anybody! I'm just having fun." -- The Doctor -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga Usenet: {ihnp4|caip|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh "The B2000 Guy" PLINK : D-DAVE H BIX : hazy "Computers are what happen when you give up sleeping" - Iggy the Cat
peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (11/13/87)
How about waiting for the Amiga 3000? I don't know about you, but I don't think paying another $1000 for the same computer I already have as an upgrade. -- -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter -- Disclaimer: These U aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.
mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (11/13/87)
In article <2710@cbmvax.UUCP> hedley@cbmvax.UUCP (Hedley Davis) writes:
<Oh man. Do you guys have any idea what its like checking out this
<newsgroup every day, and seeing 2-5 MWM messages bitching and moaning ?
You don't like it, ignore it. I'll mail you a copy of rn if you don't
got KILL files.
I, on the other hand, can't ignore the A2000 and the changed Zorro
specs. Every time I call a dealer looking for hardware, I get reminded
of it.
<The second step is the next generation of machines. Don't think we
<are sitting here on our high horse laughing all the way to the bank.
Which, so I've been told, will have *yet another* bus. Maybe compatable
with Zorro ][, maybe not.
<We are scared S***LESS. The whole idea is to build machines which will
<sell to allow us some breathing room so that we can design the next
<batch.
To quote a Go master: "If that's the best way you can live, then you
might as well drop dead." If you don't play go, you'll probably
misinterpet it. But it applies so perfectly to this case, I'm going to
let it stand.
<Undoubtly, no one will be satisfied with them either. We ( I )
<think there are alot of nice features, but then again, MWM won't.
Depends. If you do things to sell machines, as opposed to trying to
produce a killer machine, probably not. Then again, if I was satisfied
with what sold machines, I would've bought an IBM PC long ago.
<But honestly, with Meyer dead set on undermining everything we do,
<and several other people complaining that everything we do is wrong,
<and stupid, and useless, and how our management sucks, I gotta
<wonder why I bother coming to work in the morning.
What makes you think I'm dead set on undermining everything you do?
Let's see - have I killed any Amiga sales? Probably, but I was doing
that before there was an A2000 to bitch about. All I did was tell a
writer that he ought to buy a machine that's he's comfortable using.
The Amiga wasn't it. I've also probably killed sales post-A2000. Did I
do so buy lieing, saying nasty things about CBM, or otherwise acting
like Tramiel? No - unless you consider telling the truth to be "saying
nasty things about CBM." All I did was describe the Zorro I -> Zorro ][
change. I carefully pointed out that the cards would work in either
bus, but if you put it in the wrong one, you'd have to run with the
cover off. Since these people normally deal with serious machines,
that was quite sufficient.
<If I was a paranoid type, I'd swear alot of this net.bandwidth is
<a Tramielian plot or something.
Tramiel had nothing to do with it. Probably isn't sharp enough to
realize that it's an effective tool.
<I mean, most of this is accomplishing two things:
< 1) Pissing off the net gods -> threatening to hurt the
< newsgroup.
< 2) Killing sales of new machines to people who stop in and
< read a little bit of this stuff.
You think I don't know this? Be careful not to confuse *acting*
irrational with *being* irrational. There are ratoinal reasons to act
irrationally.
Or maybe you object to having CBM's dirty underwear displayed in public?
Well, who's to blame for them being dirty?
<It definitely does NOT accomplish one thing:
< 1) Effect positive change ( Who listens to total whiners ?)
I dunno - with luck, the next time around, you'll bloody well have an
upgrade path. If I've convinced even *one* person that this is a good
idea, then it was worth it.
<Oh, and by the way mike: Shove it.
I would, but it seems to have stuck in your craw.
<mike
--
Love and affection, Mike Meyer
Of the corporate kind. mwm@berkeley.edu
It's just belly to belly, ucbvax!mwm
Never eye to eye. mwm@ucbjade.BITNETmwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (11/13/87)
In article <5118@oberon.USC.EDU> papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) writes:
<How about Commodore (or anybody else) putting up the $2000 MWM wants, so we
<can finally dump him on comp.sys.mac, comp.sys.atari, comp.sys.ibmpc,
<or comp.sys.coco (he loves THAT, I bet he'll start it alone!).
You feel that strongly about it, why don't *you* put up the $2000?
Better yet, I'll make you a special deal - send me half that, and I'll
never post to any amiga group again.
And I don't need to start a comp.sys.coco - it's already being done.
<mike
--
Teddies good friend has his two o'clock feast Mike Meyer
And he's making Teddies ex girl friend come mwm@berkeley.edu
They mistook Teddies good trust ucbvax!mwm
Just for proof that Teddy was dumb. mwm@ucbjade.BITNETmwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (11/13/87)
In article <2718@cbmvax.UUCP> andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) writes:
<4 is the key for you...as I said, I have used a Zorro backplane
<connected to my A1000 and have both A1000 and A2000 cards plugged in,
<and have had no problems. You could do the same, and thus
<have access to whatever A2000 cards are around.
Fine. So where do I buy Zorro II backplanes without having to buy a new
computer I don't particularly want?
<(and it is confusing the issues
<in your posting; what you seem to want is the ability to
<connect two backplanes, see warning above)
You're right - what *I* want is the ability to connect to Zorro
backplanes. But others will (do, from the postings regarding hacks to
various SOTS boxes, whether they pass the bus or not) want to connect
a SOTS to a Zorro backplane. True, it won't work very well; it never
really did. But if CBM had an 86-pin connector on the A2000, it'd have
a *much* better chance of working than it does now.
<mike
--
It's been a hard day's night, Mike Meyer
And I been working like a dog. mwm@berkeley.edu
It's been a hard day's night, ucbvax!mwm
I should be sleeping like a log. mwm@ucbjade.BITNETkent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) (11/13/87)
In article <2721@cbmvax.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >There really should be a couple holes over the trimmer cap and TP3 to >make adjustment simple, but I was still busy trying to get the board >layout done and thru FCC to keep a close eye on the mechanical people >that did the shields. Maybe we can do something about it, but it would ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >take months for the holes to show up in your dealer. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I know there's been a little discontent about some Amiga dealers (ignorance of the hardware, backorders, lack of service, etc.) expressed on the net, but I really think this is a bit extreme. Besides, why wait months? Any Saturday night special will do the job in fractions of a second. ;-) Kent, the man from xanth.
bryce@hoser.berkeley.edu (Bryce Nesbitt) (11/13/87)
In article <5883@> (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: < <...Let's see - have I killed any Amiga sales? Probably, but I was doing <that before there was an A2000 to bitch about.... <...All I did was describe the Zorro I -> Zorro ][ <change. I carefully pointed out that the cards would work in either <bus, but if you put it in the wrong one, you'd have to run with the <cover off. Since these people normally deal with serious machines, <that was quite sufficient... Mike, *you* have the form factor problem. Anyone who buys an A2000 now does not. There are more Zorro II cards than Zorro I. You know that, you keep complaing about it. Zorro I is a non-issue unless you happen to have a card with that form factor. If you plan to respond, Mike, mail a copy as well. This subject just hit my kill file. ---------------------- If you are sick of this subject, you can hit 'k' or 'K' also. Uppercase K is forever, lowercase just kills current messages. You can also hit '=' to get a quick overview of what is in comp.sys.amiga. This all assumes the 'rn' news reading interface. ---------------------- |\ /| . Ack! (NAK, SOH, EOT) {o O} . bryce@hoser.berkeley.EDU -or- ucbvax!hoser!bryce (") U
mwm@MICA.BERKELEY.EDU (11/13/87)
In article <21759@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> Bryce writes: <In article <5883@> (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: << <<...Let's see - have I killed any Amiga sales? Probably, but I was doing <<that before there was an A2000 to bitch about.... <<...All I did was describe the Zorro I -> Zorro ][ <<change. I carefully pointed out that the cards would work in either <<bus, but if you put it in the wrong one, you'd have to run with the <<cover off. Since these people normally deal with serious machines, <<that was quite sufficient... < <Mike, *you* have the form factor problem. Anyone who buys an <A2000 now does not. There are more Zorro II cards than Zorro I. Look again. I didn't tell anyone that they - or anyone else, for that matter - would have a form factor problem. All I did was tell them that CBM had changed the form factor. Zorro I isn't merely a non-issue, it's history. Those sales I've killed by telling people about the form factor would have been to people who learn from history. That's why the sales died. I've *never* told any of the people involved why the form factor change was a bad thing. Never had to - the usual reaction ("Great. Let's f*ck everyone." or "So CBM still has a death wish?") precludes it. <mike -- -- All around my hat, I will wear the green willow. Mike Meyer And all around my hat, for a twelve-month and a day. mwm@berkeley.edu And if anyone should ask me, the reason why I'm wearing it, ucbvax!mwm It's all for my true love, who's far far away. mwm@ucbjade.BITNET
peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (11/13/87)
In article <5838@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: > In article <992@sugar.UUCP> peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: > <In article <8711040542.AA29099@violet.berkeley.edu>, mwm@VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike Meyer, My watch has windows) writes: > <> I've continually pointed out that the Amiga didn't introduce > <> multitasking to the home computer market. > <Then who did? Not counting third-party software for the IBM-PC that doesn't > <run fast enough to be useful even on an AT? The Radio Shack Color Computer? > Sorry, but multitasking systems for home computers predate the IBM-PC > and the color computer. > > OS/9 is old enough that the original version had a flavor that ran off > of a cassette deck. I know about OS/9. Now then, what was the first machine that supported OS/9 for the home computer market. Not the personal computer market or the business computer market, but the home computer market. That means: a home computer (one that costs much less than a small car) with a 6809 or a 68000, and a manufacturer willing to support it. The Radio Shack Color Computer is all I can think of. > <> I've even been pointing out > <> that I can buy a cheaper multi-tasking, windowing system than an A500. > < > <OK. Name it. I hope you're not talking about the Radio Shack Color Computer > <or the Sinclair Quantum Leap. Those are the only ones I can think of and both > <are effectively dead puppies. > > Yeah, I'm talking about the CoCo. It may be a dead puppy, but people > are still starting new hardware expansion products for it. Like what? > Can the > same be said for the A1000? Amiga Live!. But you said starting. Any decent Amiga 2000 peripherals will fit in a Zorro box. In fact I was just looking at a brand new 2-slot Zorro II box. > And people are also still doing software > work for it. The Amiga 2000 is 100% software compatible with the 500 and 2000. 100%. Remember that number. > So I'd say that it's got more life than the A1000. I'd have to disagree. I'm keeping my A1000 until the A3000 comes out with a 68020 and MMU built in. (Please?) > In fact, the new one can have more memory than the A500 comes with, > and has an MMU. But it doesn't come with more memory, does it? You can't put 9.5 megabytes of RAM on it, no? And you can't address all that memory directly. That wipes it out for me. If I wanted to fiddle with mapped memory I'd get an IBM-PC. The hardware's cheaper. -- -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter -- Disclaimer: These U aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.
kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) (11/13/87)
In article <8711120847.AA14889@cory.Berkeley.EDU> dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) writes: >:In article <2721@cbmvax.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >:=- Maybe we can do something about it, but it would >:=-take months for the holes to show up in your dealer. >: >: Look out! He's got a gun! 8^} > > No, no... *I* Have the gun. <Matt Dillon>, natch. Ever heard >of electronic bullets? > > -Matt Aw, come on! Lead bullets get there in fractions of a second, and electronic ones take _months_? Matt, your TV namesake was known for being _quick_ on the draw. Looks like the competition must have been a bunch of glacier desperados. (Stop..stop..noooo...I can't resist, I just can't...) "Alright you, lemme see those calves in the air!" (Muzzle him..Too late...I think it's too late!) Kent, the (short life expectancy) man from xanth.
larryr@sdsu.UUCP (Larry Riedel) (11/13/87)
In article <5884@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: >You feel that strongly about it, why don't *you* put up the $2000? >Better yet, I'll make you a special deal - send me half that, and I'll >never post to any amiga group again. I would be willing to put up $20. 49 more people, and we'll be there! -Larry
klm@munsell.UUCP (Kevin [Being Weird Isn't Enough] McBride) (11/13/87)
In article <2746@cbmvax.UUCP> daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes: > >Commodore invented the Checkmark. Amiga wanted the Boing! instead. All >A500s have the chicken lips, all A2000s have no mark at all, just a plain >commodore AMIGA 2000 on them. Except mine. All my Amigas have Boings! >If I ever run into you at a show somewhere, yours can too. Then you'll have >WHAT WAS ORIGINALLY INTENDED. > >Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga Um, Dave, how about uuencoding it and posting it here so we can all have it? :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) But, seriously, I would *love* to have a Boing! logo on my Amiga!! Now, that would *feel right*!! Consider this to be customer input. Unfortunately, my employer doesn't think it necessary to send me to shows. And I'm not rich enough to go gallavanting all over the country out of my own pocket. When's the next big show in the Boston area?? I feel depraved, um, err, deprived. -- Kevin McBride, the guy in the brace // | Your mind is totally controlled Eikonix - A Kodak Co. // | It has been stuffed into my mold Billerica, MA \\ // Amiga | And you will do as you are told {encore,adelie}!munsell!klm \X/ Rules! | until the rights to you are sold
grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) (11/13/87)
In article <5885@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: > > <(and it is confusing the issues > <in your posting; what you seem to want is the ability to > <connect two backplanes, see warning above) > > You're right - what *I* want is the ability to connect to Zorro > backplanes. But others will (do, from the postings regarding hacks to > various SOTS boxes, whether they pass the bus or not) want to connect > a SOTS to a Zorro backplane. True, it won't work very well; it never > really did. But if CBM had an 86-pin connector on the A2000, it'd have > a *much* better chance of working than it does now. Mike, in case you didn't notice. The A2000 just happens to have an 86 pin connector in it. It's cleverly described as either the MMU connector or the coprocessor slot. It just happens (who me?) to have the same pinout as the 86 pin as the A1000 expansion connecter, but of course in true West Chester fashion, the sex has been changed, but this actually is a good thing, or at least the only reasonable solution. Now this connector can be used just like the A1000 expansion connector, IF, IF, and ONLY IF you *don't* have any Zorro expansion cards plugged in. If you do plug in cards, life is apt to become quite confusing and I don't even want to try to guess what will work and what won't. You might want to ask why this little coincidence came to be. First, it does give the technically sophisticated A1000 user a little bit of a temporary upgrade path, albeit messy and unsupported, but sooner or later he'll most likely find a victim for his A1000 peripherals and will want to get some of the new goodies for his A2000. Secondly, it assures that any A2000 coprocessor cards should be easily adaptable to work on an A500 or A1000. Again, *completely unsupported*, but if the hooks are there, the hackers of the world will come up with the adapters. Happy yet? Sure it would be nice if there was an 86-pin connector sticking out the left-hand side of the box, but it doesn't look like it could be done reliably, and many SOTS devices weren't any too reliable in the first place. The idea of daisy chaining backplanes or devices sounds nice, but this is a whiz-bang digital computer, not a f*****g freight train. I think the Amiga folk were being a little more optimistic than realistic on this. Now I think I may have been the person who set you off on this prolonged tirade in the first place, when you came up with a perhaps justifiably paranoid interpretation of a comment I made. It may not be obvious, but I don't have time to answer every question that comes up, especially if I can't come up with a quick, informative, helpful reply, but know I have to type in some complicated missive, taking great care to avoid stepping or toes here, or hurting someones feelings out there. Everytime I type "rn" there's over 100 messages marked as being something I think I should comment on, or at least think about. After all, they pay me for being a design engineer, not a PR flack or even a developer/customer support being. Now to try to make things clear, all the people here who have worked on the A500, A1000 and A2000 have taken considerable pains to maintain a high degree of hardware* and software compatibility, while trying to incorporate what we consider to be improvements and accommodating the tradeoffs and compromises associated with the new products. We do not expect a sudden nasty change intended to screw over and cut off the A1000 owners, and would strongly object to such a thing. However, it is not within our authority or lack thereof to offer you any guaranty or commitment as to what Commodore may do in the future. * note: the Zorro I/Zorro II change was not West Chester engineering idea or decision, although we did get a chance to review the overall A2000 concept. Further, please remember that this is engineering here, and we run in a time warp that is anywhere from a few days to a year ahead of even usenet grapevine time. It is perfectly obvious that as time goes on new features and products will inevitably make the system you bought a year or two ago obsolescent and then obsolete, despite whatever efforts we make to maintain compatibility and create upgrade opportunities. This doesn't mean that it will be less useful than when you bought it, just that there will be better things and the world will have moved on. There still isn't any real market for classic computers, I've seen a PDP-11/45 system, the premier minicomputer of its era, sold at a flea market for $250. Now to work back around to my original comment, if you prefer the A1000, fine. If you like newer and in some ways better toys and have been tempted by the A2000, there's a special deal on, and now's a good time to take advantage of it, since I don't see it continuing much longer, nor a better deal coming along in a hurry. In either case, there'll be something better out the next year, and the next year, and the year after that, but if you wait for technological change to slow down, you're in for a long wait... -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: out to lunch... Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
hedley@cbmvax.UUCP (Hedley Davis) (11/13/87)
About this whole mess: 1) I should not have told mike to shove it on the net. But I did, and, as Leo would say, It felt right. :-) ( Its also nice to have seen him sink equally low ). 2) We don't care if y'all complain about problems. Really. This is a good thing, and can help everyone if done right. 3) We DO care if you just get on, and say the same thing over and over again. It doesn't matter whether its true or false or positive or negative. Its just annoying. Kind of like talking to a senile person who just keeps repeating "Gee, looks like rain today". 4) We also don't really like having lots of yap going on about things that absolutely cannot be changed. The yap won't help. If you have to do it once or twice to get it off you chest, fine, but really there must have been at least 50 postings all along the same lines. The latter 40 won't change the future, and they sure as hell can't change the past. 5) An interesting point as too the expansion specs. If we had to do it all over again, we'd do it pretty much the same way. Its the right way to go in our opinion. Noone has changed this. 6) Finally, I've gotten lots of positive EMAIL about this subject. As the Los Gatos crowd would say, "Thanks for your support". Hedley
schwager@uiucdcsm.cs.uiuc.edu (11/13/87)
...edited... > Leo, you wouldn't have bought it if it didn't feel right. However, I > suspect there are a large number of people out there who will feel > that the A500 is "right" for them, and another group that will feel > the same about the A2000. Subjective is just that... > > -- > George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!grr > but no way officially representing arpa: out to lunch... > Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) > /* End of text from uiucdcsm:comp.sys.amiga */ Damn straight! Let's face it, if it wasn't for the A500, I'd have a 520ST sitting at home. After years of looking longingly at the grad students doing all kinds of cool stuff on our Sun workstations, and getting bored with the graphics-less world of our minicomputers, I wanted something I could call my own. But what could I get for less than $1k? A Mac? NO way at all! Not even with University discount. An Amiga 1000? Nope. The computer itself was close to a grand. An IBM-PC? Eek- I'll just stick to the minis at work, thanks. An Apple II? Yesterday's hardware. An Atari ST? Hmmmm... now there's a thought. A 520ST color system for around $800, huh? 68000 processor, huh? Wellll..... oh, but wait! What's this? An Amiga what? 500? Never heard of it... What's it all about? Huh? An Amiga in a C-128 box? You mean I can get 512K ram, multitasking, excellent graphics, etc., etc., for the price of a 520ST?? Shoot, lemme at it!! ...this happy tale brought to you by one who used to only wonder what it would be like to have a decent machine to use at home... -mike schwager -- {ihnp4,convex,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!schwager schwager%uiuc@csnet-relay.arpa University of Illinois, Dept. of Computer Science
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (11/13/87)
in article <5883@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) says: > > Which, so I've been told, will have *yet another* bus. Maybe compatable > with Zorro ][, maybe not. The bus has NEVER changed, only the form-factor. At least you can speak accurately, I know you're intelligent enough to perform such a feat. And no one will have any reason to complain if we introduce a 32 bit buss that still runs 16 bit cards. Unless you can get your mindset convoluted enough to get angry about the fact that 32 bit cards would run faster than 16 bit cards, so we're "forcing" folks to upgrade to 32 bit. Or convince the world that there's never going to be a need for 32 bit cards. That would certainly make my job easier over the next year or two. > <We are scared S***LESS. The whole idea is to build machines which will > <sell to allow us some breathing room so that we can design the next > <batch. > > To quote a Go master: "If that's the best way you can live, then you > might as well drop dead." Which Go master? I'd rather hear from Zen masters, as what they say applies to any case. But regardless of the validity of the application, such an appication can very easily be pointless. Such as the current case. If I don't survive this generation, I can't progress to the next one. This principal is also applicable to all cases, and is far older and more universal than anything Go masters or Zen masters have considered in the paultry several thousand years they've existed. > All I did was describe the Zorro I -> Zorro ][ > change. I carefully pointed out that the cards would work in either > bus, but if you put it in the wrong one, you'd have to run with the > cover off. Since these people normally deal with serious machines, > that was quite sufficient. NO! These people don't normally deal with serious machines. The large majority of the world as we know it doesn't deal with serious machines. The world as we know it deals with (A) PC[lones] (B) C64s and (C) Apple IIs. Given that there are at least 12 million of A, 7 million of B, and 4 million of C. That's 23 million machines. Not a serious machine in the lot. The number of people who deal with real computers is much smaller. The number of people who'd understand the difference is quite a bit smaller than that. > You think I don't know this? Be careful not to confuse *acting* > irrational with *being* irrational. There are ratoinal reasons to act > irrationally. Let's not drag Ayn Rand into this... > Or maybe you object to having CBM's dirty underwear displayed in public? > Well, who's to blame for them being dirty? CBM certainly has underwear, but I suspect you've borrowed it to wear for awhile before displaying it in public. So who made it dirty. > I dunno - with luck, the next time around, you'll bloody well have an > upgrade path. If I've convinced even *one* person that this is a good > idea, then it was worth it. Naa. Maybe we'll be like Apple, and charge $800 for a 360K memory upgrade. Or be like everyone else, and offer no upgrade at all. AND DON'T START BRINGING UP MINICOMPUTERS AGAIN! If I paid $200,000 for a VAX, I'd expect and upgrade. At $2000 for an Amiga, I've got no place EXPECTING an upgrade. As YOU have pointed out, neither IBM nor Apple have offered similar upgrades, and they are the leaders in the PC market, aren't they? Sun and Apollo don't offer similar upgrades, and there are far more non-upgrades that George had mentioned. I'm beginning to wonder is CBM would have been shat upon as much with no upgrade. No, that's foolish. You're in a VAST minority in that respect, as witnessed by the fact that A2000s can't be made fast enough, almost to a serious degree. > <mike -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga Usenet: {ihnp4|caip|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh "The B2000 Guy" PLINK : D-DAVE H BIX : hazy "Computers are what happen when you give up sleeping" - Iggy the Cat
peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (11/14/87)
Let's get our story straight, why don't we? In article <685@louie.udel.EDU>, rminnich@udel.EDU (Ron Minnich) writes: > The 1000 was a wonderful machine. I have one. I also have a 500, > and of the two i much prefer the 500. The 1000 has problems. What are these problems? > First and most serious is SOTS. (Quick look at a 500 spec) I don't see any expansion slots here. Maybe they're hidden. I do see a SOTS connector. Oh, and here's an ad for an A500 SOTS memory box. Weird. > That was an ALG design and it was a mistake. Better than not providing any expansion capability at all, no? > Second big problem was KickStart. The whole point of the Amiga > is that you can do so much more, especially with multitasking. > But i can not multitask a V1.1 kickstart program and a V2.2 > kickstart program! The original amigans argue that kickstart > was a win; i think it was a botch. I am so happy with the 500 > and not having to put that kickstart disk in. But without the 1000 and kickstart there wouldn't be a 1.2 version of the operating system to put in the kickstart ROMS. > But let the marketplace decide, i think. And the marketplace > is saying that the 1000 was positioned wrong (few sold, really, > in relation to what it must have cost to develop) and that > the 500 and 2000 are positioned just right (my dealer can not > keep either in stock- they come in and they get sold right away- > i had to reserve my 500). This is all true. However, the 1000 is a fine machine in its own right. The 500 and the 2000 would not exist if it hadn't preceded them, and it's 100% software compatible with them. Remember the last time you saw a claim of 100% software compatibility and had it justified? I don't. > C= inherited a neat machine with some serious design problems. C= did more than inherit it. A lot of the design did originate at C=. I believe they can take credit for the large amount of RAM built in (Jay Miner wanted less) and the operating system. If it wasn't for the O/S, I wouldn't own the machine. > I think the 500 and 2000 have done a lot to remedy those problems. They have done a lot to remedy the marketing problems. The design is almost identical. In fact from a design standpoint the 1000 is far more aesthetically pleasing. SOTS or not. As the IBM-PC has shown, however, this is an incredibly minor point. > I think the 500 is one of the neatest machines i have seen in many > years. A lot of people seem to agree. I think the Amiga is the most important machine to hit the home computer market since the Macintosh, and maybe since the original Altair. I'm glad the 500 and 2000 are there to make sure I can still get software and hardware for it. I still wish they'd spent more time on the esthetics and left the Commodore logo off. However. Commodore has made some blunders in the 2000 design in the interests of painting it blue. I'm going to keep my 1000 until they come up with a genuinely superior machine. I'm rather glad they didn't, actually. I still haven't paid off my 1000. And I do think they can still do some work on the user interface. The 640 by 200 screen would be a lot more useful if I could drag windows off it, as you can on the Mac and the Atari. -- -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter -- Disclaimer: These U aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.
papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) (11/14/87)
In article <5118@oberon.USC.EDU> I write:
<<How about Commodore (or anybody else) putting up the $2000 MWM wants, so we
<<can finally dump him on comp.sys.mac, comp.sys.atari, comp.sys.ibmpc,
<<or comp.sys.coco (he loves THAT, I bet he'll start it alone!).
MWM responds:
<You feel that strongly about it, why don't *you* put up the $2000?
<Better yet, I'll make you a special deal - send me half that, and I'll
<never post to any amiga group again.
Sorry, but I am happy owner of an A1000 and and A2000 already, though I like
much better my A2000 (but you probably know that). Sincerely, considering
the current discounts given by dealers for used A1000s ($200-$500 depending on
condition), your offer is way too high. Probably $1000 would be more
appropriate. Good luck! By the way, A2000 sales are so high compared to
Commodore projections that there is actually a shortage of A2000 that has
impacted developers trying to get discounted machines. And you thought your
bitching produced decreased sales. Think again.
-- Marcogrr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) (11/14/87)
In article <3338@xanth.UUCP> kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: > In article <2721@cbmvax.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: > >There really should be a couple holes over the trimmer cap and TP3 to > >make adjustment simple, but I was still busy trying to get the board > >layout done and thru FCC to keep a close eye on the mechanical people > >that did the shields. Maybe we can do something about it, but it would > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >take months for the holes to show up in your dealer. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > I know there's been a little discontent about some Amiga dealers > (ignorance of the hardware, backorders, lack of service, etc.) > expressed on the net, but I really think this is a bit extreme. Well, make that "at your dealer" or "on your dealers shelves" - The point I was really trying to make was that the pipeline from the metal fabrication shop to dealer's shelves in many months long and this isn't exactly an emergency issue... > Besides, why wait months? Any Saturday night special will do the job > in fractions of a second. ;-) -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: out to lunch... Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
deanc@pnet02.cts.com (Dean Clark) (11/15/87)
Well when KS 1.3 comes out I'll be glad I still have my 1000. It is
much cheaper to buy a disk than a few chips.
One major advantage of a Writeable Control Storage is that you can c
customize it to your own setup. What do I mean well until recently
you couldn't do much but lately we have found ways to fool around with our KS
disks and change the WB insert promptand a new kludge to have a 8 color
WorkBench (if you ever use WB) and with this 8 color moification you can
do an interesting thing change your WorkBench to 2 color instead of 4 or 8
colors (this tends to speed things up a bit especially with other utilities
that speed up text). I am sure other things can be done it just takes a while
for people to disassemble KS and path things to do their ow customized KS).
Sure you could do this with a PROM but at a lot more work as well!
As for the 2000 may be some day I will own one but maybe I will wait for the
3000( or whatever it will be called).
PLEASE excuse punctuation I type ahead of this system and then look back
yt
to see what I forgot.
Later -Dean
UUCP: {cbosgd, hplabs!hp-sdd, ihnp4}!crash!gryphon!pnet02!deanc
INET: deanc@pnet02.CTS.COMgrr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) (11/15/87)
In article <1203@omepd> hah@mipon3.UUCP (Hans Hansen) writes: > [Line eater ... sick the jerk that killed the A1000 > > The real STUPID act is the A1000 + $1000 = A/B2000. While on the surface > this seems like a real nice offer, a closer look shows just how stupid it > really is. > > 1) It dose nothing to broaden the Amiga install base. Nonsense, it all but insures the existing A1000's will stay out in the field somewhere, either with some new user who didn't feel they could afford an A1000 before and now feel they're getting a real deal, or perhaps with the original owner. I don't expect any A1000's to meet the big scrap cruncher in the sky... > 2) It KILLED the value of the A1000 ! Buy back your A1000 for $50 !!! Sure, it depressed the used A1000 market price for a bit, but how much does that have to do with value? How many people have offered you A1000's for $50? I expect the price for used Amiga's will stay reasonable, except for some exchanges among friends or perhaps with in user's groups. For that matter Commodore is still selling A1000's, although the volume has dropped to a trickle now that the A500'a and A2000's are actually out on the dealer's shelves. > What C= should have done: I think you were being deliberatly obtuse here. The A2000 upgrade and the Commodore user's group software deal are what are known as "promotions". They are not giveaways, presents for existing users, attempts by Commodore to dabble in used brand-x equipment, or damage the dealers ability to sell software. > Items needing fixing by C= : > 1) Cheap box, improve the supports, add an option allowing Zorro I boards > to be housed within a CLOSED A/B2000. Try it Hans. I don't see any practical way to make such an adapter without prevent you from using any of the newer format cards. > 2) Extreamly BAD keyboard, take the SAG out... the existing keyboard > has more SAG than an old "NAG"*. The last time I checked, the A2000 keyboard springs a bit if you push on it, but seems pretty solid when you are actually typing. Pretty nice keyboard in other ways, except perhaps the shrunken function keys. > 3) Fix the internal clock setup program to allow the user to correctly > set the clock. Huh? > 4) Fix the hardware incompatability problems that cause programs that work > on a A1000 w/exp RAM to GURU on the B2000. More huh? The programs that fail on the A2000 seem to be the same ones that fail on an A1000 with expansion memory. There are utilities that clean up most of them, and if you have a real affection for defective software, you can rig up a little switch across J500 to disable expansion memory at will. -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: out to lunch... Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) (11/15/87)
In article <1061@sugar.UUCP> peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: > This is all true. However, the 1000 is a fine machine in its own right. > The 500 and the 2000 would not exist if it hadn't preceded them, and it's > 100% software compatible with them. Remember the last time you saw a > claim of 100% software compatibility and had it justified? I don't. Note that we have never claimed 100% software compatibility. The machines are highly compatible, but a clever, careless or demented programmer is sure to find ways to break things, or worse try to figure out which system they are runing on. > > C= inherited a neat machine with some serious design problems. > > C= did more than inherit it. A lot of the design did originate at C=. I > believe they can take credit for the large amount of RAM built in (Jay > Miner wanted less) and the operating system. If it wasn't for the O/S, > I wouldn't own the machine. This might be misleading. CBM wasn't directly involved in much of the design process, however CBM managment representatives may have exerted considerable influence in some areas. CBM also provided a moderate amount of support when Amiga was short on people resources, especially in the peripheral and the software areas. I believe there were a number of intersting points of contention between the Amiga folks and CBM managment, but I am not familiar enought with the details to venture a listing. Maybe Neil could give a little overall perspective. Project Breakdown (engineering only, management and support omitted): Amiga Chips, Design and Implementation - LG Amiga Chips, Fabrication and Testing - MOS Amiga Design and Prototypes - LG A1000 Production - CJL/Sanyo A1000 Multi-layer board - CJL (combined mainboard and tower) A1000 Cost Reduced - LG/CJL (too little, too late) Amiga Modem - WC Answer Mate - WC (rip) Genlock - WC/LG/WC/LG/WC... (it took a while) Amiga Live - A2/LG/WC (returned to A2) A1000 Zorro Expansion prototype - LG (copied by a few) Hard Disk Controller - WC (licensed to byte-by-byte) GargantuRam - LG (licensed to byte-by-byte) Software - LG + bodies from WC Sidecar - BSW A2000 (Los Gatos prototype) - LG A2500 (european A2000) - BSW Bridgecard - BSW Bridgecard chips - BSW/WC A2000 expansion cards - WC B2000 (US A2000) - WC A500 - WC Fat Agnus and other A500/A200 chips - WC/LG A500/A2000 Production - CETL/HK/WC/BSW [current non-released projects omitted] The following "important" projects were among the many that were canceled or never completed while the Amiga was kept going: C900 Commodore Unix PC - WC (prototypes done by BSW) Commodore LCD Portable - WC C128 Hard Drive - WC LG - Los Gatos, WC - West Chester, BSW - Braunschweig, MOS - MOS Technology, CETL - Commodore Taiwan, HK - Commodore Hong Kong, CJL - Commodore Japan I've probably ommitted a number of important items, but I think this shows the trend - Amiga creation and Design by Los Gatos; Production, Peripherals and followup products a world-wide Commodore commitment. -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: out to lunch... Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
higgin@cbmvax.UUCP (Paul Higginbottom SALES) (11/16/87)
in article <1051@sugar.UUCP>, peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) says: > > How about waiting for the Amiga 3000? I don't know about you, but I don't > think paying another $1000 for the same computer I already have as an > upgrade. They are not the same computer. The A1000 has an edge connector for expansion. The A2000 has 11 slots. The A1000 has 256K (or 512K w/A1050). The A2000 has 1M. The A1000 has disk loaded Kickstart. The A2000 has ROM'ed Kickstart 1.2. The A1000 has one internal drive and no room for additional drives internally. The A2000 has one internal drive, and room for two more (even more w/ hardcards). A1000 has a keyboard w/ limited numeric keypad and non-standard layout. A2000 has a keyboard w/ full numeric keypad and more universally acceptable layout. For what you want, the A2000 may not offer YOU anything more, but that is not to say it is the same machine as the A1000. > -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter > -- Disclaimer: These U aren't mere opinions... these are *values*. I don't completely agree with your disclaimer, unless you call them "*relative values*". :-) Paul.
whitcomb@ic.uucp (Gregg Whitcomb) (11/17/87)
In article <2791@cbmvax.UUCP> higgin@cbmvax.UUCP (Paul Higginbottom SALES) writes: >in article <1051@sugar.UUCP>, peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) says: >> >> How about waiting for the Amiga 3000? I don't know about you, but I don't >> think paying another $1000 for the same computer I already have as an >> upgrade. > >They are not the same computer. The A1000 has an edge connector for >expansion. The A2000 has 11 slots. The A1000 has 256K..... > >For what you want, the A2000 may not offer YOU anything more, but that >is not to say it is the same machine as the A1000. > >> -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter > > Paul. I suppose Peter's definition of "same computer" is one that runs the same software. If the A2000 had an MMU and ran Unix, then it would certainly be a "different" computer. When DEC came out with the VAX, they provided some crude PDP11 compatibility mode, but as far as I know, no upgrade. When DEC came out with the VAX 785, they certainly did have an upgrade available for the 780. But then, the 785 was "the same computer" as the 780 given your definition. Basically, it comes down to whether it is reasonable to expect a computer company to provide an upgrade path to a "different" computer. Personally, I don't think you can expect any company that wants to stay in business to provide such an upgrade (they would be like a lightbulb company which replaced your bulbs when they burnt out, or perhaps produced bulbs which never burnt out). What you want as an "upgrade" is certainly wishful thinking. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gregg Whitcomb USENET: ucbvax!ic!whitcomb ARPA: whitcomb@ic.berkeley.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (11/17/87)
In article <2756@cbmvax.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes:
<Mike, in case you didn't notice. The A2000 just happens to have an 86
<pin connector in it. It's cleverly described as either the MMU connector
<or the coprocessor slot. It just happens (who me?) to have the same
<pinout as the 86 pin as the A1000 expansion connecter, but of course in
<true West Chester fashion, the sex has been changed,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Why does this not surprise me?
<but this actually is
<a good thing, or at least the only reasonable solution.
Why is this a good thing? Or even the only reasonable solution? Looks
like yet more of the VIC-20/C64/C128 stuff I expect from CBM.
<Now this connector can be used just like the A1000 expansion connector,
<You might want to ask why this little coincidence came to be. First,
<it does give the technically sophisticated A1000 user a little bit of
<a temporary upgrade path, albeit messy and unsupported, but sooner or
So why hasn't it been mentioned sooner?
<Now I think I may have been the person who set you off on this prolonged
<tirade in the first place, when you came up with a perhaps justifiably
<paranoid interpretation of a comment I made.
Yes, you started it. Though Barry Shein also had something to do with
prolonging it.
<Now to work back around to my original comment, if you prefer the A1000, fine.
Right. From where I sit, the only advantage the "upgrade" has is being
able to go to more chip ram in the future - which may or may not be
doable on an A1000.
<If you like newer and in some ways better toys
Snicker.
<there's a special deal on, and now's a good time to take advantage of
<it, since I don't see it continuing much longer, nor a better deal coming
<along in a hurry.
Nah - 6 or 7 months should see the A2000 available via mail order for
the $1000-$1300 it's selling for now (with upgrade+buyback). It's
already selling for <$1600 *without* the buy back, and < $700 with.
<mike
--
I know the world is flat. Mike Meyer
Don't try tell me that it's round. mwm@berkeley.edu
I know the world stands still. ucbvax!mwm
Don't try to make it turn around. mwm@ucb to S to S rmwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (11/17/87)
In article <2759@cbmvax.UUCP> daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes:
<in article <5883@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) says:
<> Which, so I've been told, will have *yet another* bus. Maybe compatable
<> with Zorro ][, maybe not.
<
<The bus has NEVER changed, only the form-factor.
Except for a few minor lines, and the name. Or was I hallucinating
when I saw a claim that processor cards that worked in Zorro I
wouldn't work in Zorro ][.
<At least you can speak
<accurately, I know you're intelligent enough to perform such a feat.
You should take your own advice.
<And
<no one will have any reason to complain if we introduce a 32 bit buss that
<still runs 16 bit cards. Unless you can get your mindset convoluted enough
<to get angry about the fact that 32 bit cards would run faster than 16 bit
<cards, so we're "forcing" folks to upgrade to 32 bit.
Nope - a 32/16 bit bus would be doing it right, as opposed to the
Zorro I/Zorro ][ change. From what I've seen of the CBM people here,
I'm certain they can design such a thing - all it takes is a modicum
of intelligence. Whether CBM would actually *market* something like
that is another question entirely. But they might surprise me.
<> To quote a Go master: "If that's the best way you can live, then you
<> might as well drop dead."
<
<Which Go master? I'd rather hear from Zen masters, as what they say
<applies to any case.
If you really want to know which Go master, send mail. And Go, like
Zen, applies in almost any situation. Why do you think Japanese
corporations spend hundreds of dollars/hour to teach their top
executives how to play Go?
<But regardless of the validity of the application,
<such an appication can very easily be pointless. Such as the current
<case. If I don't survive this generation, I can't progress to the next
<one. This principal is also applicable to all cases, and is far older and
<more universal than anything Go masters or Zen masters have considered in
<the paultry several thousand years they've existed.
There are cases where *not* surviving to the next generation is better
than what has to happen to survive. I don't think that's what happened
here; I think CBM has found a path that would have been better not
taken.
<> All I did was describe the Zorro I -> Zorro ][
<> change. I carefully pointed out that the cards would work in either
<> bus, but if you put it in the wrong one, you'd have to run with the
<> cover off. Since these people normally deal with serious machines,
<> that was quite sufficient.
<
<NO! These people don't normally deal with serious machines. The large
<majority of the world as we know it doesn't deal with serious machines.
No, the people I spoke to *do* deal with serious machines. The large
majority of the population doesn't - they deal with toys. I thought
CBM was selling serious machines. I was mistaken.
<> You think I don't know this? Be careful not to confuse *acting*
<> irrational with *being* irrational. There are ratoinal reasons to act
<> irrationally.
<
<Let's not drag Ayn Rand into this...
I wasn't - I was draggin Norse mythology into it. Not the same thing
at all. Though Ayn Rand might well apply in this case.
<> I dunno - with luck, the next time around, you'll bloody well have an
<> upgrade path. If I've convinced even *one* person that this is a good
<> idea, then it was worth it.
<
<Naa. Maybe we'll be like Apple, and charge $800 for a 360K memory upgrade.
<Or be like everyone else, and offer no upgrade at all. AND DON'T START
<BRINGING UP MINICOMPUTERS AGAIN!
I won't - I'll point out that my previous system was a micro, was over
four years old, could use more memory than an Amiga, had options for
better graphics than the Amiga, and started out life as a z80 box. It also
still had hardware and software coming out for it, even though the
original manufacturer had switched from doing systems to doing
high-dollar color graphics terminals.
Minicomputer companies aren't the only ones who believe that computers
should be upgradeable - they're just the ones most mentioned on USENet.
<At $2000 for an Amiga, I've got no place EXPECTING an upgrade.
No, but you ought to be able to expect an upgrade *path* that's not as
hard on your hardware as changing computers completely. The two aren't
the same thing at all.
<mike
--
And then up spoke his own dear wife, Mike Meyer
Never heard to speak so free. mwm@berkeley.edu
"I'd rather a kiss from dead Matty's lips, ucbvax!mwm
Than you or your finery." mwm@ucbjade.BITNETmwm@eris.UUCP (11/17/87)
In article <1051@sugar.UUCP> peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
<How about waiting for the Amiga 3000? I don't know about you, but I don't
<think paying another $1000 for the same computer I already have as an
<upgrade.
While I agree with the sentiments, I can't agree with the statement.
It's *not* the same computer. They built it into an ugly IBM-PC shaped
box (complete with missing features) so that IBM cards would go into
it. They made the keyboard look more like an ISO ("an international
standard so *everyone* can hate it") keyboard, without quite going to
full ISO.
They also added one slot which will require a tower in an A1000, if
you can do it at all, and the ability to put in more chip memory
(which may be doable with a tower).
If it *were* the same computer, that'd be an improvement.
<mike
--
I'm gonna lasso you with my rubberband lazer, Mike Meyer
Pull you closer to me, and look right to the moon. mwm@berkeley.edu
Ride side by side when worlds collide, ucbvax!mwm
And slip into the Martian tide. mwm@ucbjade.BITNETmwm@eris.UUCP (11/17/87)
In article <1054@sugar.UUCP> peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
<I know about OS/9. Now then, what was the first machine that supported OS/9
<for the home computer market. Not the personal computer market or the
<business computer market, but the home computer market. That means: a
<home computer (one that costs much less than a small car) with a 6809
<or a 68000, and a manufacturer willing to support it. The Radio Shack Color
<Computer is all I can think of.
Smoke Signal Broadcasting, among others. There were various people
pushing SS-50 boxes that ran OS/9 in the $1000-$2000 range.
<> Yeah, I'm talking about the CoCo. It may be a dead puppy, but people
<> are still starting new hardware expansion products for it.
<
<Like what?
1 Megabyte memory cards. Detachable keyboards. Frank Hoggs Labs even
got back into the CoCo market after the III came out, to market a hard
disk subsystem for it.
<Any decent Amiga 2000 peripherals will fit in a Zorro box.
Odd - most of them don't fit in mine in any reasonable way. But you
mean Zorro ][, don't you? Oh well.
<The Amiga 2000 is 100% software compatible with the 500 and 2000. 100%.
<Remember that number.
CBM didn't promise 100% software compatability. They didn't deliver
it. I know of products that suffer from the SLOW/FAST ram in the
boxes. Still run, but not nearly as nicely.
<> In fact, the new one can have more memory than the A500 comes with,
<> and has an MMU.
<
<But it doesn't come with more memory, does it? You can't put 9.5 megabytes
<of RAM on it, no? And you can't address all that memory directly. That
<wipes it out for me. If I wanted to fiddle with mapped memory I'd get an
<IBM-PC. The hardware's cheaper.
Correct, and correct again. I didn't claim those were true things.
And you're wrong about the hardware being cheaper. Minimum for a
starting IBM-PC is about $400. Minimum for a CoCo is less than $200.
Finally, why do you keep asking for VM and memory protection (with
their implied mapping) if you don't want mapped memory? OS/9-6809 does
it right - each process gets most of the 6809 address space all it's
own, other processes and the OS are protected from it, and that space
looks flat to the user. It looks much more like a PDP-11 than an
8088. But I suspect you know that.
<mike
--
Take a magic carpet to the olden days Mike Meyer
To a mythical land where everybody lays mwm@berkeley.edu
Around in the clouds in a happy daze ucbvax!mwm
In Kizmiaz ... Kizmiaz mwm@ucbjade.BITNETpeter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (11/20/87)
Paul Higginbottom writes: > I said: > > How about waiting for the Amiga 3000? I don't know about you, but I don't > > think paying another $1000 for the same computer I already have as an > > upgrade. > They are not the same computer. A matter of opinion. > ... list of differences between the A1000 and A2000 ... There are options available that allow me to add anything available on the A2000 to the A1000. Except for two options you didn't even list: the video slot and the potential of 1M of CHIP RAM. When you get something to support these, I'll look again. > For what you want, the A2000 may not offer YOU anything more, but that > is not to say it is the same machine as the A1000. It's no more different than the 1987 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe is from the 1986 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe. It's an improved version of the same machine. It's completely compatible. Given the sort of stuff you've been getting lately, shouldn't you appreciate even a backhanded compliment? > > -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter > > -- Disclaimer: These U aren't mere opinions... these are *values*. > I don't completely agree with your disclaimer, unless you call them > "*relative values*". :-) Nope. They're absolute. My values are impeccable. -- -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter -- Disclaimer: These U aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.
peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (11/21/87)
> <The Amiga 2000 is 100% software compatible with the 500 and 2000. 100%. > <Remember that number. > CBM didn't promise 100% software compatability. They didn't deliver > it. I know of products that suffer from the SLOW/FAST ram in the > boxes. Still run, but not nearly as nicely. Any products that do not run with more than 512K, or with RAM in unexpected places, were broken on the A1000 already. Because the A1000 also supports both of these things. > <If I wanted to fiddle with mapped memory I'd get an > <IBM-PC. The hardware's cheaper. > And you're wrong about the hardware being cheaper. Minimum for a > starting IBM-PC is about $400. Minimum for a CoCo is less than $200. I mean *expansion* hardware. And I misspoke. What I wanted to say was: If I wanted to fiddle with bank-selected memory I'd get an IBM-PC. All these people who can't keep mapped memory, protected memory, and virtual memory straight have got to me. Speaking of which: > Finally, why do you keep asking for VM and memory protection (with > their implied mapping) if you don't want mapped memory? I'm the guy standing on the sidelines saying "Virtual Memory means Virtual Performance". Not the guy saying "I want VM" or "I want raw memory". I want an MMU that will keep my tasks out of each other's hair. I don't want VM. > [the 6809] looks much more like a PDP-11 than an > 8088. But I suspect you know that. It's like a PDP-11 with half the available memory per task... and the PDP was too small, really. I love the PDP, and I wish IBM had chosen the 6809 over the 8088. If you're going to use bank selecting, at least be honest about it. But given the choice of a 68000 or a 6809, I know where my priorities lie. > -- -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter -- Disclaimer: These U aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.