walton@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (04/28/87)
I just saw an advertisement for the Leading Edge PClone equipped with what they call "Infinite Memory." This is a built-in 20 MB Bernoulli disk drive. List price for the system complete with this drive and two cartridges is $1999; the cartridges list for $49.95 each and are about the size of a 5-1/4" floppy (but thicker). C Ltd. is charging $1600 for their 50 MB hard disk and controller. Personally, I'd rather have one or two of these Bernoulli items. They would also be ideal for backups of really large disks (100 MB plus), since unlike a tape drive the Bernoulli boxes are useful in their own right. Anyone know who makes the hardware? Is it SCSI? Steve Walton walton@tybalt.caltech.edu "Long .signature files are frowned upon"--from netiquette docs
mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (04/29/87)
In article <2503@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> walton@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (Steve Walton) writes: >I just saw an advertisement for the Leading Edge PClone equipped with >what they call "Infinite Memory." This is a built-in 20 MB Bernoulli >disk drive. List price for the system complete with this drive and >two cartridges is $1999; the cartridges list for $49.95 each and are >about the size of a 5-1/4" floppy (but thicker). > C Ltd. is charging $1600 for their 50 MB hard disk and controller. >Personally, I'd rather have one or two of these Bernoulli items. They >would also be ideal for backups of really large disks (100 MB plus), >since unlike a tape drive the Bernoulli boxes are useful in their own >right. Anyone know who makes the hardware? Is it SCSI? I can't seem to trim much off of this, without major hackery at the text. Not going to bother, and hope that inews is nice to me. I saw that leading edge box. The perfect disk subsystem flashed before my eyes - an over-the-amiga Zorro expansion with a full-height 5 1/4" disk cutout in it. Put one 20Meg HD + one 20Meg bernoulli box in that, each half-height. Heaven. And _expensive_. The Bernoulli boxes are made by IOMega. You can get them in either ST-506 or SCSI. The retail on a 5 1/4" half-height drive (what's in the Leading Edge clone), without enclosure or power supply, is $3000. That's right, $1000 more than the Leading Edge box. So a dream goes down the pipe. Possibly a group could arrange to get many of them at a better price. Better yet, a manufacturer could start offering them, thus getting an OEMs price for them. I know that RS Data is going to investigate it, since I mentioned it to them. Perry, any chance of ASDG picking up something like that? Me, I'm going to buy a small SCSI system, and save my pennies towards one a Bernoulli box. Maybe by the time I can afford one, they'll have fallen to something resaonable. BTW, anyone interested in an IBM PC clone (Leading Edge) with an empty bernoulli box slot? :-) <mike -- Take a magic carpet to the olden days Mike Meyer To a mythical land where everybody lays ucbvax!mwm Around in the clouds in a happy daze mwm@berkeley.edu In Kizmiaz ... Kizmiaz mwm@ucbjade.BITNET
walton@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (04/29/87)
In article <3372@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: >In article <2503@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> walton@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP >(Steve Walton) writes: >>I just saw an advertisement for the Leading Edge PClone equipped with >>... a built-in 20 MB Bernoulli disk drive. List price for the system >>two cartridges is $1999; the cartridges list for $49.95 ... > >The Bernoulli boxes are made by IOMega. You can get them in either >ST-506 or SCSI. The retail on a 5 1/4" half-height drive (what's in >the Leading Edge clone), without enclosure or power supply, is $3000. >That's right, $1000 more than the Leading Edge box. So a dream goes >down the pipe. A hardware person here at AMETEK tells me that, in fact, the $3000 price is for a complete stand-alone system with an interface to RS-232 (!). Price for the raw drive (no controller, he didn't know what, if any interface) is closer to $1500 in quantity 1. "To dream the possible dream..." >Me, I'm going to buy a small SCSI system, and save my pennies towards >one a Bernoulli box. Maybe by the time I can afford one, they'll have >fallen to something resaonable. I'm inclined the same way, but this same hardware person comments that he would prefer an Alpha (?) VCR tape backup to a Bernoulli box. 300 MB on a standard videotape, and you can watch Tom Petty with it as well. He saw a users' group TV show in the midwest where they broadcast software over the air using one of these boxes. You just recorded a few seconds of video and then hooked your VCR to your PC. Bandwidth is 1 MB/s. Steve Walton, guest on tybalt.caltech.edu but really ametek!walton@csvax.caltech.edu or WALTON@AMETEK.BITNET
slc@hoptoad.UUCP (04/29/87)
In article <3372@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: >I saw that leading edge box. The perfect disk subsystem flashed before >my eyes - an over-the-amiga Zorro expansion with a full-height 5 1/4" >disk cutout in it. Put one 20Meg HD + one 20Meg bernoulli box in that, >each half-height. Heaven. And _expensive_. Why bother with the conventional HD? Use two Bernoullis. (as for expense, read on). >The Bernoulli boxes are made by IOMega. You can get them in either >ST-506 or SCSI. The retail on a 5 1/4" half-height drive (what's in >the Leading Edge clone), without enclosure or power supply, is $3000. >That's right, $1000 more than the Leading Edge box. So a dream goes >down the pipe. Actual retail Prices on the Bernoulli Boxes are MUCH lower than list prices. Also, that price is for TWO drives, not one! (although I assume that Leading Edge machine has only one, which is probably why the total price is low). Opening the March issue of Byte Magazine, I quickly found an ad with the following prices: 10 + 10 Meg. $1595 (these are external boxes with 20 + 20 Meg. $2095 TWO 10M or 20M drives) Of course, you would have to add the price of an Amiga controller card onto this. >Possibly a group could arrange to get many of them at a better price. >Better yet, a manufacturer could start offering them, thus getting an >OEMs price for them. I know that RS Data is going to investigate it, >since I mentioned it to them. Perry, any chance of ASDG picking up >something like that? Great ideas!!!!!!!!!!! If I had confidence that I could run a Bernoulli Box on my Amiga, I would buy one immediately. I haven't the slightest idea how difficult it would be to write a driver for it. Think of these advantages: Speed of conventional hard disks Much more durable (I've lost 2 conventional HD's on my IBM PC) Infinite virtual storage Instant backup I'm flogging this idea, because I hope someone will see the same advantages I do, and make it possible. My need for mass storage on my Amiga is becoming critical but I DO NOT WANT TO BUY A CONVENTIONAL HARD DISK!
mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) (04/30/87)
In article <2070@hoptoad.uucp> slc@hoptoad.UUCP (Steve Costa) writes: >Actual retail Prices on the Bernoulli Boxes are MUCH lower than list >prices. Also, that price is for TWO drives, not one! (although I assume >that Leading Edge machine has only one, which is probably why the total >price is low). Opening the March issue of Byte Magazine, I quickly found an >ad with the following prices: > > 10 + 10 Meg. $1595 (these are external boxes with > 20 + 20 Meg. $2095 TWO 10M or 20M drives) Those are undoubtedly the 8" versions. I wondered back into the store today, and was told "we can get you the 5 1/4 20Meg system for $1300." Steve Walton says (in a different article) that he expects them to be around $1500 on the street, though the $3000 retail is right. I was kinda shocked myself, too. I was also told that the price on these creatures will fall over the next couple of months. Dealers are having troubles getting more than one or two of the Leading Edge systems a month, because of those drives. So it's a suppliers market for now. That someone else is starting production on the creatures will help. >If I had confidence that I could run a Bernoulli Box on my Amiga, I would >buy one immediately. I haven't the slightest idea how difficult it would >be to write a driver for it. You ought to be able to take an scsi controller/driver system (Xebec, say, as that's what sitting next to this system), + a bernoulli that speaks scsi, and tweak the mountlist/parameters/whatever file. It shouldn't require writing a driver. But check with whoever you buy it from. >Think of these advantages: > > Speed of conventional hard disks Not quite. It seems that this used to be true, but bernoulli technology hasn't kept up with winchester technology. >I'm flogging this idea, because I hope someone will see the same advantages I >do, and make it possible. My need for mass storage on my Amiga is becoming >critical but I DO NOT WANT TO BUY A CONVENTIONAL HARD DISK! It's gotten bad enough that I can't handle it anymore. I've tweaked mg so I can maintain multiple versions without pain, only to find that the .o files for more than one version don't fit on a disk with sources anymore. And the mg distribution disk had to go to compressed files to get all the sources on. Yuch. Likewise, I'm tired of seeing what I can trim off of my workbench disk to put a new tool on it. I think things have gone more than critical, and I don't have any real objection to a conventional disk any more. I'll probably have bought a disk by the end of the week. In other words, I can't _stand_ not having mass storage anymore. I'll live with the problems of the conventional drive. If the prices on the bernoullis falls fast enough, I'll regret it later. If they stay high, I'll have won. But I hope they go down; especially enough so I can junk the <whatever> and replace it with a pair of bernoullis. <mike -- Take a magic carpet to the olden days Mike Meyer To a mythical land where everybody lays ucbvax!mwm Around in the clouds in a happy daze mwm@berkeley.edu In Kizmiaz ... Kizmiaz mwm@ucbjade.BITNET
yuan@uhccux.UUCP (Yuan Chang) (04/30/87)
(Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: >I saw that leading edge box. The perfect disk subsystem flashed before >my eyes - an over-the-amiga Zorro expansion with a full-height 5 1/4" >disk cutout in it. Put one 20Meg HD + one 20Meg bernoulli box in that, >each half-height. Heaven. And _expensive_. I believe that the 5-1/4" Bernoulli cartridges are only 10Megs. 20Meg modem should be a whopping 8". Your Amiga would look like one of those (ancient?) S-100 boxes with one of those 8" suckers 8-). Of course, I could be wrong (and then your Amiga would look like, well, Amiga!). -- UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,ucbvax,dcdwest}!sdcsvax!nosc!uhccux!yuan ARPA: uhccux!yuan@nosc.ARPA INTERNET: yuan@UHCC.HAWAII.EDU AT&T: (808) 395-1732 "I'm an Amigoid, she's an Amigoid, they're Amigoids, - Yuan Chang - Wouldn't _y_o_u like to be an Amigoid too?"
page@ulowell.cs.ulowell.edu (Bob Page) (04/30/87)
Steve Costa writes: >If I had confidence that I could run a Bernoulli Box on my Amiga, I would >buy one immediately. Mike Meyer replies: >You ought to be able to take an scsi controller/driver system ... >and tweak the mountlist/parameters/whatever file. As I previously reported, a friend (who has the CLtd SCSI controller and a Bernoulli box) CAN'T get them to work together. CLtd claims once you get the cartridge formatted the way the drive wants, you can use the FORMAT utility to format it for AmigaDOS. So how do you get it formatted "the way the drive wants"? First thought would be to use the SCSIFORMAT utility that CLtd gives you with the controller. That doesn't work. Second thought (from CLtd) is to format the cartridge on a PC, then move it to the Amiga. Well, that didn't seem to work either, athough CLtd claims others have done it. Even if it did work, I'm not going out to buy a PC just to format my Bernoulli cartridges! It should be easy enough to write a BBFORMAT program, if we know what its supposed to do. Mike again: >I can't _stand_ not having mass storage anymore. I have a 20M winny, but a bernoulli box would certainly be a better solution. The best solution would be Bernoulli box + NFS. Yeah! ..Bob -- Bob Page, U of Lowell CS Dept. page@ulowell.{uucp,edu,csnet}
ewhac@well.UUCP (04/30/87)
In article <3387@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: >You ought to be able to take an scsi controller/driver system (Xebec, >say, as that's what sitting next to this system), + a bernoulli that >speaks scsi, and tweak the mountlist/parameters/whatever file. It >shouldn't require writing a driver. But check with whoever you buy it >from. > I think you will have to write some sort of driver for it. Unlike conventional hard disks, Bernoullis can be unmounted. Unless a standard SCSI driver takes this into account and does The Right Thing, you'll either have to write your own driver (which is probably a good idea in any case) to generate a DISKCHANGED signal, or use the 'DiskChange' command every time you change volumes (yuck!). Other than that, I'd love to have a Bernoulli box plugged into my Amiga. I could keep the entire Fish library on just a few "packs." I could keep all my weird hacks on one disk (currently, they're spread over three floppies, and I can't remember what's on what)..... I'm waiting, IOmega..... _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ ________ ___ Leo L. Schwab \ /___--__ The Guy in The Cape ___ ___ /\ ---##\ ihnp4!ptsfa!well!ewhac / X \_____ | __ _---)) ..or.. / /_\-- -----+==____\ // \ _ well ---\ ___ ( o---+------------------O/ \/ \ dual ----> !unicom!ewhac \ / ___ \_ (`o ) hplabs -/ ("AE-wack") ____ \___/ \_/ Recumbent Bikes: "Work FOR? I don't work FOR The _O_n_l_y Way To Fly! anybody! I'm just having fun."
mwm@eris.UUCP (05/01/87)
In article <458@uhccux.UUCP> yuan@uhccux.UUCP (Yuan Chang) writes:
< I believe that the 5-1/4" Bernoulli cartridges are only 10Megs. 20Meg
<modem should be a whopping 8". Your Amiga would look like one of those
<(ancient?) S-100 boxes with one of those 8" suckers 8-). Of course, I
<could be wrong (and then your Amiga would look like, well, Amiga!).
If this 5-1/4" box is only 10Meg, it's mislabeled. The lable says "20
Meg Infinite Memory Disk" or words to that affect.
And _please_ don't call those S-100 boxes ancient. You're making me
feel old(er)....
<mike
--
Take a magic carpet to the olden days Mike Meyer
To a mythical land where everybody lays ucbvax!mwm
Around in the clouds in a happy daze mwm@berkeley.edu
In Kizmiaz ... Kizmiaz mwm@ucbjade.BITNETslc@hoptoad.UUCP (05/01/87)
In article <2969@well.UUCP> ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes: -In article <3387@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer) writes: --You ought to be able to take an scsi controller/driver system (Xebec, --say, as that's what sitting next to this system), + a bernoulli that --speaks scsi, and tweak the mountlist/parameters/whatever file. It --shouldn't require writing a driver. But check with whoever you buy it --from. -- - I think you will have to write some sort of driver for it. Unlike -conventional hard disks, Bernoullis can be unmounted. Unless a standard -........... - I'm waiting, IOmega..... - It's unlikely that IOmeg will do anything specifically for the Amiga market unless there's evidence of significant demand. IOmega has already made all the necessary hardware, and SCSI controllers are available for the Amiga. What's needed is someone in the Amiga community to write a driver. I'm not up to it... (not you either, Leo, :-) after "robotroff" I'd be afraid of the unexpected tricks you might throw into the driver :-) )
tenney@well.UUCP (05/01/87)
I just purchased an ST225 (20 meg 5.25" 1/2 height) for under $300 (with
cables) at Fry's in Sunnyvale. Ok, it's not free, but it's virtually
disposable. If it wears out in 12-24 months, I'll replace it gladly,
and likely at a lower price (or more space). I think $1300 for a 20meg
system is hard to tolerate.
Take an under $300 drive (retail), add a controller card and place into
an A2000 --- much more reasonable, even if it is 60ms seek time.
-- Glenn Tenney
UUCP: {hplabs,glacier,lll-crg,ihnp4!ptsfa}!well!tenney
ARPA: well!tenney@LLL-CRG.ARPA Delphi and MCI Mail: TENNEY
As Alphonso Bodoya would say... (tnx boulton)
Disclaimers? DISCLAIMERS!? I don' gotta show you no stinking DISCLAIMERS!papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) (11/21/87)
References: I received a message indicating that the prices for the hard disks that are sold with the "WEDGE" are in CANADIAN DOLLARS. I did not see anything indicating that in the original message, so I flamed :-). If it is indeed the case that the prices are in canadian dollars, then they approach the ones from CMO (Computer Mail Order). On the other hand, I just found much better prices in the latest PC Week, that I bought a disk. I got 40 MB Seagate ST-251 39ms for $389 + $5 shipping (no CC surcharges) from Soft Warehouse at 1-800-451-SOFT. They are located at: Soft Warehouse 15160 Marsh Lane Dallas, TX 75244 The also have the following: 20 MB Seagate ST-225 $269 (includes thow away PC controller) 30 MB Seagate ST-238 $289 (same as above, but you get 10 MB for $20!!) 40 MB Miniscribe 3650 $375 (with PC controller) 70 MB Miniscribe $799 (no controller, not listed as 1/2 height) If you don't want the controller, you might get a few dollars off the above prices too, but don't quote me on that :-) As usual, I have no connection with Soft Warehouse, except that I shelled my money with them. -- Marco Papa Felsina Software
mph@rover.UUCP (Mark Huth) (12/01/87)
In article <5322@oberon.USC.EDU> papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) writes: >30 MB Seagate ST-238 $289 (same as above, but you get 10 MB for $20!!) Careful using the ST-238 - it is a ST-225 certified for use with a RLL controller. The extra 10 MBs require that your controller can use the RLL encoding. Many ST506 controllers cannot. Mark Huth
papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) (12/02/87)
About the possible fact that the Seagate ST238 is an RLL drive, I thought that Seagate used the following conventions: - No letter appended to drive designation means ST412 drive using MFM encoding (supported by the A2090) - letter "R" appended, means ST412 using RLL encoding (NOT supported by the A2090) - letter "L" appended, means SCSI drive (supported by A2090) So for example, there is an ST251, an ST251R, and an ST251N. Please correct me if I am wrong. -- Marco Papa
dragon@oliveb.UUCP (Give me a quarter or I'll touch you) (12/02/87)
in article <5489@oberon.USC.EDU>, papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) says: > > About the possible fact that the Seagate ST238 is an RLL drive, I thought > that Seagate used the following conventions: > > - No letter appended to drive designation means ST412 drive using MFM encoding > (supported by the A2090) > - letter "R" appended, means ST412 using RLL encoding (NOT supported by > the A2090) > - letter "L" appended, means SCSI drive (supported by A2090) > > So for example, there is an ST251, an ST251R, and an ST251N. Please correct > me if I am wrong. > > -- Marco Papa Seagate's ST238 is an RLL drive. From the Seagate documentation: "Only drives with an 'R' appended to the product number are designed and certified for use with a Run Length Limited (RLL 2,7) controller. Note: early ST238 RLL drives did not have the 'R' suffix." The letter 'N' appended means a SCSI drive, not 'L' (but the example was correct). Just as a side note, many of the SCSI interface drives use RLL encoding, but this is transparent to the SCSI interface. -- Dean Brunette {ucbvax,etc.}!hplabs!oliveb!olivej!dragon {ucbvax,etc.}!hplabs!oliveb!dragon-oatc!dean Olivetti Advanced Technology Center _____ _____ __|__ _____ 20300 Stevens Creek Blvd. | | _____| | | Cupertino, CA 95014 |_____| |_____| |__ |_____ 'Such a strange girl, I think I'm falling in love' --The Cure