trb@stag.UUCP ( Todd Burkey ) (12/08/87)
In article <2094@crash.cts.com> ford@crash.CTS.COM (Michael Ditto) writes: >In article <4567@pyr.gatech.EDU> gt4785b@pyr.UUCP (David Carter) writes: >>b) many people will never use >>their Amigas for MIDI, so it would have been wasted money. > >The Atarioids are always saying that the Amiga costs too much, >but are so proud of their built-in MIDI port that increased the cost of >their system and will probably never be used. > > [some guesswork in midi usage] > On another tack...First, I doubt the cost of adding midi to the ST is more than $2.00 or so in parts to Atari. Second, there are more uses of midi ports than using them as connections to musical instruments. I do happen to have a Casio keyboard attached to mine (nice since more and more games coming out automatically play music TO the midi port just in case a keyboard is attached...as well as through the normal speakers.) And about 20% of the people I know have keyboards (I am not musical at all, so that isn't the reason). In any case, I would say that there are two other very good uses for midi on the ST right now. One is as a cheap LAN (which is available from several companies already on the ST, not sure about on the Amiga), and also for things like MIDIMAZE (which, if it ever comes out on the Amiga will probably sell more midi adapters than midi keyboards will). The Midimaze craze, if you haven't heard, is where you get up to 15 other people to haul their ST's over to your house, string midi cables from room to room connecting all the machines, and then waste an entire afternoon (and evening) wearing out your palms and firing button fingers (and lungs) wandering through mazes shooting at other players. I think 8 of us were enough to alienate my wife the last time we played (YES, I ADMIT IT, I PLAY GAMES ON MY ATARI! Why not?) Also, all this arguments over which computer is better is kind of silly. I had an Amiga for a while (and still have a Mac and an IBM PClone), and it was/is a nice machine. The Amiga was about 6 months behind the ST on certain features that I found useful (Compilers, utilities, etc) and was ahead of the ST in other areas (HAM pictures, psuedo multitasking, sound applications). For some reason, I just found programming on the ST more straightforward (I had problems on the Mac as well.) It was probably just my background and my desire to be able to move things back and forth between Unix that made it hard. Time will tell. -Todd Burkey trb@stag.UUCP or ...ihnp4!meccts!stag!trb
harald@ccicpg.UUCP ( Harald Milne) (12/10/87)
In article <275@stag.UUCP>, trb@stag.UUCP ( Todd Burkey ) writes: > On another tack...First, I doubt the cost of adding midi to the ST is > more than $2.00 or so in parts to Atari. Second, there are more uses > of midi ports than using them as connections to musical instruments. I > do happen to have a Casio keyboard attached to mine (nice since more > and more games coming out automatically play music TO the midi port just in > case a keyboard is attached...as well as through the normal speakers.) Sound through the MIDI for games would not be done if the ATARI had any sound channels worth talking about. Gee, all of a sudden that $2 MIDI interface costs as much as a Casio! Were talking dirt cheap here. > And about 20% of the people I know have keyboards And 50% of the people I hang around with smoke dope with the pope. > The Midimaze craze, if you haven't heard, > is where you get up to 15 other people to haul their ST's over to your > house, Well thats really stupid. The UNIX original is called HUNT. The limit is 3 persons per machine connected via Ethernet. The game becomes more of what unloaded machine your on. Dragging 15 computers into one locality sounds really stupid. Whats the % of people are doing that, .00000000001? > Also, all this arguments over which computer is better is kind of > silly. You got one point straight. With the Amiga and the Atari costing the same amount for the least common denominator, the Atari is just silly, and a waste of money. But we all know that. > I had an Amiga for a while (and still have a Mac and an IBM > PClone), and it was/is a nice machine. The Amiga was about 6 months behind > the ST on certain features that I found useful (Compilers, utilities, > etc) and was ahead of the ST in other areas (HAM pictures, psuedo > multitasking, sound applications). Great. Jack of all trades, a master of none. I can write utilities in my sleep. The Amiga wasn't behind anything, just Atari's attempt to kill what Atari knew was comming to market. Atari had the Amiga almost, but it slipped through their fingers, being bought by Commodore. What I can't write is hardware. I guess Atari can't either. Got a blitter? Looks like Atari is learning what a silicon foundry is all about. Not to mention yield factors. Psuedo multitasking is a specialty of Apple, in the form of the Multifinder, I suggest you move on to comp.sys.mac to talk about this nonsense. Psuedo not spoken here. Speaking of multitasking, name ONE Atari anything that runs on ANY Atari multitasking environments currently in progress. Just one. > For some reason, I just found programming on the ST more straightforward I would too if the machine and OS did nothing. I always wanted ZERO colors in high resolution mode. Oh wait, thats black and white, right? > It was probably just my background and my desire to be able > to move things back and forth between Unix that made it hard. So why on earth do you have an Atari? > -Todd Burkey > trb@stag.UUCP > or ...ihnp4!meccts!stag!trb -- Work: Computer Consoles Inc. (CCI), Advanced Development Group (ADG) Irvine, CA (RISCy business! Home of the CCI POWER 6/32) UUCP: uunet!ccicpg!harald
ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) (12/11/87)
In article <275@stag.UUCP> trb@stag.UUCP ( Todd Burkey ) writes: >In any case, I would say that there >are two other very good uses for midi on the ST right now. One is as >a cheap LAN (which is available from several companies already on the >ST, not sure about on the Amiga), and also for things like MIDIMAZE >(which, if it ever comes out on the Amiga will probably sell more midi >adapters than midi keyboards will). The Midimaze craze, if you haven't heard, >is where you get up to 15 other people to haul their ST's over to your >house, string midi cables from room to room connecting all the >machines, and then waste an entire afternoon (and evening) wearing out >your palms and firing button fingers (and lungs) wandering through >mazes shooting at other players. [ ... ] Our local software store has five Ataris set up to play MidiMaze. Since I've wanted MazeWar on the Amiga ever since I first saw it, I investigated the MidiMaze setup. The cabling between the systems seems to indicate a ring network. Packets are passed on to the next machine. It occurrs to me that all you need for a ring network is an input port and an output port, and software to interpret the data coming in. Sounds like all you need for this is a vanilla serial port. Am I wrong about this? P.S: MazeWar is Yet Another game I'd like to work on...... _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape ihnp4!ptsfa -\ \_ -_ Recumbent Bikes: dual ---> !{well,unicom}!ewhac O----^o The Only Way To Fly. hplabs / (pronounced "AE-wack") "Work FOR? I don't work FOR anybody! I'm just having fun." -- The Doctor
dragon@oliveb.UUCP (Give me a quarter or I'll touch you) (12/12/87)
in article <4694@well.UUCP>, ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) says: > Xref: oliveb comp.sys.amiga:12031 comp.sys.atari.st:6608 > > Sounds like all you need for this is a vanilla serial port. Am I > wrong about this? > > P.S: MazeWar is Yet Another game I'd like to work on...... A vanilla serial port is all that would be needed. Special cabling would be required, though. But if you stuck a midi interface on any serial port that could accept one, it would be pretty much the same. The advantage to a serial port would be a higher speed possible, though, say, 115K baud. > _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ > Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape ihnp4!ptsfa -\ [the .sig didn't look right in a followup, and we've all seen it before anyhow :-)] -- Dean Brunette {ucbvax,etc.}!hplabs!oliveb!olivej!dragon {ucbvax,etc.}!hplabs!oliveb!dragon-oatc!dean Olivetti Advanced Technology Center _____ _____ __|__ _____ 20300 Stevens Creek Blvd. | | _____| | | Cupertino, CA 95014 |_____| |_____| |__ |_____ 'Such a strange girl, I think I'm falling in love' --The Cure
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (12/12/87)
In article <10620@oliveb.UUCP> dragon@oliveb.UUCP writes: >> Sounds like all you need for this is a vanilla serial port. Am I >> wrong about this? > > ..But if you stuck a midi interface on any serial port >that could accept one, it would be pretty much the same. The advantage to >a serial port would be a higher speed possible, though, say, 115K baud. First off, if you are using the Amiga serial port there would not be any reason to stick to MIDI data rates for your network, the medium (MIDI current loop) could conceivably support data rates above 100K bauds. The advantage to using MIDI ports is that the cables are a) Easy to find/build and b) useful for something other than playing Mazewars. Now I realize that the Atari folks don't care about the above because they already have a MIDI port, however let me ask this. Has anyone considered putting a MIDI adapter on the ST serial port and then running the 'network' in the other direction? Then you could have a counter rotating ring network that would make each host no more than 8 hops away. Just pick the appropriate direction with : DIRECTION = ((dstnode - srcnode) & 0x8) ? DOWNSTREAM : UPSTREAM ; This could give added performance to time critical games. --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
trb@stag.UUCP ( Todd Burkey ) (12/13/87)
In article <6946@ccicpg.UUCP> harald@ccicpg.UUCP ( Harald Milne) writes: > [a bunch of ASSinine tripe about why HE is right and everyone else > stupid...unless they like Amiga...] Great technical discussion there, Harald...Glad to hear that all your friends smoke dope...am sure they are pleased :-). Just so people don't get the wrong idea about MIDI-MAZE (rumor is that it will be out for Amiga). I do happen to have hunt on my Unix Box here (Symmetrics 375) and it isn't anything like midi-maze. If you want to go back in your source archives a year or so, you will see a program called MAZEWAR (early PARC days). I know it has been upgraded to run on Xwindows and it is more like Midi-maze (graphics, real perspective, etc). But even mazewar doesn't come close to midi-maze. Course, even amiga people will have to haul their computers over to friends houses. Explain to me how you can hook three graphics terminals up to your Amiga and Ethernet with all your friends??? I can only hook one extra terminal up to my ST (my Wyse while in the Multi-tasking C-Shell), but that is really only useful for editting and compiling...I can't hook other graphics tubes up (and doubt I would ever care to). I wasn't ever able to get my Wyse working as a terminal on the Amiga. -Todd Burkey trb@stag.UUCP
trb@stag.UUCP ( Todd Burkey ) (12/13/87)
In article <4694@well.UUCP> ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes: >Packets are passed on to the next machine. It occurrs to me that all you >need for a ring network is an input port and an output port, and software to >interpret the data coming in. > > Sounds like all you need for this is a vanilla serial port. Am I >wrong about this? Nope, that is all you really need (and all that the midi port is for that matter...Think midi runs at around 32K Baud. On the ST it was used more 'because it was there'. Of course, in a ring LAN like this, you are always affected when one of the machines gets turned off or pulls out of the ring for some reason... > >P.S: MazeWar is Yet Another game I'd like to work on...... Yes, I was looking at the source for that the other day (Xwindow vers.), it wouldn't be too hard. I'm planning on proposing it as a group project at our next ST developers meeting here in the Twin Cities. Would be a nice winter project (plus gives us another reason to haul our computers around). Does anyone know if it has been ported to the AMIGA or IBM PC? -Todd Burkey trb@stag.UUCP
wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) (12/14/87)
I'm not cross-posting this to the Atari Group since they seem to have an unprecedented ability to send my mailbox into a core meltdown. 1. Can the ST's serail port hack high baud rates? Since the MIDI specification is 32.5K buad, that makes it attractive if the RS232 serial port is limited to 9600. The Amiga serial port can operate atastronomical baud rates to something over 200K baud. Never mind that there ain't no way software is going to keep up with that and that you'd have to keep cabling pretty short. 2. Midi cables [if you look around] are cheaper than RS232 cables. 3. Midi cables are Unisex, thus making them less error prone to attach. Good to keep things simple for the game-oriented crowd. [applies equally to Amiga and ST] :-) 4. Marketing appeal. Using the Midi port differentiates the product from the rest of the crowd, even if use of the Midi opposed to something else isn't significant. This dsicussion is eveidence of that. --Bill
trb@stag.UUCP ( Todd Burkey ) (12/14/87)
In article <36294@sun.uucp> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: > >Now I realize that the Atari folks don't care about the above because >they already have a MIDI port, however let me ask this. Has anyone >considered putting a MIDI adapter on the ST serial port and then >running the 'network' in the other direction? Then you could have >a counter rotating ring network that would make each host no more >than 8 hops away. Just pick the appropriate direction with : > >DIRECTION = ((dstnode - srcnode) & 0x8) ? DOWNSTREAM : UPSTREAM ; Actually, I was hoping that we would use the RS232 port as a 'bridge' on the network...i.e. via modem to another 'ring' of computers. I admit it would be a slow bridge, but 2400 baud still could get a fair amount of packet info across for games, mail, etc. (works for USENET :-) ). I've still got the source for combat somewhere around (very early version written in Basic, but with Gorns and the whole bit...anyone remember back to those 110 Baud tactical shootout days?) -Todd Burkey trb@stag.UUCP
dag@chinet.UUCP (Daniel A. Glasser) (12/15/87)
In article <6946@ccicpg.UUCP> harald@ccicpg.UUCP ( Harald Milne) writes: > > Sound through the MIDI for games would not be done if the ATARI had any >sound channels worth talking about. Gee, all of a sudden that $2 MIDI interface >costs as much as a Casio! Were talking dirt cheap here. > Back before they dropped it, the ATARI ST was going to have both MIDI and a rahter nice sound chip which by all accounts would have beaten the pants off the AMI's sound chip. > > Well thats really stupid. The UNIX original is called HUNT. The limit >is 3 persons per machine connected via Ethernet. The game becomes more of >what unloaded machine your on. Dragging 15 computers into one locality sounds >really stupid. Whats the % of people are doing that, .00000000001? > I first saw it back long before ethernet and UNIX were readily connected, and it was called "mazewars", and it was running on Xerox Altos connected via ethernet, one user per system. > > You got one point straight. With the Amiga and the Atari costing >the same amount for the least common denominator, the Atari is just silly, >and a waste of money. But we all know that. > I don't think so. The Atari and Amiga both have qualities that the other lacks, but the atari is not a waste of money. It depends on what you want to do with it -- The amiga makes a lousy cash register... I know, I've seen it. The ST makes a lousy music box, but a very good MIDI computer. > > I would too if the machine and OS did nothing. I always wanted ZERO >colors in high resolution mode. Oh wait, thats black and white, right? > You must be one of those people who can work for hours in front of a color monitor. I am not one of those people. I have a higher bandwidth than that. 60 Hz is still annoying, 70 Hz is barely acceptable. Color monitors are hard on the eyes, but Amiga doesn't have a monochrome monitor. Sure, you can attach one, but without a non-color mode, the resolution and screen refresh is no better. For music control applications, most word processiong, and a majority of non-game activities can be done just fine with two colors. > > So why on earth do you have an Atari? > 1) Software is cheaper and more stable. 2) The monochrome monitor's 70 Hz refresh is much easiser on my eyes. 3) When I bought my Atari ST, the Amiga cost about 3 to 5 times as much. 4) Every time I've gone to look at an Amiga at the local computer shop where they push the Amiga much more than the ST, the demo copies of the software are ALWAYS corrupted because the Amiga multi-tasking really screws up royally on a single drive system and corrupts disks left and right. 5) Application startup is usually very slow. 6) I've worked on good graphics systems that would leave you amigoids crying into your HAM images, and know more about graphics hardware than most of you. The Amiga is a limited purpose machine because it has such a great video and audio capability that in order to utilize the hardware, you really must fit your software to the hardware. This is fine for games and graphics of sorts, but not great for general purpose computing. I'm trying not to flame here... >-- >Work: Computer Consoles Inc. (CCI), Advanced Development Group (ADG) > Irvine, CA (RISCy business! Home of the CCI POWER 6/32) >UUCP: uunet!ccicpg!harald I'm not even going to go into your false statements about Atari and Federated coporate policy. Don't talk so smugly about things which you only assume. Until you know some of the facts, don't claim to know the one true way. Enlightenment comes not to those who insist that they are already enlightened thus blind themselves. What I want to know is why you Amiga people insist on coming over here to constantly flame the ST, and then attack anyone from here who goes into amiga territory and flames the Amiga. If you think we are all such fools in this group for owning Atari STs, then let us be fools. We know about your wonder machine. You and it can go and rot in peace, for all most of us care. We have made our choices. It is not for you to say if our choice was right or wrong, it would have been wrong for you, and that is fine, but I wish to any god that might be listening that you and your friends would S H U T T H E H E C K U P ! ! ! ! ! ! Leave it be. Let us live in our folly before we come over and dump all over your front lawn and dig up your daisies! -- Daniel A. Glasser ...!ihnp4!chinet!dag ...!ihnp4!mwc!dag ...!ihnp4!mwc!gorgon!dag One of those things that goes "BUMP!!! (ouch!)" in the night.
harald@ccicpg.UUCP ( Harald Milne) (12/15/87)
In article <6946@ccicpg.UUCP> harald@ccicpg.UUCP ( Harald Milne) writes: > [a bunch of ASSinine tripe about why HE is right and everyone else > stupid...unless they like Amiga...] -Todd Burkey Well Todd I didn't think you would be a jerk again by cross posting garbage from comp.sys.atari to comp.sys.amiga. But you did it again. Are you gonna wake up any day now? Cross posting inflamatory garbarge is a good way to piss a lot of people off. If you had any brains you would have at least learned this by now. Anybody who posts in response to your garbage will surely cause this shit to go on forever. I really could care less what you think about me or the Amiga. Stop cross posting stupidity. Just stop cross posting. Period. If you want to talk technical, fine by me. If you want to say stupid and false statements about the Amiga and cross post this garbage, then the hell with you. Notice this is NOT cross posted, so you will probably never see it. -- Work: Computer Consoles Inc. (CCI), Advanced Development Group (ADG) Irvine, CA (RISCy business! Home of the CCI POWER 6/32) UUCP: uunet!ccicpg!harald
richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) (12/16/87)
In article <280@stag.UUCP> trb@stag.UUCP ( Todd Burkey ) writes: >In article <6946@ccicpg.UUCP> harald@ccicpg.UUCP ( Harald Milne) writes: >> [a bunch of ASSinine tripe about why HE is right and everyone else >> stupid...unless they like Amiga...] Oh no. I have an Amiga, and Harald thinks I'm pretty stupid. >Great technical discussion there, Harald...Glad to hear that all your >friends smoke dope...am sure they are pleased :-). Damn! I knew I should have cultivated Harald's friendship when I had the chance. >Just so people don't get >the wrong idea about MIDI-MAZE (rumor is that it will be out for Amiga). >I do happen to have hunt on my Unix Box here (Symmetrics 375) and it >isn't anything like midi-maze. If you want to go back in your source >archives a year or so, you will see a program called MAZEWAR (early >PARC days). I know it has been upgraded to run on Xwindows and it is >more like Midi-maze (graphics, real perspective, etc). But even >mazewar doesn't come close to midi-maze. Course, even amiga people >will have to haul their computers over to friends houses. Well, shoot. Do we tell 'em now ? Aw hell, might as well. Well, the REAL reason there isn't s MIDI port on the Amiga, is because it would have interfered with PSI-net (tm), the telepathic network driver developed by Sunny Kirsten. So you see, Amiga people don't need to shuttle their machines around in the cold and snow just to play silly games. Oooooooooommmm. >I can only hook one extra terminal >up to my ST (my Wyse while in the Multi-tasking C-Shell), but that is >really only useful for editting and compiling...I can't hook other >graphics tubes up (and doubt I would ever care to). I wasn't ever able >to get my Wyse working as a terminal on the Amiga. Well thats it. The ultimate reason to buy an Atari ST. You can hook up a Wyse terminal to it. > -Todd Burkey "Have a nice winter" -- "Well they say, that Santa Fe, is more, than 90 miles away" UUCP: {ihnp4!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!richard INET: richard@gryphon.CTS.COM
legare@ut-emx.UUCP (BoB teCh) (12/17/87)
richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) patiently explains: > > Well, the REAL reason there isn't s MIDI port on the Amiga, is because > it would have interfered with PSI-net (tm), the telepathic network > driver developed by Sunny Kirsten. So you see, Amiga people don't need > to shuttle their machines around in the cold and snow just to play silly > games. > > Oooooooooommmm. > there HAS been a bug found in PSInet v. 1.3 to wit: the system will function only if all Amiga users believe it exists. now, we've got a couple Amigai here in the lab, and.. well... i don't believe it. <crash> <maim> <sound of Sunny Kirsten being outraged> wups. BoB teCh real man use computers without graphics. REAL real man use computers without terminals! REAL REAL real <gak>
trb@stag.UUCP ( Todd Burkey ) (12/19/87)
Jeeze, what foul language...On another tack...Has anyone ported combat (the original Merrits version with Gorns, etc) to the Amiga? I have seen it on the PC (running locally on a 16 port PC XT...one of the Gambit bbs's), but not on any other PC's. I was thinking of porting it (or Mazewars) to the ST, but don't have access to the PC source, just some old MNF fortran source and a later Compass assembly code version, nd limited access to another version...none of which would port cleanly to any PC without some playing around developing multi-user support over RS232 and Midi connections. -Todd Burkey trb@stag.UUCP P.S. mail any replies to me and I will summarize to the net if necessary (I just read the amiga section when friends that own amigas tell me there is something interesting to read :-) ).