shah1@houxa.UUCP (J.SHAH) (12/15/87)
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I recently bought an AMIGA 500 after doing some research on the AMIGA
family of computers. The A500 cost me $539 plus taxes in New York City.
I suspect that we will be able to purchase the A2000 for about a $1000 more
in the open market as soon as they are available in volume. The question is
what are we getting for $1000?
IBM compatibility has been discussed at length on this news group. I am an
convert to the AMIGA from the IBM family (I still have an IBM PS/2 and an AT
with the whole works at home) and to me having IBM capability on an AMIGA is
like having "Chevy Capability" on a Rolls Royce. Besides, I can always buy an
IBM 8088 Clone with CGA graphics for about $550. The IBM card on the A2000
even at the discounted prices is not a good deal at all. Lets be honest, how
many of us technical types are dying to use spreadsheets and databases on
PC compatibles. CBM alreay has machines for the MS-DOS market and thats
the way they are addressing the PC-compatible market. The main point is
PC compatibility is not going to make or break the amigas.
The A2000 has a robust power supply and that has a value of about $50 to me
because my friends (EEs) tell me thats how much a more robust power supply
for the A500 should cost. The power supply for the A500 is a very poor
marketing and technical decision on the part of CBM. I would have been
more than willing to pay an incremental cost of $25 for a better power
supply.
The expansion capability of the A2000 comes to mind. I consider myself to be
an average user. On my computer (A500) I need a parallel port, a serial port
(I need two on the IBM because a mouse port on the older machines were
not available), room for a multifunction card (which may include room for
memory, math chips, clock etc), hard disk controller, possibly a memory
card. The maximum number of expansion cards an average user will need is in the
range of 2-3 and so the A2000 expansion capability is an overkill for the
average user. CBM could have engieered an "AMIGA 1250" with 3 expansion slots
and without any IBM compatible crap on it and still make the machine sell at the
$900 (discounted) price range. Thats what I would have preferred to buy.
The industry is rushing to offer expansion capability on the A500. Pacific
already has a two slot expansion box for the A500 at $249. That price is still
high and I think competition will drive the price of a bare box down to about
$150 range but this is a move in the right direction. I suspect some company is
going to come up with an expansion box for A500 with three slots and housing
for a harddisk and a floppy (large power supply included) in the $200-250
range.
So to me the A2000 expansion capability is worth about $300 more not $1000.
The A2000 focuses on a very small market segment and is very good for a
Byte magazine story on IBM compatibility. If CBM management is smart they will
put their effort on the A500 and the "A1250". The peripheral vendors are already
working on A500 expansions. I already miss the cheap expansion cards
of good quality
in the IBM compatible area. $350 for a hard disk controller ? Come on ! ypu
must be joking? A blank memory card for $300? Oh yes, some body will pay any
amount of money to keep their AMIGA religion alive.
It is clear that the driving force is the AMIGA 500 and because of the
number of A500s being sold, we will begin to see more
quality software at competitive
prices. Yes, I have couple of C-64s at home and we enjoy the large number of
games avilable on it. Looks like CBM has created another people's computer:
the AMIGA 500 and we are glad to be a part of the Amiga 500 community.
A500 is not a second class citizen compared to the A2000, it is the wave of the
future.
Shah Jahan
AT&T Bell Labs
Holmdel, NJ 07733
(201) 949-1680
Disclaimer: These are personal opinions and are in no way endorsed by
my employer AT&T Bell Labs.
A1250 is an unregistered thought mark of the Network Philosophy Inc.phils@tekig.TEK.COM (Phil Staub) (12/17/87)
In article <1827@houxa.UUCP> shah1@houxa.UUCP (J.SHAH) writes: >even at the discounted prices is not a good deal at all. Lets be honest, how >many of us technical types are dying to use spreadsheets and databases on >PC compatibles. CBM alreay has machines for the MS-DOS market and thats Frankly, not many of the technical types I work with have any use for spread sheets and databases. We're more into Compilers and Debuggers. Although I would have agreed had you mentioned CAD packages. [...] > Shah Jahan > AT&T Bell Labs > Holmdel, NJ 07733 > (201) 949-1680 > Phil -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Phil Staub "I do NOT approve. I merely said I UNDERSTAND." tektronix!tekigm2!phils - Spock phils@tekigm2.TEK.COM
phils@tekig.TEK.COM (Phil Staub) (12/17/87)
In article <648@tekig.TEK.COM> phils@tekig.UUCP (Phil Staub) writes: .In article <1827@houxa.UUCP> shah1@houxa.UUCP (J.SHAH) writes: .>even at the discounted prices is not a good deal at all. Lets be honest, how .>many of us technical types are dying to use spreadsheets and databases on .>PC compatibles. CBM alreay has machines for the MS-DOS market and thats . .Frankly, not many of the technical types I work with have any use for spread .sheets and databases. We're more into Compilers and Debuggers. Although I .would have agreed had you mentioned CAD packages. .[...] .> Shah Jahan .> AT&T Bell Labs .> Holmdel, NJ 07733 .> (201) 949-1680 .Phil .------------------------------------------------------------------------------ .Phil Staub "I do NOT approve. I merely said I UNDERSTAND." .tektronix!tekigm2!phils - Spock .phils@tekigm2.TEK.COM Oops. Egg on face. I guess that's the point you were trying to get across. Sorry. Phil -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Phil Staub "I do NOT approve. I merely said I UNDERSTAND." tektronix!tekigm2!phils - Spock phils@tekigm2.TEK.COM
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (12/18/87)
in article <1827@houxa.UUCP>, shah1@houxa.UUCP (J.SHAH) says: > Summary: A500, A2000 etc > > IBM compatibility has been discussed at length on this news group. ... > The main point is PC compatibility is not going to make or break the amigas. Provision for IBM compatibility in the A2000 is basically a very minor cost of the whole A2000. And what advantages does it give you? Well, I'm certainly not impressed with IBM software; there's lots of it, fer shure. But by around this point in time, I can get better versions of most of the things I'd like to do in Amiga clothing. There are a few things, though, that are ONLY in IBM format. At work, for instance, I use a PAL compiler called CUPL. If they come out with an Amiga version, I could just about throw away the Bridge Card I'm using. But I'm not holding my breathe, this is such a small market item I doubt the Amiga version is just around the corner. Another thing a PC is good for is hardware. Every thing ever envisioned in the world of personal computer hardware is on an IBM PC-XT card. I'd much rather have it on the higher performance Amiga bus, but again, don't cut off your oxygen supply waiting for some of these items; if a company sells 50 of their PC-XT compatible Scientific Device X per month to an installed base of some 12 million PC[lones], I don't expect they'd consider it worth their while to try and sell to 100,000 or whatever A2000s. So if I need this item, I either have to devolve and use a real PC, or use it in my Amiga with a Bridge Card. If I'm writing my own software, I might as well use the 8088 as an I/O processor. > The A2000 has a robust power supply and that has a value of about $50 to me > because my friends (EEs) tell me thats how much a more robust power supply > for the A500 should cost. How much are you paying for 200 Watt power supplies these days? That's what's in an A2000, and if you can get one for $50-$75, let me know, Commodore may be interested in such a deal... > The expansion capability of the A2000 comes to mind. I consider myself to be > an average user. On my computer (A500) I need a parallel port, a serial port > (I need two on the IBM because a mouse port on the older machines were > not available), room for a multifunction card (which may include room for > memory, math chips, clock etc), hard disk controller, possibly a memory > card. The maximum number of expansion cards an average user will need is in the > range of 2-3 and so the A2000 expansion capability is an overkill for the > average user. CBM could have engieered an "AMIGA 1250" with 3 expansion slots > and without any IBM compatible crap on it and still make the machine sell at the > $900 (discounted) price range. Thats what I would have preferred to buy. We could have even sold you exactly the same machine with various different amounts of memory in them, like some other computer companies would. However, that's not our style. And besides, you always run out of slots, it just takes the average A2000 user a longer time. The average Amiga user is obviously the A500 user, who doesn't even need three slots. > So to me the A2000 expansion capability is worth about $300 more not $1000. But like you said, you're not a power user. You won't want fast 68020 cards or DSP boards or deinterlacers or Video peripherals. Fine. Don't get mad at the A2000 if it's not your cup of tea (the A2000 is actually a keg of beer, not a cup of tea, but that's beside the point). > The A2000 focuses on a very small market segment and is very good for a > Byte magazine story on IBM compatibility. That's why the A2000 is for the "Professional" market, while the A500 is for the "Mass" market. Your tastes run to the high end of the mass market. That's what 3rd party vendors are for in this case, to enhance the value of your low end machine. If Commodore started making 20 different computers, one at each possible level of entry, and all the add-ons at extremely low prices, we'd pretty soon be the only ones in the world making Amiga hardware. And the entire Amiga market would suffer for that. > A500 is not a second class citizen compared to the A2000, it is the wave of > the future. They really run in parallel. The A500 promotes lots of low cost software being written. The A2000 promotes more expensive high-end software being written. And they're compatible across the family of Amigas, so if you decide you want to design circuits on an A500, or I want to play Starglider on my A2000, everything's cool. > Shah Jahan > AT&T Bell Labs > Holmdel, NJ 07733 > (201) 949-1680 -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga Usenet: {ihnp4|uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh "The B2000 Guy" PLINK : D-DAVE H BIX : hazy "I can't relax, 'cause I'm a Boinger!"
bakken@hrsw2.UUCP (David E. Bakken) (12/18/87)
In article <1827@houxa.UUCP>, shah1@houxa.UUCP (J.SHAH) writes: > XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX > I recently bought an AMIGA 500 after doing some research on the AMIGA > family of computers. The A500 cost me $539 plus taxes in New York City. > I suspect that we will be able to purchase the A2000 for about a $1000 more > in the open market as soon as they are available in volume. The question is > what are we getting for $1000? > > [Shah goes on to discuss how (HAL >> 1) compatibility, extra power supply, > and the extra expansion capabilities aren't worth $1000 to him.] I agree with your assesment for the most part, but you are forgetting the CPU and the video slot. The former lets you plug in 68020/68881/MMU cards (or whatever 3rd party companies and CA offer) and the latter lets you plug in de-interlacers and hopefully someday the hardware to support monitors in the 1Kx1K range (when they come down from $2.5K). If you think you will never need either of these slots then the A500 is probably your best bet. But if you think you might want them.... -- Dave Bakken Boeing Commercial Airplane Company uw-beaver!apcisea!tahoma!hrsw2!bakken (206) 234-2039 (generic) disclaimer: these views are my own, not my employers.
keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) (12/19/87)
Question:
Can an Amiga program running under AmigaDOS talk to AT compatible
cards on an A2000 that does NOT contain a bridge card? How is this
done? Is there a 'C' library somewhere for such things?
Keith Doyle
# {ucbvax,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd Contel Business Systems 213-323-8170mike@ronin.cc.umich.edu (Michael Nowak) (12/20/87)
In article <1927@cadovax.UUCP> keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) writes: > >Question: > >Can an Amiga program running under AmigaDOS talk to AT compatible >cards on an A2000 that does NOT contain a bridge card? How is this >done? Is there a 'C' library somewhere for such things? > >Keith Doyle ># {ucbvax,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd Contel Business Systems 213-323-8170 Additionally, where can one find documentation for accessing the BridgeBoard itself for Amiga programs? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ In Real Life: Michael Nowak Via Internet: mike@ronin.cc.umich.edu Via UUCP: uunet!umix!ronin.cc.umich.edu!mike Working for but in no way representing the University of Michigan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
harald@ccicpg.UUCP ( Harald Milne) (12/20/87)
In article <1927@cadovax.UUCP>, keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) writes: > Question: > Can an Amiga program running under AmigaDOS talk to AT compatible > cards on an A2000 that does NOT contain a bridge card? How is this > done? Is there a 'C' library somewhere for such things? No. The bridge card is exactly that. A bridge between the two busses. The two busses are disconnected. There is supposedly a "Null" bridge card in the works, that will let you do this. The C library you might be refering to is Janus.library . This only works with the bridge card. > Keith Doyle > # {ucbvax,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd Contel Business Systems 213-323-8170 -- Work: Computer Consoles Inc. (CCI), Advanced Development Group (ADG) Irvine, CA (RISCy business! Home of the CCI POWER 6/32) UUCP: uunet!ccicpg!harald
harald@ccicpg.UUCP ( Harald Milne) (12/20/87)
In article <413@tardis.cc.umich.edu>, mike@ronin.cc.umich.edu (Michael Nowak) writes: > Additionally, where can one find documentation for accessing the BridgeBoard > itself for Amiga programs? Its available from CBM, in the A500/A2000 schematic package from CATS. -- Work: Computer Consoles Inc. (CCI), Advanced Development Group (ADG) Irvine, CA (RISCy business! Home of the CCI POWER 6/32) UUCP: uunet!ccicpg!harald
jojo@astroatc.UUCP (Jon Wesener) (12/22/87)
In article <31@hrsw2.UUCP> bakken@hrsw2.UUCP (David E. Bakken) writes: >In article <1827@houxa.UUCP>, shah1@houxa.UUCP (J.SHAH) writes: >> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX >> [Shah goes on to discuss how (HAL >> 1) compatibility, extra power supply, >> and the extra expansion capabilities aren't worth $1000 to him.] > >I agree with your assesment for the most part, but you are forgetting the >CPU and the video slot. The former lets you plug in 68020/68881/MMU cards >... >think you will never need either of these slots then the A500 is probably >your best bet. But if you think you might want them.... I just got mail from the graphic connection and they had some expansion stuff for the A500 which included 2meg of memory AND a 68020/68881 cpu board. I didn't see any mention of the mmu, though. It was priced at $750, sorry but I can't remember who it was made by, but I still have the info at home. It looked very interesting, because I too am debating over getting the 2000 because of the expansion capabilities. The IBM capability just isn't that necessary to me. The Amiga has good word processors and spreadsheets, already, and I'm really tired of PC-DOS! If someone just came out with a good expansion box for the 500, with more than just 2 slots, and support for the cpu and video slot, they'd have a happy customer with me! --j -- jon wesener ... {seismo | harvard | ihnp4} ! {uwvax | cs.wisc.edu} ! astroatc!jojo hating tomorrow's advertising, today.
bill@cbmvax.UUCP (Bill Koester CATS) (12/23/87)
In article <413@tardis.cc.umich.edu> mike@ronin.cc.umich.edu (Michael Nowak) writes: >In article <1927@cadovax.UUCP> keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) writes: >> >>Question: >> >>Can an Amiga program running under AmigaDOS talk to AT compatible >>cards on an A2000 that does NOT contain a bridge card? How is this >>done? Is there a 'C' library somewhere for such things? >> >>Keith Doyle >># {ucbvax,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd Contel Business Systems 213-323-8170 > >Additionally, where can one find documentation for accessing the BridgeBoard >itself for Amiga programs? > The only BRIDGE between the PC side and the Amiga side is the Bridgeboard so no PC cards cannot be accessed from the Amiga side without a bridgeboard. The routines for accessing the bridgeboard are documented in the A500/A2000 reference manual under janus.lib. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Bill Koester -- CBM >>Amiga Technical Support<< UUCP ...{allegra|burdvax|rutgers|ihnp4}!cbmvax!bill PHONE (215) 431-9355 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Pleese desrigard eny spealing airors!!!!!!!!!!! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) (12/23/87)
In article <2957@cbmvax.UUCP>, daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes: > in article <1827@houxa.UUCP>, shah1@houxa.UUCP (J.SHAH) says: >> Summary: A500, A2000 etc > >> So to me the A2000 expansion capability is worth about $300 more not $1000. > > But like you said, you're not a power user. You won't want fast 68020 cards > or DSP boards or deinterlacers or Video peripherals. I do! I do! I do! (Now if I can just find a small foreign government that would loan me the cash...) Guess I'll make do with an A500 for now. > They really run in parallel. > And they're compatible across the family of Amigas :) Which means I can get started now (well, pretty soon), and get started doing interesting stuff and upgrade later, rather than having to wait n millenia to do *anything*. seh
grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) (12/28/87)
In article <1827@houxa.UUCP> shah1@houxa.UUCP (J.SHAH) writes: > I recently bought an AMIGA 500 after doing some research on the AMIGA > family of computers. The A500 cost me $539 plus taxes in New York City. > > The A2000 has a robust power supply and that has a value of about $50 to me > because my friends (EEs) tell me thats how much a more robust power supply > for the A500 should cost. The power supply for the A500 is a very poor > marketing and technical decision on the part of CBM. I would have been > more than willing to pay an incremental cost of $25 for a better power > supply. You're simply repeating an unwarranted assumption that the A500 power supply doesn't have a high enough rating for what we intended it to do. This isn't so, make some measurements if you want. On the other hand we did make a decision not to provide arbitrary amounts of power for external or internal expansion devices. We had a fairly clear idea of what kind of expansion we thought the "typical" user would want, and tried to make this possible without penalizing everyone who bought the machine. > The expansion capability of the A2000 comes to mind. I consider myself to be > an average user. On my computer (A500) I need a parallel port, a serial port > (I need two on the IBM because a mouse port on the older machines were > not available), room for a multifunction card (which may include room for > memory, math chips, clock etc), hard disk controller, possibly a memory > card. The maximum number of expansion cards an average user will need is in > the range of 2-3 and so the A2000 expansion capability is an overkill for the > average user. CBM could have engieered an "AMIGA 1250" with 3 expansion slots > and without any IBM compatible crap on it and still make the machine sell at > the $900 (discounted) price range. Thats what I would have preferred to buy. Producing several versions of the same product with only minor cost/ feature differentions between them is not necessarily a good idea. The only difference between your A1250 and the A2000 is a $/watt power supply cost and a few connectors. > So to me the A2000 expansion capability is worth about $300 more not $1000. > The A2000 focuses on a very small market segment and is very good for a > Byte magazine story on IBM compatibility. If CBM management is smart they will > put their effort on the A500 and the "A1250". The peripheral vendors are > already working on A500 expansions. The distinction between the A500 and A2000 isn't in terms of cost, but in terms of the profile of the user. The idea is that anybody who want's one can afford to walk in and buy an A500, and the either expand it as he needs/can afford or upgrade to and A2000. The A2000 is intended to appeal the the person who has some definite needs or ideas about what he wants in terms of configuration. Assume that Commodore has limited resources to devote to engineering and product development/manufacturing. Should we spend our time on intermediate products, or concentrate on "better" versions of what we have, and let the marketing people worry about the pricing for the existing products? -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {uunet|ihnp4|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@uunet.uu.net Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
alex@.UUCP (Alex Laney) (12/31/87)
Don't forget the CPU and video slots, or the detached keyboard, or the bays for disk drives. Still, is that $1000 worth? I would like to see some sort of PC Bus Adaptor card to make PC Bus peripherals accessible without the Bridge card. This is definitely special-purpose. Hmm, maybe PC Bus memory cards could be usable 'cache disks' And networking cards are abundant on the PC Bus. Also, while the 8088 bridge card is not visibly great, a '286, or more specifically, a '386 card would give you a usable Unix development machine at a cheap price. So there's definitely some use for it ( :-) for CBM ) -- Alex Laney alex@xicom.UUCP ...utzoo!dciem!nrcaer!xios!xicom!alex Xicom Technologies, 205-1545 Carling Av., Ottawa, Ontario, Canada We may have written the SNA software you use. The opinions are my own.
erd@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Ethan R. Dicks) (01/06/88)
In article <491@.UUCP> alex@.UUCP (Alex Laney) writes: >I would like to see some sort of PC Bus Adaptor card to make PC Bus peripherals >accessible without the Bridge card. This is definitely special-purpose. Hmm, >maybe PC Bus memory cards could be usable 'cache disks' And networking cards >are abundant on the PC Bus. Well, the WEDGE for the 2000 sounds like the right part. Once those wonderful fellows up in Canada get one working, it should do the trick. Also, while on the same topic, I have not given my $.02 USD worth about the WEDGE, since I am not using it yet. This is through no fault of the product, but of local market demands. I do not have a hard drive to stick on it. There are no places in Cowlumbus Ohio which stock _used_ hard drives of any size. I do not want to pay $240-$350 USD for a new ST225 with controller. If anyone is listening who has a used smallish drive (<30 mb) that is looking for a home, I could greatly use one. I am very anxious to get a drive online. Once I get a drive, I am going to get a 5 slot PeeCee Extee backplane from Ciarcia's circuit cellar ( ~$35 bare), so I can write _drivers_ for boards for that bus. >Alex Laney alex@xicom.UUCP ...utzoo!dciem!nrcaer!xios!xicom!alex >Xicom Technologies, 205-1545 Carling Av., Ottawa, Ontario, Canada >We may have written the SNA software you use. >The opinions are my own. Thanks, -ethan -- Ethan R. Dicks | ###### This signifies that the poster is a member in 2433 N. Fourth St| ## good sitting of Inertia House: Bodies at rest. Columbus OH 43202| ## (614) 262-0461 | ###### "You get it, you're closer."