tsouth@pro-pac.CTS.COM (Todd South) (01/27/88)
::>> In article <155@atrium.UUCP>, chanst@atrium.UUCP (Steve T Chan) writes: :> In Article: <4744@watdragon.waterloo.edu>, palarson@ (Paul Larson) writes: >> In Article: <2408@crash.cts.com> (Todd South) writes: > In Article: <39940@sun.uucp> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: ::>> If the software companies could just get the software prices lower, then ::>> people will buy them to get the documentation instead of just pirating ::>> them, I just hope that the software companies will listen and drop their ::>> prices.. See, $20-50 is a reasonable price for a software package in ::>> my point of view, but $90-200 or 300 is way overpriced. How would ::>> you expect people to buy stuff thats overpriced?? They don't ::> In my opinion, your suggestion of software packages for lessa than fifty ::> dollars each is ludicrous, considering the how much development time and ::> effort a good piece of software represents. However, we do live in a ::> capitalist democracy, so nothing is preseventing you from voting with your ::> wallet. >>Paul, it's your kind of thinking that really blows me away in terms of the >>actual authors making money on software. If a mail-order house can buy >>software (or hardware) for a _low_ price, and sell it for sometimes as much >>as 80 dollars (US) less, then how can you say that the authors would NOT make >>the same amount of money simply distributing it to the end-user themselves? This __\ /__ was my main point, I should have clarified it. \/ >>I still think that there are too many middle people in this market, and >>most of the major companies like it that way. Ultimately, the reason that >>a number of contributers to this system, who write commercially, seem to >>discount is the fact that each and every software purchase by a majority of >>users is a _major_ purchase, and that, my friends, is why piracy exists. >>It is not just the simple fact that people cannot afford it, but that they >>cannot afford to get burned, also, with each purchase that doesn't do what >>they need. >Actually, Todd is displaying a lack of understanding here hopefully we >can educate him before he goes broke. > > > etc, etc... into the longest and most _well written_ response that > I have ever seen on this forum! > Now, Chuck, the response from you was excellent, and I actually learned a lot about you, and opinions in general from the _small_ software developer. So, PLEASE do not take this as a *flame* as I do not mean it that way and I want to expand on the original point that I was trying to make and should have clarified in the first place. What I am talking about is not the small-time developer. I'm refering to the developer that does nothing but manage. I admit, I may have ASSuMEd too much from the short response of Paul Larson in the above messages, and if so, I would like to admonish that. I have two cases in point that I would like to pose to you that will show what I am talking about. [Background]: I'm in the military, and do not program for a living, and do not make that much money. Period. [Case One]: I just saved up enough money to buy my first modem upon returning to the states from overseas. I walk in, pay cash for the modem, and then find out that there are no Software packages other than the one published by Apple in the store. (Which I shall call WallyLand so as to no implicate that particular store) I purchase this communications package, called Apple Access ][ from the dealer, and go home happy. When I get home, the package works fine. [Five Days Later]: I find out that it is possible to send and receive programs via the modem (DON'T LAUGH this was a LONG time ago!) and try to do it. The process looks fine, but the end-product refuses to work! Then, after some research, I find out that this program that I paid 90 dollars for has KNOWN bugs in it that don't allow it to transfer files right. So, I go back to the dealer and ask for my money back because the package does _not_ do what it _specifically_ says that it will do (in my opinion). His opinion was that if it transfers them then it works, even if the transfered product does not. I called the manager of WallyLand and he said that all software was non-refundable, and they would not even apply the purchase to another product if I gave them the program back. I called Apple Computer, Inc. and was told that they could not help me as all support for the product was supplied through their 'authorized' dealer only. [Moral]: I became involved with a group that programmed on a regular basis and worked on the kind of projects I liked, so I joined them. Unfortunately, we all are in the military, so the only way to work efficiently was by transfering our work to each other (due to incompatible military schedules). So, I said, "Bye Bye 90 dollars" and bought something that I KNEW worked from the results I saw watching how other modemers transfered files. [Case Two]: Back to WallyLand, I wanted to buy Pinpoint 2.0 accessories for my Appleworks program (by now I ASSuME that most of you realize I am an Apple user at home) and was told that they had it. I drove down to WallyLand, and bought the package that was reserved for me (It had no version number on the outside and the dealer would not open it up to find out, but promised that it was version 2.0). Arriving home, I booted up the software (which had no version number in the manual, registration, or disk label) and saw a quickly flashed screen that said version 1.0! So, I immediately trudged down to WallyLand and got the same answer that I received with Access ][ -- "We don't do refunds." I called the Pinpoint publishing people, and they said that for 25 dollars (over the 70 I had just blown!) they would send me the upgrade, and that I had to send the original disks along too. So, I asked how long it would take, and they could not give me a time. [Moral]: I got pissed off, and bought a rival product that had the version number on the labelling of THEIR product, and Pinpoint sat on my desk till I sold it to someone that could use it with their older version of Appleworks for a LARGE loss on my part. Net loss: 40 dollars. [Conclusions]: Well, first off, I probably should have titled my Subject line a little better, and explained myself to the net a little better. But, I have hashed this subject around on my bbs a lot, and something in those conversations that related to what Paul said triggered my hostility to the companies that charged (in my opinion) a lot for a product that they really didn't support well or publish well (again in my opinion). So, I have come to the conclusion that there are just too many middle persons involved in the whole process, and in your own article you even stated this over and over: >Now you are up to having to sell 180 copies >before you start making money, however the magazine will give me credit >so I don't have to pay that right away. Besides, these magazines >assure me that "thousands of Amiga enthusiasts" read their magazine so >I'll probably sell hundreds more copies. >A third comes up, wants to buy it but only if she can use her credit card. >Since you don't have a merchants number with a bank you have to refuse. She /|\ >The distributor >says "Great, will take 20 at the standard discount." Being naive and not >knowing what the standard discount is you ask. They tell you it's 60 points. >Meaning they will buy the programs from you for 40% of the list price or >$19.98 each. This lets them sell them to dealers at 40 points and then >the dealers can still make a little money if they take 10 or 20% off the >list price. Steve Chan (remember him, the first letter in the synopsis?) wrote about companies, not authors. I meant that authors who work for companies do get paid (at least the ones that I know of) decently. Lotus, I feel, sells for so much because they KNOW that businesses write it off! Not, because they want to make the home user pay. Although, I will have to admit one thing -- Lotus sure as hell provided my work center with support! Again, thanks for the really interesting and really entertaining response. You ought to do some short stories! Also, I am currently saving up for an Amiga 2000 (or 3000, depending on when I have enough money :-) !) and really like the ability of the net here to throw around and talk about products/anything on a national basis. The ability to send mail directly to CATS alone makes my running a bbs system that interacts with Usenet, BITNET, etc.. a definite plus. I only wish that more people could get involved in the 'total net' and gain from its current and future users' knowledge, information, and willingness to help... Todd South +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | uucp: crash!pnet01!pro-simasd!pro-pac!tsouth | Now I only get 50 | | Todd South : Ewa Beach, HI. | cents less than | | Pacific Proline: (808) 499-2831 2400 bd. | minimum wage... | +------------------------------------------------------------------+
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (01/29/88)
In article <2420@crash.cts.com> tsouth@pro-pac.CTS.COM (Todd South) writes: >What I am talking about is not the small-time developer. I'm refering to the >developer that does nothing but manage. I am not sure what this means, someone who only manages, manages what? >[Background]: >I'm in the military, and do not program for a living, and do not make that much >money. Period. ok, granted. (This also works if you replace 'the military' with 'college' :-)) >[Case One]: > I purchase this communications package, called Apple Access ][ from the > dealer, and go home happy. When I get home, the package works fine. >[Five Days Later]: > Then, after some research, I find out that this program that I paid 90 > dollars for has KNOWN bugs in it that don't allow it to transfer files > right. Ok simply restated, you buy a package, A, take it home and find out that one or more of it's functions do not work. When you get to the dealer he disagrees with your assesment, and you call Apple and they give you some crap about not being able to support you because of where you bought the program. This is a failure on Apples part to support the product. It is too bad you weren't living in california which has state laws concerning warranties and such. Basically it doesn't matter *who* you bought something from, if it breaks under warranty (and there are implied warranties too) then they must fix it or replace it. >[Moral]: > So, I said, "Bye Bye 90 dollars" and bought something that I KNEW worked > from the results I saw watching how other modemers transfered files. I would reccomend this to all new computer owners, find someone who has a package that you know does what you want because that way you are assured that the product is usable. [My Moral] Just because a company is large or small has zero influence over how well they will support their product. If this had been a product of mine and you were unsatisfied I would have cheerfully refunded your money. Here is another pitfall of distribution though, if this program had been sold through distribution then the end user wants *all* his money back rather than what the distributor paid you for the package. That is no fun at all. >[Case Two]: Summarized: I went to buy ver 2.0, but was sold ver 1.0, and the dealer again refused to help out. Then Apple wants a $25 upgrade fee. >[Moral]: >I got pissed off, and bought a rival product that had the version number on the >labelling of THEIR product, and Pinpoint sat on my desk till I sold it to >someone that could use it with their older version of Appleworks for a LARGE >loss on my part. Net loss: 40 dollars. A couple of morals here, (no pun intended). When you found out that Wallyland was not an Apple Authorized dealer, and that Apple would not support anything they sold, you should have changed dealers. Second moral, for the developer this time, Todd is pissed off at YOU because the DEALER screwed him. And no it isn't fair, but this happens all the time. You get a call from someone who is yelling at you because the dealer won't return their money, not fair but look out for it. Another problem is something called 'Pipeline' stock, that is, you have mailed out 500 copies of some wonderful program to distributors and then produce an Update. Now all the distributors want to return their unsold merchandise for the new version. (all at your expense of course). This can be significant if you have lots of stuff in the pipeline. This is also why some cash strapped developers offer new versions of the program with a different name like Frotzo Plus, claiming that you still support the Frotzo program (and all of it's bugs) but reccomend Frotzo Plus to your new customers. Finally, it is extremely nice if you can offer a free upgrade to those people who bought the program say within a couple of months of the distribution of the update. That will save you a lot of customers would otherwise feel cheated. >[Conclusions]: >Well, first off, I probably should have titled my Subject line a little better, >and explained myself to the net a little better. But, I have hashed this >subject around on my bbs a lot, and something in those conversations that >related to what Paul said triggered my hostility to the companies that charged >(in my opinion) a lot for a product that they really didn't support well or >publish well (again in my opinion). So, I have come to the conclusion that >there are just too many middle persons involved in the whole process, and in >your own article you even stated this over and over: Well, first off, I probably would have sold my Apple and gotten a computer someone seemed to care about :-). I really can understand the issues you raised, however I see them as being poor support issues that every company has to take a stand on. If you were a small developer, how would you handle the above two situations? And how do you keep the dealers from misrepresenting you or your product? Tough questions without any simple answers I am afraid. One of the points my article tried to make, was that distributors could help the small developer in getting their program onto dealers shelves. For that service you pay them, and for an equivalent service (you actually flying out and visiting all these dealers) you couldn't afford it. Plus dealers treat distributors like movie critics, when they find one they like they will buy a few copies of anything they reccomend. Not so with some guy that calls from out of nowhere. ("Hi, I wrote Frotzo and I think you could sell a zillion of them. The list price is $50, and I'll sell you 10 copies for $300. Heck these things practically sell themselves, whattaya say?") Final conclusion : When you find a company that doesn't support it's products STOP PATRONIZING THEM, and then if you are really pissed send them a letter explaining why you will never buy another product from them. It helps, and they know that every good sale can make another five, and every pissed off customer can discourage 30 (you see people are much more willing to believe bad things about a product than they are good things, I don't know why but they just do). >Steve Chan (remember him, the first letter in the synopsis?) wrote about >companies, not authors. I meant that authors who work for companies do get >paid (at least the ones that I know of) decently. Lotus, I feel, sells for >so much because they KNOW that businesses write it off! Not, because they >want to make the home user pay. Although, I will have to admit one thing -- >Lotus sure as hell provided my work center with support! I would argue that you could sell a program for *any* price to business if a) It did something they thought they needed to do, and b) you flood them with support if they can't get it to work. As for people like you and me we find other alternatives that cost less. And yes, salaried programmers, can make a decent living (I do :-)) but we all secretly want to get filthy, stinking, rich. I mean Bill Gates did it why can't we :-) And finally, a lot of Amiga programs are published by companies that ARE the author. Sure is says WhizBang Software Inc, but everyone knows it's really just Fred. >Again, thanks for the really interesting and really entertaining response. You >ought to do some short stories! I have but no one has bought one yet. :-( Fortunately BYTE buys an article now and then. :-) --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
chanst@atrium.UUCP (Steve T Chan) (01/30/88)
Let me comment on the very long article that I have just read.. First off, I know support to a product is very important, BUT thats no excuse that it will sell (retail) so much, why is it cost so much for me to get a Lattice C Compiler (for example) at my local dealer, when I can get it from mail order company cheaper?? Now, I don't know about you, but I am feeling that I am getting ripped off just by buying it from my local dealer. Why can't he offer competitive prices as mail order company.. As for your Apple software that does not match the description of the box, Todd.. The act of the software company requesting money for the so called 'upgrade' is cheating, they should have told you to send back the original disk for exchange for the version thats on the box. This has nothing to do with software prices but have to do with Consumer protection, you should have taken this case to the local Better Business Bureau, or the attorney generals office and let them figure it out.. What happens when they say that there is nothing they can do? Well I don't know, because I am not a lawyer. But thats what you should have done, instead of just complaining and complaining to yourself... +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Steve Chan UUCP/ARPA: gatech!petro!atrium!chanst | | @ Atrium @ The Alamo | | San Antonio, Texas | | | | 'If you put your minds to it, you could accomplish anything!' - Doc | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (02/02/88)
In article <189@atrium.UUCP> chanst@atrium.UUCP (Steve T Chan) writes: > Let me comment on the very long article that I have just read.. > First off, I know support to a product is very important, BUT > thats no excuse that it will sell (retail) so much, why is it > cost so much for me to get a Lattice C Compiler (for example) > at my local dealer, when I can get it from mail order company > cheaper?? Now, I don't know about you, but I am feeling that > I am getting ripped off just by buying it from my local dealer. > Why can't he offer competitive prices as mail order company.. Your basic 'mail order' company is some guy sitting around his apartment answering the phone. I knew a guy in college that ran one out of his dorm room, every semester he would trudge down to the PacTel business office and get the 800 number changed to point to where he was moving to. Because of this, it costs him nothing but time to sell this stuff. A dealer on the other hand has to pay rent on the store front, and often commisions to the salespeople. This comes out of their 'profit' as it were. So the bottom line is this, they both pay the same price from the distributor (although sometimes the mail order guy can sometimes get a better price if he does more volume) and the dealer has more overhead which he has to make up. (Or he goes broke and packs up his store, you lose). Just for grins and giggles, the next time you are shopping at the Computer Attic in Palo Alto for a piece of software ask them for the 'Go Amigo' price :-) --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
hrlaser@pnet02.cts.com (Harv Laser) (02/07/88)
lbrown@apctrc.UUCP (Lawrence H. Brown) writes: > Ever see a mail-order company at a computer show? > > >Lawrence H. Brown >Co-founder Tulsa Amiga Group >-- As a matter of fact, yes. Creative Computers, of Santa Monica, CA., is a mail order store like Abel, Mountain, etc. etc. (although CC advertises in the mags while the other two mentioned don't although others not mentioned do) and also a storefront retail shop in the above named city who does a booming business (I have never been in his store when it was NOT absolutely crowded except right after he opened in Aug '87), and he had the ONLY major-software-retailer booth on the floor of AmiExpo in LA, an extremely enviable position! (He also bought the back cover of the AmiExpo handout program for his ad). He's also, to the best of my knowledge, the ONLY retailer in all of So.Calif who deals ONLY in Amiga-related goods: no Mac, PC, 64/128, or any other brand of 'puters and software in the store. Nah, I'm not on his payroll, but he IS a mail order outfit and he WAS selling at a computer show. Harv Laser, Sysop, the People/Link AmigaZone. Plink ID: CBM*HARV UUCP: {ihnp4!scgvaxd!cadovax, rutgers!marque}!gryphon!pnet02!hrlaser INET: hrlaser@pnet02.cts.com "The man in the crowd with the multicolored mirrors on his hobnail boots"