gordan@maccs.UUCP (gordan) (02/11/88)
If you want to read a version of this message without all these annoying Control-L's send $ 15 by e-mail Thank you. -- One foot on a banana peel The other in the Twilight Zone
dick@slvblc.UUCP (Dick Flanagan) (02/13/88)
In article <8503@sunybcs.UUCP> ugpete@sunybcs.uucp (Peter Theobald) writes: > How many times have you read this on the net: > '...<stuff about how OTHERS don't pay for shareware>... > I, however, am sending in my money for <program x> just as > soon as <condition y>' > [...] > How many people have ACTUALLY sent money? Not Real Soon Now. PROCOMM -- $25 \ ARC -- 35 > utilities for IBM PC-types PICNIX -- 15 / The best money I have ever spent on software--bar none--period! If I use it regularly, I pay for it! Dick -- Dick Flanagan, W6OLD GEnie: FLANAGAN UUCP: ...!ucbvax!ucscc!slvblc!dick Voice: +1 408 336 3481 INTERNET: slvblc!dick@ucscc.UCSC.EDU LORAN: N037 05.5 W122 05.2 USPO: PO Box 155, Ben Lomond, CA 95005
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (02/16/88)
In another article kudla@pawl18.pawl.rpi.edu (self proclaimed pirate) writes: > And I made money off my own "MacDoodle 1.3", which I took in about > $50 for. This is a joke right? What do you charge for your time? It took you less than an hour to write MacDoodle? More clearly stated, you should probably said "I got some money for 'MacDoodle 1.3'" because the word "made" implies that more money came out of the result than went in. Take the hours you spent in design, coding, testing, and debugging. Multiply this by $n where n is what you could have made writing code for anyone else (my guess is that n ranges from 5 to 175 depending on the code/employer) and then subtract this from revenue (in this case $50) then say : printf("I %s $%d from MacDoodle",(result < 0) ? "lost" : "made",result); --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
kudla@pawl6.pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) (02/17/88)
In article <42017@sun.uucp> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: >In another article kudla@pawl18.pawl.rpi.edu (self proclaimed pirate) writes: >>(I wrote that I made $50 off a shareware pgm of mine.) > >This is a joke right? What do you charge for your time? It took you less than >an hour to write MacDoodle? More clearly stated, you should probably said >"I got some money for 'MacDoodle 1.3'" because the word "made" implies that >more money came out of the result than went in. Take the hours you spent in >design, coding, testing, and debugging. Multiply this by $n where n is what >you could have made writing code for anyone else (my guess is that n ranges Let me apologize to those of you who don't want to see any of this. I didn't mean to start a flame war, but I do love flaming. First of all, I don't take kindly to those who edit my name. You better believe I'm a self-proclaimed pirate, but what does that have to do with how much I made off a shareware program? Second. Keep in mind a few points about my program. It was for the Commodore 64, where "shareware" is generally taken to mean "public domain". It wasn't a great program; it did what it had to do in compiled BASIC and was thus pretty slow about it. It was very specialized, too: not many Commodorians were interested in grabbing MacPix until MacGeoPaint got written a few months after I got sick of 64's. Further, I released the first two versions into the public domain without even any credits on them (at least none the end user could see). As a matter of fact, I wrote the original program for my own use and found that a few people liked it. By the time V1.3 rolled around, I had stars in my eyes. I was asking for basically any loose change the end user had lying around because I didn't even care. I didn't promote it; as far as I know it's not even on Quantum Link. And finally, I wasn't in it for the money. I'm a hobbyist, not a yuppie. In short, grow up. Not all of us are concerned with profit-margins; programming is recreation for me and I was espousing the fact that I DID make money off ShareWare. In other words, I proved you wrong. Not bad for a slimy pirate, huh? ------------Robert J. Kudla - Pseudo-Freshman Extraordinaire------------- Screw the disclaimers- flame at will!! Itt@RPITSMTS.BITNET And you may ask yourself- How do I work this? FU7Z%mts@itsgw.rpi.edu (I sure as hell do...) kudla@pawl.rpi.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------------
rap@ardent.UUCP (Rob Peck) (02/17/88)
In article <42017@sun.uucp>, cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) writes: > printf("I %s $%d from MacDoodle",(result < 0) ? "lost" : "made",result); > --Chuck McManis I do agree about the marketing concepts mentioned previously - you gotta spread it around wherever possible to let people know it exists. If shareware, in whatever form, turns out badly for some folks, perhaps they'd consider writing a magazine article describing the software and thereby get other people excited about it. A well written article that makes a project (product) sound like a necessary part of someone's toolbox may be accepted by a magazine. The magazine, in turn, may well allow the little 'about-the-author' to contain a plug about how and where to get the software. Since you'd be marketing it yourself, you could offer the stuff at very low cost and still make a buck or two. And the name recognition you'd get is not a bad side effect either. Give 'em something useful in the article (or if on a disk-based magazine, a limited but functional version of the software/tryit-then-buyit), and leave 'em wanting more (and a way to get it). The response you get should be a direct indication of the level of interest in the project (whether by inquiry or by orders), or perhaps a measure of one's own marketing ability in selling the idea. (If it is difficult to interest the public in an idea, it may be equally difficult to interest a distributor/sofware-publisher in having them invest in it). BUT, if YOU like the project and get only a few folks responding, and THEY like it a whole lot as well, then you've made some friends who have common interests. And just having someone to talk to about what interests YOU can mean quite a lot. Rob Peck ...ihnp4!hplabs!ardent!rap
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (02/18/88)
>In short, grow up. Not all of us are concerned with profit-margins; >programming is recreation for me and I was espousing the fact that I >DID make money off ShareWare. In other words, I proved you wrong. Completely missed the point didn't you? If you bought 50 lottery tickets for a dollar and one of them paid off $5 would you say "I made $5 off the Lottery." ? If you would, then your statement about making money off shareware would, in this limited case, be true. However, at the same time you would have invalidated any other english speaking persons interpretation of your statements because of your invalid use of the currently accepted syntax. Some day, you will understand, obviously that day is not today. >Not bad for a slimy pirate, huh? More like typical. --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) (02/18/88)
In article <376@imagine.PAWL.RPI.EDU> kudla@pawl6.pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) writes: > >In short, grow up. Not all of us are concerned with profit-margins; Still in school eh ? Wait till you have a kid that eats $20 bills. >programming is recreation for me and I was espousing the fact that I >DID make money off ShareWare. In other words, I proved you wrong. You call $50 making money ? I've made more washing cars on Saturday. If you want to give softwar away, thats terrific, you're a fine human being. But dont think for a second that you are a commercial success 'cause you made $50 of a piece of software. In the real world, a lot of programmers make that much an hour. -- "My life is changing in so many ways, I don't know who to trust any more" richard@gryphon.CTS.COM {ihnp4!scgvaxd!cadovax, rutgers!marque, codas!ddsw1} gryphon!richard
kudla@pawl22.pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) (02/19/88)
In article <42232@sun.uucp> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Yuppie Pro) writes: > >Completely missed the point didn't you? If you bought 50 lottery tickets >for a dollar and one of them paid off $5 would you say "I made $5 off the >Lottery." ? If you would, then your statement about making money off >shareware would, in this limited case, be true. However, at the same time >you would have invalidated any other english speaking persons interpretation >of your statements because of your invalid use of the currently accepted >syntax. Some day, you will understand, obviously that day is not today. > "Some day, you will understand." Not bloody likely; they've been telling me that for years. The point is this: I invested zero money into my project, and since I had fun doing it, time does NOT equal money. It sort of makes sense to me that if you put no money into a project and get money out of it, you are, indeed, making money. If, on the other hand, YOU were to write some- thing, you who (presumably) makes money from his time spent programming, THEN you would have to turn a profit to "make" money off the program, since you value your time at $50 an hour or whatever you quoted in your first flame. I really think we should continue this in EMAIL; it's probably getting real annoying to people reading it on the Net. I got mail saying this is generally the custom, so I assume it's a good idea. ------------Robert J. Kudla - Pseudo-Freshman Extraordinaire------------- Screw the disclaimers- flame at will!! Itt@RPITSMTS.BITNET And you may ask yourself- How do I work this? FU7Z%mts@itsgw.rpi.edu kudla@pawl.rpi.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------------
kudla@pawl22.pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) (02/20/88)
In article <2604@gryphon.CTS.COM> richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) writes: >Still in school eh ? You know it. > >Wait till you have a kid that eats $20 bills. I won't have a kid. I'm against the concept of "family" in general, and this whining about "We neeeed to eeat toooooooo" is what pisses me off about America's economic system. > >>programming is recreation for me and I was espousing the fact that I >>DID make money off ShareWare. In other words, I proved you wrong. >You call $50 making money ? I've made more washing cars on Saturday. So have I, but you ignored my previous line: programming is recreation for me<<< I don't know about you, but I *ENJOY* programming. I do it for *FUN*. I will CONTINUE to do so in all probability till I am old and grey, but will probably NEVER do it for a living because (1) people like myself pirate commercial software and (2) it ceases to be fun in 9 cases out of ten once you start getting paid to produce. And yes, when I get $50 out of the blue for very little effort, I do call it making money. > >If you want to give softwar away, thats terrific, you're a fine human >being. But dont think for a second that you are a commercial success >'cause you made $50 of a piece of software. I don't consider myself a commercial success. I never said I was; the question was HAVE ANY OF YOU EVER MADE *ANY* MONEY FROM THE SHAREWARE SYSTEM, not DID ANY OF YOU MAKE SIGNIFICANT PROFIT FROM THE SHAREWARE SYSTEM. > >In the real world, a lot of programmers make that much an hour. In the real world, a lot of programmers have deadlines and have to go to work in grey flannel. In the real world, you go in at 9 and out at 5. In the real world, I couldn't have written such a shitty programme and expected to keep my job, let alone make ANY moeny off it. Keep trying... ------------Robert J. Kudla - Pseudo-Freshman Extraordinaire------------- Screw the disclaimers- flame at will!! Itt@RPITSMTS.BITNET And you may ask yourself- How do I work this? FU7Z%mts@itsgw.rpi.edu kudla@pawl.rpi.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------------
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (02/20/88)
This whole bit about shareware has gotten out of hand. Basically, I think
everyone agrees, what is/was at issue here are two concepts :
a) Shareware in lieu of commercialware. Basically, this was what the original
discussion was about. The question being "As an alternative to going the
commercial route, with marketing and shrink wrap, etc, has anyone made
money off shareware?" And the answer is "Very few." Generally, you are
better off trying the commercial route first, because you can always go
shareware later. It is a lot tougher to make it work the other way.
b) Money out of the blue for a neat hack. This is what Robert apparently
was talking about. Basically, you write something because you wanted to
and someone sends you some money because they liked it. There is no one
living off this sort of project but it does give a lot of good strokes
to the author, and maybe they go out and have a steak dinner or something.
They are separate things, the latter I think of the freely distributable
software category. One of the concepts that was bandied about on BIX was
sort of a free software, commercial help thing. Where the binaries for a
program were 'free' to be copied but the manual cost $40 and telephone
help was charged at some fixed rate per hour. This can work on somethings
and the 'experienced' users like it because they don't have to pay 'support'
costs when they don't need any support.
--Chuck McManis
uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com
These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.coy@ssc-vax.UUCP (Stephen B Coy) (02/23/88)
> But dont think for a second that you are a commercial success > 'cause you made $50 of a piece of software. > In the real world, a lot of programmers make that much an hour. I guess this proves it, Boeing Aerospace is not in the real world. Not even close. > "My life is changing in so many ways, I don't know who to trust any more" > richard@gryphon.CTS.COM > {ihnp4!scgvaxd!cadovax, rutgers!marque, codas!ddsw1} gryphon!richard Stephen Coy uw-beaver!ssc-vax!coy
mfs@edison.GE.COM (Pissed Off @ morons, idiots and pirates) (02/23/88)
In article <390@imagine.PAWL.RPI.EDU>, kudla@pawl22.pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) writes: > In article <2604@gryphon.CTS.COM> richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) writes: > >Still in school eh ? > You know it. > >Wait till you have a kid that eats $20 bills. > I won't have a kid. Too bad your mom and dad didn't decide to do likewise. > will probably NEVER do it for a living because (1) people like myself > pirate commercial software. Oh, a self-proclaimed jackass, huh ? > In the real world, a lot of programmers have deadlines and have to > go to work in grey flannel. Gee, I work in a very large place and have never worn anything but blue jeans, nikes and T-shirts (and a sarcastic grin). Guess what bonehead,... We get a kick out of doing software too. Otherwise, we would have become plumbers. Of course, if we had, we would see a whole lot more shit like you. > Keep trying... We will, even though fuckheads like you keep stealing our software. > ------------Robert J. Kudla - Pseudo-Freshman Dipshit-------------------- > Screw the disclaimers- flame at will!! Itt@RPITSMTS.BITNET > And you may ask yourself- How do I work this? FU7Z%mts@itsgw.rpi.edu > kudla@pawl.rpi.edu > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) (02/25/88)
In article <1694@ssc-vax.UUCP> coy@ssc-vax.UUCP (Stephen B Coy) writes: > > >> But dont think for a second that you are a commercial success >> 'cause you made $50 of a piece of software. > >> In the real world, a lot of programmers make that much an hour. > >I guess this proves it, Boeing Aerospace is not in the real world. >Not even close. The last time I did some work for boeing thats how much I got. It's not my fault you can't negotiate. -- "Each morning when I wake up to rise, I'm living in a dreamland" richard@gryphon.CTS.COM {ihnp4!scgvaxd!cadovax, rutgers!marque, codas!ddsw1} gryphon!richard