brianr@tekig4.TEK.COM (Brian Rhodefer) (02/17/88)
Here's a half-baked notion for dealing with the complexity of adding autoconfigurability to otherwise-simple peripheral cards: Imagine an "autoconfig peripheral to end all autoconfig peripherals". This wonder would include (or perhaps consist of) a battery-backed CMOS RAM or EEPROM to hold autoconfig code modules, and the hardware necessary to participate in the Amiga's autoconfig protocol. Disk-based "installation" software would allow one to add new autoconfig code modules into the RAM or EEPROM (or EPROM, for that matter) of the wonder-card, which would thereafter behave as if additional autoconfig hardware had been magically added to the system. Suppose an overeager vendor rushed a product, say a hard-disk controller for example, out to market before they'd added auto-configurability. The startup code for the deficient product isn't a problem; the vendor already distributes it so that their customers can load it onto their workbench floppies. Lucky "Wonder-Peripheral" owners command, "InstallAuto df0:Vendorware" instead, and, voilla! the peripheral now behaves as if it supported autoconfig, after all! Could this approach possibly work? Is it being done? If so, could the vendors get together and decide which peripheral has such a broad appeal that nearly EVERY A2000 owner would be likely to want one, and put the extensible autoconfig system on it, so that other peripherals can be made more cheaply? Maybe an extensible one-time-programmable EPROM-disk card big enough to hold the Workbench disk AND the autoconfig stuff... Naively yours, Brian Rhodefer ....tektronix!tekig4!brianr
root@sbcs.sunysb.edu (SBCS Systems Staff) (02/24/88)
In article <2507@tekig4.TEK.COM>, brianr@tekig4.TEK.COM (Brian Rhodefer) writes: > peripherals". This wonder would include (or perhaps consist of) > a battery-backed CMOS RAM or EEPROM to hold autoconfig code I had proposed this same idea to folks out at Los Gatos - they didn't like it too much. At Ameristar, we wanted to use the idea to provide a user configurable network boot for the Amiga. I personally feel that the idea has a lot of merit - perhaps enough that CA should provide a largish EEPROM on the next cut machine. This way, each vendor that wants autoboot, etc would provide an EEPROM'able driver that could be loaded at user discretion into the machine. 8K EEPROM's are pretty cheap in volume these days.. Rick Spanbauer SUNY/Stony Brook (& Ameristar)
miner@dino.cpe.ulowell.edu (Rich Miner) (02/24/88)
In article <2507@tekig4.TEK.COM> brianr@tekig4.UUCP (Brian Rhodefer) writes: >Here's a half-baked notion for dealing with the complexity of >adding autoconfigurability to otherwise-simple peripheral cards: <Description of half-baked idea deleted> The problem with your idea is that the Amiga auto-config is clean, elegant and easy to implement. Anyone who is technically capable of designing the hard disk controller you give as an example could add the auto-config logic with no problem. CBM provides very clean examples for the auto-config circuit with their docs. The EE students in our lab have designed the auto-configuration glue into several boards; and it all worked the first time. I think encouraging non auto-configuring hardware is as punishable an offense as encouraging non multi-tasking software! -- Rich miner@ulowell.edu 617/452-5000x2693 ULowell CPE Imaging Research Lab
andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) (02/26/88)
In article <985@sbcs.sunysb.edu> root@sbcs.sunysb.edu (SBCS Systems Staff) writes: >In article <2507@tekig4.TEK.COM>, brianr@tekig4.TEK.COM (Brian Rhodefer) writes: >> peripherals". This wonder would include (or perhaps consist of) >> a battery-backed CMOS RAM or EEPROM to hold autoconfig code > > I had proposed this same idea to folks out at Los Gatos - they > didn't like it too much. At Ameristar, we wanted to use the idea > to provide a user configurable network boot for the Amiga. I > personally feel that the idea has a lot of merit - perhaps enough > that CA should provide a largish EEPROM on the next cut machine. That last line was the part they didn't like too much, I bet :-) > This way, each vendor that wants autoboot, etc would provide an > EEPROM'able driver that could be loaded at user discretion into > the machine. 8K EEPROM's are pretty cheap in volume these days.. Not only for cost reasons (every has to pay for it) but I can see fights over who gets to live where in the EEPROM. Lots of protocols to be worked out. Lots of protocols for companies to ignore. Better to put the EEPROM on the board that wants to autoboot. But wait! ROMs are still less expensive... -- andy finkel {ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy Commodore-Amiga, Inc. "Never test for an error condition you don't know how to handle." Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share. I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
peter@nuchat.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (02/28/88)
In article ... miner@dino.cpe.ulowell.edu (Rich Miner) writes: > The EE students in > our lab have designed the auto-configuration glue into several > boards; and it all worked the first time. I think encouraging > non auto-configuring hardware is as punishable an offense as > encouraging non multi-tasking software! How about publishing an autoconfig breadboard kit, then? Something a hobbyist can use to hook up weird stuff like lighting controllers that aren't likely to come out any time soon. -- -- a clone of Peter (have you hugged your wolf today) da Silva `-_-' -- normally ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter U -- Disclaimer: These aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.
ford@kenobi.UUCP (Mike Ditto) (03/03/88)
Posting-Front-End: GNU Emacs 18.41.10 of Fri Oct 2 1987 on kenobi (usg-unix-v) In article <704@nuchat.UUCP> peter@nuchat.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: > How about publishing an autoconfig breadboard kit, then? Something a > hobbyist can use to hook up weird stuff like lighting controllers that > aren't likely to come out any time soon. I'll second that! I sure with I could buy a prototype board that would autoconfig to 64K of decoded address space, buffer the data bus, and give one irq/ack pair (switchable to either interrupt level). 64K is enough address space to interface most projects (EPROM, or shared memory buffers to a coprocessor, or whatever) but not so much that a two-address I/O chip will use up lots of autoconfig space. It would take about five chips to do this, and cost about $50-$100 to produce in medium quantities. I will buy a few if someone makes them... Or, at least, C=A should publish a PC layout and PAL equations for such a thing. -=] Ford [=- "Well, he didn't know what to do, so (In Real Life: Mike Ditto) he decided to look at the government, ford%kenobi@crash.CTS.COM to see what they did, and scale it ...!sdcsvax!crash!kenobi!ford down and run his life that way." -- Laurie Anderson
terry@wsccs.UUCP (terry) (03/04/88)
In article <1936@dino.cpe.ulowell.edu>, Rich Miner writes: > The EE students in > our lab have designed the auto-configuration glue into several > boards; and it all worked the first time. I think encouraging > non auto-configuring hardware is as punishable an offense as > encouraging non multi-tasking software! Good. Mail the schematics to us and we'll do the same. Since no large software or hardware developer into money (There are some who are not) has decided to go into stuff for the Amiga as their premeire line, it is up to the students and little guys to go off an build/write nifty toys. While it is all fine and dandy to go off and flame about not being able to understand why people do not take the time to put all the niceties into Amiga versions of their products (Amiga-ize them, as it were), you totally ignore the facts: 1) A small company can _not_ afford to pay a programmer for a year write something for the Amiga, if it is to be a "break-in" to that market. This explains the lack of "Turbo-C" and "Turbo- Pascal" for the Amiga. Bordland can not afford to go off and blow a lot of time/investment into what is obviously a small- return market (compared to DOS). 2) A small company can not afford to go out and blow 3 or 4 motherboards making a hard-drive interface. Commodore is not giving the kind of support Apple gives to it's developers, hardware _and_ software. 3) A large company is not willing to enter what is basically a small marketplace. Hence no Western-Digital controllers for the Amiga. 4) A large company is not willing to invest time/money into providing software for a product which is not advertized. Face it, Commodore does not advertise. If they do, I haven't seen it (and I get most of the business/programmer mainstream magazines), so it isn't really advertising. I guess they figured that, since their stupid-commercials-that-made-you-puke-due-to- their-submoronic-estimate-of-your-IQ tv ads didn't work, advertising isn't worth it. (BTW: What *did* scare that guy so badly his hair turned white? Was it Commodores marketing department?) This is why a programmer-type at Micro-soft told me they hadn't ported Xenix... no built-in market/advertising channels. This basically leaves the people who hack on their own time and the small companies which have been informed by users how to do things, so they don't have to find out themselves over a period of 6 months how to do them... a small company can not make a return-over-a-long-time investment. Which brings us back to your flame. I have yet to see you post (or anyone else, for that matter) schematics or code for anything resembling a "helping-hand" to developers. While I am not a hardware developer, it does occur to me that a computer-readable hard-drive schematic posted here would encourage a small company to offer a fairly cheap hard-drive interface (I think almost zero developement cost would be an incentive for lower prices). For the touted ease with which you purported do these things, I have yet to recognize your name from and ad for a reasonably priced anything. If "it all worked the first time" is a correct statement, either share your skill or inform us of where to acquire some of our own... Commodore is certainly no help. It took some pirates to figure out 11k boot blocks, and they can afford a heck of a lot more time than any company expecting to stay in business for any extended period of time. I think taunting people who need to feed their faces prior to a 18 month product-works-to-testing-to-market turnaround "is as punishable an offense as encouraging non multi-tasking software". Students have more time to expend on these things. At _least_ bring your wonderously easily done projects to market, if nothing else. I think Commodore would enjoy finding out that a 'simple' DMA interface is possible; they hem-and-haw every time I ask them when theirs is due out. Also: Commodore, has it occured to you that Apple's success is due primarily to their willingness to give hardware to schools? I was told to my face by one of your representatives that you don't give an educational discount (I have an entire user group who heard it too), and he's one of your big 10. What the hell, he told us 1.3 definitely wouldn't need a ROM update either, and that he'd have techinical people at the next meeting (they didn't show), and that the 4 registered developers there would get their developer's kit updates "real soon". terry@wsccs PS: One of the guys I work with just bought a 68ns 30 meg hard drive with controller for his PC for $265.00 All standard disclaimers apply, as I am going to get *chewed* for this one...
zofka@cernvax.UUCP (zofka) (03/07/88)
A scheme for an autoconfig card of 64k exists in the A500/A2000 hardware manual... For 40$ you can get it to Commodore !!! But, I'm currently trying to install this protocol on my card and it's not so easy... Do you ever try to understand the autoconfig protocol ? Not a piece of cake ! Milan P.S. excuse my so bad english.. I only write (and speak) french correctly!
andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) (03/10/88)
In article <257@wsccs.UUCP> terry@wsccs.UUCP (terry) writes: > 2) A small company can not afford to go out and blow 3 or 4 > motherboards making a hard-drive interface. Commodore is > not giving the kind of support Apple gives to it's developers, > hardware _and_ software. We don't ask for a business plan before we sign you up to a developer program either :-) > > 3) A large company is not willing to enter what is basically a > small marketplace. Hence no Western-Digital controllers for > the Amiga. > > 4) A large company is not willing to invest time/money into > providing software for a product which is not advertized. Possibly you missed the ads in Time, and other mags ? Or the ones on TV about the Amiga ? > why a programmer-type at Micro-soft told me they hadn't ported > Xenix... no built-in market/advertising channels. This sounds unlikely as a reason, somehow. Perhaps there were other factors ? >occur to me that a computer-readable hard-drive schematic posted here would >encourage a small company to offer a fairly cheap hard-drive interface (I >think almost zero developement cost would be an incentive for lower prices). > > For the touted ease with which you purported do these things, I have >yet to recognize your name from and ad for a reasonably priced anything. If >"it all worked the first time" is a correct statement, either share your skill >or inform us of where to acquire some of our own... Commodore is certainly no >help. It took some pirates to figure out 11k boot blocks, and they can afford 11K of data into the 1K a bootblock takes up ? That is a trick! BTW, hasn't EA been using custom boot blocks for a long time ? >projects to market, if nothing else. I think Commodore would enjoy finding >out that a 'simple' DMA interface is possible; they hem-and-haw every time I >ask them when theirs is due out. The 2090 will ship in...pardon me ? It shipped sometime last year ? Oh. Never Mind... (Yes, the 2090 has a DMA interface, and has been out for awhile) > > Also: Commodore, has it occured to you that Apple's success is due >primarily to their willingness to give hardware to schools? I was told to >my face by one of your representatives that you don't give an educational >discount Name names. None of this 'rep who wandered by , who we never heard of and you never did either' If we have a rep giving out wrong info, please let us know! (To explore educational discounts, things like that, have a rep from your school call the Commodore Educational Marketing dept at West Chester. I think there is a program in place.) >(I have an entire user group who heard it too), and he's one of your >big 10. What the hell, he told us 1.3 definitely wouldn't need a ROM update >either, and that he'd have techinical people at the next meeting (they didn't >show), Well, he's mostly right about that. The major enhancements are on Workbench. Things like the FastFileSystem, new printers, etc. Recoverable ramdisk. All on Workbench. The only thing the new Kickstart rom gives you is the ability to boot from a ROM-Driver equipped device. and that the 4 registered developers there would get their developer's >kit updates "real soon". I'm not sure what you mean by developer kit update. I'm pretty sure he didn't either. Registered developers have a phone number they can call to find out what happened to their orders, if something's wrong. -- andy finkel {ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy Commodore-Amiga, Inc. "Never test for an error condition you don't know how to handle." Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share. I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
terry@wsccs.UUCP (terry) (03/15/88)
In article <3448@cbmvax.UUCP>, andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) writes: } In article <257@wsccs.UUCP> I write: } > 2) A small company can not afford to go out and blow 3 or 4 } > motherboards making a hard-drive interface. Commodore is } > not giving the kind of support Apple gives to it's developers, } > hardware _and_ software. } We don't ask for a business plan before we sign you up to a } developer program either :-) Better to post a business plan (you had better have one anyway, if you intend to stay in business) than to not get hardware or software support. } > 3) A large company is not willing to enter what is basically a } > small marketplace. Hence no Western-Digital controllers for } > the Amiga. } > 4) A large company is not willing to invest time/money into } > providing software for a product which is not advertized. } Possibly you missed the ads in Time, and other mags ? Or the ones } on TV about the Amiga ? That answers point #4. What about point #3? Anyway, that is _not_ an answer. I am the type of person who buys an Amiga. I did not see the ads. While it would be idiotic to try to point to this and say "the type of person who buys an Amiga is not seeing the ads", I think the large number of postings by people who already own an Amiga, and referring to CLtd not advertising, are a good indication that this is true. } > why a programmer-type at Micro-soft told me they hadn't ported } > Xenix... no built-in market/advertising channels. } } This sounds unlikely as a reason, somehow. Perhaps there were other } factors ? You have truncated me slightly out of context, here, but I will answer anyway: No, there were not other reasons. The reason a software vendor advertises with a picture of a piece of equipment, rather that just a screen shot, is that it buys him (or is perceived to buy him) recognition and a closer look via the old "hey! that's _my_ machine, there!" If the machine is not recognizeable, the software certainly won't be. If there were other factors, they would probably be those related to support of the product by Commodore, or support for producing the product in the first place. In general it seems that Microsoft likes to reach an OEM agreement; Consider the Tandy Xenix's and SCO Xenix, both of which are OEM'ed versions of Microsoft Xenix for those boxes, but also both of which far out-sell Microsoft's entry into the same markets. Look at DOS! Would Commodore be willing to sell/support Xenixfor the Amiga? Would people trust it [the Xenix] if they did? } >occur to me that a computer-readable hard-drive schematic posted here would } >encourage a small company to offer a fairly cheap hard-drive interface (I } >think almost zero developement cost would be an incentive for lower prices). } > } > For the touted ease with which you purported do these things, I have } >yet to recognize your name from and ad for a reasonably priced anything. If } >"it all worked the first time" is a correct statement, either share your skill } >or inform us of where to acquire some of our own... Commodore is certainly no } >help. It took some pirates to figure out 11k boot blocks, and they can } >afford } } 11K of data into the 1K a bootblock takes up ? That is a trick! I will try to get a copy of one by Red Sector or The Kent Team or SCA, and mail it to you, if you like. Well? } BTW, hasn't EA been using custom boot blocks for a long time ? Yes. How large? } >projects to market, if nothing else. I think Commodore would enjoy finding } >out that a 'simple' DMA interface is possible; they hem-and-haw every time I } >ask them when theirs is due out. } } The 2090 will ship in...pardon me ? It shipped sometime last year ? } Oh. Never Mind... } (Yes, the 2090 has a DMA interface, and has been out for awhile) Great. Where are schematics which are released for anyone to incorporte into their products so that my next 20 Meg drive & controller costs me the same as what a 20 Meg drive costs an IBM owner? How do I attach one to my 500 or 1000? IBM seems to make money by charging you for each power cable... Commodore seems to make it by charging you a lot for what you get... admittedly, the Amiga is a better machine, in most respects, than a PC, but I can get a PC with 640K and a 20 Meg hard-drive and controller and an EGA and a color monitor for less that $1100, 1/2 of what it would cost for an Amiga with the same configuration. Admittedly, I would be getting less for my money, but _not_ $1100 less! } > Also: Commodore, has it occured to you that Apple's success is due } >primarily to their willingness to give hardware to schools? I was told to } >my face by one of your representatives that you don't give an educational } >discount } } Name names. None of this 'rep who wandered by , who we never heard } of and you never did either' If we have a rep giving out wrong } info, please let us know! The regional sales rep. for the intermountain West, including Utah. I will *NOT* publicly post names, thereby opening myself up for a defamation of character suit by airing his dirty laundry in public. There are only 10 of them, and only one of them works Utah... figure it out. } (To explore educational discounts, things like that, have a } rep from your school call the Commodore Educational Marketing dept } at West Chester. I think there is a program in place.) You are referencing something I said which you, again, truncated and took out of context. I was complaining that a _discount_ was *all* CLtd would do... Apple _gives_ hardware and software to schools. I am not currently enrolled in any school; I get my news here. I am speaking of schools in general. You seem to have switched from the subject to marketing mode: "explore ... discounts". } The only thing the new Kickstart rom gives you is the ability to boot } from a ROM-Driver equipped device. So he was full of it. There IS a new Kickstart. Is it only ROM, or will 1000 owners be able to use it too? Is it going to cost the users of the older stuff more than distribution costs, just like the last one (1.1 to 1.2) did? } >and that the 4 registered developers there would get their developer's } >kit updates "real soon". } I'm not sure what you mean by developer kit update. I'm pretty } sure he didn't either. Obviously, he didn't. The "kit" of which I speak is simply some documentation and software; basically, how to do a cold-capture of the machine, and a number of other things Commodore hasn't seemed to make public. Also, some documentation specific to the 2000 and 500 and the 1.2 ROMs, which are NOT documented in the Addison-Wesly(sp?) books. } Registered developers have a phone number } they can call to find out what happened to their orders, if something's wrong. They called, en-masse. "We'll call you back" or "It's in the mail" were the most common answers. The regional rep. was asked about it at the user-group meeting not to harrass him or to show his ignorance of a subject which he should not be expected to be informed, but to talk to _someone_ with some influence at CLtd, in hopes of getting their promised info/software. | Terry Lambert UUCP: ...{ decvax, ihnp4 } | | @ Century Software or : ...utah-cs!uplherc!sp7040!obie!wsccs!terry | | SLC, Utah | | These opinions are not my companies, but if you find them | | useful, send a $20.00 donation to Brisbane Australia... | | 'There are monkey boys in the facility. Do not be alarmed; you are secure' |
jesup@pawl16.pawl.rpi.edu (Randell E. Jesup) (03/20/88)
In article <322@wsccs.UUCP> terry@wsccs.UUCP (terry) writes: >who buys an Amiga is not seeing the ads", I think the large number of postings >by people who already own an Amiga, and referring to CLtd not advertising, are Uh, where did you get the impression that 'CLtd' makes amigas? Last I heard, CLtd was a HD, etc supplier for the Amiga. Maybe you meant to say 'Commodore'? Are you SURE you were at a Amiga users group? 1/2 :-) (Note that in this message, and another, he often referred to the producer of the amiga as 'CLtd'.) >the same markets. Look at DOS! Would Commodore be willing to sell/support >Xenixfor the Amiga? Would people trust it [the Xenix] if they did? Excuse me, but Commodore just announced an Amiga running System V Release 3 (at the hannover show). >} 11K of data into the 1K a bootblock takes up ? That is a trick! > I will try to get a copy of one by Red Sector or The Kent Team or >SCA, and mail it to you, if you like. Well? You're confused. By definition, a boot 'block' is 1K (2 sectors). Sure, one could write a bootblock to load in a larger program, but that is not an 11k bootblock. BTW, maybe 11k stuck in your head, because that's the size of a track. >} BTW, hasn't EA been using custom boot blocks for a long time ? > Yes. How large? 1K. Suprise. >} The 2090 will ship in...pardon me ? It shipped sometime last year ? >} Oh. Never Mind... >} (Yes, the 2090 has a DMA interface, and has been out for awhile) > Great. Where are schematics which are released for anyone to >incorporte into their products so that my next 20 Meg drive & controller costs >me the same as what a 20 Meg drive costs an IBM owner? How do I attach one >to my 500 or 1000? Sure, Commodore should design every product that's useful, then give away all the plans to everyone else. Right. All the information is there, and a number of companies have DMA harddrives out. (In fact, commodore licensed the design and a custom chip to the first DMA HD maker out there, Byte by Byte.) The reason PC harddisks are cheap is volume, and the fact that most use st506 drives (old tech), whereas more Amiga and Mac HDs are SCSI. Take a look how much Mac people pay for HDs, we're cheap by comparison. >IBM makes it's money by charging for the >cable... Commodore seems to make it by charging you a lot for what you get... Sounds OK to me. >admittedly, the Amiga is a better machine, in most respects, than a PC, but >I can get a PC with 640K and a 20 Meg hard-drive and controller and an EGA and >a color monitor for less that $1100 Uh, didn't IBM discontinue the PC ages ago? (And the XT, and the AT) I think you mean a cheap Taiwanese PC clone, by mail order. IBM couldn't make money in the lower half of the market. > The regional sales rep. for the intermountain West, including Utah. I >will *NOT* publicly post names, thereby opening myself up for a defamation of >character suit by airing his dirty laundry in public. There are only 10 of >them, and only one of them works Utah... figure it out. Truth is a valid defense against libel/whatever. Also, saying his name doesn't matter if you identify him (as you did). >} (To explore educational discounts, things like that, have a >} rep from your school call the Commodore Educational Marketing dept >} at West Chester. I think there is a program in place.) > > You are referencing something I said which you, again, truncated and >took out of context. I was complaining that a _discount_ was *all* CLtd >would do... Apple _gives_ hardware and software to schools. Apple gives obsolete, cheap computers to schools in return for immmense tax writeoffs (I think that's why they kept the price of an Apple II so high, so they could get bigger writeoffs when they gave away their production.) Is there something wrong about giving discounts? >} The only thing the new Kickstart rom gives you is the ability to boot >} from a ROM-Driver equipped device. > > So he was full of it. There IS a new Kickstart. Is it only ROM, or >will 1000 owners be able to use it too? Is it going to cost the users of the >older stuff more than distribution costs, just like the last one (1.1 to 1.2) >did? Here we go again. Yes, it will be available to A1000 owners (actually easier for them), and NO, the kickstart has NOTHING new other than HD/etc boot - not even bug fixes. 1.4 will be very different, big ROM changes, but that's a ways off. I would assume it will be cheap again. > Obviously, he didn't. The "kit" of which I speak is simply some >documentation and software; basically, how to do a cold-capture of the machine, >and a number of other things Commodore hasn't seemed to make public. Also, >some documentation specific to the 2000 and 500 and the 1.2 ROMs, which are NOT >documented in the Addison-Wesly(sp?) books. Cold-capture? You want Commodore to give out things that are kept non-documented (for a reason - because they WILL change in the future, and therefor are not reliable for future versions of the OS/hardware.) 2000, 500, and 1.2? Either you mean the A2000/A500 technical manual (hardware stuff only), or the 1.2 Autodocs, which ALL registered developers get (I got mine over a year ago, haven't heard of ANYONE who didn't.) Are you certain these people are currently registered developers, not from the old "anyone who says they are is a developer" program? It's still easy to become registered, but you had to reregister about a year ago. >} Registered developers have a phone number >} they can call to find out what happened to their orders, if something's wrong. > They called, en-masse. "We'll call you back" or "It's in the mail" >were the most common answers. Once again, are you sure this was Commodore Amiga Technical Support (CATS)? Not the generic user-support line? DISCLAIMER: I do not work for Commodore, I'm just a developer. // Randell Jesup Lunge Software Development // Dedicated Amiga Programmer 13 Frear Ave, Troy, NY 12180 \\// beowulf!lunge!jesup@steinmetz.UUCP (518) 272-2942 \/ (uunet!steinmetz!beowulf!lunge!jesup) BIX: rjesup (-: The Few, The Proud, The Architects of the RPM40 40MIPS CMOS Micro :-)
miner@dino.ulowell.edu (Rich Miner) (03/21/88)
Sorry I did not respond and FLAME this person early, it sliped by: *FLAME ON* In article <257@wsccs.UUCP> terry@wsccs.UUCP (terry) writes: >In article <1936@dino.cpe.ulowell.edu>, Rich Miner writes: >> The EE students in our lab have designed the auto-configuration glue >> into several boards; and it all worked the first time. > Good. Mail the schematics to us and we'll do the same. Should I send you the schematics to a 35MIPs coprocessor board that we spent over 2 man years developing and writing software for? If you could not figure out CBM's example schematics, what good will our designs do you? > 2) A small company can not afford to go out and blow 3 or 4 > motherboards making a hard-drive interface. If the company can't understand CBM's autoconfig docs, I don't want their hard drive controller. Have you looked at there docs and compared them to what Apple, Apollo, IBM and others provide? > Commodore is not giving the kind of support Apple gives to it's > developers, hardware _and_ software. BULL! My lab _is_ certified as an Apple developer. The support Apple gives is _not_ up to what CBM has. Apple has more people and fancier news letters, yet it is harder to find answers! Look at the support on usenet and BIX, then compare the number of people each group has supporting these efforts. The NuBus breadboards are third party not provided by Apple. > Which brings us back to your flame. I have yet to see you post >(or anyone else, for that matter) schematics or code for anything resembling >a "helping-hand" to developers. We are trying to earn a living, what makes you think I should post the schematics to our designs? We are more then willing to help people, and have in the past. Ask a technical question, I can't respond to flames. Post/send a note or give me a call, thats why the number is in my .signature. > While I am not a hardware developer, Then what gives you right to state CBM's docs are not to adequate for a competent hardware developer to use? >...a computer-readable hard-drive schematic posted here would.... >...be an incentive for lower prices). What about the person that encurred the development costs? What are his incentives for giving away his development effort? >For the touted ease with which you purported do these things, I have >yet to recognize your name from and ad for a reasonably priced anything. How about articles in Byte, Amiga World, Amazing computing Commodore Magazine, EE times, and ESD Magazine. We have been in CBM's booth at NCGA(march 87), SIGGRAPH-87, and COMDEX. The Coprocessor has been purchased by research groups such as Lawrence Livermore Labs and is being used in R&D efforts that require high performance imaging for medical and other uses. We are currently building a 1Kx800x10bit/pixel TMS34010 based graphics card and digitizer that will be licensed to others to market, We are not a marketing group, our money funds research and development, not advertizing. > If "it all worked the first time" is a correct statement, either share > your skill or inform us of where to acquire some of our own... We used no magic, state a concrete problem you have with the material provided by CBM and I am sure we or CATS can help. > I think taunting people who need to feed their faces prior to a 18 >month product-works-to-testing-to-market turnaround "is as punishable an >offense as encouraging non multi-tasking software". Students have more time >to expend on these things. At _least_ bring your wonderously easily done >projects to market, if nothing else. Try 5 months for one EE student working part time to learn the Amiga and coprocessor chips, design and wire wrap the first proto-type with autoconfig. This was with Zorro I and prior to the nice bound technical manual which is now available. >All standard disclaimers apply, as I am going to get *chewed* for this one... Well next time lets do this via mail first so you can have your facts straight and I don't have to feel like I am on trial. **flame off.-- Rich miner@ulowell.edu 617/452-5000x2693 ULowell CPE Imaging Research Lab
peter@nuchat.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (03/23/88)
I'd just like to note that I am *not* a registered developer, but I have still received excellent support from Commodore via their normal user support numbers. I may have a lingering bad taste in my mouth from the bad old pre-Amiga days (when Jack was king, I guess), but I have no complaints with C= today. A *very* pleasant surprise, I might add. -- -- a clone of Peter (have you hugged your wolf today) da Silva `-_-' -- normally ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter U -- Disclaimer: These aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (03/25/88)
in article <322@wsccs.UUCP>, terry@wsccs.UUCP (terry) says: > Keywords: autoconfig hobby > Summary: Nope. > } We don't ask for a business plan before we sign you up to a > } developer program either :-) > Better to post a business plan (you had better have one anyway, if you > intend to stay in business) than to not get hardware or software support. Developers do get software and hardware support. They don't get free hardware and all the source code to our software just for signing up as a Developer, but they get hardware discounts, first crack at using and developing for new hardware, first crack at new system software before it's released, and all us similing folk in Engineering and CATS to ask questions of. > } > why a programmer-type at Micro-soft told me they hadn't ported > } > Xenix... no built-in market/advertising channels. > } > } This sounds unlikely as a reason, somehow. Perhaps there were other > } factors ? > > You have truncated me slightly out of context, here, but I will > answer anyway: No, there were not other reasons. I can think of one very simple reason. There's no MMU in the Amiga. Any reasonable UNIX clone on a 68000 system would require one. So either you end up with a very bad Xenix port or a Xenix port that will only run on the few machines that currently have the Amiga A2620 card in them (most of these are in Germany at the CeBit show right now). There may be a need for a bad multitasking operating system in the PC, Mac, or Atari markets. There isn't in the Amiga market, we already have a good one that comes free with each computer. But I'm sure the reason is the MMU, otherwise Xenix would already be on the Macintosh. > Would Commodore be willing to sell/support Xenix for the Amiga? Would > people trust it [the Xenix] if they did? I don't trust Xenix now. Commodore has no reason to sell Xenix on an Amiga. We are, however, planning to sell AT&T UNIX V.3 (eg, the real thing) for use the the A2620 board. > So he was full of it. There IS a new Kickstart. Is it only ROM, or > will 1000 owners be able to use it too? Is it going to cost the users of the > older stuff more than distribution costs, just like the last one (1.1 to 1.2) > did? Ask MicroSoft how much they charge for Xenix or MS-DOS upgrades. Or Lotus for 1-2-3 upgrades. $14.95 wasn't an outrageous price to pay for the 1.1 to 1.2 upgrade, and the 1.2 to 1.3 upgrade will certainly be in the same price range. Heck, I paid $75.00 for my Lattice V3.03 to V4.00 upgrade; certainly worth the price, but probably not as generally useful to me as my 1.2 upgrade. If you're going to argue that Commodore's not presenting a professional image, and at the same time complain about an upgrade that costs mere pocket change, folks are going to start wondering what you're smoking there. > | Terry Lambert UUCP: ...{ decvax, ihnp4 } -- Dave Haynie "The B2000 Guy" Commodore-Amiga "The Crew That Never Rests" {ihnp4|uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: D-DAVE H BIX: hazy "I can't relax, 'cause I'm a Boinger!"